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http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...shot-dead-loud-music-20121126,0,4320738.story

So this old white guy - a VP at a tech company, Michael David Dunn - goes to a Florida wedding. While there he stops for gas. Next to him at the gas station, there is a car with 5-6 teenage black men with loud music. He asks them to turn the music down. They exchange words and *blam* the guy opens fire and kills a kid named Jordan Russell Davis. When police questions Dunn he claims self defense and the stand your ground law that was used in the Treyvon Martin case.

Now, if you remember in the Martin case I withheld judgement as we didn't have all the information. I'm a bit more willing to proactively prosecute Dunn in this one. Why?

After the shooting, he and his girlfriend left the scene and went back to their hotel. They watched the news as the murder was reported. Next morning they went back home to Georgia. Probably the only reason anyone knows it was his was because witnesses got a description and license number. In addition, Davis was sitting in the back seat of the vehicle and reports are that the youths were unarmed. So how self defense can be justified is beyond me.

I think that law is fucking stupid. Now we have a RICH white guy as the shooter. It'll be interesting as to the outcome.

edit: Apparently I have the states wrong and can't read. Dunn - the shooter - IS from Florida. The victim - Davis - is from Georgia.

*shrug* Country With Ridiculous Gun Control Has Excitable Idiots With Guns Shooting When Not Appropriate. News at 11.

It's sad for the dead guy. It's almost even sadder that this'll be Just Another Gun Thread.

Minnesota brings the crazy too. A couple people break into this guys house unarmed and end up dead. The homeowner even left the bodies in his basement until the next day instead of calling the police.

“He heard footsteps, fired the rifle once he saw the hips,” said Sheriff Michel Wetzel, of Morrison County. “Then he fired more shots at point-blank range.”
The complaint says that Smith told officers he “fired more shots than I needed to.” He shot Brady multiple times after seeing him walking down the stairs into the basement before shooting him again in the face.
“I want(ed) him dead,” he told police.
A few minutes later, according to the complaint, Kifer came down into the basement and he shot her as well until she fell down the stairs. He said he tried to shoot her again, and when his Mini 14 rifle jammed, she laughed at him. He said this made him upset.
“If you’re trying to shoot somebody and they laugh at you, you go again,” he told police. He said he shot her multiple times in the chest with a .22-caliber revolver.
He dragged both of them on tarps into his office workshop, the charges state. Kifer was still breathing so he admitted to shooting her once again under the chin and up into her skull. He told authorities he wanted to end her suffering with “a good clean finishing shot.”

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Dave said:

Another Stand Your Ground shooting in Florida.

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Do you really think this instance fits the requirements of "stand your ground" under the law?

I don't think it does - I think it's just the best defense the lawyers have at the moment, and the only thing they can really run with.

Shakey said:

Minnesota brings the crazy too. A couple people break into this guys house unarmed and end up dead. The homeowner even left the bodies in his basement until the next day instead of calling the police.

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Well, wow, that just goes straight past any form of "defense" on into "homicidal maniac with an excuse". Shooting a trespasser on sight? I personally don't agree, but I can see the reasoning and I understand just fine - that's a cultural difference between here and there. Shooting them when they're down and out, unarmed? That's manslaughter, at least, even over in the USA, right?

Shakey said:

A couple people break into this guys house unarmed and end up dead.

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FYI: If you illegally enter another person's home you may end up dead.

Bubble181 said:

Well, wow, that just goes straight past any form of "defense" on into "homicidal maniac with an excuse". Shooting a trespasser on sight? I personally don't agree, but I can see the reasoning and I understand just fine - that's a cultural difference between here and there. Shooting them when they're down and out, unarmed? That's manslaughter, at least, even over in the USA, right?

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Yeah, he doesn't stand a chance on getting away with it. Apparently he's been broken into a lot lately and snapped.[DOUBLEPOST=1354119797][/DOUBLEPOST]

stienman said:

FYI: If you illegally enter another person's home you may end up dead.

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Right, but the homeowner shouldn't be able to kill you execution style.

Florida man is in deep doo, unless there are witnesses stating that the kid in the car threatened the killer's life.

The man in the Minnesota killing will likely face a long stretch in prison or a state hospital for the insane.

Shakey said:

Yeah, he doesn't stand a chance on getting away with it. Apparently he's been broken into a lot lately and snapped.

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If he had stopped shooting the moment they hit the ground, he wouldn't be in trouble. Your allowed to shoot on sight once they've entered your home without permission (as long as they aren't trying to leave it). This guy though? He moved their bodies and executed at least one of them. He really has no chance. He's going to jail for murder unless he gets a a jury willing to nullify it.

The guy from the first post is probably boned too. It's 4-5 witnesses from the car pointing the finger at him, plus any more that step forward. He can afford a good lawyer though so who knows?

Shakey said:

Right, but the homeowner shouldn't be able to kill you execution style.

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He clearly went too far. Once he determined that he was not in any further danger he should have called the police immediately and stopped shooting them. He's going to get in hot water not for the initial shots, but for the "mercy killing" which is not allowed under any law. She clearly did not pose any further danger to him.

AshburnerX said:

He can afford a good lawyer though so who knows?

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And I'm once again reminded why I didn't go to the States for my exchange year.

North_Ranger said:

And I'm once again reminded why I didn't go to the States for my exchange year.

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Because we're all either murdering, or getting murdered.

Honestly, this isn't a stand your ground issue (though that law does have issues). This is just a crazy guy that committed a murder. This is no more a stand your ground issue than it would be a first ammendment issue if the guy tried to claim it was his freedom of speech, it's a crazy defense and does not apply to the situation.

North_Ranger said:

And I'm once again reminded why I didn't go to the States for my exchange year.

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I'm askeered of all the gun murderers in america, mister McFeely!

Yeah, it's a good thing those peaceful scandinavian countries never experience psychopathic murder rampages... ohhhhhhhh waiiiiit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jokela_school_shooting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kauhajoki_school_shooting

Ravenpoe said:

Because we're all either murdering, or getting murdered.

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No. Just more people with guns and apparently a lower threshold to use them against other people, and hence the bigger chance of said gun being held by someone who's not playing with a full deck.

North_Ranger said:

And I'm once again reminded why I didn't go to the States for my exchange year.

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That is an odd conclusion.

North_Ranger said:

No. Just more people with guns and apparently a lower threshold to use them against other people, and hence the bigger chance of said gun being held by someone who's not playing with a full deck.

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By your logic you should be running screaming for the Norwegian border, since Finland has half the homicide rate per capita compared to the US, but Norway has a sixth compared to Finland. You are SIX TIMES AS LIKELY TO BE MURDERED! SIX! Oh noes!

And finland also has the 4th highest gun ownership per capita of any nation! When you weren't looking the guns snuck in!

Conclusion: everywhere is nuts, the law in this case is bad.

Dave said:

Conclusion: everywhere is nuts, the law in this case is bad.

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Correction: Everywhere is nuts, and criminals desperately (and incorrectly) try to claim any defense they can to get off. As others have said, "stand your ground" doesn't apply here, and thus this can't be considered illustration of why the law is allegedly "bad."

stienman said:

That is an odd conclusion.

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I knew there was a reason I stayed away from that crazy Finland.

Ravenpoe said:

I knew there was a reason I stayed away from that crazy Finland.

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So, if you go there, you'll be Finnish'ed.

Sheesh, I make one half-joking remark and everybody piles up on me. I'd make a football and/or gay sex joke, but I guess that'll blow up in my face as well.

Yes, I know what I just typed!

North_Ranger said:

Sheesh, I make one half-joking remark and everybody piles up on me. I'd make a football and/or gay sex joke, but I guess that'll blow up in my face as well.

Yes, I know what I just typed!

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*posts link showing Finland has the highest population of football-playing sodomite face-bombers*

bhamv3 said:

*posts link showing Finland has the highest population of football-playing sodomite face-bombers*

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Like Taiwan's any better. We all know why you're really wearing those goggles

North_Ranger said:

Like Taiwan's any better. We all know why you're really wearing those goggles

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Can I bring back the Frosty Susan?

North_Ranger said:

Like Taiwan's any better. We all know why you're really wearing those goggles

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No no, you've got it wrong. It's how we tell actual Taiwanese from commie spies.

No, I'm not saying real Taiwanese people wear goggles while the filthy commies don't. I'm saying some of us are issued biometric scanner goggles. All I have to do is peer at a person and I can tell their political allegiance.

Of course, the goggles aren't perfect, so sometimes I need to peer pretty hard. And I need to peer at their chest areas, because that's where the heart is, you know? And, inevitably, sometimes I need to scan women. I've had girls get upset at me for peering at their chests, but I put up with it because it's part of the job.

Back on topic, sauna pants.

North_Ranger said:

Sheesh, I make one half-joking remark and everybody piles up on me. I'd make a football and/or gay sex joke, but I guess that'll blow up in my face as well.

Yes, I know what I just typed!

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gay sex blowing up in your face...

it writes itself...

sixpackshaker said:

it writes itself...

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...or else it gets the hose again.

--Patrick

GasBandit said:

Correction: Everywhere is nuts, and criminals desperately (and incorrectly) try to claim any defense they can to get off. As others have said, "stand your ground" doesn't apply here, and thus this can't be considered illustration of why the law is allegedly "bad."

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One could argue that the law is bad because it begets a certain perception of guns. Or maybe it's the other way around, it represents a culture that some people may consider bad. In any case, I think it's clear you're a gun-happy country. I do consider that bad, but I'm not sure we'll get anywhere discussing it.

(Ah, and you can't get me with my country's murder rates )

EDIT: I actually was a bit scared when, walking around Albuquerque in my first day in the US, I walked in front of a house with signs like 'TRESPASSERS WILL BE SHOT' or 'NO TRESPASSERS' or something like that (There had been a few recent news of shootings). I'm not saying it's logical, but it happened. It also felt uncomfortable when people looked at me weird, with suspicion maybe (I guess for walking through a residential area when I was clearly not from there?), but I don't know if it's related.

tegid said:

One could argue that the law is bad because it begets a certain perception of guns. Or maybe it's the other way around, it represents a culture that some people may consider bad. In any case, I think it's clear you're a gun-happy country. I do consider that bad, but I'm not sure we'll get anywhere discussing it.

(Ah, and you can't get me with my country's murder rates )

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Well no, people in your country're just too poor to afford guns these days (I agree with you and am just joking, to be clear)

tegid said:

In any case, I think it's clear you're a gun-happy country. I do consider that bad, but I'm not sure we'll get anywhere discussing it.

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I agree that much of the worlds perception is that the US is gun happy. I don't believe we see ourselves that way, and I'm willing to use deadly force to correct this misperception.

stienman said:

I agree that much of the worlds perception is that the US is gun happy. I don't believe we see ourselves that way, and I'm willing to use deadly force to correct this misperception.

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We don't see you as gun happy, we see you as gun nuts. Or trigger happy, possibly.

Bubble181 said:

nuts

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AAAAAAAAAAH TRIGGER WORD!!! TRIGGER WORD!!! I'm going to need some PTSD therapy really frickin' fast or I'm going to buy a gun, wait a day for the background check, then go wild at a midnight screening of the hobbit!

Actually... that's too much trouble. I'll just go enjoy some twinkies, steak, and violent movies.

tegid said:

EDIT: I actually was a bit scared when, walking around Albuquerque in my first day in the US, I walked in front of a house with signs like 'TRESPASSERS WILL BE SHOT' or 'NO TRESPASSERS' or something like that (There had been a few recent news of shootings). I'm not saying it's logical, but it happened. It also felt uncomfortable when people looked at me weird, with suspicion maybe (I guess for walking through a residential area when I was clearly not from there?), but I don't know if it's related.

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That could also be that you went to Albuquerque. Speaking as someone who lived there for a few years, and still goes back periodically to visit family, people are just kinda nutty there. Not Santa Fe nutty, but still pretty odd.

I actually only spent that one day there and two more days three weeks later. But there's some of that... After that I went to San Diego for two weeks. My girlfriend didn't want me to go see Dark Knight Returns because the shooting had recently happened and I was all 'Woman, this is California it's like a completely different world here' (go prejudice!) (I actually didn't tell her until after the fact).

[Oh, and I actually spent a whole week in Santa Fe, but only once went outside the college I was for a conference.]

ANYWAY GUNS ARE BAD YOU SHOULD FEEL BAD whatever

stienman said:

Actually... that's too much trouble. I'll just go enjoy some twinkies, steak, and violent movies.

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There are no more twinkies....

LordRendar said:

There are no more twinkies....

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Damnit man don't tell him that!

LordRendar said:

There are no more twinkies....

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Oh don't worry, I've prepared for this day and my bunker is half guns, half twinkies, and half ammunition.

There may be only enough room for half my family, but that's why the playset in the backyard looks like a thunderdome.

So he shoots at kids who never even got out of the car? Then he just...went home!?!

This will set a precedent. If this guy gets off, and Zimmerman gets off, Florida should just come out and say it: It's legal to shoot black people in Florida.

I tell ya, California is NOT the state that should eventually fall into the ocean.

Zappit said:

So he shoots at kids who never even got out of the car? Then he just...went home!?!

This will set a precedent. If this guy gets off, and Zimmerman gets off, Florida should just come out and say it: It's legal to shoot black people in Florida.

I tell ya, California is NOT the state that should eventually fall into the ocean.

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Correction, it's only legal for rich people to kill anyone they want. No need to be false by omission by narrowing the field overly much.

GasBandit said:

Correction, it's only legal for rich people to kill anyone they want. No need to be false by omission by narrowing the field overly much.

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Fair point. He was rich, which was why he was so genuinely nonchalant about the whole thing.

Cynicism aside, I will actually be surprised if he does get off, since there are living witnesses who can attest it was not self defense.

GasBandit said:

Cynicism aside, I will actually be surprised if he does get off, since there are living witnesses who can attest it was not self defense.

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His one (times the number of living witnesses) mistake.

stienman said:

I agree that much of the worlds perception is that the US is gun happy. I don't believe we see ourselves that way, and I'm willing to use deadly force to correct this misperception.

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--Patrick