Advice: Would you leave a professor position?

[fade]

I'm curious. If you were a professor, would you ever consider leaving? The job is hard to get into, and it's full of perks, not least of which is complete freedom.

Here's my story: My field is quite lucrative. I am well aware of this fact, and I have purposely avoided going into the applied industrial part of my science because I find the work kind of dull and repetitive. Not to mention somewhat morally repugnant. But my own students, spouting my words and presenting my work, leave out of here with no experience signing contracts making often more than double what I do. Sometimes with signing bonuses.

Well, it so happens that a company is expanding in my particular niche specialty within the broader science, and I interviewed with them. Given my experience, I was quoted a rather large number. I love academia, but the pay is low, and summers are rough (I had to ask my bank to defer a house payment last summer because I couldn't gather sufficient summer salary). I'd miss teaching and freedom, but money is more important that people want to admit. I also don't care for the city the job is located in, but that's almost unavoidable in my field.

Oh to cap it all off, when I went to interview, they introduced me to the new hires, who were all trying to catch up on their background knowledge of this niche area. They had this document pulled up on the screen of their computer. I recognized the equations, and I casually commented on it. "Oh," they say, "It's a doctoral thesis, and it's very well explained". Waitaminute, I think. "Who is the author?" "Some guy named Jack something" I was like, "Yeah...that's my dissertation." How's that for coincidence/first impression, since the hiring manager was standing right next to me?

Anyway, I'm really torn about all this. What would you do?

 

[phil]

Gotta make that money. Get your money strait and go back to teaching when you can be an old crazy professor who tells stories all semester long.

 

[evilmike]

Could you take the job in industry and work as an adjunct professor? Or does that run up against "not enough hours in the day"?

 

[CrimsonSoul]

 

[MindDetective]

Tough call. I'm not in a field that has that kind of opportunity. I think I would find joy in my work even if there was no teaching. Teaching is a love/hate kind of thing for me and I would certainly miss it. But I think I might very well take the leap. I've always had the opinion that if you worked hard enough, you could change directions again in the future. It wouldn't be exactly easy to return to academia but it would be pretty doable.

 

[strawman]

I'm curious. If you were a professor, would you ever consider leaving?

I would, but that's because I'm not interested in being a professor. I think you gotta sit down and decide what is going to make you happy, then get on that train and ride it.

Sounds like you love being a professor. Money is nice, but at the end of the day you need to be happy and stimulated by what you do. If you aren't making enough money to make ends meet, you might have to choose a position that's not as fulfilling. But if you're doing well enough, happiness can't be easily bought, so getting money at the cost of happiness isn't a wise choice.

Keep in mind that you might enjoy working in the industry, especially if the company is good. If you think you'd get along with the people you work with, you might have as much fun as you are now, though you would be restricted in what you can really do.

But there is a great feeling when something you have worked on actually goes out the door as a product.

 

[Neon Pirate]

If you are just in academia for the freedom and perks, and you're driven by challenge or money or seeing a product you worked on go to market, then leave and go find them. Or become that well paid industry figure who guest speaks, lectures and possibly works as an adjunct. If you want to keep shaping those young minds as a profession or are involved in some inspiring research or truly love what you do, stay because no amount can replace that.

 

[SpecialKO]

Are you tenured? Because if you're not, I would say take the job, make your money, and come back at some later date. Wouldn't even have to think about it.

If you are tenured, then that puts a different spin on things, such as do you lose tenure if you leave? Are there circumstances where you can keep it while working full-time? Do the benefits you get out of your tenured position outweigh the (supposedly) more secure financial future you are eligible, and apparently very well suited, for?

 

[Tress]

Is there anything that prevents you from re-entering academia a few years down the road? Would it be possible to go make some good money for a while, then come back to the university life?

If it were me it would depend entirely on how bad the money situation is. If you're in a serious bind right now and need to bump up your income, I would take the industry job. If you can get by without leaving the job you actually have a passion for, I would stay.

 

[@Li3n]

I think the real question is how easily could you go back to being a professor once the extra money are no longer important...

 

[Mathias]

I'm curious. If you were a professor, would you ever consider leaving? The job is hard to get into, and it's full of perks, not least of which is complete freedom.

Here's my story: My field is quite lucrative. I am well aware of this fact, and I have purposely avoided going into the applied industrial part of my science because I find the work kind of dull and repetitive. Not to mention somewhat morally repugnant. But my own students, spouting my words and presenting my work, leave out of here with no experience signing contracts making often more than double what I do. Sometimes with signing bonuses.

Well, it so happens that a company is expanding in my particular niche specialty within the broader science, and I interviewed with them. Given my experience, I was quoted a rather large number. I love academia, but the pay is low, and summers are rough (I had to ask my bank to defer a house payment last summer because I couldn't gather sufficient summer salary). I'd miss teaching and freedom, but money is more important that people want to admit. I also don't care for the city the job is located in, but that's almost unavoidable in my field.

Oh to cap it all off, when I went to interview, they introduced me to the new hires, who were all trying to catch up on their background knowledge of this niche area. They had this document pulled up on the screen of their computer. I recognized the equations, and I casually commented on it. "Oh," they say, "It's a doctoral thesis, and it's very well explained". Waitaminute, I think. "Who is the author?" "Some guy named Jack something" I was like, "Yeah...that's my dissertation." How's that for coincidence/first impression, since the hiring manager was standing right next to me?

Anyway, I'm really torn about all this. What would you do?

I'm doing that this summer. Going back into industry as a principle scientist at a local company. It's a 15 minute commute, and they're pretty much doubling my salary. I'm not looking back.

Academia is fun, but the pay definitely sucks. I've been kinda jumping around in the biology field. I started as a microbiologist and slowly kinda just ended up purely in biochemistry.

Just be careful about what company you go to. I first worked as a microbiologist/molecular biologist at GSK, then I got a job at U Penn which collaborated my translational research with drug studies at GSK... until the fucking department went under in 2008/9. GSK and Merck, for example, are notorious for constant business acquisitions and mergers that cause the infrastructure of their smaller satellites to shift around quite often, which equals layoffs every 4 or 5 years. I've been teaching community college for a year now, and it's ok. The pay is pretty crappy, so I consult on the side (consulting pays really well, btw, but it's not consistent). I had this fear of going back into industry due to biotech's unstable nature, but this new place has told me they never lay off. Makes sense, they're a biotech diagnostic service based company. No matter how bad the economy gets, places like Merck are always going to need to meet FDA approvals via third party testing.

Working for the man has its perks too, but you definitely will have solid deadlines that must be met, so the work can sometimes be overwhelming. Bottom line that drove me to accepting an industry position again was my family. I've got two kids and one on the way to take care of. The work make be repetitive at times, but I use that to channel my creativity in other forms (currently writing my first book). Academia would be a great place to stay if I could score a prestigious tenure position at a high end university, making like 150K+ a year. But lets be real here, I have better odds of being a rock star, or professional athlete.

I say you go for it. It can't hurt you. If you want to go back to academia when you're a bit older and sick of the rat race, I'm sure any university would be willing to take you over some wet-behind the years post-doc.
Added at: 07:39

I think the real question is how easily could you go back to being a professor once the extra money are no longer important...

Probably not too hard actually. My uncle recently retired from a chemist position at an industry job. He's got his Masters and about 30 years of NMR, IR, and UV experience under his belt; managed to score a nice, cushy retirement job at a university teaching chemistry and running their labs. He works about 30 hours a week. The money is probably just fine combined with his other retirement funds.

 

[Mathias]

Also see this thread: https://www.halforums.com/threads/im-bored-with-work-and-life-in-general.24569/

 

[Chibibar]

That is the question. Are you tenure? If you are, that is make the decision even harder. I do love my job and academia environment is easier (IT wise) than the real world. The pays is not as good, but the benefits (for now) out weights what the private sector can give. I do have a lot of freedom of what I can do and the perks ARE nice ( a lot more "free vacation" since they are school vacation like x-mas and thanksgiving that I don't have to use my accrued holiday)

Would I go? If I was a professor? I would say if you could adjunct it, I would. In this economy and rarity of your position out there, you need a safety net to fall back on. That would be MY decision if it was me.

 

[sixpackshaker]

Let me guess, the city that you don't want to go to is Houston....

 

[fade]

Let me guess, the city that you don't want to go to is Houston....

You got it. I just can't see myself in that ugly urban sprawl. I went there on Tuesday, and it was like bad memories rushing back (lived nearby for 6 years). One of the major impetuses for looking outside my current position was location. I haven't decided if I would find Houston a better place than this one or not.

As far as the tenure questions go, I'm not, but I only have 2 years left on the tenure track, and I don't anticipate any difficulty making tenure. At that point, my salary will go up significantly, but still well below the numbers that were thrown at me the other day. If I made full professor, the numbers would be equivalent, but a) not everyone makes full prof, and there's no set formula for doing so, and b) by the time that happens, who knows what my salary could be up to in industry. But like I said, money's not everything. (Tenure's not either. As of recent Louisiana legislation, tenure now buys you 3 months. The magical bulletproof shell of the 1950s is long gone. 3 months is more than many jobs, but considering the application process for a new academic position can take half a year, and the jobs only post in the fall, that's bad.)

I do have some industry experience--I'm not totally naive of the workaday world. I wasn't a fan. It wasn't the deadlines or the drive to make money, because believe me, those things are there in academia, too. Esp. this day and age. In fact, since I have no boss per se, I have to handle even more of that stuff as a professor than I did in industry. It was more the corporate attitude. It felt restricting, and my co-workers all seemed to be company men (or women).

I'm asking for advice because one of my biggest character flaws is the tendency to view the grass as spectacularly greener on the other side.

 

[sixpackshaker]

Just strike urban sprawl off your list, you will find that in any town that you are likely to find a corporate job.

Houston does have a lot to offer. Yes there are some really ugly areas, but then there is a lot of trees and wildlife around and other interesting areas about town.

The biggest choice for you to face is the balance of corporate vs. academic culture and pay. How much freedom are you willing to give up to make more money?

 

[Mathias]

You got it. I just can't see myself in that ugly urban sprawl. I went there on Tuesday, and it was like bad memories rushing back (lived nearby for 6 years). One of the major impetuses for looking outside my current position was location. I haven't decided if I would find Houston a better place than this one or not.

As far as the tenure questions go, I'm not, but I only have 2 years left on the tenure track, and I don't anticipate any difficulty making tenure. At that point, my salary will go up significantly, but still well below the numbers that were thrown at me the other day. If I made full professor, the numbers would be equivalent, but a) not everyone makes full prof, and there's no set formula for doing so, and b) by the time that happens, who knows what my salary could be up to in industry. But like I said, money's not everything. (Tenure's not either. As of recent Louisiana legislation, tenure now buys you 3 months. The magical bulletproof shell of the 1950s is long gone. 3 months is more than many jobs, but considering the application process for a new academic position can take half a year, and the jobs only post in the fall, that's bad.)

I do have some industry experience--I'm not totally naive of the workaday world. I wasn't a fan. It wasn't the deadlines or the drive to make money, because believe me, those things are there in academia, too. Esp. this day and age. In fact, since I have no boss per se, I have to handle even more of that stuff as a professor than I did in industry. It was more the corporate attitude. It felt restricting, and my co-workers all seemed to be company men (or women).

I'm asking for advice because one of my biggest character flaws is the tendency to view the grass as spectacularly greener on the other side.

Heh. Same here.

 

[Chibibar]

Do you have TRS or something similar? (not sure where you are Fade) one of the main reason I am still where I am cause I have about 10 years invested in TRS and none in Social Security. If I leave now, I lose my benefits.

 

[fade]

Yes, I do. And it's one of the big arguments for staying in Louisiana. The retirement package is awesome. It's guaranteed to the day I die, and it's fairly significant.

 

[Chibibar]

Yes, I do. And it's one of the big arguments for staying in Louisiana. The retirement package is awesome. It's guaranteed to the day I die, and it's fairly significant.

Same with TRS. It is awesome once I hit the magical age + years of service.

 

[Adam]

I'm asking for advice because one of my biggest character flaws is the tendency to view the grass as spectacularly greener on the other side.

Heh. Same here.

I think that's a pretty common trait. I suffer from the exact opposite. A feeling that things aren't better anywhere else so there's no reason to move.

 

[MindDetective]

I think that's a pretty common trait. I suffer from the exact opposite. A feeling that things aren't better anywhere else so there's no reason to move.

I feel like I'm in a decent position but that it could be made better. I guess I'm a "water my own lawn to make it greener" kind of guy.

 

[Adam]

I feel like I'm in a decent position but that it could be made better. I guess I'm a "water my own lawn to make it greener" kind of guy.

Hmm, maybe that's more appropriate to my frame of mind. My sphere of influence is pretty limited so why not use it to do what I can instead of worrying about everyone and everything else.

 

[fade]

Chibi, TRS is a very, very good point. Short of high-risk investment, there aren't many better retirement systems.

One of the things I keep coming back to is that this move doesn't settle Reason to Move #1: Location.

 

[sixpackshaker]

Go one weekend and drag your kids through the zoo, children's museum, art galleries, Bayou Bend, then hit a Broadway Roadshow with the wife... Houston is a hell of a town. You just have to get off the interstates to see it.

 

[Chibibar]

Chibi, TRS is a very, very good point. Short of high-risk investment, there aren't many better retirement systems.

One of the things I keep coming back to is that this move doesn't settle Reason to Move #1: Location.

I know. I mean once I hit my rule of 80 (age + years of service) I can retire and have the avg of my top 5 pay at 70% (I will have at least 25 years in so it is around that) for the rest of my life. Granted I don't get the cost of living adjustment, but that is what my 403B suppose supplement

 

[CrimsonSoul]

Fade, move to Houston, I'm an hour away from there, we can hang out and shoot guns. My dad has 40 acres if you like to hunt, and the beach is nearby!
Added at: 19:27
If you want a "small town" there are plenty close to houston, heck the town I grew up in is about 45 minutes away with a population of less than 5,000 the city I live in now is close to the same distance and it has about 30,000 residents and one of the most parks per resident in the city than in most any other Texas city.

 

[fade]

I lived near Houston for 6 years. That's where the deep since of foreboding comes from

 

[CrimsonSoul]

We should get together n do some shootin' one day!

 

[fade]

Okay, so I went back for another interview today. I met the CEO and the CTO. The CTO was actually a classmate of my PhD advisor, so we shared a pedigree in a way. Anyway, this is a small company, so the CEO is actually a scientist with expertise in my research specialty (as is the CTO obviously). It went down way differently than I expected. I presented some of my research on the 2010 oil spill, and they were highly impressed. Wait, let me back up. I was interviewing for what in the oil biz is called a "service position", which is code for a "highly trained monkey". I kid, but it means someone who basically does repetitive work that requires a lot of expertise. In this case, it was interpreting a specific type of data for oil. This is a relatively new approach that I (not bragging here, just the facts) am one of the few experts in the world on. Anyway. It's a bit beneath my training level, and I've been questioned repeatedly on whether I would be happy just doing services.

Whoo. Anyway, this company has an R&D side, too, but I was told they had no openings. So I presented my stuff, and they told me that they just bought some software written by an old internship mentor of mine. It turns out some of my code is in this software, so I know it well. When they heard my talk, and that I had actually worked on the software they were purchasing, the CEO basically said, "No, you shouldn't be in services. I think we could find you and R&D position, and even get 3 or so scientists working for you as your team." I was totally surprised.

TL;DR: I went in for the interview, presented my research, and impressed them enough that they offered me a higher position with a team of my own.

 

[Mathias]

 

[Wasabi Poptart]

Wow!

 

[fade]

Just strike urban sprawl off your list, you will find that in any town that you are likely to find a corporate job.

Houston does have a lot to offer. Yes there are some really ugly areas, but then there is a lot of trees and wildlife around and other interesting areas about town.

The biggest choice for you to face is the balance of corporate vs. academic culture and pay. How much freedom are you willing to give up to make more money?

Hmm, I don't think I agree. I didn't find the strip mall pervasion that exists in Houston in Boston when I lived there. I don't see it in SF or NYC, either. I think it's a feature of Houston and LA that has been noted by more than just me. The other cities are big, and wide spread, but without that strip mall, big parking lot, long smoggy road look that I don't like.


...


Anyway, this is tearing me up. I want to talk to my university colleagues about it, but this whole thing was unfortunately coincident with spring break, so I can't. That gives me a lovely week of stress to look forward to.

 

[Null]

So, are you looking for advice, or just bragging?

 

[fade]

You're right. Next time, I'll just leave out the details and ask for advice with no supporting information. This question was about which job is better for me, so talking about how each affects me in both positive and negative ways is unavoidable. I'm sorry you see that as bragging. The short and simple of it is that this job that offered me a lot offered me even more on the second visit, which makes an already difficult decision (the one I was asking for advice about) even more difficult.