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A generic religion thread.

Apr 29, 2021#1

DarkAudit

Because my post in another thread stepped on toes that didn't need or deserve to be stepped on.

This is what set me off last night...

Woman dies after man jumps from parking garage and lands on top of her

The tragedy occurred just a week shy of the woman's 30th birthday.

www.nbcnews.com

Another random senseless deletion. And what I said still stands. "Mysterious ways," my ass. This is not the action of a "loving" god. I don't feel like praising Him. I feel like grabbing Him by the lapels and screaming WHY!?

Apr 29, 2021#2

Dirona

When I have more spoons to spend, I may say more, but for now: your reaction is entirely reasonable, and IMO "mysterious ways" is about as compelling as "a wizard did it."

Apr 29, 2021#3

Ravenpoe

Phew, now that we're in a new thread I can say how much I dislike the Mormon Church. Not individual Mormon people, most of them I have met have been nice, but the church itself is a controlling beast that tries to propogate sexist, homphobic ideology through scummy political means.

Also the watchtower society of Jehovah's witnesses, who are basically the same just not as successful.

Ok, now that that's out of my system, carry on.

Apr 29, 2021#4

blotsfan

Yay I can post in this one.

Alas, I have nothing to say.

Apr 29, 2021#5

phil

Apr 29, 2021#6

Tiger Tsang

Ravenpoe said:
Phew, now that we're in a new thread I can say how much I dislike the Mormon Church. Not individual Mormon people, most of them I have met have been nice, but the church itself is a controlling beast that tries to propogate sexist, homphobic ideology through scummy political means.

Also the watchtower society of Jehovah's witnesses, who are basically the same just not as successful.

Ok, now that that's out of my system, carry on.

As best as I understand it, earlier my Granddaddy was an abusive alcoholic, and judging by my Aunt's choice in people she courted and what I know of my mom's first husband, that would appear to be true. My uncle used the air force to get out and ended up joining the Mormon Church and stayed the fuck out of Western Kentucky. Problem is he traded one brand of insanity for another, and I didn't learn till years later, the "good mormon boy" they used to watch their kids was quite the Chester the Molester.

Apr 29, 2021#7

Ravenpoe

Tiger Tsang said:
As best as I understand it, earlier my Granddaddy was an abusive alcoholic, and judging by my Aunt's choice in people she courted and what I know of my mom's first husband, that would appear to be true. My uncle used the air force to get out and ended up joining the Mormon Church and stayed the fuck out of Western Kentucky. Problem is he traded one brand of insanity for another, and I didn't learn till years later, the "good mormon boy" they used to watch their kids was quite the Chester the Molester.

My mom's side of the family has strong Jehova's Witness ties. She's not a part of the church, but her mom (my grandmother) and several of her sisters are.

My aunt was married to a fairly well known member of the church. He also beat her, to the point where she eventually fled her home to go live with relatives and filed for divorce.

She was excommunicated from the church for divorcing her husband. He's still a high ranking member.

Apr 29, 2021#8

Krisken

My wife grew up JW and can confirm, that religion is all kinds of cult fucked up.

Apr 29, 2021#9

PatrThom

Ravenpoe said:
Ok, now that that's out of my system, carry on.

I feel like this could be expanded to some kind of investigative study.

"Small" associative groups of people are more likely to be caring, outgoing, helpful, generous, welcoming, charitable, etc. to people not in their group. That "small town" mentality.
"Large" associative groups of people are more likely to be exclusionary, dismissive, hostile, and suspicious towards people not in their group. The stereotypical indifference displayed by people in The Big City, for instance.

Now I KNOW that tons of studies have already been done regarding things like The Monkeysphere/Dunbar's Number, the Oreo/marshmallow test, in-group v. out-group, unconscious bias, the Trolley Problem, the Prisoners' Dilemma, "underdog" behavior, and so on that (seek to) show the ways people behave when deciding how to behave around (and towards) other people, and it's no secret that, as the population of a group grows, their charity and acceptance of other "not-us" groups tends to proportionally wane.

But what _I_ want to know is how does this work when the group in question has formally codified generosity/charity/etc into their founding ethos? What happens to the members of a political party, a religion, an organization, a corporation, a governing body, or any other group which could be represented by a circle on a Venn diagram as its population grows? What happens when the growing innate desire to shun outsiders starts to grind up against their conspicuously documented contractual obligation to be nice? How does this conflict get reconciled?

I want to see an exploration of why devout religious people thought indulgences and the Crusades did not conflict with established tenets, why democratically elected leaders turned around and sought to suppress certain voters, and why people seem to think that 300% turnover at a chain fast food restaurant that is supposed to be some model of efficiency is "normal."

[tl;dr:] But most of all, I want someone to prove my postulate wrong that, 100% of the time, all this "Man's inhumanity to Man" shit happens because some high-ranking individual (or cabal of individuals) seeks to game (or tweak) an existing system in order to consolidate wealth/power/influence for themselves. So am I promoting conspiracy theory? Not exactly. What I'm really asking is at what point/size does an associative group begin to either attract (or else spontaneously generate) members who work to steer the direction/actions of that group in order to achieve/enact their own personal goals EVEN WHEN those goals are demonstrably harmful/destructive to other members of the group?

--Patrick

Apr 29, 2021#10

Dave

My view on the whole religion thing:

As ridiculous as I believe it to be, if you are religious or a believer, more power to you. My daughter is religious, most of my family is, my father in law has rediscovered religion since the death of his wife - mostly for the social aspect. Believing in something bigger than yourself is not inherently a bad thing. ORGANIZED religion, on the other hand, is in my opinion an anathema to society as a whole and a danger to advancing society past the dark ages.

This is NOT a condemnation of a specific religion and some offshoots actually try and be worthy, but for the most part organized religions exist more to control and consolidate power rather to be a driving force of good in the world. And I've found people who identify with organized religions TEND to be awful people who smugly believe that they are better and that anyone not exactly like them are beneath them, probably because they think different people are going to hell. No, @Dirona , this is not an attack on you. I think you'd probably agree with me about MOST organized religions. Political pressuring, sexual abuse, hypocritical double standards, rampant racism, etc. There are little churches here and there who try and serve their communities, but they are few and far in between.

For the record, I also feel militant atheists can fuck off as well. Talk about smug superiority. Atheists have it in spades. Someone says, "Bless you." you don't go berserk and denigrate them for being polite according to societal norms. You're not being clever or smart, you're just being a dick.

Apr 29, 2021#11

blotsfan

Dave said:
For the record, I also feel militant atheists can fuck off as well.

Dave said:
Someone says, "Bless you." you don't go berserk and denigrate them for being polite according to societal norms. You're not being clever or smart, you're just being a dick.

Apr 29, 2021#12

Dave

I can't argue with xkcd.

But note I did say militant atheists. Religious people or atheists who just shut their mouths and exist are cool.

Apr 29, 2021#13

PatrThom

Dave said:
Religious people or atheists who just shut their mouths and exist are cool.

That just brings us back to the Paradox of Tolerance again.

--Patrick

Apr 29, 2021#14

Dirona

Dave said:
... And I've found people who identify with organized religions TEND to be awful people who smugly believe that they are better and that anyone not exactly like them are beneath them, probably because they think different people are going to hell. No, @Dirona , this is not an attack on you....

If you hadn't tagged me, I wouldn't have assumed I was related to this at all. But since you did, my reaction is more:

For what it's worth, I've tended to find that folk who overly link their identity to any group tend to be obnoxious about it.

Apr 29, 2021#15

PatrThom

Dirona said:
I've tended to find that folk who overly link their identity to any group tend to be obnoxious about it.

This RIGHT HERE, ladies and gentlemen.
The idea that ANYONE would voluntarily surrender their entire individual identity/existence over to another is anathema to me.

--Patrick

Apr 29, 2021#16

Dave

Dirona said:
If you hadn't tagged me, I wouldn't have assumed I was related to this at all. But since you did, my reaction is more:

For what it's worth, I've tended to find that folk who overly link their identity to any group tend to be obnoxious about it.

I just know of your vocation and wanted you to know that my rather blanket condemnation of organized religions had some caveats. I mean, if you came in and said all IT analysts were idiots who fuck around online all day I'd certainly think you were including me. Which you would be.

Apr 29, 2021#17

Dirona

Dave said:
I just know of your vocation and wanted you to know that my rather blanket condemnation of organized religions had some caveats. I mean, if you came in and said all IT analysts were idiots who fuck around online all day I'd certainly think you were including me. Which you would be.

Aaaah, I gotcha. (Also, I used to be an IT Analyst, that was literally my job title!)

Nah - I know that a lot of folk (especially US-ians) have extremely negative perceptions of religion, especially Christianity. And are often particularly critical of the shitty "leaders" in those groups. Not without good reason. But I also know that I ain't about that life.

For me, it's kind of like white people jokes - yes, I am part of that group; but I also try damn hard to not fall into the common pitfalls.

Apr 29, 2021#18

grub

I've been a member of a few churches that look inward and seem to exist for only their (and their members) benefit. My current church spends their time helping in appreciable ways in the community.

The youth group fundraises for a women's shelter, not for a feel good missions trip. Over covid we have built a tiny house for a recovery center in Mexico. Every Christmas we hold a banquet for the homeless and give them blankets and other supplies.

The strange thing is that both my current church and the one I grew up in are the same denomination, but the focus is different. The one I grew up at in Kelowna was very condescending (just like the rest of the town) and just tried to be a Canadian megachurch. My current one in Abbotsford's focus is helping the community.

Tldr, the issue is humility of the leadership and whether they feel they should help the community (wwjd) or grow their own power.

Apr 29, 2021#19

grub

As for the loving God wouldn't let bad things happen. I don't have good answers, anyone who does is probably wrong.

Apr 29, 2021#20

Shawn

I'm agnostic. I don't readily deny the existence of God but I don't practice any religions. I grew up Catholic but all I remember is the longest and most boring hours of my life were on Sundays.
I think my parents, who were also raised Catholic, felt obligated to raise me Catholic too. Pretty much the moment I was out of the house they stopped going to church themselves. My perspective of God is completely based on logic and reason. While I can't logically denounce the existence of God I do feel pretty strongly on the following points IF God does in fact exist. I will refer to God as a he in the points just for simplicity.

He is a man of science. The Galaxy is consistent (mostly). If God did create everything he was pretty clear on the rules of how it would all come together.
He does not get involved. There is nothing to suggest that God has done something that could only be described as "an act of God". He's not a kid shaking the ant farm. Heck, he's not even a kid feeding the fish in a bowl. He set up a self-reliant system and seems perfectly content with watching us without interfering. Only hand written stories remain of "acts of God" with no physical proof that those events ever occurred.
Similar to the last point there is no "God acts in mysterious ways" elements. Things that have happened happen because of either forces of nature or the free will of man. Maybe there is some sort of cosmic irony to the thing that happens, or maybe "karma" or whatever, but the even larger number of occurrences that don't fall under these simply just says that the ones that do are just coincidences.
God likely doesn't care what religion you worship. So many religions seem to imply they are the right one and that God will punish those who do not worship him in that way. Well you have to consider the number of people born in places untouched by that religion. They may not even have a choice in how to worship. If there is a God, and he does punish those who do not worship him correctly regardless of their situation, then God is an asshole.

Speaking of Religions. Religions as a concept are great in my opinion. Because in concept the idea of a religion is to unify people. A common theme in most religions is "be kind to one another" and that's fantastic.
The problem is that some of these religions also seem to narrow that theme to "be kind to one another... so long as they meet our requirements". So again this either means that God is an asshole, OR, and more likely, people in charge of religions can be assholes.

Apr 29, 2021#21

Cog

I also consider myself agnostic, or at least technicly christian. I don't follow any catholic ritual, which is kinda hard because Vero is very catholic. She is teaching Gaby about God as Jesus. I told Gaby that praying is ok, also it's ok not to pray. The thing it's not ok is to pretend to pray, and pretend to be religious. The reason I can't consider myself atheist it's that I'm sure that the only not hypocrital alternatives to believing in a higher power are hedonism or nihilism.

Apr 29, 2021#22

jwhouk

The church I attend got picketed by Westboro Baptist. On Super Bowl Sunday.

No one saw them, as a fog descended on the road the church is located in, in Gilbert.

Apr 30, 2021#23

Bubble181

Cog said:
The reason I can't consider myself atheist it's that I'm sure that the only not hypocrital alternatives to believing in a higher power are hedonism or nihilism.

I disagree. I don't have time to go too deep into this, but do you mean that, without a God/Heaven/Hell/whatnot you cannot see a good way to build a personal moral compass, and develop a society based on mutual understanding, acceptance, etc? The idea of the external, pushed-down, enforced "morality" based on comparing actions to texts from 2000 years ago, interpreted by a bunch of rules lawyers and medieval sharpshooters to bend and twist every posible rule is one of the big reasons I'm against organized religions on a large scale.
Not everyone has the same moral guidelines or strength, but teaching people to think for themselves and understand how or why to behave in a society is a far better foundation for cooperation and cohavitation than seemingly-arbitrary rules enforced by an all-male hierarchic system of inquisition and power.

Apr 30, 2021#24

Ravenpoe

Bubble181 said:
I disagree. I don't have time to go too deep into this, but do you mean that, without a God/Heaven/Hell/whatnot you cannot see a good way to build a personal moral compass, and develop a society based on mutual understanding, acceptance, etc? The idea of the external, pushed-down, enforced "morality" based on comparing actions to texts from 2000 years ago, interpreted by a bunch of rules lawyers and medieval sharpshooters to bend and twist every posible rule is one of the big reasons I'm against organized religions on a large scale.
Not everyone has the same moral guidelines or strength, but teaching people to think for themselves and understand how or why to behave in a society is a far better foundation for cooperation and cohavitation than seemingly-arbitrary rules enforced by an all-male hierarchic system of inquisition and power.

I'd also like to point out that nihilism doesn't mean you don't believe in morality

Apr 30, 2021#25

Bubble181

Ravenpoe said:
I'd also like to point out that nihilism doesn't mean you don't believe in morality

Nor hedonism, strictly speaking. But if I'm not interpreting them as moral styles, then I'm at a loss of how believing in a God yes or no would change your position on the social structure.

Apr 30, 2021#26

Cog

Bubble181 said:
I disagree. I don't have time to go too deep into this, but do you mean that, without a God/Heaven/Hell/whatnot you cannot see a good way to build a personal moral compass, and develop a society based on mutual understanding, acceptance, etc? The idea of the external, pushed-down, enforced "morality" based on comparing actions to texts from 2000 years ago, interpreted by a bunch of rules lawyers and medieval sharpshooters to bend and twist every posible rule is one of the big reasons I'm against organized religions on a large scale.
Not everyone has the same moral guidelines or strength, but teaching people to think for themselves and understand how or why to behave in a society is a far better foundation for cooperation and cohavitation than seemingly-arbitrary rules enforced by an all-male hierarchic system of inquisition and power.

My point isn't about religion. I believe that the human condition doesn't make sense. But it makes even less sense without "something to believe in" It's doesn't even have to be a god. It could be a philosophy, a political party, or whatever that makes you do what you do. Even the "social contract" can be that something to believe in. Always it's going to be something external. The people around you are always the ones that are going to say if you are a good person. If you really want to be against a set of values, you could be against any set of values. It's not that I think everybody should behave that way. I'm mostly all about helping and understanding each other, but in the end, in the back of my mind, I can't stop thinking about how it doesn't make any sense.

Jul 6, 2021#27

PatrThom

Dave said:
for the most part organized religions exist more to control and consolidate power rather to be a driving force of good in the world. And I've found people who identify with organized religions TEND to be awful people who smugly believe that they are better and that anyone not exactly like them are beneath them

Resurrecting this portion of your comment after seeing this story:

Hobby Lobby Places July 4 Newspaper Ad: 'One Nation Under God'

The newspaper ad Hobby Lobby bought was also shared by its official social media pages and hosted on the company's website.

www.snopes.com

Yes, really.

Now I don't care WHICH religion (if any) it is that Hobby Lobby wants to champion, but I draw a line at seeking to enshrine ANY religion as our nation's One True Religion, and am calling out this public declaration of which "side" they're on for what I see it to be, which is a call to arms, an appeal to anyone who sees Hobby Lobby as a role model* to get out there and do whatever they can to tip the scales of government representatives towards an "unofficial" Theocracy (with a fully official one to follow shortly thereafter, I'm sure). I know I've said this sort of thing before, but now Hobby Lobby needs to go on that list. They've tipped their hand, showed their face, and now they need to be shown the door.

--Patrick
*This is a separate issue, far beyond the scope of this post, but I'll just say that I believe Hobby Lobby does not conduct themselves in a manner that anyone should seek to emulate.

Jul 6, 2021#28

DarkAudit

PatrThom said:
*This is a separate issue, far beyond the scope of this post, but I'll just say that I believe Hobby Lobby does not conduct themselves in a manner that anyone should seek to emulate.

They are a known financier of terrorist organizations. They type even the fox noise crowd and cheeto cultists would call terrorist.

Hobby Lobby Purchased Thousands of Ancient Artifacts Smuggled Out of Iraq

The craft-supply giant, which will open its Museum of the Bible in D.C. this fall, will pay a $3 million settlement.

www.theatlantic.com

Feb 6, 2022#29

PatrThom

PatrThom said:
I draw a line at seeking to enshrine ANY religion as our nation's One True Religion

Oklahoma bill would fine teachers $10K for teaching anything that contradicts religion

Republican Senator Rob Standridge introduced a bill that would allow people to sue teachers for taking an anti-religious perspective.

www.deseret.com

I feel like this could develop into one of those "unintended consequences" kind of problems.
Does this mean teachers will not be allowed to say that it's wrong to cut out the hearts of an entire losing basketball team? They can't suggest that it's okay to eat pork or beef? Will they be able to commit to whether there is only one true God or whether God is actually an infinite collection of aspects, or all of the above simultaneously? Worse yet, how can they reconcile the Buddhist drive to seek knowledge and be held accountable for one's actions while simultaneously not being allowed to be critical of any world religion, past or present?

--Patrick

Feb 6, 2022#30

Krisken

How to ensure history isnt taught.

Feb 6, 2022#31

Tress

Krisken said:
How to ensure history isnt taught.

That’s the idea! These people would love a North Korea-style theocracy.

Feb 6, 2022#32

PatrThom

Krisken said:
How to ensure history isnt taught.

There you go. No teaching anything more than 50 years old!
…with an exception for stuff that’s copyrighted, of course, since that could conceivably go back an additional 20 (or more!) years.

—Patrick

Feb 7, 2022#33

blotsfan

PatrThom said:
Does this mean teachers will not be allowed to say that it's wrong to cut out the hearts of an entire losing basketball team? They can't suggest that it's okay to eat pork or beef? Will they be able to commit to whether there is only one true God or whether God is actually an infinite collection of aspects, or all of the above simultaneously? Worse yet, how can they reconcile the Buddhist drive to seek knowledge and be held accountable for one's actions while simultaneously not being allowed to be critical of any world religion, past or present?

It means Evangelical Christianity.

Feb 7, 2022#34

PatrThom

blotsfan said:
It means Evangelical Christianity.

I mean, I know that's their intent, but unless they come right out and say that (and thereby openly admit that they are trying to establish a single, official national religion), any law written to protect "religion" is going to absolutely bite them right in those dangling unintended consequences I alluded to earlier.

--Patrick

Feb 7, 2022#35

jwhouk

Of course, these are the same people who don't get the irony of Moses dropping the law on the Israelites when they entered the promised land, and then only a few centuries later BAM they're all in exile because they played fast and loose with that law.

Feb 7, 2022#36

figmentPez

PatrThom said:
I mean, I know that's their intent, but unless they come right out and say that (and thereby openly admit that they are trying to establish a single, official national religion), any law written to protect "religion" is going to absolutely bite them right in those dangling unintended consequences I alluded to earlier.

Only if the judges aren't in on it. If the judges are on their side, the the law means whatever they want it to mean, and they don't have to come right out and say it.

May 24, 2022#37

PatrThom

Well, as of today...it isn't.

This is not a Church of God, this is a Church of Hate.

--Patrick

May 24, 2022#38

Frank

He claims he renounced his tax exempt status.

Gonna need some proof of that.

May 24, 2022#39

GasBandit

Frank said:
He claims he renounced his tax exempt status.

Gonna need some proof of that.

Sounds like a "You can't fire me, I quit!" situation

May 24, 2022#40

PatrThom

GasBandit said:
Sounds like a "You can't fire me, I quit!" situation

Many people are describing it exactly as that.
One of the (many) reddit threads on the subject had a link to (the public record copy of) the filing, but I can't find it now because threads on this subject have multiplied like loaves and fishes.

--Patrick

May 24, 2022#41

figmentPez

PatrThom said:
Many people are describing it exactly as that.
One of the (many) reddit threads on the subject had a link to (the public record copy of) the filing, but I can't find it now because threads on this subject have multiplied like loaves and fishes.

I don't care about the filing. I want to see proof that he's actually paid taxes, and that the people who give money to him have stopped claiming those "donations" as exempt on their taxes.

May 24, 2022#42

PatrThom

figmentPez said:
I don't care about the filing. I want to see proof that he's actually paid taxes, and that the people who give money to him have stopped claiming those "donations" as exempt on their taxes.

I will also accept Mr. Locke stroking out on stage during a sermon in return for taking the name of the LORD in vain as an acceptable substitute.

--Patrick

Jun 24, 2022#43

MindDetective

The Evangelical Church Is Breaking Apart

Christians must reclaim Jesus from his church.

www.theatlantic.com

A long read, but I would be interested in @Dirona 's experience.

Jun 24, 2022#44

blotsfan

Any christian who is a good person is a good person in spite of the fact that they're christian, not because of it.

Jun 24, 2022#45

PatrThom

blotsfan said:
Any Christian who is a good person is a good person in spite of the fact that they're Christian, not because of it.

This technically remains true if you swap in any other capitalized adjective, too.

--Patrick

Jun 24, 2022#46

blotsfan

Congrats, not only is your pedantry its usual level of annoying, its not even correct.

Jun 24, 2022#47

Krisken

Can we not be sniping douchebags after taking another step toward the shittiest downfall of a country? It's like watching a ship going down but the family just can't help but be super shitty to each other in the final moments just before their deaths.

Jun 24, 2022#48

evilmike

Krisken said:
Can we not be sniping douchebags after taking another step toward the shittiest downfall of a country? It's like watching a ship going down but the family just can't help but be super shitty to each other in the final moments just before their deaths.

Thank you.

Jun 24, 2022#49

PatrThom

Krisken said:
Can we not be sniping douchebags after taking another step toward the shittiest downfall of a country?

Apparently not.

—Patrick

Jun 24, 2022#50

Krisken

PatrThom said:
Apparently not.

—Patrick

We can, it's just a reminder. When things are worst, maybe let's not shit on our allies.

Jun 24, 2022#51

PatrThom

This may seem hard to believe (harder for some than others), but this was not pedantry so much as indicating which specific words in the sentence I was referring to, as well as what kinds of words to substitute.

—Patrick

Jun 24, 2022#52

Terrik

It's the Halforums way. Our numbers didn't dwindle to almost nothing for no reason, after all.

Jun 24, 2022#53

Krisken

Terrik said:
It's the Halforums way. Our numbers didn't dwindle to almost nothing for no reason, after all.

We're a brutal kind.

Jun 25, 2022#54

Dirona

MindDetective said:
The Evangelical Church Is Breaking Apart

Christians must reclaim Jesus from his church.

www.theatlantic.com

A long read, but I would be interested in @Dirona 's experience.

I will take a look and give this some thought. I've only skimmed the article so far.

Jun 25, 2022#55

evilmike

From the Summary of General Convention Resolutions on Abortion and Women's Reproductive Health:

At the General Convention in 2018, The Episcopal Church called for “women’s reproductive health and reproductive health procedures to be treated as all other medical procedures.” The Convention declared “that equitable access to women’s health care, including women’s reproductive health care, is an integral part of a woman’s struggle to assert her dignity and worth as a human being.”

We continue to advocate that “legislating abortions will not address the root of the problem. We therefore express our deep conviction that any proposed legislation on the part of national or state governments regarding abortions must take special care to see that the individual conscience is respected, and that the responsibility of individuals to reach informed decisions in this matter is acknowledged and honored as the position of this Church.”

The Church also sees education as an essential component of engaging with issues relating to family planning, child spacing, adoption, infertility and abortion. The global Anglican Communion, of which The Episcopal Church is a member, first supported the use of contraceptives in 1930, and as Christians we affirm responsible family planning. General Convention policy states “it is the responsibility of our congregations to assist their members in becoming informed concerning the spiritual, physiological and psychological aspects of sex and sexuality.” The Book of Common Prayer affirms that “the birth of a child is a joyous and solemn occasion in the life of a family. It is also an occasion for rejoicing in the Christian community” (p 440).

Jun 29, 2022#56

PatrThom

2 NC workers fired for not joining company's daily Christian devotionals, EEOC says

The plaintiffs, one an atheist and the other an agnostic, say the daily prayer meetings went against their respective religious beliefs.

abc11.com

I guess this will restart the argument about whether actively following no religion can itself be considered "religious devotion" and therefore protected.

--Patrick

Jul 4, 2022#57

Dirona

Dirona said:
I will take a look and give this some thought. I've only skimmed the article so far.

So that took a bit to get around to.

tl;dr - Basically, buddy makes some solid points that folks within the industry (can I call religion/church an industry? that's a whole other can of something, but I'm going to stick with it) have been saying and seeing for years.

Some short notes:
The conservative (Christian nationalists in the US) side of evangelical Christianity is getting more reactionary and arguably more vicious as time passes. This has been a trend for probably at least a decade at this point.
The brief point about clergy being on the receiving end of atrocious behaviour by church members is very very fucking accurate, and not limited to evangelical churches. In my circles (the far left end of Christian churches and clergy) it's generally chalked up to shrinking budgets and financial stresses, but this does cause me to wonder what proportion of this bullying (at best) is also ideologically based.

Some 15 years ago when I was doing Religious Studies (not insider church work, but more sociology of religion stuff), there were theories going around that the evangelical church as we saw it at the time in Canada and the US would probably not survive another generation. It's had 1-2 generations go through, but the grand-kids aren't going, and the 2nd generation - the kids who are now adults aren't going as much as their parents. The theory was that as a group the evangelical church would have to change. And, well, I guess it has. In the States at least. Canada hasn't gotten as bad. I think. Yet. I do suspect it is only a matter of time though.

The points around Covid just decimating religious communities is absolutely correct. In my circles, we've been saying that the pandemic simply sped up the trends we were already seeing. Diminishing numbers and tighter budgets and different ministry needs being the big areas.

Where I think the author looses their footing is the claim that (evangelical) Christianity has become a political religion. Christianity has always been political. Turn the other cheek, give them your coat also, who is my neighbour, this is your mother, the last shall be first, etc etc etc.
But the sort of politics that the evangelical church tends to lean towards - prosperity gospel, purity culture, cult of charismatic leaders - is not (IMO) reflected in scripture, and certainly not in the Gospels.
All that aside, the US and Canada are not theocracies. Nor should they become such.

The argument that "evangelicals simply refuse to let their church form them or their beliefs" could be levelled at many many churches.

[Aside: "many churches aren't focused on [teaching] at all. They focus instead on entertainment..." Before I was ordained, I worked as a student minister for 2 years under the supervision of a fully ordained minister. In one of our required conversations, he asked me "what is the purpose/focus of worship/Sunday morning?" His response was 'entertainment' mine was 'education.']

"The churches have barely better than a snowball's chance in hell of shaping most people's lives." - Yup. And that's even among those people who are interested in what faith has to say in the first place. If in the marketplace of ideas you get 1 hour of 'love your neighbour and don't be a dick' per week, coupled with 20 hours of 'grad her by the pussy,' one of those is going to get drowned out real quick.

"For many Christians, their politics has become more of an identity marker than their faith." This makes me sad. But I do know that political tribalism is massive in the US, so I can't say I'm surprised. What worries me is the intertwining of these two areas though, because with them woven together they will become even more unassailable, unquestionable, and probably unreasonable.

"How many people look at churches in America these days and see the face of Jesus?" Even within my own denomination, it's a scant few.

The discussion of rejecting cultural influences, and the belief that that's even possible was vastly entertaining. (the points from Du Mez.)
Though it also was a good reminder that leading from (and to) a place of fear is a unhealthy at best.

The conversations with the 15 clergy is exactly what I would expect to find. Up to the pandemic, clergy were (on the whole) underpaid and overworked and stressed out. Now? All of that, plus the political bullshit, plus tighter budgets? It's worse. So so so much worse.

There is a twenty year old rift in my own denomination between left-leaning clergy and their congregations. It has been growing consistently for 20 years. That some evangelical clergy are starting to notice similar dynamics surprises me only in the amount of time it took to become apparent.

The Barna group study cited in the later sections is one that I've cited in my own research and lectures. Because of those 29% of clergy that have given 'real, serious consideration to quitting in the last year' the percentage goes up if you are young, or female, or mainline Protestant (as opposed to evangelical).

I would also echo the pain that I head in this article near the end. - "For those of us who have made Christianity central to our lives, the pain of this moment is watching those who claim to follow Jesus do so much to distort who he really was." [I am fully aware that this brings up claims of 'what is truth,' but it doesn't make the pain of watching something near and dear to my heart and soul get ripped apart for the sake of a few folks' wallets.]

Jul 4, 2022#58

MindDetective

Dirona said:
So that took a bit to get around to.

tl;dr - Basically, buddy makes some solid points that folks within the industry (can I call religion/church an industry? that's a whole other can of something, but I'm going to stick with it) have been saying and seeing for years.

Some short notes:
The conservative (Christian nationalists in the US) side of evangelical Christianity is getting more reactionary and arguably more vicious as time passes. This has been a trend for probably at least a decade at this point.
The brief point about clergy being on the receiving end of atrocious behaviour by church members is very very fucking accurate, and not limited to evangelical churches. In my circles (the far left end of Christian churches and clergy) it's generally chalked up to shrinking budgets and financial stresses, but this does cause me to wonder what proportion of this bullying (at best) is also ideologically based.

Some 15 years ago when I was doing Religious Studies (not insider church work, but more sociology of religion stuff), there were theories going around that the evangelical church as we saw it at the time in Canada and the US would probably not survive another generation. It's had 1-2 generations go through, but the grand-kids aren't going, and the 2nd generation - the kids who are now adults aren't going as much as their parents. The theory was that as a group the evangelical church would have to change. And, well, I guess it has. In the States at least. Canada hasn't gotten as bad. I think. Yet. I do suspect it is only a matter of time though.

The points around Covid just decimating religious communities is absolutely correct. In my circles, we've been saying that the pandemic simply sped up the trends we were already seeing. Diminishing numbers and tighter budgets and different ministry needs being the big areas.

Where I think the author looses their footing is the claim that (evangelical) Christianity has become a political religion. Christianity has always been political. Turn the other cheek, give them your coat also, who is my neighbour, this is your mother, the last shall be first, etc etc etc.
But the sort of politics that the evangelical church tends to lean towards - prosperity gospel, purity culture, cult of charismatic leaders - is not (IMO) reflected in scripture, and certainly not in the Gospels.
All that aside, the US and Canada are not theocracies. Nor should they become such.

The argument that "evangelicals simply refuse to let their church form them or their beliefs" could be levelled at many many churches.

[Aside: "many churches aren't focused on [teaching] at all. They focus instead on entertainment..." Before I was ordained, I worked as a student minister for 2 years under the supervision of a fully ordained minister. In one of our required conversations, he asked me "what is the purpose/focus of worship/Sunday morning?" His response was 'entertainment' mine was 'education.']

"The churches have barely better than a snowball's chance in hell of shaping most people's lives." - Yup. And that's even among those people who are interested in what faith has to say in the first place. If in the marketplace of ideas you get 1 hour of 'love your neighbour and don't be a dick' per week, coupled with 20 hours of 'grad her by the pussy,' one of those is going to get drowned out real quick.

"For many Christians, their politics has become more of an identity marker than their faith." This makes me sad. But I do know that political tribalism is massive in the US, so I can't say I'm surprised. What worries me is the intertwining of these two areas though, because with them woven together they will become even more unassailable, unquestionable, and probably unreasonable.

"How many people look at churches in America these days and see the face of Jesus?" Even within my own denomination, it's a scant few.

The discussion of rejecting cultural influences, and the belief that that's even possible was vastly entertaining. (the points from Du Mez.)
Though it also was a good reminder that leading from (and to) a place of fear is a unhealthy at best.

The conversations with the 15 clergy is exactly what I would expect to find. Up to the pandemic, clergy were (on the whole) underpaid and overworked and stressed out. Now? All of that, plus the political bullshit, plus tighter budgets? It's worse. So so so much worse.

There is a twenty year old rift in my own denomination between left-leaning clergy and their congregations. It has been growing consistently for 20 years. That some evangelical clergy are starting to notice similar dynamics surprises me only in the amount of time it took to become apparent.

The Barna group study cited in the later sections is one that I've cited in my own research and lectures. Because of those 29% of clergy that have given 'real, serious consideration to quitting in the last year' the percentage goes up if you are young, or female, or mainline Protestant (as opposed to evangelical).

I would also echo the pain that I head in this article near the end. - "For those of us who have made Christianity central to our lives, the pain of this moment is watching those who claim to follow Jesus do so much to distort who he really was." [I am fully aware that this brings up claims of 'what is truth,' but it doesn't make the pain of watching something near and dear to my heart and soul get ripped apart for the sake of a few folks' wallets.]

I wanted to react with several reacts here but you get a hug and a reply. Thanks for giving your thoughts on this.

Jul 5, 2022#59

PatrThom

Dirona said:
I would also echo the pain that I head in this article near the end. - "For those of us who have made Christianity central to our lives, the pain of this moment is watching those who claim to follow Jesus do so much to distort who he really was."

^This.
I remember thinking something similar when attending my grandfather's funeral mass. When communion time came around, the priest announced, "Only those in a state of Grace may take communion." This struck me as...exclusionary.

--Patrick

Jul 5, 2022#60

bhamv3

PatrThom said:
^This.
I remember thinking something similar when attending my grandfather's funeral mass. When communion time came around, the priest announced, "Only those in a state of Grace may take communion." This struck me as...exclusionary.

--Patrick

This reminds me of something I might have mentioned before. My wife and I got married in a Presbyterian church near my grandparents' house. However, neither of us was Presbyterian. When we went down to talk to the minister about whether we could use the church for our wedding, he said sure. He also mentioned that his predecessor, an elderly minister who'd served at the church for decades, forbade anyone who hadn't been baptized in that church to use it for weddings. But when the new minister came along, he changed this policy to be more welcoming. His reasoning was that being exclusionary only causes barriers instead of inclusiveness, and doesn't attract new members to the church.

Given that my wife still attends that church weekly, I'd say his philosophy was correct.

Jul 5, 2022#61

figmentPez

PatrThom said:
^This.
I remember thinking something similar when attending my grandfather's funeral mass. When communion time came around, the priest announced, "Only those in a state of Grace may take communion." This struck me as...exclusionary.

1 Corinthians 11:29 "For the one who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not properly recognize the body."

This verse is taken by many Christians to mean that taking communion is harmful to anyone who does it when not in a proper state to do so. (I'm sure there are a wide range of beliefs as to what the exact requirements are.) Some denominations/congregations guard communion more closely than others, but there are a lot who think there is good reason that communion should only be taken by believers.

In at least some cases this is exclusionary in the same way that keeping someone who has a peanut allergy from eating peanut butter cookies is exclusionary. Granted the "cookies" in question may or may not have completely imaginary "peanuts" in them, depending on whose beliefs are correct, but the motivation can be protection, not elitism.

Jul 6, 2022#62

mikerc

figmentPez said:
In at least some cases this is exclusionary in the same way that keeping someone who has a peanut allergy from eating peanut butter cookies is exclusionary. Granted the "cookies" in question may or may not have completely imaginary "peanuts" in them, depending on whose beliefs are correct, but the motivation can be protection, not elitism.

Even if this is true this is still a problem for the church. Worst case scenario they're being elitist & exclusionary. Best case they think communion is potentially harmful to some people so don't offer it to them, except because they're not explaining why they're not letting them take it people - like @PatrThom above - think they're being exclusionary. This is not conducive to getting those people to come back to church.

Jul 6, 2022#63

Ravenpoe

mikerc said:
Even if this is true this is still a problem for the church. Worst case scenario they're being elitist & exclusionary. Best case they think communion is potentially harmful to some people so don't offer it to them, except because they're not explaining why they're not letting them take it people - like @PatrThom above - think they're being exclusionary. This is not conducive to getting those people to come back to church.

Only God can judge people. God, or people who believe they know how God would judge someone and act on that as if it were true, and see no irony in this stance.

Jul 6, 2022#64

Bubble181

Something something Pharisees something something Temple whip action something something.

Jul 6, 2022#65

figmentPez

mikerc said:
Even if this is true this is still a problem for the church. Worst case scenario they're being elitist & exclusionary. Best case they think communion is potentially harmful to some people so don't offer it to them, except because they're not explaining why they're not letting them take it people - like @PatrThom above - think they're being exclusionary. This is not conducive to getting those people to come back to church.

You have part of a point, but I think you're still being unfair. Religious leaders should do their best to make their practices informative, especially at events that will attract those outside their faith. However, the purpose of communion is for believers to gather together and remember the sacrifice Christ made. It's never been a tradition that's supposed to include non-believers. If people want to partake, they can join the group.

"Wah! The marching band wouldn't me join them on the field, that's exclusionary! They didn't explain to me that they were performing a choreographed routine, they just expected me to know. I think anyone who wants should be able to march onto the field at half-time and take part if they want to. They must be part of some cult that thinks they're better than everyone else. It's not very conductive to getting people to come back if they don't let everyone on the field."

Jul 6, 2022#66

Tinwhistler

My grandparents, when they were still living, were members Church of Christ. I used to attend in the summers when I visited them. The rule there is you did not partake in communion unless you'd been baptized, and you did not get baptized until you were old enough to be able to understand and state why you wanted it. So, as a child, I never got baptized and I never partook.

When my grandfather passed away, I came for the funeral, and there was communion. I partook--my first and only time. Afterwards, my mother was giving me grief about it, because she knew I wasn't a believer and not baptized. I told her "Look, I don't want to get into a big discussion with my grandmother, especially at this time, why I'm not baptized at 40-something years old. She's got enough on her plate to deal with, and if it makes her happy thinking I'm Right with Jesus, let her enjoy the little time she has left. To me, it's just grape juice and crackers anyway, and if nobody knows, no harm, no foul."

Jul 6, 2022#67

Ravenpoe

figmentPez said:
"Wah! The marching band wouldn't me join them on the field, that's exclusionary! They didn't explain to me that they were performing a choreographed routine, they just expected me to know. I think anyone who wants should be able to march onto the field at half-time and take part if they want to. They must be part of some cult that thinks they're better than everyone else. It's not very conductive to getting people to come back if they don't let everyone on the field."

Jul 6, 2022#68

PatrThom

figmentPez said:
In at least some cases this is exclusionary in the same way that keeping someone who has a peanut allergy from eating peanut butter cookies is exclusionary. Granted the "cookies" in question may or may not have completely imaginary "peanuts" in them, depending on whose beliefs are correct, but the motivation can be protection, not elitism.

The main reason I found it exclusionary was because I was a follower pretty much right up until (but not including) my confirmation. I found it odd because I figured this was going to be the ideal time to be all, "Welcome back! We've missed you. Come share in our celebration of your grandfather's life," and not, "Sorry, True Catholics only."
If anything, it felt more like the Church had developed an allergy to me.

--Patrick

Jul 13, 2022#69

Chad Sexington

figmentPez said:
1 Corinthians 11:29 "For the one who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not properly recognize the body."

This verse is taken by many Christians to mean that taking communion is harmful to anyone who does it when not in a proper state to do so. (I'm sure there are a wide range of beliefs as to what the exact requirements are.) Some denominations/congregations guard communion more closely than others, but there are a lot who think there is good reason that communion should only be taken by believers.

In at least some cases this is exclusionary in the same way that keeping someone who has a peanut allergy from eating peanut butter cookies is exclusionary. Granted the "cookies" in question may or may not have completely imaginary "peanuts" in them, depending on whose beliefs are correct, but the motivation can be protection, not elitism.

Yeah, this is basically correct for Catholics, and that's the verse most cited for it.

To be clear, it's not like "true Catholics" are in a state of grace all the time - a Catholic can be in a state of sin and not grace. If I commit a mortal sin and haven't gone to confession, then I shouldn't receive communion. It is supposed to be a self-governing thing: you know whether or not you are in a state of grace at the time, and approach for only a blessing if not, or to receive if you are. So possibly the message was to Catholics generally as a reminder. And the priest doesn't know - unless you've been publicly caught doing it, and even then he wouldn't know if you'd gone to confession to another priest, so he isn't supposed to deny you the Eucharist if you present yourself.

Aug 8, 2022#70

figmentPez

Texas church illegally performs 'Hamilton' with anti-LGBTQ message

"The Door Christian Fellowship Ministries of McAllen changed Lin-Manuel Miranda's rendition of the musical to incorporate a sermon that compared being gay with having an addiction."

"In a statement to the Dallas Morning News, Pastor Roman Gutierrez said he acquired legal permission from the team behind Hamilton to produce the church's show."

"Miranda's Hamilton team denied giving the pastor permission to perform the show,"

Aug 8, 2022#71

MindDetective

It probably doesn't quite enter parody or other fair-use territory, so the Hamilton folks might have a case, at least enough for a cease and desist.

Aug 16, 2022#72

figmentPez

Aug 16, 2022#73

Frank

Boss, I haven't seen them here but I swear if I start seeing those benches with anti-houseless shit, I'm gonna spend a night crowbaring them off.

Aug 20, 2022#74

Frank

Fuck the Catholic church and the government of Canada.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-deal-catholic-church-fundraising-1.6557533

Fuck the Pope. Fuck Justin Trudeau. Fuck white people in general.

Dec 8, 2022#75

figmentPez

Restaurant denies Christian group service over its anti-abortion and LGBTQ stances

"A restaurant in Richmond, Virginia, refused to host a private event for a conservative Christian organization over the group's position on same-sex marriage and abortion rights. The restaurant, Metzger Bar and Butchery, called itself an 'inclusive' establishment that has rarely refused service to willing patrons, but said it denied service to the group in an effort to protect its staff, many of whom are women or members of the LGBTQ+ community."

"We have always refused service to anyone for making our staff uncomfortable or unsafe and this was the driving force behind our decision," an Instagram post by the restaurant said. "All of our staff are people with rights who deserve dignity and a safe work environment."

Dec 8, 2022#76

Dave

And the right are losing their fucking minds over it. Persecution fetish ho!

Dec 8, 2022#77

Tinwhistler

"Have you ever been denied a meal because of your beliefs? Last night, our team and supporters got that firsthand experience when Metzger's Bar and Butchery in Richmond, VA refused to service our pre-reserved event, leaving us scrambling just moments before," Victoria Cobb wrote.

Of course, she lacks the self-awareness to realize that this is exactly how LGBTQ+ folks feel when their pre-reserved events are canceled.

Dec 8, 2022#78

Tress

Isn't the Supreme Court about to affirm that a web designer can refuse to make wedding web pages for LGBTQ+ couples because they find it offensive? Wouldn't this be the exact same thing, just reversed?

Oh, right, the court has been ruling that the rights of Christian faith are more important than anything else in the Constitution. Nevermind.

Dec 8, 2022#79

PatrThom

Tress said:
Isn't the Supreme Court about to affirm that a web designer can refuse to make wedding web pages for LGBTQ+ couples because they find it offensive?

They’re also supposed to rule today (or was that yesterday?) whether or not states are allowed to overrule federal election laws.

—Patrick

Feb 1, 2023#80

figmentPez

Guys, is it gay to respect your wife's bodily autonomy?

Feb 2, 2023#81

PatrThom

figmentPez said:
Guys, is it gay to respect your wife's bodily autonomy?

So...pretty much this.

--Patrick

Feb 2, 2023#82

bhamv3

I'm fine with being effeminate based on this dude's definition.

Though I also think a man who's secure in his masculinity would have no problem treating his wife as an equal partner, especially when it comes to making key decisions like having children.

Feb 2, 2023#83

Bubble181

figmentPez said:
Guys, is it gay to respect your wife's bodily autonomy?

It is if you're a woman yourself, yes.

Feb 5, 2023#84

GasBandit

Feb 13, 2023#85

figmentPez

If you were wondering who was behind the ads for Jesus during the Super Bowl:

The short answer is a shadowy group of Christian billionaires, including David Green founder of Hobby Lobby.

Feb 13, 2023#86

drawn_inward

Would Jesus want you to spend millions on an ad or feed millions instead? Though he did say the poor will always be with us. So maybe he wouldn't mind that much.

Feb 16, 2023#87

Dave

SUPERSTITION IN ALL AGES

By Jean Meslier 1732

A ROMAN CATHOLIC PRIEST, WHO, AFTER A PASTORAL SERVICE OF THIRTY YEARS AT ETREPIGNY IN CHAMPAGNE, FRANCE, WHOLLY ABJURED RELIGIOUS DOGMAS, AND LEFT AS HIS LAST WILL AND TESTAMENT TO HIS PARISHIONERS, AND TO THE WORLD, TO BE PUBLISHED AFTER HIS DEATH, THE FOLLOWING PAGES, ENTITLED: COMMON SENSE.

Translated from the French original by Miss Anna Knoop 1878

Superstition in All Ages, by Jean Meslier

Feb 16, 2023#88

PatrThom

Dave said:
SUPERSTITION IN ALL AGES

By Jean Meslier 1732

A ROMAN CATHOLIC PRIEST, WHO, AFTER A PASTORAL SERVICE OF THIRTY YEARS AT ETREPIGNY IN CHAMPAGNE, FRANCE, WHOLLY ABJURED RELIGIOUS DOGMAS, AND LEFT AS HIS LAST WILL AND TESTAMENT TO HIS PARISHIONERS, AND TO THE WORLD, TO BE PUBLISHED AFTER HIS DEATH, THE FOLLOWING PAGES, ENTITLED: COMMON SENSE.

Translated from the French original by Miss Anna Knoop 1878

Superstition in All Ages, by Jean Meslier

--Patrick

Feb 17, 2023#89

mikerc

PatrThom said:
View attachment 43943

--Patrick

Also because everyone is assumed to be religious until proven otherwise all the atheists that haven't told you - and they're there, be assured - you consider them religious.

Feb 17, 2023#90

Bubble181

Yeah...There definitely are militant atheists and anti-theists, but in general religious people tend to be far more vocal about it, at least around here. I can imagine this may be different in areas where Christianity is still (considered) a majority.

Feb 17, 2023#91

Dirona

Speaking solely from personal experience, the only folks who seem determined to tell me their faith story and alignment are militant/angry-atheists, and the really conservative breed of christian. Both groups are equally convinced that I am a spawn of some sort of evil by virtue of my clerical status (assuming that I'm even wearing a collar at the time, which is pretty damn rare).

Feb 17, 2023#92

figmentPez

It's really sad that shit like this is as common as it is. Just owning "I

hot youth pastors" stickers should be enough to warrant some sort of review/oversight, but actually handing them out to children should mean no leadership position for that person, for the foreseeable future. That's not some sort of mild misunderstanding, that's a symptom of a severe problem of some sort. At the very least it shows severely poor judgement, to the point that this person should not be trusted with any significant responsibility, but it's likely a sign that something worse is going on.

Also, I wish that it was certain the two pastors that left were doing so because they couldn't stand to work with a predator, but it's just as likely one of them was an even worse offender, and they're quietly being shoved out the door in hopes that everything can be covered up before the young dumbass brings even more scrutiny.

Feb 17, 2023#93

Dirona

That sticker is fucked up.

Feb 17, 2023#94

bhamv3

On the one hand, Hanlon's Razor suggests he was just being a moron when he handed out those stickers. Like he was trying to draw the attention of young people through a funny, edgy slogan, and didn't realize how it came across.

On the other hand, what a fucking moron.

Feb 17, 2023#95

Krisken

I'm confused. Who are the groomers?

Feb 17, 2023#96

Bubble181

Krisken said:
I'm confused. Who are the groomers?

The people who are telling kids homosexuality exists and isn't a reason to kill yourself.
The good guys are the ones telling them it's a good idea to bring daddy's gun to school and that a football player walking into your baby sister's shower is just something you should accept if it's for the good of the school and the team.

Mar 2, 2023#97

figmentPez

Evangelicals are so fucking weird about sex:

What's the weirder thing that tweet is referencing...

Mar 2, 2023#98

bhamv3

So... am I supposed to knock first?

Mar 2, 2023#99

PatrThom

--Patrick

Mar 27, 2023#100

figmentPez

A Utah parent says the Bible contains porn and should be removed from school libraries.

"Frustrated by the books being removed from school libraries, a Utah parent says there’s one that hasn’t been challenged yet, but that they believe should be, for being 'one of the most sex-ridden books around.'

"So they’ve submitted a request for their school district in Davis County to now review the Bible for any inappropriate content.

“ 'Incest, onanism, bestiality, prostitution, genital mutilation, fellatio, dildos, rape, and even infanticide,' the parent wrote in their request, listing topics they found concerning in the religious text. 'You’ll no doubt find that the Bible, under Utah Code Ann. § 76-10-1227, has "no serious values for minors" because it’s pornographic by our new definition.' "

Mar 27, 2023#101

HCGLNS

I am not sure what upsets me more, the rape of Tamar or that the rape only occurs to further a mans story.

Mar 27, 2023#102

Bubble181

HCGLNS said:
I am not sure what upsets me more, the rape of Tamar or that the rape only occurs to further a mans story.

How many rapes are committed to further the woman's story?

Mar 27, 2023#103

PatrThom

Bubble181 said:
How many rapes are committed to further the woman's story?

Depends on the author.

—Patrick

Mar 27, 2023#104

HCGLNS

I would go with written instead of committed. In the bible, maybe Dinahs story is furthered by her rape? There must be some other works of fiction where it is written as such.

Apr 3, 2023#105

figmentPez

Member of pro-Nazi group used Molotov cocktails in attempt to burn down Ohio church planning to host a drag event, FBI says.

Basically what the headline says. Asshole tried to burn down a church because he's a Nazi.

"The Community Church of Chesterland, located in Geauga County, went ahead with hosting the drag queen story hour and brunch event Saturday, the church’s minister told CNN.

"Rev. Jess Peacock said it’s not the first time the church has been targeted. They said representatives of the church have in recent weeks received hate mail and messages containing threats of protests and violence over planned drag events."

“There hasn’t been a day or two where I have not received hate messages from my personal phone,” Peacock said.

Apr 11, 2023#106

figmentPez

Apr 11, 2023#107

Dave

Religion being used for good? In this economy?

Apr 12, 2023#108

Bubble181

Dave said:
Religion being used for good? In this economy?

They've only bought up WASP debt, enabling them to buy up properties owned by black people who can't afford their mortgages anymore, thus making their suburb white again?
In lieu of debt payments these people are now obligated to pay the same sum to the church in perpetuity?
To be eligible for the debt relief they needed to provide nude pictures of any living in members of their family between the ages of six and twelve?
To receive debt relief they had to sign over power of attorney for their voting rights for the next twenty years to the minister?
I dunno, just trying to think of ways to make it make sense in our modern society :troll:

(sorry to all ministers etc on our board, I'm joking)

Apr 12, 2023#109

PatrThom

Dave said:
Religion being used for good? In this economy?

I would argue that this (social safety net) is one of the original purposes of Religion, finally being rediscovered after all this time.

--Patrick

Apr 13, 2023#110

figmentPez

The whole thread is worth a read, if you don't know much about how debt collection works.

Apr 13, 2023#111

MindDetective

figmentPez said:
The whole thread is worth a read, if you don't know much about how debt collection works.

What an unlikely source for that information, too.

Apr 13, 2023#112

figmentPez

MindDetective said:
What an unlikely source for that information, too.

ROFL, I didn't even notice.

May 17, 2023#113

GasBandit

May 17, 2023#114

drawn_inward

figmentPez said:
ROFL, I didn't even notice.

Can someone clarify? I don't understand the tweets or the people. I feel quite lost here.

May 17, 2023#115

figmentPez

drawn_inward said:
Can someone clarify? I don't understand the tweets or the people. I feel quite lost here.

The tweets are from a sex worker, something I didn't realize until it MindDetective said something.

As to the content of the tweets, the TL;DR is that debt collection agencies do not like to sell debt to anyone who plans on just forgiving the debt, and will refuse to sell if they know the debt is going to be forgiven. They do not want people to realize that debt has an expiration date, one based on when the most recent payment date was.

May 17, 2023#116

@Li3n

GasBandit said:

We're talking about the religion that started with the chosen people here... kind of matches God original MO...

May 25, 2023#117

Frank

There are 2000 evacuees in this town of 2500. Every public building is being used to house evacuees, the town hall, the arena, the pool, every hotel and motel in town. High Level has a half dozen massive churches, more than is needed for this town. Not a single one has opened it's doors to evacuees. Not one. I live right next a massive church whose parking lot is empty 6 days a week.

Fuck religion.

May 25, 2023#118

PatrThom

I’m sure they’re sending all the thoughts and prayers they can muster.

—Patrick

May 25, 2023#119

Frank

Look at this bullshit. This isn't even the biggest church in town.

I took the picture in the parking lot just to show how vast and empty it is most of the week.

Jun 4, 2023#120

GasBandit

Jun 8, 2023#121

BErt

Jun 8, 2023#122

GasBandit

BErt said:

Jun 8, 2023#123

Ravenpoe

Jun 10, 2023#124

GasBandit

Jun 12, 2023#125

blotsfan

I know I'm preaching to the choir but it's so infuriating that the religious right constantly talks about protecting children.

Apparently this is from a few months ago but I hadn't heard about it. Link here.

Jun 24, 2023#126

GasBandit

Back in the mid 80s...

How dare you be unclothed in front of the opposite sex! If God wanted us to be naked, we would have been born that way!

Aug 1, 2023#127

Tinwhistler

AI understands the word of Jesus better than many Christians I know....

Aug 1, 2023#128

Dave

Slap a fake verse number on it and put it out into the wild. You think these people would know better?

Aug 1, 2023#129

HCGLNS

Or put an actual verse number on it that people enjoy thumping and ramp up an SEO.

Aug 8, 2023#130

PatrThom

Probably belongs here more than it would the "funny" thread:

Jennifer Meeks is the wife of Arkansas GOP State Senator Stephen Meeks. As a result, some people have raised the concern that this could technically be considered an instance of government censorship.

--Patrick

Aug 8, 2023#131

Bones

PatrThom said:
Probably belongs here more than it would the "funny" thread:

View attachment 45766

Jennifer Meeks is the wife of Arkansas GOP State Senator Stephen Meeks. As a result, some people have raised the concern that this could technically be considered an instance of government censorship.

--Patrick

IANAL but as she is acting on her own and not in the stead of an agent of the Federal or State government, I don't think it would be considered a 1st amendment issue. still a dick move to remove existing material, I would leave a Bible in our local box if someone placed it there, I might remove extraneous bibles if they stuffed it full of them, but would generally leave it be.

Aug 8, 2023#132

HCGLNS

Just slap an 873 on the spine and it's all good.

Aug 8, 2023#133

PatrThom

Bones said:
IANAL but as she is acting on her own and not in the stead of an agent of the Federal or State government, I don't think it would be considered a 1st amendment issue.

IANALE, but there are things The Law says that You Can't Do Because Of Who You Are Or Are Related To, and unless/until they get tested in court, it's probably better to err on the side of caution and avoid any kind of perceived impropriety.

--Patrick

Aug 8, 2023#134

Ravenpoe

PatrThom said:
IANALE, but there are things The Law says that You Can't Do Because Of Who You Are Or Are Related To, and unless/until they get tested in court, it's probably better to err on the side of caution and avoid any kind of perceived impropriety.

--Patrick

I think testing in the courts have shown that as long as they're rich enough it doesn't matter.

Aug 8, 2023#135

PatrThom

Stephen has LEAPT to his wife's defense, according to Newsweek magazine.

Meeks' husband said that her words were being taken out of context and clarified that she did not take out any LGBTQ-related materials in exchange for the bibles she has added to the libraries, nor would she advocate for others to do something similar. "Somebody on the left took that and interpreted it as my wife going all over central Arkansas, pulling Pride books out of these little libraries and replacing them with bibles and nothing is further from the truth," Stephen Meeks told Newsweek. "My wife would not do that. She would not advocate for that. She would be opposed to that."

In response, the Meeks' critics released...

...a list of bills that Stephen voted in favor of during the last legislative session, including one that criminalizes librarians for "knowingly" distributing material found to be obscene and a controversial "bathroom bill" that prohibits adults to knowingly stay in a bathroom with minors of the opposite biological sex.

--Patrick

Aug 8, 2023#136

Celt Z

PatrThom said:
Stephen has LEAPT to his wife's defense, according to Newsweek magazine.

In response, the Meeks' critics released...

So your wife posts verbatim that's what she does, but it's "someone on the Left" misinterpreted that.

Aug 9, 2023#137

PatrThom

...right?

--Patrick

Jan 16, 2024#138

figmentPez

Ohio pastor arraigned after being charged for housing homeless at church

The city is charging them with zoning and fire code violations.

"According to First Liberty Institute, Avell decided last March to keep his church open all the time because the neighboring local homeless shelter was often full, forcing some of the town's homeless to stay outside. He claimed his church has since been able to help at least 100 people who are struggling with homelessness."

Jan 16, 2024#139

Frank

Jan 17, 2024#140

mikerc

Prince William might be first British monarch in over 500 years to not be head of the Church of England.

Admittedly this is pure speculation - and by someone who has a book on the Royal Family to sell - but I would definitely support a break between the nominal head of the country & that position being explicitly tied to organised religion.

Jan 17, 2024#141

Ravenpoe

mikerc said:
Prince William might be first British monarch in over 500 years to not be head of the Church of England.

Admittedly this is pure speculation - and by someone who has a book on the Royal Family to sell - but I would definitely support a break between the nominal head of the country & that position being explicitly tied to organised religion.

If I were British I think I'd support not having a monarchy at all

Jan 17, 2024#142

mikerc

Ravenpoe said:
If I were British I think I'd support not having a monarchy at all

There's occasionally some debate in the UK over how much the Royal Family bring in through tourism vs what is spent on them via public purse.

Jan 17, 2024#143

Frank

Just because you get rid of a monarchy doesn't make all 30 of their palaces and mansions disappear.

Tourism the shit out of those places to get some real return.

Apr 13, 2024#144

figmentPez

Texas megachurch pastor Josh Howerton recently upset a lot of people by making a really horrible "joke" during a sermon, telling women "when it comes to his wedding night, he has been planning this day his whole life, so just stand where he tells you to stand, wear what he tells you to wear and do what he tells you to do and you're going to make him the happiest man in the world." (Story @ the Houston Chronicle)

He gave an apology that seems to have been plagiarized.

Full article: Did Josh Howerton Plagiarize His Apology?

When previously accused of plagiarism, Howerton claimed that it's not lying to pass off other pastor's words as his own, and that it was okay because “almost every pastor tells other pastors to use anything from his sermons that’ll help them.”

“It’s only a lie if a preacher *actually lies* and specifically takes credit for something he knows he didn’t create,” Howerton said.

I bet he stole that misogynistic bit about the wedding night, too.

Apr 13, 2024#145

PatrThom

I feel like a pastor who insists on being referred to as "Josh" rather than "Joshua" has already lost a noticeable amount of credibility.

--Patrick

Apr 14, 2024#146

@Li3n

mikerc said:
but I would definitely support a break between the nominal head of the country & that position being explicitly tied to organised religion.

But then what would make Anglicans different from other protestants ?

It's like the Catholics deciding the Pope isn't Supreme Pontiff any more.

Apr 14, 2024#147

mikerc

@Li3n said:
But then what would make Anglicans different from other protestants ?

The same thing any Church should use to differentiate itself from any other Church. Their own unique Silly Hats

Apr 14, 2024#148

Dirona

mikerc said:
The same thing any Church should use to differentiate itself from any other Church. Their own unique Silly Hats .

And capes!
(Because I want a cape.)

Apr 14, 2024#149

Bubble181

@Li3n said:
But then what would make Anglicans different from other protestants ?

Their position on:
The Virgin Mary
Saints
Lent
Forgiveness of sin
Communion with God
Language of God
Free will
Homosexuality
Age of understanding
The role of priests/pastors
The color red
The hierarchy of angels
The order of the Rapture, Apocalypse, Kingdom Come, and Heaven Eternal
The location of baby souls in the rings of Hell
The location of unborn souls in the rings of Hell
Poverty and the Will of God
Immaculate birth
The possibility of redemption of non-Jews
The possibility of redemption for those who died not knowing of Christ
The possibility of redemption for those dead before the birth of Christ
The amount of angels that can dance on the tip of a pin
And about a thousand other topics that have caused schisms in the church.
Really, most protestant and reformed churches have split from wherever they split off from over the silliest of things.

Apr 14, 2024#150

Bones

Apr 14, 2024#151

evilmike

@Li3n said:
But then what would make Anglicans different from other protestants ?

It's like the Catholics deciding the Pope isn't Supreme Pontiff any more.

Funny you should ask: Episcopal Church Fast Facts

Apr 15, 2024#152

@Li3n

Bubble181 said:
Their position on:
The Virgin Mary
Saints
Lent
Forgiveness of sin
Communion with God
Language of God
Free will
Homosexuality
Age of understanding
The role of priests/pastors
The color red
The hierarchy of angels
The order of the Rapture, Apocalypse, Kingdom Come, and Heaven Eternal
The location of baby souls in the rings of Hell
The location of unborn souls in the rings of Hell
Poverty and the Will of God
Immaculate birth
The possibility of redemption of non-Jews
The possibility of redemption for those who died not knowing of Christ
The possibility of redemption for those dead before the birth of Christ
The amount of angels that can dance on the tip of a pin
And about a thousand other topics that have caused schisms in the church.
Really, most protestant and reformed churches have split from wherever they split off from over the silliest of things.

Exactly, they'd just be another generic protestant religion, instead of the one made specifically for a guy's ultimately pointless divorce (unless you're a fan of female heir at home, instead of half-and-half... he certainly wasn't).

Bubble181 said:
The possibility of redemption of non-Jews

Wait, there's one of those still around ?

Bubble181 said:
Immaculate birth

It's either Immaculate Conception or Virgin Birth.

Apr 15, 2024#153

PatrThom

@Li3n said:
It's either Immaculate Conception or Virgin Birth.

It's "Parthenogenesis."

--Patrick

Apr 24, 2024#154

@Li3n

PatrThom said:
It's "Parthenogenesis."

--Patrick

Apr 24, 2024#155

Celt Z

@Li3n said:

We have a reaction for that.

Apr 24, 2024#156

PatrThom

Celt Z said:
We have a reaction for that.

...no, "we" don't.

--Patrick

Apr 24, 2024#157

Celt Z

Royal "we"!

Apr 24, 2024#158

PatrThom

Save that for the royal throne.

--Patrick

May 2, 2024#159

figmentPez

Priest stole from a Chester County parish and spent $40K on Candy Crush, other mobile games, police say

51 year old priest, buying microtransactions in mobile games with the church's credit card. He initially denied using the church's card, but later admitted it was possible he did so by mistake, because he's not "a details guy".

"Detectives continued to probe those financial records, and found that an Amazon account belonging to Kozak had used the parish credit card to buy a backpack, Amazon Fire tablet, and children’s chemistry set, all of which were sent to an address in Bensalem, where Kozak’s goddaughter lives, the affidavit said. The packages included a note signed by 'Uncle Larry.' "

May 2, 2024#160

Frank

Is it shitty that I looked at the crimes he committed and was relieved?

JUST embezzlement.

May 6, 2024#161

figmentPez

Betrayal: From “He Gets Us” to “He Tricked Us”

TL;DR That "He Gets Us" campaign, infamous for being a Super Bowl commercial, K-LOVE, and other "christian" media groups are taking people's submitted info and selling it to a company called "Gloo" which then sells it to anyone for $50 a month.

One pastor used that info to text a woman in distress, offer help, and then proceeded to share the woman's personal information and private story in a sermon that was available online.

That seems like the mild version of potentially horrible outcomes. Selling abusers a list of emotionally vulnerable people is a really scummy business practice.

May 7, 2024#162

Bubble181

I'm too used to the Catholic church and the American right, I was genuinely surprised when that sentence ended with doxxing instead of sexual abuse.

figmentPez said:
Selling abusers a list of emotionally vulnerable people is a really scummy business practice.

*gestures wildly at everything and anything related to megachurches*

May 7, 2024#163

Ravenpoe

figmentPez said:
Betrayal: From “He Gets Us” to “He Tricked Us”

TL;DR That "He Gets Us" campaign, infamous for being a Super Bowl commercial, K-LOVE, and other "christian" media groups are taking people's submitted info and selling it to a company called "Gloo" which then sells it to anyone for $50 a month.

One pastor used that info to text a woman in distress, offer help, and then proceeded to share the woman's personal information and private story in a sermon that was available online.

That seems like the mild version of potentially horrible outcomes. Selling abusers a list of emotionally vulnerable people is a really scummy business practice.

"He Gets Us" was funded by the Servant Foundation, which is listed as a known hate group, and the Green family of Hobby Lobby infamy, so none of this is really surprising.

May 7, 2024#164

drifter

If a religious group has enough cash to buy a Super Bowl ad, I feel like you probably shouldn't trust them.

Jun 4, 2024#165

HCGLNS

An author quoted the bible in a technical paper I am referencing at work, but cited it incorrectly, to hillarious results.

They quoted Deuteronomy 25:15 but referred to it in references as Deuteronomy 15:15.

Kinda funny.

Jun 27, 2024#166

PatrThom

PatrThom said:
Oklahoma bill would fine teachers $10K for teaching anything that contradicts religion

Republican Senator Rob Standridge introduced a bill that would allow people to sue teachers for taking an anti-religious perspective.

www.deseret.com

I feel like this could develop into one of those "unintended consequences" kind of problems.
Does this mean teachers will not be allowed to say that it's wrong to cut out the hearts of an entire losing basketball team? They can't suggest that it's okay to eat pork or beef? Will they be able to commit to whether there is only one true God or whether God is actually an infinite collection of aspects, or all of the above simultaneously? Worse yet, how can they reconcile the Buddhist drive to seek knowledge and be held accountable for one's actions while simultaneously not being allowed to be critical of any world religion, past or present?

Oklahoma, if you could just...

What.
NO.
BAD.

--Patrick

Jun 27, 2024#167

GasBandit

Word on the street is this is the Superintendent trying REAL hard to do something to distract from the ongoing investigation of his misuse of tax funds.

Jun 27, 2024#168

PatrThom

If only there was something in the Bible about (not) doing that.

--Patrick

Jul 5, 2024#169

figmentPez

Canadian Megachurch Puts Ministry on Pause After Insurer Pulls Abuse Coverage

Two years ago a pastor from The Meeting House resigned and was arrested on sexual assault charges. Since then three more women have brought charges against him, and four more former church leaders have had allegations leveled against them.

Now there aren't any insurance companies that will cover the church for Abuse Liability and Employment Practices Liability.

If churches can't be shamed into having better practices regarding abuse, then maybe financial pressure can finally force them to make changes.

Jul 5, 2024#170

mikerc

figmentPez said:
Canadian Megachurch Puts Ministry on Pause After Insurer Pulls Abuse Coverage

Two years ago a pastor from The Meeting House resigned and was arrested on sexual assault charges. Since then three more women have brought charges against him, and four more former church leaders have had allegations leveled against them.

Now there aren't any insurance companies that will cover the church for Abuse Liability and Employment Practices Liability.

If churches can't be shamed into having better practices regarding abuse, then maybe financial pressure can finally force them to make changes.

Ugh, all the quotes in that article from current church leaders are talking about how hard it is for them to be put in this situation. “I couldn’t believe it, because we’ve gone through so much, and you think, Oh, we finally got through the valley, we’re cresting up the mountain, and then you realize that you’re still in the valley.” Motorcyclist what about the actual victims of sexual assault? Where's their sympathy?

Sep 23, 2024#171

figmentPez

Christianity Today Editor: Evangelicals Call Jesus “Liberal” and “Weak”

"Moore told NPR in an interview released Tuesday that multiple pastors had told him they would quote the Sermon on the Mount, specifically the part that says to 'turn the other cheek,' when preaching. Someone would come up after the service and ask, 'Where did you get those liberal talking points?'

“ 'What was alarming to me is that in most of these scenarios, when the pastor would say, "I’m literally quoting Jesus Christ," the response would not be, "I apologize." The response would be, "Yes, but that doesn’t work anymore. That’s weak,” ' Moore said. 'When we get to the point where the teachings of Jesus himself are seen as subversive to us, then we’re in a crisis.' ”

Sep 23, 2024#172

Bubble181

Not in the least bit surprising.

Sep 23, 2024#173

Sara_2814

figmentPez said:
Christianity Today Editor: Evangelicals Call Jesus “Liberal” and “Weak”

"Moore told NPR in an interview released Tuesday that multiple pastors had told him they would quote the Sermon on the Mount, specifically the part that says to 'turn the other cheek,' when preaching. Someone would come up after the service and ask, 'Where did you get those liberal talking points?'

“ 'What was alarming to me is that in most of these scenarios, when the pastor would say, "I’m literally quoting Jesus Christ," the response would not be, "I apologize." The response would be, "Yes, but that doesn’t work anymore. That’s weak,” ' Moore said. 'When we get to the point where the teachings of Jesus himself are seen as subversive to us, then we’re in a crisis.' ”

Russell Moore had an article in The Atlantic last week, The Moral Test of Trump's Lies About Haitian Immigrants. Of course, the people who actually need to listen to him won't, because he follows that Libtard Jesus of Nazareth instead of Republican Jesus.

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