Advice: Would you leave a professor position?

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C

Chibibar

Wow. that is a tough position to be in. They offer you a team in the R&D department? awesome. What is the shelf life of that in private sector? (i.e. are they the first to go in time of money crunch?) how stable is the company? I know it is small and new, but what do you feel about it?

What are you backup plan? what if the company folds (private company usually do) can you come back to the university? can you still teach part time online or something? (that way you still keep a safety net)

if you were to ask this question 10 years ago, I would say go for it with both feet in BUT with the current state of the U.S. economy, you gotta have a backup plan in case this "really awesome position" decides to fall apart on you say 6 months from now.

Also the reason I ask cause like you said, it is a very specialize field so it is a pretty much a nitch market right? that makes it harder to find a new job later right? (that is a question since I know nothing about your job/position market feasibility)
 
Null

Null

fade said:
my own students, spouting my words and presenting my work, leave out of here with no experience signing contracts making often more than double what I do. Sometimes with signing bonuses.

Well, it so happens that a company is expanding in my particular niche specialty within the broader science, and I interviewed with them. Given my experience, I was quoted a rather large number.
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They had this document pulled up on the screen of their computer. I recognized the equations, and I casually commented on it. "Oh," they say, "It's a doctoral thesis, and it's very well explained". Waitaminute, I think. "Who is the author?" "Some guy named Jack something" I was like, "Yeah...that's my dissertation." How's that for coincidence/first impression, since the hiring manager was standing right next to me?
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The CTO was actually a classmate of my PhD advisor, so we shared a pedigree in a way. Anyway, this is a small company, so the CEO is actually a scientist with expertise in my research specialty (as is the CTO obviously). It went down way differently than I expected. I presented some of my research on the 2010 oil spill, and they were highly impressed.
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This is a relatively new approach that I (not bragging here, just the facts) am one of the few experts in the world on.... it's a bit beneath my training level.
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So I presented my stuff, and they told me that they just bought some software written by an old internship mentor of mine. It turns out some of my code is in this software, so I know it well. When they heard my talk, and that I had actually worked on the software they were purchasing, the CEO basically said, "No, you shouldn't be in services. I think we could find you and R&D position, and even get 3 or so scientists working for you as your team."
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Gee, how could I have mistaken any of that for bragging?

It seems like your biggest problem is that you don't want to relocate to Houston. Re-entering academia shouldn't be a huge issue, and double the salary is going to really make a difference when it comes to making those house payments. And since you'll be doing R&D, I guess the "boredom" issue with your job won't be as bad, either.

But the fact is, I'm not you, so while I can see a large amount of practical benefits towards taking the job, I can't say what would be "best for you".
 
fade

fade

Staff member
I wouldn't know any other way to present it. It was a laundry list of factual events, all directly affecting my opinion of the company, and theirs of me. I didn't present any of it in a boastful way. If I said they were highly impressed, that's what happened. I didn't present it to boast, I presented it because it converted directly into a higher position and money offer, nothing more.
 
strawman

strawman

Eh. Just take the job. Have fun for a few years.

If it doesn't work out, many schools would be glad to have you with your academic experience, and your corporate experience on top. You would be in a much stronger position to teach students, most of whom plan on entering the workforce.

If it works out that you enjoy it, great! Given your own team you would still be able to feed the "mentor and teach" aspects of your personality, while doing research yourself.

If they drop the department later, again, many school would be glad to have you.

Take a leap and see what happens. Whatever does happen, it'll be a new experience, and you'll grow from it in ways different than you can expect to right now.
 
fade

fade

Staff member
By complete coincidence, my wife found out today that one of her minor friends is married to someone who did exactly what I'm contemplating. He was a prof in petroleum engineering at U. of Michigan, and left the job for industry. It was interesting to hear his side. He said it took him about 6 mos. to adjust, and that he still misses teaching a lot, but the free time is nice. I think that is honestly one of the things I want the most. More than money, which is just a thing. I have taken maybe a few days of vacation in the last 10 years. I've heard a lot of academics complain about the same thing. The job never ends. You leave the office, but you're still at work. That's not always a bad thing, mind you. But it would be nice to catch a break that doesn't make me feel guilty. Tenure stress and burnout are really wearing on me.

The thing about going back...the general thinking is that when you leave the Ivory Tower, the door slams and locks behind you. I've heard tell that that's a myth, but then I don't know any profs who came from industry, either.
 
Null

Null

Re: profs who come from industry - that could be because it's usually a 50-60% drop in pay for an equal or increased workload... at least, that's the consensus among the few faculty here who were professionals in their field.
 
strawman

strawman

The problem isn't that the schools refuse to take them back, it's that the schools refuse to pay what they were making in the private sector - unless the professor is a proven grant-earner that will bring more into the university than they cost.

It's hard for the professor to make the adjustment
 
fade

fade

Staff member
Chibibar said:
Wow. that is a tough position to be in. They offer you a team in the R&D department? awesome. What is the shelf life of that in private sector? (i.e. are they the first to go in time of money crunch?) how stable is the company? I know it is small and new, but what do you feel about it?

What are you backup plan? what if the company folds (private company usually do) can you come back to the university? can you still teach part time online or something? (that way you still keep a safety net)

if you were to ask this question 10 years ago, I would say go for it with both feet in BUT with the current state of the U.S. economy, you gotta have a backup plan in case this "really awesome position" decides to fall apart on you say 6 months from now.

Also the reason I ask cause like you said, it is a very specialize field so it is a pretty much a nitch market right? that makes it harder to find a new job later right? (that is a question since I know nothing about your job/position market feasibility)
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This is an established, well-known company that has been around since about 1980. The bulk of their business is actually in standard imaging services, so it's unlikely to fold. The niche part...that's funny because the niche company actually bought the established one. The future is hard to tell. The niche field went through a bubble a few years ago, because it was oversold. Exxon even had a commercial about it on tv, which shocked me, because so few people do it. But the bubble burst, and some of the startups went under. This one sold off its data acquisition side (several ships and equipment), and just decided to focus on the processing side. But now that the snake-oil oversell is done, the business is starting to pick back up in a more sensible way. Could be the perfect time to get in on it.
 
fade

fade

Staff member
Well so, I just talked to my dept. and my dept. chair about it. I basically got a "don't let the door hit ya where the good lawd split ya". That was a bit irritating. Basically I was told don't expect a raise, even if you get tenure. I mean they were nice about it. Just rather less than concerned. I mean, humility aside, I'm the best teacher in this department. My teaching reviews are really high. I have to turn down overrides at the beginnings of semesters. I'm well-known in my field. And this is all I get? A big fat "it's been real"?
 
W

Wasabi Poptart

That's awful! Their reaction alone would push me out the door sooner rather than later regardless of them being "nice about it".
 
SpecialKO

SpecialKO

I was already on the "coporate gig" side, but if that's the attitude they give you, I'm not sure you could count on academic perks, anyways.
 
Mathias

Mathias

fade said:
Well so, I just talked to my dept. and my dept. chair about it. I basically got a "don't let the door hit ya where the good lawd split ya". That was a bit irritating. Basically I was told don't expect a raise, even if you get tenure. I mean they were nice about it. Just rather less than concerned. I mean, humility aside, I'm the best teacher in this department. My teaching reviews are really high. I have to turn down overrides at the beginnings of semesters. I'm well-known in my field. And this is all I get? A big fat "it's been real"?
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Come on man, you know that Academia is all about the arrogance. They all get pissed when you decide not to lead the same life they had. My professors in grad school expressed to me in so many words how disappointed they were when I told them I hated the idea of getting a post-doc. Fuck em. My first year out I was making more money than a tenured professor - until my department took a shit a year and a half later. The thing is, the experience I gained from that job was 100 x more valuable than 'lab research experience'.

If times are tough, and they need a good prof. any university will pick you up again.
 
fade

fade

Staff member
Well, one colleague--the one I have the best rapport with--said something interesting. He said that professors are paid in ego. That's why we get into the job in the first place. He's right, you know. The thing I'd miss the most is being the master. There are halls full of people right now who call me Dr. Jack (b/c they can't pronounce my last name) and view me as the guru. I get off on that, I'll confess.

I guess I was hoping for some kind of "oh no don't go!" reaction. My chair told me that this is a business relationship, and if I choose to leave that's just the way it is. Likewise if the University were to let me go. True again, I suppose, but so cold. I guess I viewed a university position too much like Hogwarts in my mind. I mean that's what I wanted.
 
C

Chibibar

fade said:
Well, one colleague--the one I have the best rapport with--said something interesting. He said that professors are paid in ego. That's why we get into the job in the first place. He's right, you know. The thing I'd miss the most is being the master. There are halls full of people right now who call me Dr. Jack (b/c they can't pronounce my last name) and view me as the guru. I get off on that, I'll confess.

I guess I was hoping for some kind of "oh no don't go!" reaction. My chair told me that this is a business relationship, and if I choose to leave that's just the way it is. Likewise if the University were to let me go. True again, I suppose, but so cold. I guess I viewed a university position too much like Hogwarts in my mind. I mean that's what I wanted.
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Well, you know also that some prof might get jealous that YOU got the position :) (I know that is the case with our school)
At this rate, I say go for it and enjoy the ride.
 
Null

Null

That ties into a recent pair of conversations I had with a friend of mine who teaches several lit courses I took. I mentioned the success of my recent gaming books when he asked how my writing was going. He said, "No, I mean your real writing." I said, "This is writing I'm being paid for, that gets published, and that other people buy. What's not real about that?" He says, "I mean your stuff that isn't genre." I said, "Well, I haven't really done anything on that because all my writing time is being spent on paying jobs." And he shook his head like that was a foolish mistake. He even said, "You know, you could do better working on fiction instead of whatever it is you're doing." I was let down by that. Then I realized that at this point, I've got more stuff published and in circulation than he ever has.

So this past week I see him at the college's lit magazine release, which he's one of the faculty advisers for. He asks me what I'm working on, and I tell him I've got 2500 words to do by the next day. And he looks stunned, and goes, "For what?" And I explain that I picked up a freelance job for another gaming company, 5000 words total for 5 high-level encounters, one week to do it. He says that's a lot of work with a short deadline. I agree that it is, and say, "Well, that's part of writing for money, I guess." And he laughs and says, "Yet another reason I have 'cleverly avoided' doing so all these years." I know he was kind of joking, but he also kind of wasn't.

There really is a sort of ivory tower snobbery in academia, compared to people who try and apply their skills in the private sector. It's an ugly thing once you recognize it.
 
AshburnerX

AshburnerX

It's very much an Artist Vs. Craftsmen deal. The Artists get the glory and admiration. Craftsmen get paid and maybe recognition if they are at the top of the field. So which is better really depends on whether it's your "job" or if your getting paid to do something else for a living.
 
Null

Null

In the words of BJ Ward (and he might have got them from someone else, but I heard them from him) - "Calling yourself a professional artist is like calling yourself a professional lover. Unless you're enormously talented or independently wealthy, you're still going to need a day job."

My day job isn't anything special but it pays the rent. I write because I enjoy it and I think I'm good at it, good enough to be published. The money I make off it isn't much, but it's a start. And when I have a larger work finished, I can go to the publisher with some professional credentials. I'm already meeting publishers through my gaming work.
 
fade

fade

Staff member
So, I accepted the position. If this is the "right" decision, why do I feel like crap about it.
 
Piotyr

Piotyr

Depends what you feel bad about...leaving the students, leaving the university, leaving colleagues, concern about a possible "grass is greener" effect...
 
MindDetective

MindDetective

I felt crappy resigning from my position this week too, even though moving was a clearly good career step. There's this lingering feeling of disappointing people or letting people down in the department or the students, etc. I'm glad I wasn't listening to that part of my brain when I was looking for a job!
 
C

Chibibar

fade said:
So, I accepted the position. If this is the "right" decision, why do I feel like crap about it.
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You feel like that cause it is a BIG change. Your environment that you are comfortable to an environment that is "new" (i.e. haven't been in AGES) you will be moving to a city you don't particularly like (Houston so you said) BUT the job is good and you are putting your skills into "real work" (I'm totally guessing here) since it will be applied right? no more theories or studies and stuff. Your stuff/reports/lab whatever will be put to use? (again I'm guessing here)

It is natural that we will be apprehensive when it comes to big changes in our lives. We will fear the worst and think about all the negative about it, but since you have look at this logically, and work it out within yourself, you will adapt, you will prevail, and you will be happier later :) (again I'm hoping)
 
strawman

strawman

MindDetective said:
There's this lingering feeling of disappointing people or letting people down in the department or the students, etc.
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This is a big part of every job change for me. No transition is ever clean.

But, as they pointed out to fade, this is a business relationship, and it must necessarily be mutually beneficial. You don't feel bad when you choose to get a toy from toys r us instead of walmart - your reasons for choosing one over the other are determined by you.

It's a little different choosing between two jobs, but not much when you break it down into its basic components.

Still, people is people, and you can't divorce your feelings from your position and your colleagues so easily, so no matter what you're going to have a sinking feeling during the transition.

Just think of it as moving outside your comfort zone, and work past it.
 
fade

fade

Staff member
MindDetective,

I have the same feeling. I have about 10 grad students right now, and I'll confess, I'm quite concerned for their futures. I am going to try to get 4 of them to defend before I leave. One I've promised to help from afar because she's just too invested in this project to change now. The rest go to different advisors, I guess.

I know some of my students know about this forum, so I refrained from saying it until now, but one of my biggest motivations for leaving is my insecurity about the future of this department. The department was recommended for review and possible closure recently when the state asked for 35% (you read that right) across the board budget cuts. The dean claims we're safe because we bring in a lot of intro to geology students looking for an easy science. But I don't know. Instead of closing us, they're merging us with the other earth sciences into a school of geosciences, and hiring a new administrator. Because that spends rather than makes money, I can only guess that something's going to happen.

Interesting note: someone found this post by googling for "how to leave a professor job". Guess we're not alone.
 
fade

fade

Staff member
Well. Not to necro too much, but some interesting things have happened. I went to visit the university on monday, and I was actually surprised. That emotional reaction at my leaving that I wanted? It happened when I dropped by for a visit, oddly enough. I was practically asked to re-apply for the position. Apparently, they've had 5 applicants for 3 open positions, and according to the head, they all suck. Why so few? Location? I am re-applying.

It's not without precedent. One of the old guys did EXACTLY what I may be doing. He was a stronger prof for it. The TL;DR version is that there's a lot of petro-specific lingo and research that I wasn't all that familiar with, and I am now thanks to working here. Actually scratch that. Two of them did it, but one only did it for a semester, and officially with the university's sanction.

I miss the life. I like the money, but damn if I don't miss saying "Professor" when people ask me what I do.
 
strawman

strawman

You should definitely push for at least 10% more than previously if not 20-30% more when salary is negotiated. You might not have that option depending on their salary system, but if you understand the pay scales and grades, you should be able to convince them your industry experience pushes you up in the scale if they have one.
 
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