Search forums

Forums

Export thread

Can we please stop this "is she a REAL geek lol" bullshit?

Jul 27, 2012#1

HowDroll

Before my rant, some context, for those of you have been living in caves:

1) Journalist questions Felicia Day's "street cred"
2) Internet explodes
3) Asshole on CNN weighs in, says Felicia Day is legit but lambasts girls (including Frag Dolls and Olivia Munn) "pretending to be geeks for attention." (Literally, the first line of article: "There is a growing chorus of frustration in the geek community with - and there's no other way to put this - pretty girls pretending to be geeks for attention.")
4) Internet explodes some more

The fact that these conversations are even happening says more than the conversations themselves ever could.

Enough with this trying to evaluate whether a girl is a "real geek" or a "booth babe" or somewhere in between. Seriously. It demeans everyone involved. Geekdom is not some super-exclusive club with minimum criteria for membership (but only if you have a vagina, of course. I have yet to hear a conversation about how a guy isn't a real geek and is only pretending to "satisfy his hollow ego.") If anything, it's ironic as hell that a group that has historically been defined by its outsider status is now trying to figure out whether certain women are good enough to sit at the cool kids' table.

Are there women (and men, for that matter) who pretend to be something they're not for attention? Yup. But so what? Best case scenario, they'll look like assholes if it becomes obvious that they don't know what the hell they're talking about. (Actually, scratch that -- best case scenario, they'll discover new interests and want to get more involved in the community.) Worst case scenario, we all get to see some nice boobies. (I can't for the life of me understand why anyone is bitching about roving gangs of attractive women, except perhaps for a latent inferiority complex from when the pretty popular girl said something mean back in high school. If someone offered me a few hundred bucks to stand around in heels and smile, I'd sure as hell be a booth babe too.)

So, seriously, if a girl says she's a gamer but only plays World of Warcraft/Call of Duty/Wii/etc. -- don't give her shit about because you are LOL SUPERIOR. Take it as an opportunity to share your interests. Everyone has to start somewhere, and I know a few girls that grew up pursuing more traditional female interests and are just now starting to get into gaming/fantasy/anime/etc.

For the record, I don't see much of this going on with the male members of this forum -- although that may be because most, if not all, of the females here are deeply entrenched in the geek community -- but I've had my jimmies rustled by this shit over the last few days and wanted to rant about it. With the traditional portrayal/objectification of women in geek media, especially comics, anime, and video games, we have enough hurdles to overcome; let's stop with the twenty questions to make sure we're "geek enough."

Jul 27, 2012#2

Dave

I'm probably less of a geek than some of the girls I've met. I've also met some who were more of the "tee hee! I'm such a geek!" brand. It's very easy to tell them apart.

Jul 27, 2012#3

Ravenpoe

These are just neckbeards trying to find a reason why Olivia Munn won't return their cheeto stained fan mail.

Jul 27, 2012#4

Piotyr

I'm not even sure it's a gender thing so much as a "geek superiority" thing. Nothing means more to some nerds/geeks as much as how their geek e-peen measures up to other presumed nerds.

Jul 27, 2012#5

blotsfan

Maybe women should just be banned from SDCC, Superhero movies, roleplaying, and the internet (other than pinterest of course).

Jul 27, 2012#6

Dei

But then who will play the healers in MMOS blotsfan?!

Jul 27, 2012#7

blotsfan

Men pretending to be women? Hopefully the rest of the geeks will be so overcome by a girl that they don't realize it can't happen because its illegal.

Jul 27, 2012#8

Gusto

Geeks/nerds/gamers can be some of the most entitled people ever, and prone to obnoxiousness.

Jul 27, 2012#9

Piotyr

Gusto said:
Geeks/nerds/gamers can be some of the most entitled people ever, and prone to obnoxiousness.

I mean...do you read the threads on this forum?

Jul 27, 2012#10

sixpackshaker

So is there agreement that geeks are the worst people?

Jul 27, 2012#11

PatrThom

Can we stop it? No. There's always going to be a pecking order, and that means there are always going to be those who will take whatever opportunity they can get to climb their ladder, even (or especially) at the expense or on the backs of others. The ones who don't screw up will be rewarded with position and prestige, the ones who fail will be fodder for the rest.

--Patrick

Jul 27, 2012#12

Dei

I actually make it a point to not mention I'm a girl in MMOs, unless I'm in raiding guild in which I need to use vent, and thus my secret is automatically blown.

Because trolls lol.

Jul 27, 2012#13

sixpackshaker

Dei said:
I actually make it a point to not mention I'm a girl in MMOs, unless I'm in raiding guild in which I need to use vent, and thus my secret is automatically blown. Because trolls lol.

Sounds like you need to quit playing for the Horde then...

Jul 27, 2012#14

Dei

sixpackshaker said:
Sounds like you need to quit playing for the Horde then...

I play on both sides, Alliance is usually worse. Just sayin. =/

Jul 27, 2012#15

sixpackshaker

It's just a troll joke. =\

Jul 27, 2012#16

Dei

This is what happens when my body randomly decides I only need 4 hours of sleep.

Jul 27, 2012#17

Bubble181

I'll answer that question, Droll, if you answer me another one.

Why/how is it, that geek girls only seem to come in two varieties? The same is, up to a point, true for male geeks as well, but I find it much more pronounced in women. You have the ugly-fat-weat-stained-don't-want-to-go-near-with-a-ten-foot-pole type (who are usually awesome and very caring and fun), and you get the so-hot-it's-not-fair-they'-re-also-smart variety (who, in the case of those I know, when nerd, also turn out to be nice. Dammit! I do know why I always crush on geek girls, admittedly, it seems to be 90% of women who are smart, intelligent and hot at the same time are geeks

)

Anyway, besides the entitlement and idiocy of the masses, I think there's also another thing atp lay here - mostly unconscious. Men (a lot of, but not all, women too) want/need a hobby where they can "be themselves". Be it football, coin collecting, D&D, a rock band, going to war or whatever - men have always had/gone and looked for hobbies where they're not under watch of their significant other and/or being judged by people of the other gender. I think a lot of male geeks feel threatened by women coming to their hobby. Female sports fans are often met with similar issues.

Jul 27, 2012#18

strawman

My thoughts largely mirror John Scalzi's on the matter:

http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/07/26/who-gets-to-be-a-geek-anyone-who-wants-to-be/

Here's an excerpt:

Who gets to be a geek?

Anyone who wants to be, any way they want to be one.

Geekdom is a nation with open borders. There are many affiliations and many doors into it. There are lit geeks, media geeks, comics geeks, anime and manga geeks. There are LARPers, cosplayers, furries, filkers, crafters, gamers and tabletoppers. There are goths and horror geeks and steampunkers and academics. There are nerd rockers and writers and artists and actors and fans. Some people love only one thing. Some people flit between fandoms. Some people are positively poly in their geek enthusiasms. Some people have been in geekdom since before they knew they were geeks. Some people are n00bs, trying out an aspect of geekdom to see if it fits. If it does, great. If it doesn’t then at least they tried it.

Many people believe geekdom is defined by a love of a thing, but I think — and my experience of geekdom bears on this thinking — that the true sign of a geek is a delight in sharing a thing. It’s the major difference between a geek and a hipster, you know: When a hipster sees someone else grooving on the thing they love, their reaction is to say “Oh, crap, now the wrong people like the thing I love.” When a geek sees someone else grooving on the thing they love, their reaction is to say “ZOMG YOU LOVE WHAT I LOVE COME WITH ME AND LET US LOVE IT TOGETHER.”

Any jerk can love a thing. It’s the sharing that makes geekdom awesome.

Jul 27, 2012#19

Dei

Bubble181 said:
I'll answer that question, Droll, if you answer me another one.

Why/how is it, that geek girls only seem to come in two varieties? The same is, up to a point, true for male geeks as well, but I find it much more pronounced in women. You have the ugly-fat-weat-stained-don't-want-to-go-near-with-a-ten-foot-pole type (who are usually awesome and very caring and fun), and you get the so-hot-it's-not-fair-they'-re-also-smart variety (who, in the case of those I know, when nerd, also turn out to be nice. Dammit! I don know why I always crush on geek girls, admittedly, it seems to be 90% of women who are smart, intelligent and hot at the same time are geeks )

I reject this statement as false. Very false. Extremely false.

Jul 27, 2012#20

Charlie Don't Surf

Misogyny sucks

Jul 27, 2012#21

Bubble181

Dei said:
I reject this statement as false. Very false. Extremely false.

Fair enough, I haven't really given it a lot of thought so I may very well be wrong. But, what statement? I make several in that post :confused:

Jul 27, 2012#22

Dei

Bubble181 said:
Fair enough, I haven't really given it a lot of thought so I may very well be wrong. But, what statement? I make several in that post

I only quoted the one I meant.

Jul 27, 2012#23

HowDroll

PatrThom said:
Can we stop it? No. There's always going to be a pecking order, and that means there are always going to be those who will take whatever opportunity they can get to climb their ladder, even (or especially) at the expense or on the backs of others. The ones who don't screw up will be rewarded with position and prestige, the ones who fail will be fodder for the rest.

--Patrick

But you do at least realize how fucking stupid this is, right? Especially when someone is targeted for her gender?

Dei said:
I reject this statement as false. Very false. Extremely false.

Ditto. I've met enough geeks of both genders that fall all over the attractiveness spectrum to disagree with this statement as well.

Jul 27, 2012#24

strawman

Also, many geeks categorize things. So, you know, complaining about categorization in a club of people who often categorize things seems funny.

Jul 27, 2012#25

Bubble181

Dei said:
I only quoted the one I meant.

So....Is it
a) "Most geek girls I know are smart"
b) "Most geek girls I know are cute"
c) "Most geek girls I know are nice"
d) "Most geek girls I know fin into one of these two, very broad, categories"
e) "The same is mostly true for men"
f) "To my personal taste, this is more pronounced in women"
g) "I usually crush on geek girls"
h) "Some geek girls I know are butt-ugly, but still nice once you get to know them
or
i) yet something else ?

Those are all statements made in the quoted bit.

Jul 27, 2012#26

Piotyr

Hell, even the term "geek girl" is unnecessarily categorizing.

Jul 27, 2012#27

strawman

I think the problem, bubble, is that your post appears to loosely link physical characteristics, such as attractiveness, with geek proficiency or cred.

Most people agree that physical characteristics have little to do with their character, qualities, and values, and so discussing them in the same topic as though the physical characteristics have any bearing on the discussion is probably going to be met with resistance.

Jul 27, 2012#28

Bubble181

stienman said:
I think the problem, bubble, is that your post appears to loosely link physical characteristics, such as attractiveness, with geek proficiency or cred.

Most people agree that physical characteristics have little to do with their character, qualities, and values, and so discussing them in the same topic as though the physical characteristics have any bearing on the discussion is probably going to be met with resistance.

Ah. Fair enough. Let me state very clearly, then, that I do not mean to imply that geek cred (or any other personality characteristic) is intrinsically linked to any physical characteristic*. Note, by the way, that I was talking about gender, not sex. Also, I'm a strong believer that beauty is subjective. Perhaps it is my taste in women which outlines itself by my perception of female geeks.

I did not mean to imply, at all, that better-looking people are more or less likely to be "real" geeks - I didn't even touch the subject of who a "real" geek is, because I think the question is meaningless.

*there are specific personality traits more commonly found in people who are better-looking by their cultural standards; however, these are, according to any study I've ever read about them, purely taught and sort of impressed upon them from without. High self-esteem, for example, is more often found in people who are considered good looking in their society; probably because other people like looking at good-looking things and are therefore more likely to listen to what a good-looking person has to say than an ugly one. This sort of thing has been found across cultures, with varying beauty ideals. It's not at all what I'm talking about, except perhaps that, in my personal experience, good-looking nerds tend to be more pleasant and less bitchy/haughty/whatever than good-looking non-nerds. That's not limited to women, though.

Jul 27, 2012#29

HowDroll

Bubble181 said:
It's not at all what I'm talking about, except perhaps that, in my personal experience, good-looking nerds tend to be more pleasant and less bitchy/haughty/whatever than good-looking non-nerds. That's not limited to women, though.

My guess on this, from personal experience -- and I'd be interested in what the other women on the forum think about this -- is that a lot of women who grew up to be nerds were the "uncool" kids in elementary/high school. Some of the uncool girls grew up to be reasonably hot, but when you're ostracized as a kid, I think you're generally more aware of how you treat people. Just a theory.

Jul 27, 2012#30

Covar

HowDroll said:
Enough with this trying to evaluate whether a girl is a "real geek" or a "booth babe" or somewhere in between. Seriously. It demeans everyone involved. Geekdom is not some super-exclusive club with minimum criteria for membership (but only if you have a vagina, of course. I have yet to hear a conversation about how a guy isn't a real geek and is only pretending to "satisfy his hollow ego.") If anything, it's ironic as hell that a group that has historically been defined by its outsider status is now trying to figure out whether certain women are good enough to sit at the cool kids' table.

It does happen to men too. I've seen several cases at my LCBS where people are given crap, looked down on for appearing like they take care of themselves, and actually work out. Regardless of gender it's a ridiculous conversation and like you mention extremely ironic. Although even in high school the most cliquish people I knew were the ones who raged against the "jocks".

HowDroll said:
Are there women (and men, for that matter) who pretend to be something they're not for attention? Yup. But so what? Best case scenario, they'll look like assholes if it becomes obvious that they don't know what the hell they're talking about. (Actually, scratch that -- best case scenario, they'll discover new interests and want to get more involved in the community.) Worst case scenario, we all get to see some nice boobies. (I can't for the life of me understand why anyone is bitching about roving gangs of attractive women, except perhaps for a latent inferiority complex from when the pretty popular girl said something mean back in high school. If someone offered me a few hundred bucks to stand around in heels and smile, I'd sure as hell be a booth babe too.)

I've got nothing. It seems stupid to me too.

HowDroll said:
So, seriously, if a girl says she's a gamer but only plays World of Warcraft/Call of Duty/Wii/etc. -- don't give her shit about because you are LOL SUPERIOR. Take it as an opportunity to share your interests. Everyone has to start somewhere, and I know a few girls that grew up pursuing more traditional female interests and are just now starting to get into gaming/fantasy/anime/etc.

Mav's of the world take note.

HowDroll said:
For the record, I don't see much of this going on with the male members of this forum -- although that may be because most, if not all, of the females here are deeply entrenched in the geek community -- but I've had my jimmies rustled by this shit over the last few days and wanted to rant about it. With the traditional portrayal/objectification of women in geek media, especially comics, anime, and video games, we have enough hurdles to overcome; let's stop with the twenty questions to make sure we're "geek enough."

But how will I be able to judge people by assigning them the exact negative behavior I'm engaging in, based on a meaningless stereotype? In all seriousness, things like above only serve to perpetuate stereotypes and is a self-satisfying behavior. One thing I like about halforums is as you mentioned I don't see much (note much) of that here, possibly because of the wide range of people on these boards. There are quite a bit of geek communities I now avoid just for the sheer amount of elitism seeping from the members. This may be just a problem with online communities as a whole, but I've experienced it IRL with Comic and RP nerds, not so much with sports fans (again IRL).

Jul 27, 2012#31

Bumble the Boy Wonder

No, but really, I raged at that CNN article when I saw it too, Droll. I couldn't even finish it because the guy just sounded like such a Munson to me, that he lost all credibility in my eyes.

Guys. Girls. We can all be weirdos, outcasts, nerds and geeks.. together.

Jul 27, 2012#32

Bubble181

HowDroll said:
My guess on this, from personal experience -- and I'd be interested in what the other women on the forum think about this -- is that a lot of women who grew up to be nerds were the "uncool" kids in elementary/high school. Some of the uncool girls grew up to be reasonably hot, but when you're ostracized as a kid, I think you're generally more aware of how you treat people. Just a theory.

Well, yes. I don't think people who like Star Trek or Tolkien are de facto better people. I assume it has to do with exactly what you say - people who've been bullied/ostracized/were alwyas a bit on the outside/were picked last in games/whatever tend to either become pretty big bullies themselves, or they learn to pay more attention to others in trying not to exclude others, not to hurt feelings, etc. And/or try to be more inclusive towards people with "strange" hobbies (feel free to think badly of bronies [the masturbating-to-horses-type; not the ones who just enjoy a cartoon] or people who like their steak baked all the way through, though. They're subhuman).

I've considered that it might just be about common interests - that is, geeks are nicer to geeks, sporty people are nicer to sporty people - and, while that obviously has an effect as well, it seems to me that the more geeky ones are really more forgiving/less obnoxious in general. Which, these days, tends to make them popular with everyone except the "popular" people from a decade ago.

Note that I'm talking in general now, not just about women or some such. I don't think that's a really meaningful difference on this.

Jul 27, 2012#33

Charlie Don't Surf

The degree of male privilege in gaming / nerd culture is just staggering and awful.

Jul 27, 2012#34

Dei

Bubble181 you basically said that nerd girls are either really hot or really gross, but both are nice and smart. Which, has already been mentioned, is completely absurd.

Jul 27, 2012#35

Tress

Charlie Don't Surf said:
The degree of male privilege in gaming / nerd culture is just staggering and awful.

I totally agree. I don't understand why this is even a thing. Why do we constantly try to evaluate women in geek culture? Why are we always trying to assess their credibility? Because the majority of male geeks see them as girls/sex objects first, and people second. And that's fucking deplorable.

Jul 27, 2012#36

Dirona

Bubble181 said:
Note that I'm talking in general now, not just about women or some such. I don't think that's a really meaningful difference on this.

And that's where I think your wrong, and where you've missed the point of Droll's original post. There is a difference between how male and female geeks/nerds (whatever) are assessed. There is also a difference in how they are treated (see Dei's comment), but I think that's a different issue.

The most recent blow-up re: Felicia Day is one example, but most of the female gamers on the board (myself included) can probably give you examples of being "tested" exclusively by geeky male collegues to see if they fit in, and futhermore that they have not seen that same degree of grilling administered to those with different plumbing. That I think, is the main point here; and I would agree that that difference does exist and that it does not add anything to geek culture (if we accept that as being a thing), or the geek community - be it on the internet as a whole or within a particular sub-group.

Edit for ninjas - also what Tress just said.

Jul 27, 2012#37

LittleKagsin

I feel bad that my opinion on this has gone from 'I'm so mad, Y U JUDGE ME??' to 'I really don't care'.

While the article does make me upset, very VERY upset, I'm so over the 'real geek vs. geek' debate. I can't speak for anyone but myself and for me it doesn't bother me much the influx of people wanting to be called geeks or be in to geeky things. I'm with HowDroll, it's a chance to share common interests and to make new friends! And if someone is faking it...they're easy to spot, just like Dave said. I also think, if they really aren't interested in geek things..they'll lose interest and disappear. No harm, no foul.

Because I was picked on all through out school, I have a pretty steep 'I try to never judge anyone ever' policy. I don't want to perpetuate the behaviour that everyone else seems to deem necessary to use.

Even if I was questioned about my true geek, and was found fake, I'd still like what I like. I'd still run home to play video games with my husband. I'd still sprint to the fabric store to make fun costumes. I would still bike to the comic book store to see what's new in stock. My actions aren't based on someone's opinion of me, so..I'm not to bothered by it. Sure, it makes me sad that a group of people who were generally the outcasts and bullied in school are now taking a more..elitist route. And I hope people can figure it out. I've always thought that every stranger you meet is a chance to make a friend, so instead of quizzing them, I want to find common ground.

I feel like I never make sense when I give opinions on here...bleh!

Regardless...I love you guys and want you to know, I've never felt threatened on here or felt like Iwas being looked down upon for being female.

EDIT: One more thing, I've always found it easier if I'm honest or upfront about what I like and don't like. If I try to lie my way around a subject, people can normally tell and call me on it. But if I just say 'Oh, haven't watched that.' Or 'Oh, I didn't read that comic, tell me more about it!'. It goes over much better.
Maybe if people did something similar geeks in general wouldn't feel like a bunch of women are trying to gain attention and encroach on something that they love.

Jul 27, 2012#38

Dirona

I get the 'I'm so over it' stance Kag's, I really do. But I can't help but still get pissed off (or at the very least, somewhat irked) when the apparent 'entry requirements' to geekdom are a) different depending on your gender and b) rigidly enforced (I like the idea that we can all be nerds of whatever flavour together!).

Possibly preceisely because a fair number of geeks come from the not-so-popular crowd, we are still attuned to what others things of us, and even if we will still be geeks in our own minds, to be bullied by what we feel is our own community is particularly painful. It is also totally unnecessary - and that's what I get annoyed about.

Jul 27, 2012#39

Cajungal

I thought part of getting past adolescence was having a personality that is not one of the one-word labels in a teen movie. I mean, I know that culture is a big part of some people's identity, but hopefully there is more to you than one word. And if people who have nothing more fulfilling to do with their time start questioning this tiny facet of who you are... well the truth is that they're probably a waste of space anyway. And who cares what a waste of space thinks?

Jul 27, 2012#40

Bubble181

Dirona said:
And that's where I think your wrong, and where you've missed the point of Droll's original post. There is a difference between how male and female geeks/nerds (whatever) are assessed. There is also a difference in how they are treated (see Dei's comment), but I think that's a different issue.

Why can people not just read what I write? I wrote I don't think this is a meaningful difference. I don't care if other people think it is, or whatever. I'll gladly agree a lot of male geeks are complete idiots who are incapable of looking at a woman and seeing an actual person. I didn't say nobody thinks it's a difference. I said I don't think it's an interesting difference. I don't know whether half of the people on this board are male or female! I don't care! Other people can be asshats all they want, I wasn't talking about them. I was talking about my opinion, which is that, male or female, nerds tend to be nicer. This has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not female geeks get more/less/equal amounts of "cred, whether or not females are being treated equally, or whatever else. I'm voicing my opinion that it doesn't matter whether you're male or female. You won't get any more or less demands of proof of your nerdiness depending on your gender (which is not necessarily related to your plumbing) from me.

Why is it people feel the need to take what I write and spin it completely the opposite way? If nobody thought this was an issue, we wouldn't be having this thread. We are, so obviously some people think it matters. Good for them. Or not, as the case may be, because it makes them sexist pricks, but anyway. I'm just saying I think it shouldn't be an issue. There are far more important things to discriminate on. People who think Voyager was the best Star Trek, for example. Now those need to be taken outside.

Jul 27, 2012#41

LittleKagsin

I think it's great that people have that spark and intensity that I don't have. Especially with something like this where there is reason to be annoyed and upset, I'm just not one of them. You go Dirona!

And for me, I'm sure another factor is that I keep a pretty low profile, I mean, yeah, I cosplay, but really I try to not be in the forefront ever. So because of that, I personally dont' get bullied often. I never learned how to fight back, per se, I learned to ignore. And it's just what I do.

I'm glad, though, that there are awesome women who are feisty enough to take a vocal stand on this issue.

If I ever felt the need to do so, I would. But for this, and right now? I just don't at this time.

Jul 27, 2012#42

Bubble181

Also, I'm out. I can already tell this is yet another thread where people will joyfully misinterpret what I say until they can paint me as a misogynist/rape apologist/anti-women/whatever, and I'm frankly quite sick of it.

This board has some weird ways of having a conversation.

Jul 27, 2012#43

Tress

Bubble181 said:
Also, I'm out. I can already tell this is yet another thread where people will joyfully misinterpret what I say until they can paint me as a misogynist/rape apologist/anti-women/whatever, and I'm frankly quite sick of it.

This board has some weird ways of having a conversation.

I'm not saying I think you're a mysogynist/anti-women/whatever. But consider this: if everyone always seems to misinterpret what you say, across different threads, across different days and weeks, maybe you should think about how clearly you are communicating. Which is easier to believe: everyone misinterprets what you say, or that you aren't doing an effective job at expressing your position accurately?

Jul 27, 2012#44

WasabiPoptart

Bubble181 said:
I'll answer that question, Droll, if you answer me another one.

Why/how is it, that geek girls only seem to come in two varieties? The same is, up to a point, true for male geeks as well, but I find it much more pronounced in women. You have the ugly-fat-weat-stained-don't-want-to-go-near-with-a-ten-foot-pole type (who are usually awesome and very caring and fun), and you get the so-hot-it's-not-fair-they'-re-also-smart variety (who, in the case of those I know, when nerd, also turn out to be nice. Dammit! I do know why I always crush on geek girls, admittedly, it seems to be 90% of women who are smart, intelligent and hot at the same time are geeks ).

I had to reread this several times before I believed someone actually wrote this. Really? REALLY?!! Could you be more insulting?

And "geek girls", in my not so humble opinion, is a derogatory term. I am 40 years old. I am not a girl. My 3 year old is a girl. The term "geek girl" implies the female is immature, young, and some how less than a male geek.

I have more to say, but I am so incensed by this entire thing that I cannot put my thoughts on the page without sounding like a raging idiot troll.

Jul 27, 2012#45

Necronic

If women don't want to be treated differently from men then they need to accept that some geeks are going to go after any angle they can to try and feel superior to them/tear them down to protect their own shallow ego.

So, you know....deal with it.

Jul 27, 2012#46

Tress

Necronic said:
If women don't want to be treated differently from men then they need to accept that some geeks are going to go after any angle they can to try and feel superior to them/tear them down to protect their own shallow ego.

So, you know....deal with it.

No, and that's bullshit. Women don't want to be treated differently, shouldn't have to be treated differently, and it's the morons that need to learn to deal with it.

Jul 27, 2012#47

Frank

Tress said:
No, and that's bullshit. Women don't want to be treated differently, shouldn't have to be treated differently, and it's the morons that need to learn to deal with it.

What he's getting at is that geek 'men' do it to each other too.

Jul 27, 2012#48

SeraRelm

Let's put this to rest. Felicia Day is not a geek girl... She is a geek horse.

Carry on.

Jul 27, 2012#49

strawman

Necronic said:
[people] need to accept [abuse]

That's a stupid thing to say, no matter how you slice and dice it, or limit it to particular groups on either end of the abuse.

Really, really dumb. No one should ever be told to sit down, shut up, and take it without complaint.

Jul 27, 2012#50

Covar

stienman said:
That's a stupid thing to say, no matter how you slice and dice it, or limit it to particular groups on either end of the abuse.

Really, really dumb. No one should ever be told to sit down, shut up, and take it without complaint.

Bumble speaks the truth!

Jul 27, 2012#51

strawman

SeraRelm said:
Let's put this to rest. Felicia Day is not a geek girl... She is a geek horse.

Carry on.

Bad horse! Bad horse! Bad horse! He's bad!
He rides across the nation, the thoroughbred of sin!

Jul 27, 2012#52

GasBandit

Tress said:
I totally agree. I don't understand why this is even a thing. Why do we constantly try to evaluate women in geek culture? Why are we always trying to assess their credibility?

Because a lot of dorks can't comprehend why someone they think has de facto instant access to sex on demand would want to partake in what they themselves use to cope with not having instant access to sex on demand.

Jul 27, 2012#53

strawman

GasBandit said:
a lot of dorks ... use [their hobby] to cope with not having instant access to sex on demand.

Interesting assertion. Probably a bad assumption to hold in general, but interesting nonetheless.

Jul 27, 2012#54

Jay

Tress said:
No, and that's bullshit. Women don't want to be treated differently, shouldn't have to be treated differently, and it's the morons that need to learn to deal with it.

While I agree with you and many others in the thread, I will confidently state that this will never ever completely change because we tend to usually cope with others of the opposite sex. There may be at some point some type of superficial change over the years but the end result is pretty simple to see.

IMO, if Felicia Day was a dude named Felix Day with the exact same personality, the exact same intelligence, we wouldn't be talking about her. So in some ways, it's easier for one sex if you fall in a certain criteria and are looking for that sort of attention from your peers, sometimes is harder. That's just how the cookie crumbles and how it is. So, I can see where the article is coming from.... but not with the way it was thought out.

And I'll also confirm that we as humans we all have jealously, all have envy and all have doubt when certain others show up and have certain interests that are... out of the norm of what we expect of them (aka instant sex lol). Our uncertainties will always play a part.

Yet for me, I actually work in the exact opposite way. I completely embrace those who don't fall in a certain criteria like a certain subject that might be considered "geeky", not that's it's an actual term to describe someone as an activity/subject is an activity/subject that person might particularly be fond of can be something that can attributed to many different people or different ages, sexes, social standings... etc.

For example, I love star wars, yet I have friends who hate it but like other geek stuff like Star Trek. So, there's no total geeks or partial geeks, we just like different things.

However, I will boldly state that sometimes Felicia Day... can be considered... too much. That's just me though.

Jul 27, 2012#55

GasBandit

stienman said:
Interesting assertion.

Betty Childs, Pi-Delta-Pi: [blissfully] Oh, Stan. You were wonderful. You did things to me you've never done before.
[Lewis takes off his mask]
Betty Childs, Pi-Delta-Pi: [gasps] Ahhh! You're that NERD!
Lewis: Yeah.
Betty Childs, Pi-Delta-Pi: [blissfully] Oh, you were wonderful. [gasps in ecstacy] Are all nerds as good as you?
Lewis: Yes.
Betty Childs, Pi-Delta-Pi: How come?
Lewis: 'Cause all Jocks ever think about is sports, all nerds ever think about is sex.

Jul 27, 2012#56

strawman

I suspect some people are conflicted with Felecia because she actively uses her geekiness to promote herself and her professional career.

It's really no different than me doing so and getting extra consulting jobs because I know esoteric stuff about computers and electronics that are intesting to my potential clients.

Because she does her professional openly in the public eye, she's going to get more loud mouthed haters than I will.

Most of my haters don't have the time to complain about my methods or geekiness, they are struggling to get their project done on time and under budget.

Jul 27, 2012#57

SpecialKO

What I am taking away from this discussion is that there are apparently so many hot geeky-appearing girls out there that there is a purist backlash against it just to deal with the overflow.

Which really just means that I've been hanging out in all the wrong places.

Jul 27, 2012#58

Ravenpoe

When a girl says she's a gamer, and then says she only plays Call of Duty, I don't stare at her in scorn because she's a woman. I do it because she only plays CoD. To treat her differently would be sexist.

(this is a joke, I don't actually judge people for how they spend their leisure time... At least not to their face)

Jul 27, 2012#59

Necronic

Frank said:
What he's getting at is that geek 'men' do it to each other too.

This is exactly what I am saying, and I should have put it that way.

The point is that, why does anyone care what these people think? Their opinions are clearly terrible and poorly concieved, they are the lowest common denominator of the mouthbreather genus. The only reason I care about what they think is that some people occasionally mistake me for one of them because I play computer games obsessively.

Jul 27, 2012#60

strawman

I don't judge people for how they spend their video game dollars, but I do judge people who judge people for how they spend their video game dollars.

Jul 27, 2012#61

Necronic

I judge people for what they say and do.

Jul 27, 2012#62

Dave

LittleKagsin said:
Regardless...I love you guys and want you to know, I've never felt threatened on here or felt like Iwas being looked down upon for being female.

You have no idea how good that makes me feel. We've striven to make this a place where everyone is welcome, whether they are gay, straight, white, black, male, female, etc. Do we always get to the level I'd like to see? No. But we try. I can't remember the last time someone made a discriminatory remark and wasn't called out on it. Sometimes we even go too far the other way in trying NOT to offend...and that offends some.

But to see a very real statement by someone who on other sites might be totally creeped on & creeped out, well, that makes me feel good.

Keep up the good work, HF.

Jul 27, 2012#63

GasBandit

Man, if I treated ANY woman how I treat my male FRIENDS, I'd always be in the hospital or jail.

Jul 27, 2012#64

Jay

Dave said:
You have no idea how good that makes me feel. We've striven to make this a place where everyone is welcome, whether they are gay, straight, white, black, male, female, etc. Do we always get to the level I'd like to see? No. But we try. I can't remember the last time someone made a discriminatory remark and wasn't called out on it. Sometimes we even go too far the other way in trying NOT to offend...and that offends some.

But to see a very real statement by someone who on other sites might be totally creeped on & creeped out, well, that makes me feel good.

Keep up the good work, HF.

Jul 27, 2012#65

Dave

Jul 27, 2012#66

sixpackshaker

Yer going to hell for that one...

Jul 27, 2012#67

strawman

sixpackshaker said:
Yer going to hell for that one...

And not due to the hundreds of creepy Woody pics he's posted over the last two years?

Jul 27, 2012#68

sixpackshaker

I likely had the same reaction then...

Jul 27, 2012#69

Necronic

GasBandit said:
Man, if I treated ANY woman how I treat my male FRIENDS, I'd always be in the hospital or jail.

Seriously.

Jul 27, 2012#70

Charlie Don't Surf

lmao

Jul 27, 2012#71

Covar

Necronic said:
The point is that, why does anyone care what these people think?

I don't and don't think anyone should, but it's worrisome to see crap like that on CNN, because it sends the message that it's common and acceptable behavior among the sub-culture.

Jul 27, 2012#72

Jay

stienman said:
And not due to the hundreds of creepy Woody pics he's posted over the last two years?

Jul 27, 2012#73

Necronic

Hey Charlie did you find the movie Super Troopers mysogonistic, because I could go ahead and walk your train of thought down the road into a 20 car pileup for you if you would like.

Jul 27, 2012#74

Cajungal

Necronic said:
Seriously.

I love hearing my some of my male friends talk to one another. It's like having access to a 24-hour roast channel.

Jul 27, 2012#75

Necronic

Covar said:
I don't and don't think anyone should, but it's worrisome to see crap like that on CNN, because it sends the message that it's common and acceptable behavior among the sub-culture.

That's....that's fair actually. I've gone off the hook for this exact issue (the subculture representing itself in a way that I feel denegrates me.) So...I'll change my view on it.

Funny how Charlie's superiority complex is never as convincing as a good argument.

Jul 27, 2012#76

Charlie Don't Surf

Necronic said:
Hey Charlie did you find the movie Super Troopers mysogonistic, because I could go ahead and walk your train of thought down the road into a 20 car pileup for you if you would like.

go on

I haven't seen it in a while

Jul 27, 2012#77

Necronic

Ok,

1) Your comment of LMFAO was because you were mocking me for thinking it to be acceptable to behave in a way towards a man that is different from how I behave towards a woman.

2) The movie Super Troopers was one of the funnier movies I have ever seen and I don't think I've ever met a person who didn't like it.

3) There are about a million things that guys do to each other in that movie that are hilarious that, if done to a woman, would be borderline assault (in some cases it flat out would be assault.)

Jul 27, 2012#78

Charlie Don't Surf

my lmao was for the Watermelon joke

Jul 27, 2012#79

HowDroll

GasBandit said:
Man, if I treated ANY woman how I treat my male FRIENDS, I'd always be in the hospital or jail.

Care to elaborate? I find myself curious about the dangerous/illegal shit that you do to your male friends.

Unless, of course, you're trying to say that ALL women are oversensitive, thin-skinned bitches who blow harmless fun way out of proportion. But surely you can't be that much of an asshat.

Jul 27, 2012#80

Necronic

ahh ok nm then. I retract my statement. I'm doing a lot of retracting today. Newton's laws mean that something else must be extending somewhere.

Jul 27, 2012#81

Charlie Don't Surf

I am admittedly lazy about quoting

Jul 27, 2012#82

sixpackshaker

Heh

CNN Article said:
And be it known that I am good friends with several stunningly beautiful women who cosplay as stunningly beautiful characters from comics, sci-fi, fantasy and other genres of fandom. They are, each of them, bone fide geeks. They belong with us. Being beautiful is not a crime.

But really I have a lot of black friends, but these N...................................

Jul 27, 2012#83

Necronic

HowDroll said:
Care to elaborate? I find myself curious about the dangerous/illegal shit that you do to your male friends.

Unless, of course, you're trying to say that ALL women are oversensitive, thin-skinned bitches who blow harmless fun way out of proportion. But surely you can't be that much of an asshat.

Ultimately a lot of it flat out comes down to hormones (testosterone vs estrogen) and human nature. Men are inherently and openly competitive and aggressive with each other. Women are different. There are things that men find fun that women simply wouldn't understand, or would interpret in a different way than a man. Vice versa is true as well.

Now, in the broader sense that a woman and a man should be treated with courtesy, respect, and honesty by a friend, that holds true.

It's just that the finer details of how you do that are significantly different.

Jul 27, 2012#84

HowDroll

Necronic said:
Ultimately a lot of it flat out comes down to hormones (testosterone vs estrogen) and human nature. Men are inherently and openly competitive and aggressive with each other. Women are different. /quote]

You clearly have never been to a roller derby bout. I have a few nasty bruises that prove you totally wrong.

Jul 27, 2012#85

strawman

...but heaven help you if you're ugly and cosplay. Now there's a crime no amount of geekiness can hope to absolve.

Jul 27, 2012#86

GasBandit

HowDroll said:
Care to elaborate? I find myself curious about the dangerous/illegal shit that you do to your male friends.

Unless, of course, you're trying to say that ALL women are oversensitive, thin-skinned bitches who blow harmless fun way out of proportion. But surely you can't be that much of an asshat.

Men aren't nice to each other out of earshot of ladies.

Jul 27, 2012#87

Ravenpoe

HowDroll said:
Care to elaborate? I find myself curious about the dangerous/illegal shit that you do to your male friends.

Unless, of course, you're trying to say that ALL women are oversensitive, thin-skinned bitches who blow harmless fun way out of proportion. But surely you can't be that much of an asshat.

The things I do to my guy friends I would not do to random guys on the street, or even to done of my other guy friends, because a part of human interaction is knowing that different people react differently. And the same applies to both genders.

I know which if my female friends appreciate lewd jokes, and those that don't, same as male friends. In fact, even making that distinction based on gender feels archaic. Some friends react differently than others, end of story.

Jul 27, 2012#88

Charlie Don't Surf

Necronic said:
Ultimately a lot of it flat out comes down to hormones (testosterone vs estrogen) and human nature. Men are inherently and openly competitive and aggressive with each other. Women are different. There are things that men find fun that women simply wouldn't understand, or would interpret in a different way than a man. .

biotruths itt (now I am mocking you)

Jul 27, 2012#89

sixpackshaker

Lewd jokes are only good when the person rolls their eyes first then laughs.

Jul 27, 2012#90

Necronic

A lot of it also has to do with the fact that hetero men and women are at some level inclined (in at least 1 direction in most cases) towards mating, whereas male-male or female-female are not. This may not affect how a woman acts towards a man, but it definitely affects how a man acts towards a woman (unless it's a close relative, and seriously, I mean close).

Its not sexist to acknowledge the existence of sex.

Jul 27, 2012#91

Magister Moonie

GasBandit said:
Men aren't nice to each other out of earshot of ladies.

I am nice to all of my male friends. Maybe you are just jerks and it is not a symptom of being a man?

Jul 27, 2012#92

Charlie Don't Surf

Necronic said:
A lot of it also has to do with the fact that hetero men and women are at some level inclined (in at least 1 direction in most cases) towards mating, whereas male-male or female-female are not. This may not affect how a woman acts towards a man, but it definitely affects how a man acts towards a woman (unless it's a close relative, and seriously, I mean close)..

you and me baby
ain't nothin but mammals

Jul 27, 2012#93

Magister Moonie

Magister Moonie said:
I am nice to all of my male friends. Maybe you are just jerks and it is not a symptom of being a man?

WOMEN THOUGH

YOU SHOULD SEE THE AWFUL THINGS I DO TO THEM

Jul 27, 2012#94

Necronic

Charlie Don't Surf said:
biotruths itt (now I am mocking you)

I'm not surprised that you don't see how your own White Knight attitude is a result of testosterone.

Jul 27, 2012#95

Magister Moonie

Male feminists only want to get laid, it is known, Khaleesi.

Jul 27, 2012#96

Charlie Don't Surf

Necronic said:
I'm not surprised that you don't see how your own White Knight attitude is a result of testosterone.

I'm not exclusively sexually attracted to minorities or the poor????

Jul 27, 2012#97

Dave

I have some female friends I have to walk on eggshells around. I also have some male friends that are the same way. I have female friends who can take a joke and give it right back.

In short, it's the individual that matters, whether male or female.

Jul 27, 2012#98

Necronic

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I'm not exclusively sexually attracted to minorities or the poor????

No, but the only people that have a chance of breaking their internal programming are those that admit to it's existence. And I've never gotten the impression that you've ever gotten anywhere near breaking your programming.

I mean, come one, this is like Asimov 101 mate.

Jul 27, 2012#99

Charlie Don't Surf

Necronic said:
No, but the only people that have a chance of breaking their internal programming are those that admit to it's existence. And I've never gotten the impression that you've ever gotten anywhere near breaking your programming.

I mean, come one, this is like Asimov 101 mate.

I was a young republican and libertarian and wore t-shirts with the Confederate flag in high school

Jul 27, 2012#100

Necronic

And then you went to a polar opposite and considered yourself free.

Jul 27, 2012#101

GasBandit

Magister Moonie said:
I am nice to all of my male friends. Maybe you are just jerks and it is not a symptom of being a man?

I know more people like me than you purport to be.

I'm not saying we beat the hell out of each other, just that we're much more... coarse and uncensored. I game with my significant other, and when I do, it's totally different than when I game with my best friend. For example, I would never in a million years dream of saying "Quit hogging the ammo you cock guzzling no-talent shit-eating buttslut, jesus christ why do you suck so bad?" to her. Him, it'd hardly be a noteworthy occurrence. Another friend, we replaced his desktop and all his browser favorites with gay porn. And his startup noise. It was hilarious. I've never drawn pictures in permanent marker on a sleeping woman, or even the tamer version of simply stacking garbage on them. And so on.

In the same vein -

Jul 27, 2012#102

Dave

I can honestly say my friends and I have never done anything like this to one another.

Jul 27, 2012#103

Frank

Yeah.....I can't say the same.

Jul 27, 2012#104

GasBandit

Dave said:
I can honestly say my friends and I have never done anything like this to one another.

This explains a lot.

Jul 27, 2012#105

Magister Moonie

GasBandit said:
I know more people like me than you purport to be.

I'm not saying we beat the hell out of each other, just that we're much more... coarse and uncensored. I game with my significant other, and when I do, it's totally different than when I game with my best friend. For example, I would never in a million years dream of saying "Quit hogging the ammo you cock guzzling no-talent shit-eating buttslut, jesus christ why do you suck so bad?" to her. Him, it'd hardly be a noteworthy occurrence. Another friend, we replaced his desktop and all his browser favorites with gay porn. And his startup noise. It was hilarious. I've never drawn pictures in permanent marker on a sleeping woman, or even the tamer version of simply stacking garbage on them. And so on.

In the same vein -

oh wow I guess you edited in a rage comic, hi there rage comic. haha women are so catty!

Anyways, before I was distracted by a hilarious comic that succinctly made an argument, I was going to say I thought you were out of college, my bad. Yeah that shit happens!

ANYWAYS

Nerds and the people who supply nerds with their vices (game designers, fantasy authors, TV show creators, comic book companies, etc) need to wise the fuck up and realize that women are part of their target audience and won't be driven away despite how toxic other nerds can be. Even today, I still see comic book people arguing that the only fans are male and white. A quick trip to the comicbook store or convention will show that there are just as many minorities and women buying up Sci-Fi and comicbook shit like it is going out of style.

If anyone is worried about fake nerds taking up their precious hobby and reexamine your life because you've got your priorities all wrong.

Jul 27, 2012#106

Charlie Don't Surf

am I terrible for never changing my mind or for changing my mind, figure it out

Jul 27, 2012#107

HowDroll

GasBandit said:
Men aren't nice to each other out of earshot of ladies.

Uh-huh. I have three brothers, most of my friends are male, and I've had several jobs when I was the only female in the department. Some women can handle being "one of the guys," believe it or not. We're not all delicate little flowers. But feel free to keep painting 50% of the human population with one brush, please. It's quite endearing :rolleyes:

There's a difference between a male friend making a joke at my expense because he respects/likes me enough to know I can handle it (and my brothers/male AND female friends and I have come up with some fun names and insults for each other during gaming sessions), and some random jerk with a "LOL SHOULDN'T YOU BE IN THE KITCHEN INSTEAD???" attitude when it comes to the hobbies I enjoy. The latter is what I'm addressing here. Sucks that you don't have any cool female friends, but yeah, totally not the point. But keep up the great sexism!

Jul 27, 2012#108

Dave

GasBandit said:
This explains a lot.

Not quite sure what that means. Are you saying that it's a bad thing that my friends and I don't treat each other like enemies or junior high kids?

Jul 27, 2012#109

Necronic

Magister Moonie said:
If anyone is worried about fake nerds taking up their precious hobby and reexamine your life because you've got your priorities all wrong.

You know since this was the actualy point of the original post, I think it's fair to say that we all agree with this, even if we do disagree on details.

Jul 27, 2012#110

GasBandit

Magister Moonie said:
oh wow I guess you edited in a rage comic, hi there rage comic. haha women are so catty!

Anyways, before I was distracted by a hilarious comic that succinctly made an argument, I was going to say I thought you were out of college, my bad. Yeah that shit happens!

Nigga, please, I know 55 year old guys who still act that way.

ANYWAYS

Nerds and the people who supply nerds with their vices (game designers, fantasy authors, TV show creators, comic book companies, etc) need to wise the fuck up and realize that women are part of their target audience and won't be driven away despite how toxic other nerds can be. Even today, I still see comic book people arguing that the only fans are male and white. A quick trip to the comicbook store or convention will show that there are just as many minorities and women buying up Sci-Fi and comicbook shit like it is going out of style.

If anyone is worried about fake nerds taking up their precious hobby and reexamine your life because you've got your priorities all wrong.

Yeah, I don't disagree with you there. Some guys still have yet to realize what most of the rest of us learned in grade school - be nice to girls.

Jul 27, 2012#111

SpecialKO

I have to admit, I find the idea of Charlie becoming magically, instantaneously attracted to white Americans when they officially are no longer the majority really freakin' funny.

Jul 27, 2012#112

Necronic

Charlie Don't Surf said:
am I terrible for never changing my mind or for changing my mind, figure it out

Your terrible for exchanging one form of zealotry for another and thinking that you fixed the problem

Jul 27, 2012#113

Charlie Don't Surf

SpecialKO said:
I have to admit, I find the idea of Charlie becoming magically, instantaneously attracted to white Americans when they officially are no longer the majority really freakin' funny.

*yawn wake up, open window, stretch*

*cock head to side*

WHERE THA WHITE WOMEN AT

Jul 27, 2012#114

Necronic

ok that was funny

Jul 27, 2012#115

GasBandit

HowDroll said:
Uh-huh. I have three brothers, most of my friends are male, and I've had several jobs when I was the only female in the department. Some women can handle being "one of the guys," believe it or not. We're not all delicate little flowers. But feel free to keep painting 50% of the human population with one brush, please. It's quite endearing

Some, but they are the vast minority. Guys are, without malice, as mean and nasty to each other as they can think to be as a game. As bonding. There are exceptions to every rule, but in general it's safer to assume that men and women are different.

There's a difference between a male friend making a joke at my expense because he respects/likes me enough to know I can handle it (and my brothers/male AND female friends and I have come up with some fun names and insults for each other during gaming sessions), and some random jerk with a "LOL SHOULDN'T YOU BE IN THE KITCHEN INSTEAD???" attitude when it comes to the hobbies I enjoy. The latter is what I'm addressing here. Sucks that you don't have any cool female friends, but yeah, totally not the point. But keep up the great sexism!

Fuck you you wonderful lady, I'm not sexist.

Seriously though, what I'm saying is that treating women with respect, which IS WHAT SHOULD BE DONE, is different from how most guys treat each other - IE, disrespectfully.

Jul 27, 2012#116

Necronic

HowDroll said:
There's a difference between a male friend making a joke at my expense because he respects/likes me enough to know I can handle it (and my brothers/male AND female friends and I have come up with some fun names and insults for each other during gaming sessions), and some random jerk with a "LOL SHOULDN'T YOU BE IN THE KITCHEN INSTEAD???" attitude when it comes to the hobbies I enjoy. The latter is what I'm addressing here. Sucks that you don't have any cool female friends, but yeah, totally not the point. But keep up the great sexism!

Fair enough, people in the latter don't have a good sense of humor and would be boring to either men or women. But do you acknowledge that men will treat women differently simply for realities of human mating? The way a human will interact with another human when mating is not on the table is significantly different from when it is, and for most men mating is always on the mind (at some level).

Jul 27, 2012#117

GasBandit

Ok, I want to know if bitch is an automatic filter or if dave doesn't think that the tough geek chick who "can handle it" can't handle the word bitch, even when used in ironic jest.

Aaand that answers that.

Jul 27, 2012#118

Necronic

It's not on a filter apparently.

Jul 27, 2012#119

SpecialKO

Magister Moonie said:
need to wise the fuck up and realize that women are part of their target audience and won't be driven away despite how toxic other nerds can be.

The odd thing is that many of them do realize that...and then take it in another direction entirely and say, "well, if they're not leaving, they must LOVE the way we do things, so let's keep on keepin' on!"

The game industry in particular has issues with this.

Jul 27, 2012#120

Dave

GasBandit said:
Ok, I want to know if bitch is an automatic filter or if dave doesn't think that the tough geek chick who "can handle it" can't handle the word bitch, even when used in ironic jest.

Aaand that answers that.

It's not a filter. We don't allow name calling.

Jul 27, 2012#121

GasBandit

Dave said:
Not quite sure what that means. Are you saying that it's a bad thing that my friends and I don't treat each other like enemies or junior high kids?

You'll never understand. You're condemned to be a melvin forever.

Jul 27, 2012#122

HowDroll

GasBandit said:
Some, but they are the vast minority. Guys are, without malice, as mean and nasty to each other as they can think to be as a game. As bonding. There are exceptions to every rule, but in general it's safer to assume that men and women are different.

Fuck you bitch, I'm not sexist.

Seriously though, what I'm saying is that treating women with respect, which IS WHAT SHOULD BE DONE, is different from how most guys treat each other - IE, disrespectfully.

A lot of women are like that. Some women aren't. What I took exception to was the "ANY woman" part of your statement because, yeah, a woman's sense of humor can be just as varied as a man's. I'm sure there are lots of men out there who would be shocked and pissed to be treated in the way you describe, and lots of women who would join right in.

While you and your friends may treat each other a certain way that would be shockingly disrespectful if directed toward strangers, am I wrong in assuming that these actions come from a place of respect? Do you have to reach a certain level in your friendship before such shenanigans commence? If I was -- to use your previous example -- gaming with a friend and he used those words to me, I'd laugh and tell him to fuck off because the context of the situation is very different than, say, if that same friend and I were in a legitimate argument and those words were said in anger and meant to hurt. Gender has nothing to do with it.

Jul 27, 2012#123

GasBandit

Dave said:
It's not a filter. We don't allow name calling.

Since when?! Bitch.

Jul 27, 2012#124

Dave

Right. Glad to know.

Jul 27, 2012#125

strawman

I can understand some geek reactions, though. Some of them are socially unable to interact with women and they do feel threatened at the influx into their hobby. You can't just jump into their playground, and tell them to change. Even if they wanted to, some them wouldn't be able to change.

Their actions may still be inexcusable, but at some point you do have to simply ignore what one subset of the community is doing, and enjoy the parts that are worthwhile for you.

Jul 27, 2012#126

Dave

GasBandit said:
Since when?! Bitch.

Context is everything. Maybe I read your post to Droll incorrectly, but it looked like you were calling her a bitch for real, which is why the edit and 0 point warning. If you want to discuss it further, there's a conversation open for it already. We can take it there.

Jul 27, 2012#127

HowDroll

stienman said:
I can understand some geek reactions, though. Some of them are socially unable to interact with women and they do feel threatened at the influx into their hobby. You can't just jump into their playground, and tell them to change. Even if they wanted to, some them wouldn't be able to change.

Their actions may still be inexcusable, but at some point you do have to simply ignore what one subset of the community is doing, and enjoy the parts that are worthwhile for you.

I'm generally happy to ignore it, and I honestly didn't really feel the need to comment until articles about it were splashed across the front page of CNN several days in a row.

Jul 27, 2012#128

GasBandit

HowDroll said:
A lot of women are like that. Some women aren't. What I took exception to was the "ANY woman" part of your statement because, yeah, a woman's sense of humor can be just as varied as a man's. I'm sure there are lots of men out there who would be shocked and pissed to be treated in the way you describe, and lots of women who would join right in.

Very well, let me amend "ANY woman" to "EVERY." As in, the default. That was what I was going for.

While you and your friends may treat each other a certain way that would be shockingly disrespectful if directed toward strangers, am I wrong in assuming that these actions come from a place of respect? Do you have to reach a certain level in your friendship before such shenanigans commence? If I was -- to use your previous example -- gaming with a friend and he used those words to me, I'd laugh and tell him to fuck off because the context of the situation is very different than, say, if that same friend and I were in a legitimate argument and those words were said in anger and meant to hurt. Gender has nothing to do with it.

Eh, I have found that there is, in general, a very disproportionate level in the amount one gender is willing to put up with of that sort of nonsense as opposed to the other.

Jul 27, 2012#129

Necronic

It's remarkable how many overlaps I am seeing between the Taliban and the neckbeard Gamers we are discussing.

Jul 27, 2012#130

Magister Moonie

Dave said:
Context is everything. Maybe I read your post to Droll incorrectly, but it looked like you were calling her a bitch for real, which is why the edit and 0 point warning. If you want to discuss it further, there's a conversation open for it already. We can take it there.

I particularly like the insinuation that if she didn't like being called a gendered insult, that proves his point and women really are just unable to be one of the boys.

Jul 27, 2012#131

strawman

Necronic said:
Your terrible...

My terrible what?

Jul 27, 2012#132

Necronic

Your terrible rug of war.

Jul 27, 2012#133

GasBandit

Dave said:
Context is everything. Maybe I read your post to Droll incorrectly, but it looked like you were calling her a bitch for real, which is why the edit and 0 point warning. If you want to discuss it further, there's a conversation open for it already. We can take it there.

I wasn't, and I don't think she thought I was either. I don't think it needs further discussion, and you ought to know by now I don't care about warnings.[DOUBLEPOST=1343419137][/DOUBLEPOST]

Magister Moonie said:
I particularly like the insinuation that if she didn't like being called a gendered insult, that proves his point and women really are just unable to be one of the boys.

Any empirical study of its useage, especially in gaming, will show you that bitch is not an insult exclusive to one gender.

Jul 27, 2012#134

Necronic

You know for the amount that me, Gas, Charlie and Steinman are commenting in this this really should be in the politics subforum.

Jul 27, 2012#135

Dave

GasBandit said:
Any empirical study of its useage, especially in gaming, will show you that bitch is not an insult exclusive to one gender.

Neither is "rape" or "fag", but these aren't acceptable either.

Jul 27, 2012#136

GasBandit

Dave said:
Neither is "rape" or "fag", but these aren't acceptable either.

I made no assertion other than gender. And it speaks even more to my point - while I personally don't bandy those about and usually my friends do not also, there are lots of guys out there who do, and from their point of view it only became an issue when girls started "intruding." <--- (this is not defending them)

Jul 27, 2012#137

Magister Moonie

GasBandit said:
I wasn't, and I don't think she thought I was either. I don't think it needs further discussion, and you ought to know by now I don't care about warnings.[DOUBLEPOST=1343419137][/DOUBLEPOST]
Any empirical study of its useage, especially in gaming, will show you that bitch is not an insult exclusive to one gender.

let's find out!

http://lin.ca/Uploads/cclr11/CCLR11-28.pdf
"Third, a significant finding of this study was that there was also evidence
that gendered violence was not just part of the game content, but was also experience by
the female gamers as described by their experience of misogynistic and/or discriminatory
behaviors directed toward them because they are female players. This included sexually
derogatory or hateful comments towards female gamers (e.g. “suck my dick bitch, and go back to the kitchen”)"

Jul 27, 2012#138

GasBandit

Magister Moonie said:
let's find out!

http://lin.ca/Uploads/cclr11/CCLR11-28.pdf
"Third, a significant finding of this study was that there was also evidence
that gendered violence was not just part of the game content, but was also experience by
the female gamers as described by their experience of misogynistic and/or discriminatory
behaviors directed toward them because they are female players. This included sexually
derogatory or hateful comments towards female gamers (e.g. “suck my dick bitch, and go back to the kitchen”)"

I don't even know what gender you ARE, but already I can tell you're a little wonderful lady. That study starts from a presupposition that bitch is gendered use. You basically just tried to prove creationism to me by quoting the bible.

Jul 27, 2012#139

Jay

GasBandit said:
Eh, I have found that there is, in general, a very disproportionate level in the amount one gender is willing to put up with of that sort of nonsense as opposed to the other.

I agree with you and in many ways, I act the same with my friends.

For example...

I've thrown a $20 to a friend to dare him to do something stupid such as dance sexy in front of another guy... I'd never ask a girl friend to do that. No matter how cool they are...

Cause this ain't likely going to happen

I however, will attempt to throw Droll a few dares if I ever meet her though, being a cool, friendly AMERICANA friend and all.

Jul 27, 2012#140

Magister Moonie

I thought you liked empirical studies? Perhaps it was all a ruse to prove me as a foolish academic. You fell for, it Moonie! Hook, line, and gendered insult

Jul 27, 2012#141

GasBandit

Magister Moonie said:
I thought you liked empirical studies? Perhaps it was all a ruse to prove me as a foolish academic. You fell for, it Moonie! Hook, line, and gendered insult

You provided me a study that showed that girls are treated meaner because they are girls, which is not in dispute, as an assertion for something else.[DOUBLEPOST=1343421283][/DOUBLEPOST]

Jay said:
I've thrown a $20 to a friend to dare him to do something stupid such as dance sexy in front of another guy... I'd never ask a girl friend to do that. No matter how cool they are...

I strategically sculpted a hot dog, put it on a sleeping friend's lips, and took some blurry pictures. There's a good example of a good way to end up in jail if the recipient had been female.

Jul 27, 2012#142

strawman

GasBandit said:
I strategically sculpted a hot dog, put it on a sleeping friend's lips, and took some blurry pictures. There's a good example of a good way to end up in jail if the recipient had been female.

Is it because the laws are too harsh on men who do that to women, or because the laws are not harsh enough on men who do that to men?

Jul 27, 2012#143

Magister Moonie

GasBandit said:
You provided me a study that showed that girls are treated meaner because they are girls, which is not in dispute, as an assertion for something else.[DOUBLEPOST=1343421283][/DOUBLEPOST]

I provided examples that the use of gendered insults provide a vastly different experience for women than it does men. I don't have access to other EMPIRICAL research I've used because it is behind a paywall, but maybe I can find the abstract in a sociology database.

But until you can provide me with a study that proves gendered language is made neuter online, divorce of any implicit or explicit association with women than I think you are full of it!

future response:

It is okay to call people bitch (cf: rage comic; reddit, 2010)

Jul 27, 2012#144

GasBandit

stienman said:
Is it because the laws are too harsh on men who do that to women, or because the laws are not harsh enough on men who do that to men?

From a logical standpoint, I suppose, the latter.

Jul 27, 2012#145

Bumble the Boy Wonder

I'm not gonna fall for it, people. I'm not going to keep reading this thread. Nope.

Nope.

Jul 27, 2012#146

GasBandit

Magister Moonie said:
I provided examples that the use of gendered insults provide a vastly different experience for women than it does men. I don't have access to other EMPIRICAL research I've used because it is behind a paywall, but maybe I can find the abstract in a sociology database.

But until you can provide me with a study that proves gendered language is made neuter online, divorce of any implicit or explicit association with women than I think you are full of it!

future response:

It is okay to call people bitch (cf: rage comic; reddit, 2010)

That is all irrelevant to my assertion, which is (without any commentary on whether it's right or acceptable or not) that to a great many guys, and a majority of them online, "bitch" is an all-purpose go-to insult that doesn't have gender association in the mind of the user. Now, you can argue that how it is received by their targets differs along gender lines, and I won't disagree. And you can think I'm full of it all you like. It hardly places you in the minority around here, and you would be, of course, just as wrong as the rest of them.

Jul 27, 2012#147

Magister Moonie

thank you for reading this sociology chat, if you enjoyed this sociology chat, press 1 now to read about the intervention dynamics of small volunteer groups.

Jul 27, 2012#148

Necronic

As soon as I start hearing options I just immediately hit 0 so I can talk to an operator and get what I want.

Jul 27, 2012#149

Dave

GasBandit said:
And you can think I'm full of it all you like.

Okay.

But we're not wrong.

Jul 27, 2012#150

GasBandit

Magister Moonie said:
thank you for reading this sociology chat, if you enjoyed this sociology chat, press 1 now to read about the intervention dynamics of small volunteer groups.

Jul 27, 2012#151

strawman

Bumble the Boy Wonder said:
I'm not gonna fall for it, people. I'm not going to keep reading this thread. Nope.

Nope.

View attachment 7389

Jul 27, 2012#152

GasBandit

Dave said:
Okay.

But we're not wrong.

Yes. Yes you are.

Jul 27, 2012#153

Dave

Nuh uh!

Jul 27, 2012#154

Jay

GasBandit said:
I strategically sculpted a hot dog, put it on a sleeping friend's lips, and took some blurry pictures. There's a good example of a good way to end up in jail if the recipient had been female.

My friend passed out from drinking. In the middle of the night, I put his hand inside warm water and let mother nature take its course. Then I hid the water and let him deal with it.

Jul 27, 2012#155

SpecialKO

Goddammnit, Charlie! Why does every thread have to become about y-

Jul 27, 2012#156

Charlie Don't Surf

I was trying to be nice in this thread and lolin' at the watermelon joke for the record

Jul 27, 2012#157

Dave

In all of this, though, I must say I am taking the word of actual individual women who are considered "geeky" before I give much weight to what the guys here have to say. So when THEY say Gas is wrong...

Jul 27, 2012#158

Charlie Don't Surf

Dave said:
In all of this, though, I must say I am taking the word of actual individual women who are considered "geeky" before I give much weight to what the guys here have to say. So when THEY say Gas is wrong...

this is a really dumb attitude to have

Jul 27, 2012#159

Gusto

2 things.

1) I'm a semi-geeky guy and I'm nice to all my friends (except sometimes the short ones) regardless of their gender or proximity, and very few people are nice to me and dammit I'm sensitive.

2) Watermelon is delicious.

Jul 27, 2012#160

Dave

Charlie Don't Surf said:
this is a really dumb attitude to have

So you'd take a white guy's attitudes over a black guy's when it comes to race relations? Or a christian's over a muslim's on the topic of religious discrimination in America?[DOUBLEPOST=1343426762][/DOUBLEPOST]And weren't you one of the guys saying that a panel of celibate old white guys talking about reproductive rights of women was stupid?

Jul 27, 2012#161

Charlie Don't Surf

I wouldn't completely disregard those people's opinions. Stuff like gender hurts men and women, and gender roles and gendered insults have caused me a lot of grief. I'm not going to pretend I have it worse than women or know what they're going through, but I can still have an informed opinion

Jul 27, 2012#162

Gusto

I do a pretty funny impression of a geeky dude as informed by cartoon Ryan Scott.

Once again Frank know's what I'm sayin'.

Jul 27, 2012#163

Charlie Don't Surf

Dave said:
]And weren't you one of the guys saying that a panel of celibate old white guys talking about reproductive rights of women was stupid?

Making laws about health concerns that they literally don't have is different than trying to explain privilege and gendered insults, etc etc

Jul 27, 2012#164

Frank

Gusto said:
I do a pretty funny impression of a geeky dude as informed by cartoon Ryan Scott.

Once again Frank know's what I'm sayin'.

MY DEADBEAT SON!

Jul 27, 2012#165

GasBandit

I used to work with a lady who said she refused to have a male doctor because there was no possible way for a man, not even a doctor, to know what was going on in a woman's body because he didn't "have the right parts inside." I incredulously asked her, "so you think all male gynecologists are just legalized charlatans?" Trying to illustrate the absurdity of her stance, and she replied, "Yep!"

Of course, she also believed that putting a snake skin on a barbed wire fence was guaranteed, guaranteed to make it rain. As in, this was a proven physical law that was beyond question. So.

Jul 27, 2012#166

Gusto

GasBandit said:
Of course, she also believed that putting a snake skin on a barbed wire fence was guaranteed, guaranteed to make it rain. As in, this was a proven physical law that was beyond question. So.

I know why it rains.

Jul 27, 2012#167

Necronic

GasBandit said:
I used to work with a lady who said she refused to have a male doctor because there was no possible way for a man, not even a doctor, to know what was going on in a woman's body because he didn't "have the right parts inside." I incredulously asked her, "so you think all male gynecologists are just legalized charlatans?" Trying to illustrate the absurdity of her stance, and she replied, "Yep!"

I'll be honest I would not be cool with going to a female herpetologist.

Jul 27, 2012#168

Chippy

Bubble181 said:
I'll answer that question, Droll, if you answer me another one.

Why/how is it, that geek girls only seem to come in two varieties? The same is, up to a point, true for male geeks as well, but I find it much more pronounced in women. You have the ugly-fat-weat-stained-don't-want-to-go-near-with-a-ten-foot-pole type (who are usually awesome and very caring and fun), and you get the so-hot-it's-not-fair-they'-re-also-smart variety (who, in the case of those I know, when nerd, also turn out to be nice. Dammit! I do know why I always crush on geek girls, admittedly, it seems to be 90% of women who are smart, intelligent and hot at the same time are geeks )

Anyway, besides the entitlement and idiocy of the masses, I think there's also another thing atp lay here - mostly unconscious. Men (a lot of, but not all, women too) want/need a hobby where they can "be themselves". Be it football, coin collecting, D&D, a rock band, going to war or whatever - men have always had/gone and looked for hobbies where they're not under watch of their significant other and/or being judged by people of the other gender. I think a lot of male geeks feel threatened by women coming to their hobby. Female sports fans are often met with similar issues.

Ahahaha you are awful at everything

Jul 27, 2012#169

Ravenpoe

Necronic said:
I'll be honest I would not be cool with going to a female herpetologist.

There are doctors that specialize only in herpes?

Jul 27, 2012#170

Jay

Ravenpoe said:
There are doctors that specialize only in herpes?

And why not?

Other people specialize in that as well.

Jul 27, 2012#171

MindDetective

Why did I read this thread all the way through? Even worse, I'm throwing more kindling on the fire.

Okay, believe it or not, everyone is probably right about broad gender differences/individuality to a fair degree. Basically, there ARE general differences between genders but there is still overlap. Let's simplify what we're talking about and make this about height. Men are generally taller than women, but there are lots of instances of women being taller than men. In these cases, the average difference is not thrown out the window. Men are still more likely to be taller than women, but it is not universally true, just true on average. Here is a nice depiction that demonstrates how there can be a general difference with specific counter-instances of the general difference:

So Gas is talking about the average and Droll and others are providing specific instances as counter examples. Not all men will be equally competitive or assholes to each other and some women will be able to act like that comfortably. But Gas is referring to a byproduct of biological gender differences that, on average, results in attitudinal and behavioral differences. Men are MUCH more likely than women to be felons, commit sexual assault, etc. and do so across almost every culture. This is highly suggestive of a cause for gender differences that is not cultural. We are our biology and you can only do something about the gender differences if you don't ignore that.[DOUBLEPOST=1343437427][/DOUBLEPOST]Also, yay for graphs!

Jul 27, 2012#172

HowDroll

Gas wasn't talking about the average, though. I jumped on him because he said "If I treat ANY woman how I treat my male friends... etc."

There are definitely pronounced differences between genders; I'm not questioning that or trying to say "lawl I'm a dude." What I oppose is the idea that being a geek is a boys' club and that women have to prove themselves to gain membership, which is basically what the CNN article was purporting, or that there are areas that should be at all restricted (gaming being a primary one) because women can't "handle it"; the fact that men are more likely than women to be felons has zero to do with being able to walk around a convention without getting the side-eye from manchildren wondering if I'm only there to "satisfy my hollow ego."

Jul 27, 2012#173

strawman

MindDetective said:

All I got out of your post is that I'm a male with a female height.

:cries:

Jul 27, 2012#174

Vrii

HowDroll said:
Gas wasn't talking about the average, though. I jumped on him because he said "If I treat ANY woman how I treat my male friends... etc."

There are definitely pronounced differences between genders; I'm not questioning that or trying to say "lawl I'm a dude." What I oppose is the idea that being a geek is a boys' club and that women have to prove themselves to gain membership, which is basically what the CNN article was purporting, or that there are areas that should be at all restricted (gaming being a primary one) because women can't "handle it"; the fact that men are more likely than women to be felons has zero to do with being able to walk around a convention without getting the side-eye from manchildren wondering if I'm only there to "satisfy my hollow ego."

I'm guessing there are much different reasons you are/would get stared at by manchildren while you're walking around a convention. "Does she REALLY like this stuff?" may be a thought they're having, but it's probably pretty far down the list.

Jul 27, 2012#175

HowDroll

Vrii said:
I'm guessing there are much different reasons you are/would get stared at by manchildren while you're walking around a convention. "Does she REALLY like this stuff?" may be a thought they're having, but it's probably pretty far down the list.

You know, I would have thought so too, but the CNN article and its subsequent responses made me sorta wonder.

Jul 27, 2012#176

Hailey Knight

Yay for hipster/elitist geeks.

Jul 27, 2012#177

SeraRelm

A horse god dammit!

Jul 27, 2012#178

sixpackshaker

stienman said:
All I got out of your post is that I'm a male with a female height.

:cries:

I am taller than I think...

Jul 27, 2012#179

Ravenpoe

SeraRelm said:
A horse god dammit!

You're just hating on her because she's a geek girl. You're just like all the rest.

Jul 27, 2012#180

Silent Bob

Wow people take their societal labels pretty seriously. I personally think the "geek" label is pretty stupid, and is associated with people who enforce cliches like nerd or jock. It's pretty stupid to assign a pecking order to something so trivial.

I like to refer to myself as just a dude, and usually leave it at that. I think it's silly to conform to dumb labels.

Jul 27, 2012#181

Frank

ITT: Male nerds feel about female nerds the way that I feel about the Big Bang Theory.

Jul 27, 2012#182

Magister Moonie

Frank said:
ITT: Male nerds feel about female nerds the way that I feel about the Big Bang Theory.

That it's just nice to see Blossom acting again?

Jul 27, 2012#183

Bumble the Boy Wonder

I usually only label myself as a "nerd" when I'm tagging photos I take of myself in the mirror while I'm wearing Real3D movie glasses with the lenses popped out.

And I make a duck face.

:notes:

LOL IM SO NERDY :notes:

Jul 28, 2012#184

Bowielee

I don't think I could fall more firmly in the geek category. The geek community is so wide and varied that I'm surprised this is still an isse.

I know personally gay geeks (duh), black geeks, female geeks, male geeks, native american geeks, etc...

It's good to see that there's been a recent backlash about the purile nature of what used to be the majority of the community.

That being said, I can KIND of see where this is coming from. Many of us geeks grew up nerdy kids (and with the anti intellectual atmosphere that the USA propogates, we were appropriately looked down on for it). There's a reason that was the stereotype. It was the thing that allowed us to have our own thing that the popular kids couldn't touch. Now, many of our staples are bleeding into mainstream culture and bringing in the same people who probably would have beat us up in high school, or in the case of pretty girls, girls who wouldn't look at us except to make fun of us.

That also being said, it needs to fucking stop. Geek culture is not the same as it used to be, and geeks need to get over it. What makes me laugh the most about this is that it builds a common ground that wasn't even there before, and that's a good thing, not a bad thing.

Also, with the geek community becoming broader, hopefully it will stem the constant stream of misogyny, homophobia and racism that permeated the culture for quite some time.

Jul 28, 2012#185

Frank

Honestly, I think that the homophobia and racism that gaming culture (Xbox users etc.) is known for is a direct result of the new broader appeal geek shit has.

Jul 28, 2012#186

Bowielee

I disagree, it's been there as long as I can remember it, and I've been part of "the culture" for most of my life (I'm 36).

Jul 28, 2012#187

Frank

Has the geek community always been homophobic and racist (misogynistic, sure)? I never knew of it being so when I was younger (and I'm a bit younger than you at 29). It's modern shooter mostly gaming culture that's so awful.

Jul 28, 2012#188

Bowielee

No, it was always there in the circles I used to hang with. Then again, back then homophobia and racism were pretty prevalent in all aspects of culture.

Jul 28, 2012#189

Silent Bob

Why would anyone willingly associate themselves with a pejorative label to begin with? Geek is synonymous with freak. I guess I'll never understand why someone can't just use the term 'enthusiast' to define what they're passionate about. Instead you have people running around (grown men and women mind you) arguing about what makes them a bigger or proper 'geek'. Doesn't that sound utterly stupid to anyone else? That's like going around claiming to be the biggest yuppie . Why place that dumb label on yourself? It's very high school-like behavior...

Jul 28, 2012#190

LittleSin

I don't think there's anything wrong with the 'geek' label unless you perceive something wrong with it, which I believe you do by the sounds of it. It's a way of relating with other people and finding out if you'll possibly get along in a single word. It's only when people start treating it like a super exclusive club that is becomes a problem.

As for being a woman geek...I get some cracks about it from my husband and friends. Some doubt...but that's because they have decided a geek is someone that games for 12 hours or more a day and play Magic or some shit. My geekiness is different than there's. I know comic books and literature, I adore weird movies and animation. I like DIY things and build and create.

Sometimes there's constant doubting of my 'cred' can get annoying...but I deal. I guess the most sexism I've found in geek culture is in gaming, where any mistake is because you're female.

Jul 28, 2012#191

PatrThom

HowDroll said:
But you do at least realize how fucking stupid this is, right? Especially when someone is targeted for her gender?

As a person who is quite frequently targeted for discrimination because of my gender, I have to say that yes, I do find it stupid. I hold no expectations that it will go away any time soon, though.

--Patrick

Jul 28, 2012#192

strawman

Silent Bob said:
Why would anyone willingly associate themselves with a pejorative label to begin with?

Lots of marginalized groups adopt the pejorative terms and co-opt them in order to take control of their image. Yankee. Gay. There are others. Further, geek may have been pejorative when and where your grew up, but it's certainly not a pejorative now in the larger culture of the US.

Also, this may inform the discussion somewhat:

Jul 28, 2012#193

GasBandit

HowDroll said:
Gas wasn't talking about the average, though. I jumped on him because he said "If I treat ANY woman how I treat my male friends... etc."

And once I realized how you were interpreting that, I amended it to make it clearer. Funny though how everybody else knew what I was saying.

Jul 28, 2012#194

HowDroll

Everybody else knew what you were saying? Necronic agreed with you and proceeded to make even broader statements about gender, and then a few people jumped in and said "yeah, I have male friends who wouldn't be cool with being treated that way, and female friends that I can joke around with." So I really don't know about that.

If you treated every woman the way you treated your male friends, you'd surely end up in the hospital or jail, but if you treated every man that way, the same applies. So I'm really not ultimately sure what the point you're trying to make is or how it's relevant to the thread.

Jul 28, 2012#195

MindDetective

HowDroll said:
Gas wasn't talking about the average, though.

He was, just not very well.

Jul 28, 2012#196

HowDroll

MindDetective said:
He was, just not very well.

Yeah... but I'm not sure a lot of men would be OK with being treated how he treats his male friends, either. If you did a survey, more men than women would undoubtedly get a kick out of being called a cock-guzzling whatever, but a sizable percentage of the population would not.

Jul 28, 2012#197

MindDetective

HowDroll said:
Yeah... but I'm not sure a lot of men would be OK with being treated how he treats his male friends, either. If you did a survey, more men than women would undoubtedly get a kick out of being called a cock-guzzling whatever, but a sizable percentage of the population would not.

He's citing examples from the extreme end of the spectrum (like pointing to the tallest men in the distribution of men) to support his position of the average. It is a flawed argument to an extent. Basically he's pointing out a part of the distribution to which women won't inhabit (there are no women as tall as the tallest men) but this approach is still somewhat misleading since it doesn't acknowledge the overlap in distributions.

Jul 28, 2012#198

Cajungal

I could listen to MD all day. Say more things!

Jul 28, 2012#199

Gusto

Cajungal said:
I could listen to MD all day. Say more things!

This requires your Bone avatar.

Jul 29, 2012#200

PatrThom

Magister Moonie said:
That it's just nice to see Blossom acting again?

Say what you will, but Mayim Bialik has to be among the top 5 geekiest living actresses, possibly even in the top 3. I would be utterly shocked to find otherwise.

--Patrick

Jul 29, 2012#201

Bowielee

PatrThom said:
Say what you will, but Mayim Bialik has to be among the top 5 geekiest living actresses, possibly even in the top 3. I would be utterly shocked to find otherwise.

--Patrick

I'd say probably number 1, really. How many actresses have their Ph.D. s in neuroscience?

Jul 29, 2012#202

Bubble181

Bowielee said:
I'd say probably number 1, really. How many actresses have their Ph.D. s in neuroscience?

What the heck does education have to do with geekiness?

Actually, it can, which just goes to show how completely stupid the "geek" term is. Geek, nerd, dork, as the case may be. They're all (formerly) pejorative terms for the unpopular kids in high school, there doesn't seem to be a lot of consensus on whoch term means what - but it's not all the same.

1. Someone who is interested in "phantastic"/escapist worlds -> Phantasy, science fiction,...
2. Someone who is interested in science or engineering (Scientists, but also model builders,...)
3. Someone who has hobbies such as role playing (Live Action, tabletop,...)
4. Someone who is into "nerd culture"
5. Someone who is socially awkward [possibly "around girls", but I guess I'll get lambasted once again if I say that...I'll just point to Raj from the Big Bang Theory as an example of this stereotype]

There's obviously a lot of overlap between these groups, there's obviously also people who only qualify for some of these. Some people get called a nerd just for being into science, while they're not at all "nerdy" otherwise. Some people may be into science fiction or fantasy, but may be as dumb as a brick. Who's "nerdier"?

Jul 29, 2012#203

Frank

What the fuck is phantasy?

Jul 29, 2012#204

Hailey Knight

Frank said:
What the fuck is phantasy?

Some people learned to spell fantasy from Sega.

Jul 29, 2012#205

Hailey Knight

Charlie Don't Surf said:
am I terrible for never changing my mind or for changing my mind, figure it out

Jul 29, 2012#206

Bubble181

Quotemander Prime said:
Some people learned to spell fantasy from Sega.

And some people have English as their fourth language.

Jul 29, 2012#207

Hailey Knight

Bubble181 said:
And some people have English as their fourth language.

That explains this:

Bubble181 said:
Also, I'm out. I can already tell this is yet another thread where people will joyfully misinterpret what I say until they can paint me as a misogynist/rape apologist/anti-women/whatever, and I'm frankly quite sick of it.

This board has some weird ways of having a conversation.

Tress said:
I'm not saying I think you're a mysogynist/anti-women/whatever. But consider this: if everyone always seems to misinterpret what you say, across different threads, across different days and weeks, maybe you should think about how clearly you are communicating. Which is easier to believe: everyone misinterprets what you say, or that you aren't doing an effective job at expressing your position accurately?

Jul 29, 2012#208

PatrThom

Bowielee said:
I'd say probably number 1, really. How many actresses have their Ph.D. s in neuroscience?

I only say "top 3" because I don't know enough about other actresses to know if there's anyone else on par.
And I said "living" actresses because Hedy Lamarr is already dead.

--Patrick

Jul 29, 2012#209

GasBandit

HowDroll said:
Yeah... but I'm not sure a lot of men would be OK with being treated how he treats his male friends, either. If you did a survey, more men than women would undoubtedly get a kick out of being called a cock-guzzling whatever, but a sizable percentage of the population would not.

Depends on if we're playing a game or not. Undoubtedly bad things would happen were I to walk up on the street to random strangers and start flinging invective.

Jul 29, 2012#210

SeraRelm

I'm back at playing CoH since no one was playing Secret World.

Jul 29, 2012#211

Silent Bob

Bowielee said:
I'd say probably number 1, really. How many actresses have their Ph.D. s in neuroscience?

How does having a PhD make someone a geek?

This whole thread is frankly quite stupid and full of stereotyping.

Jul 29, 2012#212

Bowielee

Cause, like labels are for cans, man...

People, nerds in particular, like to quantify things and label them.

Jul 29, 2012#213

Ravenpoe

SeraRelm said:
I'm back at playing CoH since no one was playing Secret World.

I play The Secret World

Jul 31, 2012#214

BananaHands

Shut up, nerds.

Jul 31, 2012#215

strawman

BananaHands said:
Shut up, nerds.

After seven pages the answer to the thread title is obviously "NO"

Jul 31, 2012#216

GasBandit

Critical Miss attempts to address this issue today. While the sentiment is laudable, the execution is flawed.

Jul 31, 2012#217

Hailey Knight

GasBandit said:
Critical Miss attempts to address this issue today. While the sentiment is laudable, the execution is flawed.

That works more on a sexism angle than what this is about, so I see what you mean.

Jul 31, 2012#218

North_Ranger

Just read through the thread... and I see that geekdom is apparently serious business.

Maybe this is just a reaction to the fact that being a geek/nerd/connoisseur of [insert fandom here] has pretty much gone mainstream. You have awesome sci-fi shows, you have movies like Lord of the Rings, TV series like The Game of Thrones, huge-ass sales of video games, millions worldwide playing WoW... It's no longer an instant social suicide to be considered a geek, and some people in the nerd community might feel threatened by it. Whether due to a sense of elitism or actual fear of social interaction, your guess is as good as mine.

Also, as a non-native speaker I'd like to point out that I use the terms 'nerd' and 'geek' interchangeably. There's only word roughly translating those in Finnish, so I hear no distinction between the two... though I understand that some consider one of them a pejorative even today?

As for geeks of the female gender... Heck, I know a lot of 'em and welcome them. Though I must admit not having seen much of the "ugly girl geek" stereotype you folks keep mentioning. Most nerd ladies I know are actually quite attractive. Were it not for my medical condition, I would actually be hitting on one of the people in my current game group. She's an enthusiastic beginner in tabletop gaming, an avid amateur actor and studying to become a teacher... and single, if I've understood correctly.

And it seems I'm rambling again...

Jul 31, 2012#219

Hailey Knight

The elitism is the big thing. The people having trouble with the influx are essentially geek hipsters, or the "I knew about that before everyone else" guy from Shortpacked.

Jul 31, 2012#220

Ravenpoe

North_Ranger said:
Just read through the thread... and I see that geekdom is apparently serious business.

Maybe this is just a reaction to the fact that being a geek/nerd/connoisseur of [insert fandom here] has pretty much gone mainstream. You have awesome sci-fi shows, you have movies like Lord of the Rings, TV series like The Game of Thrones, huge-ass sales of video games, millions worldwide playing WoW... It's no longer an instant social suicide to be considered a geek, and some people in the nerd community might feel threatened by it. Whether due to a sense of elitism or actual fear of social interaction, your guess is as good as mine.

Also, as a non-native speaker I'd like to point out that I use the terms 'nerd' and 'geek' interchangeably. There's only word roughly translating those in Finnish, so I hear no distinction between the two... though I understand that some consider one of them a pejorative even today?

As for geeks of the female gender... Heck, I know a lot of 'em and welcome them. Though I must admit not having seen much of the "ugly girl geek" stereotype you folks keep mentioning. Most nerd ladies I know are actually quite attractive. Were it not for my medical condition, I would actually be hitting on one of the people in my current game group. She's an enthusiastic beginner in tabletop gaming, an avid amateur actor and studying to become a teacher... and single, if I've understood correctly.

And it seems I'm rambling again...

Nerd and Geek are used nearly interchangeably in English. Both used to be pejoratives, with nerd being similar to a dork, and usually someone that was seen as smart and wimpy, and geek often meaning the same thing, or sometimes just to describe someone that was odd or an outcast. Both of these have earlier origins with different meanings, but they aren't really relative to the current use.

Both have also been co-opted by those that were labeled them as badges of honor. Someone who loves academics might happily declare themselves a nerd, and geek can be applied to anyone that is an enthusiast of something. I've often called my dentist a tooth geek, because goddamn does she love everything about dentistry and the history thereof.

Jul 31, 2012#221

BananaHands

screw you guys she's totally a geek[DOUBLEPOST=1343782010][/DOUBLEPOST]

lol what a geek so embarrassing[DOUBLEPOST=1343782089][/DOUBLEPOST]

omg gross xbox controller and headset? lol might as well be a neckbeard amirite?

Jul 31, 2012#222

Silent Bob

are nerds the new jocks?

Cause that's what I learned watching the 21 Jump Street movie

Jul 31, 2012#223

Necronic

Quotemander Prime said:
The elitism is the big thing. The people having trouble with the influx are essentially geek hipsters, or the "I knew about that before everyone else" guy from Shortpacked.

Mate. Unless they play Dwarf Fortress, without the tilesets, then they aren't nearly as real as I am.

Jul 31, 2012#224

PatrThom

Silent Bob said:
are nerds the new jocks?

They're getting the attention these days, so I suppose they're the one everyone is trying to dethrone.
Soon there will be movies about how jocks heroically overthrow their nerd masters and everyone will be totally cool with that.

--Patrick

Jul 31, 2012#225

Necronic

I heard a good piece on Adam Corolla's podcast once where he was interviewing that one dude that has the Douchebag website. They were trying to figure out what's worse, the Jersey Shore douchebag or the Hipster Douchebag. He made a good argument for why the hipster is far worse. Basically he said that the Jersey shore guy was nothing new. He was a meathead. But, to be fair to them, they had to work out a lot to get into that kind of shape. But the hipster d-bags, all they have to do is copy other people's fashion, have a veneer thin level of understanding of current politics, maintain a decent level of anorexia, and look as unhealthy as possible and they can pull it off. There's no real skill or effort there.

Dunno where the nerd douchebag falls. Probably somewhere between the hipster and this guy

Aug 1, 2012#226

Silent Bob

PatrThom said:
They're getting the attention these days, so I suppose they're the one everyone is trying to dethrone.
Soon there will be movies about how jocks heroically overthrow their nerd masters and everyone will be totally cool with that.

--Patrick

Revenge of the Jocks.

Aug 1, 2012#227

Ravenpoe

PatrThom said:
They're getting the attention these days, so I suppose they're the one everyone is trying to dethrone.
Soon there will be movies about how jocks heroically overthrow their nerd masters and everyone will be totally cool with that.

--Patrick

And then one of the Jocks will rape one of the nerd's girlfriends, and she'll not only be ok with it, but will instantly fall in love with him.

Those movies were fucked up.

Forums

Export thread

Can we please stop this "is she a REAL geek lol" bullshit?

Attachments