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Avengers: Age of Ultron (spoiler thread!)

May 1, 2015#1

Ravenpoe

With this movie having just come out, I thought it prudent to have a thread just for spoilerific discussion, so that the other can still be about hype and predictions without ruining the movie for anyone else.

I just got back from seeing it, aaaand... I'm disappointed.

I enjoyed the flick, and thought it was a fun action romp, and have no regrets about seeing it. But it felt poorly paced, the tension never really felt like it was rising or falling, and some characters (the Maximoff twins, Vision) felt like they didn't get nearly enough screen time or development. Ultron also could have used more screen time, his genesis comes about fairly quickly, and the next time we see him he's already made himself a completely new robot body and army, with how he did this hand waved with some passing comments about robotics facilities being infected.

The humor was good. I enjoyed the lighthearted tone, and Ultron himself was funnier than I expected, while also being able to appear menacing. I think I would have preferred he be played a bit more straight, as I was expecting a much more calculating genius than this unhinged android. And the twins just falling in line to be his minions right away seemed odd, as well as the setup for Wanda letting Stark take the staff to begin with. Was she reading the future? Did she know he would make Ultron? Or was she just banking on him doing something crazy?

tl;dr fun action movie, left me feeling a bit underwhelmed. But at least motherfuckin' Thanos was in the end stinger.

May 2, 2015#2

bhamv3

Honestly, I agree with a lot of your criticisms, though on the whole I still found the movie to be a satisfying and enjoyable experience. Possibly because I don't really have a very refined taste in movies.

As for why Wanda let Stark take the scepter, I think it's the last option: She knew Stark has a tendency to do things because he can, before he really thinks about whether he should. If he's given something as powerful as the scepter, whatever he created from it would almost certainly implode on him.

May 2, 2015#3

Thread Necromancer

I saw Wanda's letting Stark take the scepter as a ... wow, ok, his vision is fucked up and he might do my job for me (aka, killing everyone). Let's see where this goes.

I enjoyed the movie. Not as much so as the first, but I did really enjoy it. James Spader did fantastic. Scarlet was fantastic (I'll be in my bunk). The nice throw in of Hawkeye having a family and such was a bit of a 'wow' moment I thought. Not so much that he should, but that they included it, and did so imo tastefully. I really enjoyed that.

I can gripe that some parts were loose, and some just poor taste, but overall, I did enjoy the film.

May 2, 2015#4

filmfanatic

I also enjoyed the film, even if it did feel a bit rushed at points. Apparently, Joss Whedon's director's cuit clocked in at around 3 hours and 20 minutes, so they basically cut out an hour of material. That explains the rushed feeling. That said, I still liked it. I thought James Spader was good as Ultron and really liked how they gave Hawkeye more to actually do and offered more to his character. I also thought that Andy Serkis was good in the brief time we got him as Ulysses Klaue.

Just curious, how did other peoples' theaters respond when the Vision picked up Mjolnir? The audience I was with went dead silent for a moment before a few folks remarked, "Oh, my god."

May 2, 2015#5

Reverent-one

Thread Necromancer said:
I saw Wanda's letting Stark take the scepter as a ... wow, ok, his vision is fucked up and he might do my job for me (aka, killing everyone). Let's see where this goes.

Yeah, she says as much the first time they meet Ultron in the church.

Wanda Maximoff: I wanted him to face his fear, to create something we could use against him.

filmfanatic said:
Just curious, how did other peoples' theaters respond when the Vision picked up Mjolnir? The audience I was with went dead silent for a moment before a few folks remarked, "Oh, my god."

I think it was silence or gasps followed by some laughter at the Avenger's responses.

May 2, 2015#6

SpecialKO

In my theater, there was a pause of dead silence, then it erupted in wild cheering and applause (with laughter at the Avengers' expressions).

May 2, 2015#7

Hailey Knight

filmfanatic said:
Just curious, how did other peoples' theaters respond when the Vision picked up Mjolnir? The audience I was with went dead silent for a moment before a few folks remarked, "Oh, my god."

No pause--theater-wide laughter.

Got back a little bit ago. It was pretty good, though I'd rank it under four or five of the other Marvel movies. It's actually getting hard to rank these; eventually there will be enough of them to count as a TV show's season. I agree that it felt rushed and I'm curious to see the director's cut, since they cut all of Tom Hiddleston's stuff (however much or little that was) and probably some stuff with the twins.

It seemed really weird to kill off Quicksilver, aside from Whedon's need to kill off a character in whatever he does. If most of the original Avengers were leaving the team, that would solve there being a glut of too many characters on the team, so there's no need to off a new character who didn't really get a chance to do much.

Spader was great, I liked Bruce and Natasha's scenes, his leaving was sad but not unexpected, lots of great one-liners. I'd still put the first Avengers as a better overall movie, but this was a lot of fun regardless.

May 2, 2015#8

Ravenpoe

Zero Esc said:
No pause--theater-wide laughter.

Got back a little bit ago. It was pretty good, though I'd rank it under four or five of the other Marvel movies. It's actually getting hard to rank these; eventually there will be enough of them to count as a TV show's season. I agree that it felt rushed and I'm curious to see the director's cut, since they cut all of Tom Hiddleston's stuff (however much or little that was) and probably some stuff with the twins.

It seemed really weird to kill off Quicksilver, aside from Whedon's need to kill off a character in whatever he does. If most of the original Avengers were leaving the team, that would solve there being a glut of too many characters on the team, so there's no need to off a new character who didn't really get a chance to do much.

Spader was great, I liked Bruce and Natasha's scenes, his leaving was sad but not unexpected, lots of great one-liners. I'd still put the first Avengers as a better overall movie, but this was a lot of fun regardless.

Even though I poo-poo'd the movie in my original post a bit, I do still think it was really fun, and enjoyed myself. I'd still like to see that directors cut, because the pacing was just awful, and maybe it could fill in some of those moments that felt needed.

If I had to rank the movies, it would go Guardians of the Galaxy, Captain America: Winter Soldier, Avengers 1 and then Avengers 2. And then everything else. And then Ang Lee's Hulk.

May 2, 2015#9

Hailey Knight

Ravenpoe said:
Even though I poo-poo'd the movie in my original post a bit, I do still think it was really fun, and enjoyed myself. I'd still like to see that directors cut, because the pacing was just awful, and maybe it could fill in some of those moments that felt needed.

If I had to rank the movies, it would go Guardians of the Galaxy, Captain America: Winter Soldier, Avengers 1 and then Avengers 2. And then everything else. And then Ang Lee's Hulk.

I'd probably still put the first Captain America above Avengers 2.

On Marvel movies in general, there was another Ant-Man trailer before this (I'd only seen the first one before). Looks a lot better than it did and I'm up for seeing it now.

May 2, 2015#10

Ravenpoe

Zero Esc said:
I'd probably still put the first Captain America above Avengers 2.

That's probably fair. I did really enjoy Captain America: The First Avenger. Chris Evans just owns that role. I'd still put Avengers 2 above the Thor movies, though. And above Iron Man 2 and 3.

May 2, 2015#11

Dei

How does Thor know about the stone found in Guardians? Just by virtue of being in Asgard, or did I miss something?

May 2, 2015#12

Cheesy1

I'm sure, besides Earth, that most of the galaxy heard about Ronin's assault on Xandar. I would think that the Asgardians would be one of the races most well-versed about the Infinity Stones, considering they had the Infinity Gauntlet in their possession at one point.

May 3, 2015#13

Hailey Knight

Dei said:
How does Thor know about the stone found in Guardians? Just by virtue of being in Asgard, or did I miss something?

Asgard probably keeps tabs on big galactic goings-on, but it's even likely this was covered in the hour of cut content.

I had moments where it felt like the movie assumed a few things. There were a couple points where it felt like "you're supposed to be watching Agents of SHIELD," which I haven't. I wasn't lost, but I'm guessing the whole enhancements thing comes from there.

May 3, 2015#14

Covar

Zero Esc said:
Asgard probably keeps tabs on big galactic goings-on, but it's even likely this was covered in the hour of cut content.

I had moments where it felt like the movie assumed a few things. There were a couple points where it felt like "you're supposed to be watching Agents of SHIELD," which I haven't. I wasn't lost, but I'm guessing the whole enhancements thing comes from there.

And Fox having rights to the word mutant.

The asguardians had the collector watching a stone for them. When his place got wrecked because of another stone they were probably informed about it.

May 3, 2015#15

Hailey Knight

Covar said:
The asguardians had the collector watching a stone for them. When his place got wrecked because of another stone they were probably informed about it.

Right, one of the many things I've probably forgotten from Thor 2.

May 3, 2015#16

GasBandit

WORTHY

May 3, 2015#17

PatrThom

GasBandit said:
WORTHY

That does beg a question.
Would the elevator be able to go up?

--Patrick

May 3, 2015#18

filmfanatic

May 3, 2015#19

GasBandit

PatrThom said:
That does beg a question.
Would the elevator be able to go up?

--Patrick

... You haven't seen the movie, have you.

Why are you in the spoilers thread if you haven't watched the movie?

Anyway, the elevator scenario is specifically discussed in the movie, complete with "The elevator is worthy!" quote.

May 3, 2015#20

Dei

May 3, 2015#21

PatrThom

GasBandit said:
Why are you in the spoilers thread if you haven't watched the movie?

To get it off my list of unread threads, and I skim quickly so I don't get caught in any spoilers.

--Patrick

May 3, 2015#22

GasBandit

PatrThom said:
To get it off my list of unread threads, and I skim quickly so I don't get caught in any spoilers.

--Patrick

Middle click to open in new tab, then immediately close new tab without switching to it.

May 3, 2015#23

Gryfter

Saw it, liked it... definitely had some pacing issues but overall still a great superhero flick.

May 3, 2015#24

bhamv3

So, inanimate objects can "lift" Mjolnir, presumably since they're not alive so there's no issue of worthiness or not.

What if an inanimate object is given consciousness after it's already lifting Mjolnir? I have this mental image of Stark building an elevator that can be controlled by Jarvis. The elevator starts out with no AI loaded in its computer. It opens, and Thor drops the hammer into the elevator. So far so good. Then Stark uploads Jarvis into the elevator's computer. And the elevator suddenly falls inexorably to ground level, or the hammer falls through the elevator's floor.

And then Stark would probably then try to experiment with this, scientifically. Build a series of elevator platforms, one atop another. The top one has the full Jarvis AI suite loaded into it. The one at the bottom simply has a rudimentary "if-then" statement loaded into its memory, sort of like "if button is pressed, then go up". And in between, there are a series of elevator platforms with AI programs of increasing sophistication as you go up.

Thor drops the hammer on the top platform. Presumably it's too smart to hold the hammer, so the platform falls downwards. How far does it go down until it reaches a platform that's deemed "not alive" and thus can hold up the hammer?

... I really should be concentrating on my work instead.

May 3, 2015#25

evilmike

bhamv3 said:
So, inanimate objects can "lift" Mjolnir, presumably since they're not alive so there's no issue of worthiness or not.

What if an inanimate object is given consciousness after it's already lifting Mjolnir? I have this mental image of Stark building an elevator that can be controlled by Jarvis. The elevator starts out with no AI loaded in its computer. It opens, and Thor drops the hammer into the elevator. So far so good. Then Stark uploads Jarvis into the elevator's computer. And the elevator suddenly falls inexorably to ground level, or the hammer falls through the elevator's floor.

And then Stark would probably then try to experiment with this, scientifically. Build a series of elevator platforms, one atop another. The top one has the full Jarvis AI suite loaded into it. The one at the bottom simply has a rudimentary "if-then" statement loaded into its memory, sort of like "if button is pressed, then go up". And in between, there are a series of elevator platforms with AI programs of increasing sophistication as you go up.

Thor drops the hammer on the top platform. Presumably it's too smart to hold the hammer, so the platform falls downwards. How far does it go down until it reaches a platform that's deemed "not alive" and thus can hold up the hammer?

... I really should be concentrating on my work instead.

Um... if you're trying to figure out if a machine with Jarvis' consciousness could wield the hammer of Thor, you might need to re-watch the movie...

May 3, 2015#26

PatrThom

GasBandit said:
Middle click to open in new tab, then immediately close new tab without switching to it.

Or just "mark forums read"

--Patrick

May 3, 2015#27

bhamv3

evilmike said:
Um... if you're trying to figure out if a machine with Jarvis' consciousness could wield the hammer of Thor, you might need to re-watch the movie...

View attachment 18169

Vision is much more than just Jarvis loaded into a robot body though. For one thing, he's got that shiny thing in his forehead...

May 3, 2015#28

Ravenpoe

bhamv3 said:
So, inanimate objects can "lift" Mjolnir, presumably since they're not alive so there's no issue of worthiness or not.

What if an inanimate object is given consciousness after it's already lifting Mjolnir? I have this mental image of Stark building an elevator that can be controlled by Jarvis. The elevator starts out with no AI loaded in its computer. It opens, and Thor drops the hammer into the elevator. So far so good. Then Stark uploads Jarvis into the elevator's computer. And the elevator suddenly falls inexorably to ground level, or the hammer falls through the elevator's floor.

And then Stark would probably then try to experiment with this, scientifically. Build a series of elevator platforms, one atop another. The top one has the full Jarvis AI suite loaded into it. The one at the bottom simply has a rudimentary "if-then" statement loaded into its memory, sort of like "if button is pressed, then go up". And in between, there are a series of elevator platforms with AI programs of increasing sophistication as you go up.

Thor drops the hammer on the top platform. Presumably it's too smart to hold the hammer, so the platform falls downwards. How far does it go down until it reaches a platform that's deemed "not alive" and thus can hold up the hammer?

... I really should be concentrating on my work instead.

Clearly, they should have just uploaded a basic AI into all that machinery that was flying the city into the air, and then Thor could have just sat his hammer on top of it.

May 3, 2015#29

GasBandit

bhamv3 said:
So, inanimate objects can "lift" Mjolnir, presumably since they're not alive so there's no issue of worthiness or not.

What if an inanimate object is given consciousness after it's already lifting Mjolnir? I have this mental image of Stark building an elevator that can be controlled by Jarvis. The elevator starts out with no AI loaded in its computer. It opens, and Thor drops the hammer into the elevator. So far so good. Then Stark uploads Jarvis into the elevator's computer. And the elevator suddenly falls inexorably to ground level, or the hammer falls through the elevator's floor.

And then Stark would probably then try to experiment with this, scientifically. Build a series of elevator platforms, one atop another. The top one has the full Jarvis AI suite loaded into it. The one at the bottom simply has a rudimentary "if-then" statement loaded into its memory, sort of like "if button is pressed, then go up". And in between, there are a series of elevator platforms with AI programs of increasing sophistication as you go up.

Thor drops the hammer on the top platform. Presumably it's too smart to hold the hammer, so the platform falls downwards. How far does it go down until it reaches a platform that's deemed "not alive" and thus can hold up the hammer?

... I really should be concentrating on my work instead.

As I understand it, the implied rationale for why Vision can lift Mjolnir (assuming one rejects Thor's assertion he is "Worthy") is because he is artificial, and thus not actually capable of his own morality - he is constrained by his programming, albeit encoded into biotech hardware. Thus, an elevator would similarly be able to transport Mjolnir anywhere it would normally be capable of transporting a 40 pound hammer.

However, if the elevator were to descend, either under its own power or in freefall, and a conscious (unWorthy) being attempted to stop it, either Mjolnir would push through the floor and continue to fall, or if the floor is sturdy enough to hold the hammer and the being attempting to stop the elevator is not of sufficient strength to destroy the elevator with his efforts, he would be unable to stop or slow the elevator, given that Mjolnir's inertia is not allowed to be altered by such a person. IE, Iron Man would probably be unable to prevent the elevator's descent by pushing from below, but may perhaps bend the floor around it some, whereas the hulk, trying to pull the elevator cables from above, might break the cables, or tear the winch off the elevator car, or even tear the car itself in half as Mjolnir continues its descent as would an unpreturbed 40 lb hammer.

However, as we have seen earlier when Thor incapacitated Loki by simply knocking him on his back and resting Mjolnir on his chest, Mjolnir's unchecked delta V is still no more than one would expect from a 40 lb hammer - Mjolnir did not crush Loki's ribcage into paste, even if it didn't allow him to alter its velocity (or lack thereof, movement of earth notwithstanding) and get up.

May 4, 2015#30

Frank

I liked it more than Avengers, but it's still just ok in my books. Kind of wish Vibranium upgraded Ultron would have been more than just a swarm threat at the end. Did love that they took riddled with the neurosis of his creator bit from comic Pym created Ultron and just copy and pasted the idea with the Tony Stark version. There were too many characters to give enough screen time and fleshing out to everyone (Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver and Vision) but they did a fine job with the time allotted. Wasn't really a fan of how Vision was introduced (suddenly Thor!).

I'm gonna blame the quick killing off of Quicksilver on someone in charge reading Ultimates 3 and being like, fuck that, we need to kill someone, one of these two is dead right now.

Oh, and jacked Andy Serkis as who I assume is Ulysses Klaw might have been my favorite part of the movie. Andy Serkis is the unsung fucking hero of character acting. He better be back in the Black Panther flick.

May 4, 2015#31

Hailey Knight

I forgot about Andy Serkis. That was an unexpected appearance.

May 4, 2015#32

bhamv3

I love how he says cuttlefish.

May 4, 2015#33

D

Dubyamn

It was an okay movie. A big bowl of vanilla pudding. Enjoyable but utterly utterly forgettable.

Ultron was a dumb villain. I'll start with the big failures and then go onto the bits that probably wouldn't be a problem if I had liked him better.

The biggest problem with him was that he never seemed like a big threat to the heroes. I mean every time he went up against the heroes he got kicked in the teeth without really threatening them. Iron Man beat him which is okay cause Iron Man is established as kind of the best of the Avengers able to take the fight against the Hulk the distance and even go a few rounds with Thor without either of them taking any real damage but to have him face off against the big bad without any kind of damage? Not a great way to present the big bad as a threat. Then he fights Captain America a fight which CA goes into saying that he knows he can't win but through out the entire fight CA seems to be giving better than he gets. It just added up to a really lackluster Villain that was talked up as a big threat and then was unable to inflict any damage on the heroes.

The second big problem was that his ultimate plan was DUMB with a capital D, U, M and B. I mean they establish that he was able to gain control of a huge portion of the industrial output of the entire world. Stealing all sorts of technology in order to build himself an army. He also stole an arbitrarily large amount of Vibranium which for lack of any better words is a magical element. So of course his master plan is to levitate a huge rock and then slam it back down into the earth. I mean I know it tied into his speech to the Black Widow about the purity of Meteors and all and it allowed Ultron to set himself up for a huge heroes vrs villain showdown but it seemed like an incredibly inefficient use of his incalculable resources and just a dumb plan overall. I mean the amount of power he used levitating the city up could have wiped out all life on the planet on it's own.

Also I hated James Spader as his voice which is disappointing because I love James Spader and I thought that his voice work in the trailer was perfect. Just the right amount of arrogance and menace you want in a villain. A balance he kept all of two minutes. The arrogance stayed throughout the movie but the menace just wasn't there ever again.

And finally the very petty complaint. I hated the fact that they gave Ultron lips and human mannerisms. The lips were ridiculous and they never even bothered to explain why he had them. They also just looked stupid. The human mannerisms made no sense. He wasn't based off of a human mind and they couldn't be unconscious movements so they are obviously an affectation by Ultron but why the hell would he do that? Why would his brow furrow in anger why would he bring his hand up to sooth a man who's arm he just tore off?

Course besides that I liked it. The action sequences were fun if a little mindless. The character interactions were great even if they couldn't get us to believe the Black Widow, Bruce Banner romance without having everybody and sundry talk about it trying to convince us it was totally a thing.

*Originally posted this in the unspoilered thread

May 4, 2015#34

Ravenpoe

Dubyamn said:
And finally the very petty complaint. I hated the fact that they gave Ultron lips and human mannerisms. The lips were ridiculous and they never even bothered to explain why he had them.

They actually did explain that... kinda. There's a brief moment where Tony Stark is trying to figure out Ultron's plan, and mentions that keeping his creations in a humanoid form doesn't make sense, that he's trying to emulate humanity... or somesuch. It's also slightly implied that his brain was based off of Tony Stark, what with his overpowering arrogance and the fact that he uses one of Tony's quotes with Andy Serkis, and then goes ballistic when he gets compared to Stark. This was probably better established somewhere in the hour of content that was cut.

May 4, 2015#35

D

Dubyamn

Ravenpoe said:
They actually did explain that... kinda. There's a brief moment where Tony Stark is trying to figure out Ultron's plan, and mentions that keeping his creations in a humanoid form doesn't make sense, that he's trying to emulate humanity... or somesuch. It's also slightly implied that his brain was based off of Tony Stark, what with his overpowering arrogance and the fact that he uses one of Tony's quotes with Andy Serkis, and then goes ballistic when he gets compared to Stark. This was probably better established somewhere in the hour of content that was cut.

I did catch that Stark said that he didn't know why Ultron was keeping the humanoid figure. I guess I just never combined that with the idea that he was seeking to emulate humanity just the writers acknowledging that for a great deal of tasks the human form isn't very efficient and that a variety of forms might have been better for fighting and what not. And yes the fact that Ultron was trying to emulate humanity probably is what was left on the cutting room floor but it does very little to justify how stupid the lips look or really save that part of the movie for me.

May 4, 2015#36

Ravenpoe

Dubyamn said:
I did catch that Stark said that he didn't know why Ultron was keeping the humanoid figure. I guess I just never combined that with the idea that he was seeking to emulate humanity just the writers acknowledging that for a great deal of tasks the human form isn't very efficient and that a variety of forms might have been better for fighting and what not. And yes the fact that Ultron was trying to emulate humanity probably is what was left on the cutting room floor but it does very little to justify how stupid the lips look or really save that part of the movie for me.

I think his goal was to become the 'new' humanity. He mentions that humans need to evolve, and that's what he's doing. The point of creating the Vision body, with actual flesh (albeit bonded with vibranium) and a real organic brain (that Wanda can even read) is because he wants to become a real boy, furthering the Pinocchio theme. Once his artificial meteor hits and wipes out the current humans, he in his newly organic body would become the first of the new humans, which he views as far better. That's the whole reason it's called his 'vision'.

But again, this is mostly speculation of what I think was cut out.

May 6, 2015#37

CynicismKills

Serkis was definitely Klaw, his MO has always been stealing Vibranium, and losing the hand means he can get that sonic weapon if he shows up again in another movie (and he'd better, he was awesome).

Vision is not Jarvis, he says so himself. He's a new being now, a combination of Jarvis and Ultron's programming and functions, with the Mind Gem cherry on top.

All in all I liked the movie. I thought Spader was pretty good as Ultron, it reminded me a lot of how he plays Reddington in Blacklist. Mixing this overwhelming ego and confidence with an almost insane twist of calm and a facade of humor. The sudden bursts of rage where those discs on the side of his face retracted, making him lose the more human face he built for himself and resemble his clone's designs (closer to the look of Ultron in the comics).

Personally I saw the Widow/Banner thing as her trying to save and help him, but after SW's mind-fuck they end up wanting to save each other. She didn't present herself as damaged to Banner until the middle of the movie, but in the end he removed himself from the equation to save both of them, not just her. I feel like people framed Widow as some kind of damsel, but she really put it all aside every time she needed to instead of sitting and crying about it. Even in the end, she doesn't go after Banner, she goes back to work.[DOUBLEPOST=1430943630,1430943325][/DOUBLEPOST]

Dei said:
How does Thor know about the stone found in Guardians? Just by virtue of being in Asgard, or did I miss something?

Thor sees the gems in the vision he got in the pool, or at least I think that's what it implied. Each gem's original form is shown and then shattered to reveal the stone inside.[DOUBLEPOST=1430943755][/DOUBLEPOST]Oh, and no Loki! Hooray!

May 6, 2015#38

ThatNickGuy

I might have missed it in all the excitement, but did they explain why they moved their base of operations from Tony's tower to what I would assume will be Avengers Mansion?

May 6, 2015#39

Ravenpoe

ThatNickGuy said:
I might have missed it in all the excitement, but did they explain why they moved their base of operations from Tony's tower to what I would assume will be Avengers Mansion?

That's still Tony's Tower. They just put the Avengers logo on it at some point. In Avengers 1, the other letters of STARK fell off, leaving only the A.

May 6, 2015#40

ThatNickGuy

Ravenpoe said:
That's still Tony's Tower. They just put the Avengers logo on it at some point. In Avengers 1, the other letters of STARK fell off, leaving only the A.

No no, I mean at the end, with that facility out in the middle of nowhere.

May 6, 2015#41

CynicismKills

I don't remember them saying anything about it, but I figure it's because Stark is bowing out of the Avengers thing, and the Tower was initially Stark Tower.

May 6, 2015#42

Ravenpoe

ThatNickGuy said:
No no, I mean at the end, with that facility out in the middle of nowhere.

Oh, I just assumed that was a Shield facility.

May 6, 2015#43

Sparhawk

For some reason I think that I remember that it had the Avengers A on the outside. Might have been a Shield facility at one time, but I'm not sure.

May 6, 2015#44

GasBandit

Some of these were so obvious I wouldn't call them easter eggs, and some of these I didn't catch.

May 6, 2015#45

CynicismKills

I caught the Jocasta thing but couldn't remember who it was, so that was cool. The Betty/Veronica thing is pretty slick, never would have thought of that.

May 6, 2015#46

CynicismKills

I like reading all the whiny posts in other places about Ultron's "lips." If he didn't have them he'd have looked like a Muppet with his jaw just waggling up and down.

May 7, 2015#47

tegid

Sparhawk said:
For some reason I think that I remember that it had the Avengers A on the outside. Might have been a Shield facility at one time, but I'm not sure.

I remember that too. And wasn't it captioned 'New base of the avengers' or something like that? Or someone said it.

May 7, 2015#48

bhamv3

tegid said:
I remember that too. And wasn't it captioned 'New base of the avengers' or something like that? Or someone said it.

The caption said something like "New Avengers Facility". Which I thought had a nice double meaning, because it's a new headquarters for the Avengers after their last one (Stark's tower) was trashed. It's also a facility for training the new Avengers.

May 7, 2015#49

Hailey Knight

Having several members of the group retire (at least temporarily) felt like a more mature and rational solution to getting them out of the picture and cutting down the character count than Whedon's usual method.

May 7, 2015#50

D

Dubyamn

CynicismKills said:
I like reading all the whiny posts in other places about Ultron's "lips." If he didn't have them he'd have looked like a Muppet with his jaw just waggling up and down.

Why would he need to have his jaw move at all? He's a robot, everything he said came out of a speaker anyway.

Ravenpoe said:
Oh, I just assumed that was a Shield facility.

I kind of assumed that it was part of Theta Protocol that they talked about in AoS. Even though in the show they only focused on SHEILD keeping the Helicarrier up and running but I mean building a facility for the Avengers probably would be a rounding error on that project.

May 7, 2015#51

CynicismKills

Dubyamn said:
Why would he need to have his jaw move at all? He's a robot, everything he said came out of a speaker anyway.

I kind of assumed that it was part of Theta Protocol that they talked about in AoS. Even though in the show they only focused on SHEILD keeping the Helicarrier up and running but I mean building a facility for the Avengers probably would be a rounding error on that project.

With someone like Spader doing the voice, no facial movement at all would have made for a very boring time every time Ultron spoke.

May 7, 2015#52

Ravenpoe

CynicismKills said:
With someone like Spader doing the voice, no facial movement at all would have made for a very boring time every time Ultron spoke.

Also, as stated many times before, he was trying to emulate humanity. So the lip whiners can get over it.

May 7, 2015#53

CynicismKills

Ravenpoe said:
Also, as stated many times before, he was trying to emulate humanity. So the lip whiners can get over it.

That too. I think it looked good and the small things like his face shape changing when he had his rage outbursts were neat additions.

May 7, 2015#54

D

Dubyamn

Ravenpoe said:
Also, as stated many times before, he was trying to emulate humanity. So the lip whiners can get over it.

Well stated in fan theory not in the movie. Which means that it's still a problem with the movie.

Also I stand by my opinion that it looked dumb to have the robot having moving lips.

May 7, 2015#55

CynicismKills

Dubyamn said:
Well stated in fan theory not in the movie. Which means that it's still a problem with the movie.

Also I stand by my opinion that it looked dumb to have the robot having moving lips.

But they mention he's not trying to destroy humanity, but evolve it. Had he gotten his Vision body instead of it being stolen he would have been even more human-like. You can dislike the lips all you want, but he's obviously not as free of humanity as he tries to claim.

May 7, 2015#56

Covar

Dubyamn said:
Well stated in fan theory not in the movie. Which means that it's still a problem with the movie.

Also I stand by my opinion that it looked dumb to have the robot having moving lips.

The whole movie is filled with him making Pinocchio references and Stark and Banner speculating on that exact matter. Pretty stated in the movie I would say.

May 7, 2015#57

D

Dubyamn

CynicismKills said:
But they mention he's not trying to destroy humanity, but evolve it. Had he gotten his Vision body instead of it being stolen he would have been even more human-like. You can dislike the lips all you want, but he's obviously not as free of humanity as he tries to claim.

The movie doesn't really try to say whether he is trying to preform a catastrophic event that will kill humans but for a group of hardcore survivors that will give birht to an evolved humanity or if he's planning on wiping out humanity and then the new robots in living vibranum bodies will be the "new" humans.

In either case it doesn't necessarily explain why he would devote the resources to make the little motors to give himself "lips."

May 7, 2015#58

Ravenpoe

Dubyamn said:
The movie doesn't really try to say whether he is trying to preform a catastrophic event that will kill humans but for a group of hardcore survivors that will give birht to an evolved humanity or if he's planning on wiping out humanity and then the new robots in living vibranum bodies will be the "new" humans.

In either case it doesn't necessarily explain why he would devote the resources to make the little motors to give himself "lips."

Shouldn't the fact that he uses a humanoid bodyshape bother you more? I mean, it's highly inefficient.

May 7, 2015#59

D

Dubyamn

Ravenpoe said:
Shouldn't the fact that he uses a humanoid bodyshape bother you more? I mean, it's highly inefficient.

Him using a humanoid body is a hold over from the source material. Only so much they can really change with that and still have him be a recognizable villain.

The lips however I don't believe were ever a part of the source material. However they served the dual functions of 1. Taking me out of the movie every time Ultron talked and 2. Making the big bad villain into a joke.

May 7, 2015#60

@Li3n

Dubyamn said:
The lips however I don't believe were ever a part of the source material.

Yeah, no moving lips in still images...

Seriously dude, you just have a weird issue with it...

...

That being said, they could have just made his weird speaker cheek things move when he spoke i guess... would have been interesting to see how people would react to that...

May 7, 2015#61

D

Dubyamn

@Li3n said:
Yeah, no moving lips in still images...

Not actually moving no but generally when I read comics the people talking in panels have their mouths open and when they aren't their mouths are closed.

Seriously dude, you just have a weird issue with it...

I actually just like arguing on the internet. Honestly that's my wierdiest issue.

...

That being said, they could have just made his weird speaker cheek things move when he spoke i guess... would have been interesting to see how people would react to that...

Now we're cooking with gas. Like I said I acknowledge that the lips didn't break the movie for me. They were just a stupid part of a movie that I probably would have let pass me by if I liked the rest of the movie a little more.

May 7, 2015#62

Ravenpoe

Dubyamn said:
I actually just like arguing on the internet. Honestly that's my wierdiest issue.

Nothing wrong with that!

Also, fuck you! :awesome:

May 7, 2015#63

Dei

Also, weirdest.

May 7, 2015#64

Tinwhistler

They really should have went with the source material.

Quicksilver grabs Thor's hammer, and rather than it not budging, it takes him out of "quicktime", when in reality, he shoulda just said "hmph, can't move it, moving on."
The fact that the booze Thor had in his little flask was "distilled for 1000 years" somehow means it's more potent? Alcohol is alcohol. No matter how long it was distilled, the most it can get is EverClear strength, and a little thimbleful wouldn't make you falling down drunk. Excelsior!
Vision can burn Ultron copies out of the internet, but not out of the Ultron bodies that are connected to the internet?
They completely changed Scarlet Witch's powers.
Nick Fury, who is presumed dead by SHIELD and the world, and in charge of nothing, comes back with a SHIELD helicarrier at the end.
Breaking the flying city into a million chunks doesn't change the amount of mass or force impacting the earth. It would still have triggered a cataclysmic event. A million tons of one rock, or a million tons of a million rocks is still a million tons. Where did all that mass go when they broke it up?

But yeah, those lips. Those ruined it.

May 7, 2015#65

GasBandit

Wouldn't a million tons of a million exploded granules of dirt be more affected by wind resistance on the way down than one million ton clod?

May 7, 2015#66

CynicismKills

Ultron's "weird speaker things" fold away when he's angry.

Also

Dubyamn said:
Making the big bad villain into a joke.

If all it takes is an emotive face to take you out of a movie I can't imagine you're any fun at any comic book movie. Eisenberg's accent was balls, but I didn't let it ruin the movie for me.

May 7, 2015#67

Tinwhistler

GasBandit said:
Wouldn't a million tons of a million exploded granules of dirt be more affected by wind resistance on the way down than one million ton clod?

Perhaps if it was blown up into salt crystal sized pieces, and they were well dispersed. That wasn't really what we saw in the movie. We saw a large central explosion which would have blown the city into variable sized pieces, with most of it having enough mass to rip through the atmosphere without too much issue.

But even if the explosion was so powerful as to disperse the floating city in super-tiny pieces and completely vaporize them in the air, then we essentially have a multi-megaton nuclear air burst so powerful it would have had cataclysmic effects for miles, and taken the helicarrier clear out of the sky. There's no way it could have gotten away in time. It would have been the equivalent of the Tunguska event, except on an even bigger scale. That meteor was only estimated to be a few hundred feet in size, and flattened 770 sq miles of forest.

Either you have a lot of mass hitting the earth, or a lot of mass being converted to energy. And a lot of the kinetic energy already existing in the falling city being converted to heat and light. E=MC2.

So either way, that scene is more dumb than lips

May 7, 2015#68

GasBandit

Tinwhistler said:
So either way, that scene is more dumb than lips

What's REALLY dumb is Pym's stance in that comic panel. I can feel my thighs burning just looking at it!

May 7, 2015#69

Frank

Tinwhistler said:
Perhaps if it was blown up into salt crystal sized pieces, and they were well dispersed. That wasn't really what we saw in the movie. We saw a large central explosion which would have blown the city into variable sized pieces, with most of it having enough mass to rip through the atmosphere without too much issue.

But even if the explosion was so powerful as to disperse the floating city in super-tiny pieces and completely vaporize them in the air, then we essentially have a multi-megaton nuclear air burst so powerful it would have had cataclysmic effects for miles, and taken the helicarrier clear out of the sky. There's no way it could have gotten away in time. It would have been the equivalent of the Tunguska event, except on an even bigger scale. That meteor was only estimated to be a few hundred feet in size, and flattened 770 sq miles of forest.

Either you have a lot of mass hitting the earth, or a lot of mass being converted to energy. And a lot of the kinetic energy already existing in the falling city being converted to heat and light. E=MC2.

So either way, that scene is more dumb than lips

Maybe the vibranium reactor thingy explosion vaporized large quantities of the mass.

May 7, 2015#70

@Li3n

Tinwhistler said:
They completely changed Scarlet Witch's powers.

So they stayed true to the comics...

May 7, 2015#71

ThatNickGuy

@Li3n said:
So they stayed true to the comics...

Yeah, Scarlet Witch's powers always seemed to be "whatever the writer needs."

May 7, 2015#72

D

Dubyamn

CynicismKills said:
If all it takes is an emotive face to take you out of a movie I can't imagine you're any fun at any comic book movie. Eisenberg's accent was balls, but I didn't let it ruin the movie for me.

Like I've been saying had I liked the rest of the movie better it wouldn't have really been a bother. As it stands the lips are the cherry on top of the terribleness that was Ultron.

May 7, 2015#73

Bowielee

ThatNickGuy said:
Yeah, Scarlet Witch's powers always seemed to be "whatever the writer needs."

This. In all the years I've been reading comic books, I never fully understood what her "Hex Bolt" power was supposed to be. It's supposed to have something to do with changing probability or somesuch, but after Avengers Disassembled, she basically became a mentally unstable Molecule Man.

May 7, 2015#74

Hailey Knight

I think we can all assume at what point in the movie Dubyaman took a piss break.

May 8, 2015#75

D

Dubyamn

What point? I mean obviously they must have made some point crystal clear and I just missed it so at what point?

May 8, 2015#76

Bowielee

Frank said:
Maybe the vibranium reactor thingy explosion vaporized large quantities of the mass.

Tony specifically says that the explosion will vaporize most of the mass, that's the reason that he had to hit it with his Unibeam from the bottom at the same time that it was destroyed from the top. It's explicitly stated in the movie.

May 8, 2015#77

Frank

Bowielee said:
Tony specifically says that the explosion will vaporize most of the mass, that's the reason that he had to hit it with his Unibeam from the bottom at the same time that it was destroyed from the top. It's explicitly stated in the movie.

I don't remember the dialog, but there you go physics whiners.

May 8, 2015#78

Tinwhistler

Bowielee said:
Tony specifically says that the explosion will vaporize most of the mass, that's the reason that he had to hit it with his Unibeam from the bottom at the same time that it was destroyed from the top. It's explicitly stated in the movie.

Yes..but an explosion that powerful would create an airburst orders of magnitude greater than the Tunguska event.

Can't escape physics.

The point, though, wasn't to whine about something I didn't like about the movie. The point was that most movies have dumb stuff like that in them. You gotta let it go and just enjoy the freaking thing.

May 8, 2015#79

SpecialKO

GasBandit said:
What's REALLY dumb is Pym's stance in that comic panel. I can feel my thighs burning just looking at it!

Man knows the value of leg day.

May 8, 2015#80

Bowielee

Tinwhistler said:
Yes..but an explosion that powerful would create an airburst orders of magnitude greater than the Tunguska event.

Can't escape physics.

The point, though, wasn't to whine about something I didn't like about the movie. The point was that most movies have dumb stuff like that in them. You gotta let it go and just enjoy the freaking thing.

Well, we're dealing with alien gods, radiation creating a big green rage monster, someone with pretty much magical levels of technology and someone on super steroids. That's kind of a given.

May 8, 2015#81

Tinwhistler

Bowielee said:
Well, we're dealing with alien gods, radiation creating a big green rage monster, someone with pretty much magical levels of technology and someone on super steroids. That's kind of a given.

Right...

And yet here we are debating Ultron's lips.

May 8, 2015#82

Shakey

I wonder if ultron has a butt hole. If he thought it important enough to have lips, why not a butt hole?

May 8, 2015#83

PatrThom

Shakey said:
I wonder if ultron has a butt hole. If he thought it important enough to have lips, why not a butt hole?

Now imagining Ultron inviting people to "...kiss his shiny metal butthole."

--Patrick

May 8, 2015#84

evilmike

Shakey said:
I wonder if ultron has a butt hole. If he thought it important enough to have lips, why not a butt hole?

May 8, 2015#85

@Li3n

Tinwhistler said:
Yes..but an explosion that powerful would create an airburst orders of magnitude greater than the Tunguska event.

Fun fact, there's a reason why they don't launch nuclear bombs they plan to airburst inside a giant piece of ground... and why underground testing is a thing...

I mean sure, each engine exploding at the exact moment as the others, and with exactly enough force to just take care of the falling mass is unlikely, but not impossible...

Then again a lot of people seem to think a lead lined fridge wouldn't protect you form a nuclear blast if you're far enough and the lead is thick enough to withstand the radiation, when actually Indy was more likely to break his neck then die from the blast... so people have weird expectations.[DOUBLEPOST=1431115871,1431115794][/DOUBLEPOST]

ThatNickGuy said:
Yeah, Scarlet Witch's powers always seemed to be "whatever the writer needs."

It's magic, because writing bad (or good) luck powers is fucking hard.

PAD did pretty well with Longshot though...

May 8, 2015#86

Bowielee

I suppose I should actually throw in with my opinion. As has been stated it was a fun movie and I really enjoyed it, but it wasn't nearly as good as the first Avengers movie.

The Avengers Assemble tease gave me blue balls.

I thought Ultron was very different from his comic book counterpart, but I didn't hate it. He had better motivations than just "I hate the Avengers and want them all dead" Which was his comic book origin. The whole "it was Jarvis the whole time, wait, no it wasn't" story from the comics was kind of lame.

BTW, how many times HAS Jarvis betrayed the Avengers? It's been quite a few. I think only Agatha Harkness has screwed over her superteam more.

My biggest issue wasn't with the movie itself, but the theater I saw it in. They had the volume down so low, when anybody talked below a certain volume, you had to strain to hear, but that's a criticism of Marcus Theaters (which suck, BTW. Their "ultra" screen is set up so cockeyed that when there's a movie with any subtitles in it, they get cut off by the curve of the bottom of the screen).

ANYWHOOO.

Overall I enjoyed it. I liked the quick look into the background of the characters via their greatest fears, even if it was basically setting up future movies.

Oh, and as for Thor knowing about the infinity gems already revealed. Well, he's an Asgardian. Heimdal can pretty much see anything in the universe he wants. It makes sense that they would know about the events of the Guardians of the Galaxy and Thor was directly involved with all other infinity stones.

But doesn't this all mean that in Infinity War that Vision has to die for Thanos to get the Mind or Soul gem (not sure which it's supposed to be, leaning towards mind because of the color)?[DOUBLEPOST=1431116120,1431115987][/DOUBLEPOST]

@Li3n said:
Fun fact, there's a reason why they don't launch nuclear bombs they plan to airburst inside a giant piece of ground... and why underground testing is a thing...

I mean sure, each engine exploding at the exact moment as the others, and with exactly enough force to just take care of the falling mass is unlikely, but not impossible...

Then again a lot of people seem to think a lead lined fridge wouldn't protect you form a nuclear blast if you're far enough and the lead is thick enough to withstand the radiation, when actually Indy was more likely to break his neck then die from the blast... so people have weird expectations.[DOUBLEPOST=1431115871,1431115794][/DOUBLEPOST]

It's magic, because writing bad (or good) luck powers is fucking hard.

PAD did pretty well with Longshot though...

Luck based powers are just stupid, IMO. But for some reason they keep giving them to people. Domino, Longshot, Black Cat, Scarlet Witch. It's such a vague power.

May 8, 2015#87

CynicismKills

Black Cat's being written pretty horribly right now, too. SpOck got her caught instead of that will-they-won't-they-again dance Pete always did with her, and it ruined her "rep," something she suddenly cares very deeply about. Now she uses her luck powers to steal remorselessly, assembled a bunch of thugs and C-list villains, and then nearly murdered Aunt May and JJJ's dad in a fire to get back one valuable from her old collection.

Anyway, I agree on the Assemble bit. It happened and I heard someone in the front of the theater say "oh you bastard." It was a good moment.

May 8, 2015#88

@Li3n

Bowielee said:
But doesn't this all mean that in Infinity War that Vision has to die for Thanos to get the Mind or Soul gem (not sure which it's supposed to be, leaning towards mind because of the color)?

Well Ultron seemed to be doing fine with just a pseudo-copy of the gem, no reason why Vision can't survive without it...

Maybe he just loses some power and is a bit weaker after or something...

May 8, 2015#89

Bowielee

@Li3n said:
Well Ultron seemed to be doing fine with just a pseudo-copy of the gem, no reason why Vision can't survive without it...

Maybe he just loses some power and is a bit weaker after or something...

My understanding was that the Alien AI was the outer container for the gem, not the gem itself. That means that Ultron doesn't need the gem at all, but Vision was brought to life by the gem itself.

May 8, 2015#90

@Li3n

Bowielee said:
My understanding was that the Alien AI was the outer container for the gem, not the gem itself. That means that Ultron doesn't need the gem at all, but Vision was brought to life by the gem itself.

Didn't they mention at the start that the something inside (aka the mind gem) was the thing with the brain like stuff?

May 8, 2015#91

Bowielee

@Li3n said:
Didn't they mention at the start that the something inside (aka the mind gem) was the thing with the brain like stuff?

No, Ultron even says that human thinking was limited because they were just looking at what was on the outside, not inside. Inside, being the gem. My guess is that the mind gem needed an advanced AI to be able to contain the gem. Hence why Vision can wield it even though it's supposed to be extremely volatile like all the other infinity gems. for instance, the Costmic Cube disintegrating the Red Skull and the explosion that destroys the Collectors lab, and the Aether threatening to kill Jane Foster. Those gems don't like being held by organic creatures, except those with exceptional power. Even Ronin had to put it in his hammer before it destroyed him. I don't think he would have been able to perpetually hold onto the gem without exploding. And Vision is half organic, so that thing should be tearing him apart.

May 8, 2015#92

Sparhawk

But, they did point out that the cells were being "encased" by the vibranium and that may be the reason why it's not tearing him apart.

May 8, 2015#93

Bowielee

Sparhawk said:
But, they did point out that the cells were being "encased" by the vibranium and that may be the reason why it's not tearing him apart.

I think they were bonded with it, not encased by it.

May 9, 2015#94

@Li3n

Bowielee said:
No, Ultron even says that human thinking was limited because they were just looking at what was on the outside, not inside. Inside, being the gem.

Hmm... i distinctly remember hearing Tony saying the thing was containing something when him and Banner where examining the staff.

So Ultron was, at least, wrong.

...

Still, either way, there's no reason to have Vision die witohut the gem, as he's already part Jarvis and part Ultron that got zapped by Thor personality wise...[DOUBLEPOST=1431195276,1431195100][/DOUBLEPOST]

Tinwhistler said:
Vision can burn Ultron copies out of the internet, but not out of the Ultron bodies that are connected to the internet?

Maybe Ultron was smarter then your average fictional computer expert, and just turned off his damn wi fi when he was in danger of being hacked...

Switched to blue tooth for short range coms with his bodies or something.

May 9, 2015#95

Hailey Knight

It occurs to me that before Ultron started his Gundam Wing Operation Meteor fan recreation, he could've shifted all the numbers around for all sorts of things, destroyed the global economy, and caused a worldwide crisis that would've had countries tearing themselves apart.

May 9, 2015#96

GasBandit

Zero Esc said:
It occurs to me that before Ultron started his Gundam Wing Operation Meteor fan recreation, he could've shifted all the numbers around for all sorts of things, destroyed the global economy, and caused a worldwide crisis that would've had countries tearing themselves apart.

Three little words: Grey Goo Scenario

May 9, 2015#97

CynicismKills

Zero Esc said:
It occurs to me that before Ultron started his Gundam Wing Operation Meteor fan recreation, he could've shifted all the numbers around for all sorts of things, destroyed the global economy, and caused a worldwide crisis that would've had countries tearing themselves apart.

Isn't that what Bane was going to do?

May 9, 2015#98

Hailey Knight

CynicismKills said:
Isn't that what Bane was going to do?

I thought he was just screwing with Bruce Wayne's finances.

May 9, 2015#99

CynicismKills

Oh maybe, most of the movie's a vague memory at this point.

May 9, 2015#100

ThatNickGuy

Zero Esc said:
It occurs to me that before Ultron started his Gundam Wing Operation Meteor fan recreation, he could've shifted all the numbers around for all sorts of things, destroyed the global economy, and caused a worldwide crisis that would've had countries tearing themselves apart.

I think that - along with the nuclear missile codes - is exactly what JARVIS was preventing.

May 9, 2015#101

Hailey Knight

ThatNickGuy said:
I think that - along with the nuclear missile codes - is exactly what JARVIS was preventing.

Didn't think of that. Good point.

May 11, 2015#102

Null

Yeah, Ultron was going with a lot of different options, but Jarvis was blocking almost all of them, so he went with the "artifical verneshot" method because it could only be dealt with directly.

As for why the "1,000,000 pieces of Sokovia don't do the same amount of damage as the one big chunk", it's the same reason 200 hand grenade-sized bomblets launched from a firecracker MRLS round don't leave the same kind of crater as a 200-kilo HE shell would. Even if they're the same grade explosive and same total mass, being dispersed over a much larger area reduces the effect exponentially. In part because all the small shockwaves disrupt each other instead of having one MASSIVE pressure wave.

A large verneshot is a mass-extinction level event. Smaller ones have been documented in 2003 in connection with a 1999 eruption in Taiwan, was possibly was caused the destruction of "Atlantis" on San Torini, and Tunguska may also be such an event.

Stark does say that the resulting explosion will vaporize much of the mass of Sokovia, and we see boulder-sized chunks of debris hitting all over the place, probably dispersed over several hundred square miles. Destructive? Yes, very. And the vaporized rock in the upper atmosphere would probably result in cool summers and severe winters for a few years as well as increased precipitation (the rock dust effectively seeding clouds). But those are survivable; a 1,000,000 ton impact on the earth's crust would not be.

May 11, 2015#103

Null

Also, now that I've seen it, I have to say that the complaints about BW revealing she's sterile and the whole "gypsy" thing are stupid. First off, I don't think they mentioned Roma or Gypsy in regards to the twins at all during the movie, they were just said to be "Sokovian", ie a generic Eastern European of some kind. Secondly, Bruce has just seen Natasha get all gooey to the Barton kids, including the one still in the oven, and he says that with him, there's no settling down and having kids, because a) that's one of the things haunting him, and b) he thinks that's what she wants. So it's actually a perfectly appropriate moment for them to talk about it - since that isn't a possible future for them anyway, it's not a reason to not be together. And we see repeatedly from Scarlet Witch's mind influence that her forced sterilization at Red Room is one of the elements of her past that still haunts her. That scene shows both of them as vulnerable, caring people discussing a complicated possible future they both want, and it's emotionally resonant. The Avengers have been beaten by Ultron, badly, a horrific black eye in front of the world, and they all have to re-examine who they are and why they're involved. Between that and Fury showing up with a hovercarrier, War Machine, and rescuing the population of Sokovia - doing the good works that SHIELD *should* be doing - those were probably my favorite parts of the movie.

I cheered a little when the technician from Winter Soldier showed up on the bridge of the Hovercarrier.

Also, I have a sneaking suspicion that Falcon will also show up in final battle in the Director's Cut.

May 11, 2015#104

Hailey Knight

There's a laundry list of what I'll call "Joss Whedon's sins" floating around Tumblr and most of it is exactly the stupid crap you'd expect Tumblr-tots to be complaining about, i.e. do not have stories where bad things can happen to female characters. I disagree with almost every criticism I've seen about the Black Widow sterilization seen, except that it did seem like it was brought up more as a support beam for Banner's backstory than to be about Black Widow, but that shit happens when you're making a movie with 20 characters who could each be the main character in their own superhero movie.

Likewise the thing with the twins, multiple contradiction issues there. Complaint 1: that they're no longer Jewish or Roma (funny; no one complained about this when Quicksilver was in X-Men). Complaint 2: they're Jewish and Roma characters associating with Nazis.

The problem is, Whedon is at the mercy of Marvel on how to handle casting, same as when they give him a checklist of plot points his movie has to hit in order to set up future films, even if it detracts from the current movie's story. Then, it's not Jewish/Roma characters helping Nazis, because the characters are no longer Jewish/Roma and the organization isn't Nazis. True to the comics? Not really, but that's how the MCU is doing it. Hydra, at least its modern incarnation post-WWII, is not a Nazi organization. They haven't shown a desire for race-based genocide, but political genocide as they desire control. Not all fascists are Nazis.

May 11, 2015#105

Bowielee

Zero Esc said:
Not all fascists are Nazis.

But are all Nazis fascists?

May 12, 2015#106

Null

Zero Esc said:
There's a laundry list of what I'll call "Joss Whedon's sins" floating around Tumblr and most of it is exactly the stupid crap you'd expect Tumblr-tots to be complaining about, i.e. do not have stories where bad things can happen to female characters. I disagree with almost every criticism I've seen about the Black Widow sterilization seen, except that it did seem like it was brought up more as a support beam for Banner's backstory than to be about Black Widow, but that shit happens when you're making a movie with 20 characters who could each be the main character in their own superhero movie.

Likewise the thing with the twins, multiple contradiction issues there. Complaint 1: that they're no longer Jewish or Roma (funny; no one complained about this when Quicksilver was in X-Men). Complaint 2: they're Jewish and Roma characters associating with Nazis.

The problem is, Whedon is at the mercy of Marvel on how to handle casting, same as when they give him a checklist of plot points his movie has to hit in order to set up future films, even if it detracts from the current movie's story. Then, it's not Jewish/Roma characters helping Nazis, because the characters are no longer Jewish/Roma and the organization isn't Nazis. True to the comics? Not really, but that's how the MCU is doing it. Hydra, at least its modern incarnation post-WWII, is not a Nazi organization. They haven't shown a desire for race-based genocide, but political genocide as they desire control. Not all fascists are Nazis.

Yeah, the MCU is inspired by the comics, but not beholden to them. They'll change what they want in order to tell the story they want. The important thing is that the *essence* of the characters comes through.

May 12, 2015#107

@Li3n

If Wanda and Pietro are gypsies then the High Evolutionary must have been using bleach as part of whatever gave them powers...[DOUBLEPOST=1431444691,1431444626][/DOUBLEPOST]

Zero Esc said:
Not all fascists are Nazis.

Some are just italians...

May 12, 2015#108

Bowielee

@Li3n said:
If Wanda and Pietro are gypsies then the High Evolutionary must have been using bleach as part of whatever gave them powers...[DOUBLEPOST=1431444691,1431444626][/DOUBLEPOST]

Some are just italians...

It's not like cultures or races ever intermingle. That's unheard of.

May 12, 2015#109

Frank

Well, Quicksilver's basically an albino.

And you can't blame comic artists for Scarlet Witch's schizophrenic appearance, they've been retconned more times than Bucky.

May 12, 2015#110

Covar

Frank said:
Well, Quicksilver's basically an albino.

And you can't blame comic artists for Scarlet Witch's schizophrenic appearance, they've been retconned more times than Bucky.

So twice?

May 12, 2015#111

Frank

Yes.

May 12, 2015#112

@Li3n

Bowielee said:
It's not like cultures or races ever intermingle.

Yeah, mixing brown and pink does not make more pink... and now that both their parents are supposed to be gypsies... yeah, racist High Evolutionary making them whiter = headcanon.

Also, Pietro is an italian name...

While apparently Wanda is polish...

Well, getting one right is close enough i guess.[DOUBLEPOST=1431451468,1431451277][/DOUBLEPOST]

Covar said:
S
So twice?

Actually, Bucky dying at the end of WW2 was a retcon in itself, so it's more like 3 times.

Which is actually true... Whizzer and Miss American as actual parents instead of Maximoffs, then retcon to Magneto, then retcon to whatever they are now.

May 12, 2015#113

Null

Again, in the movie, it's NEVER ONCE MENTIONED that they're Roma, so that's really not an issue.

May 12, 2015#114

CynicismKills

Null said:
Again, in the movie, it's NEVER ONCE MENTIONED that they're Roma, so that's really not an issue.

Yeah I think they're pulling that more from the comics. I would assume the movie's just painting them as some kind of Slavic.

May 12, 2015#115

Celt Z

I thought the movie just made them Sokovian orphans, thus some random pretend Eastern European origins. I mean, the MCU could definitely use some diversity (and it's getting better with War Machine and Falcon now being active Avengers), but if we're going to nitpick Wanda and Pietro, we should probably put the blame on their creators/early appearance. Comics don't have the best history of delicate with representation, some attempts being more ham-fisted than others. It was probably something along the lines of "Eh, they're from somewhere in Europe, so white. Whatever."

May 12, 2015#116

Hailey Knight

CynicismKills said:
Yeah I think they're pulling that more from the comics. I would assume the movie's just painting them as some kind of Slavic.

In this one instance, Tumblr gives a shit about comics canon, while they continue to write thousand-page fanfics about which teammate Steve Rogers will fuck tonight while he cheats on Bucky. :rolleyes:

May 12, 2015#117

Null

CynicismKills said:
Yeah I think they're pulling that more from the comics. I would assume the movie's just painting them as some kind of Slavic.

Yeah, Sokovian. Their parents were killed during civil strife (much like the former Yugoslavia) by weapons made by Stark Industries, leading them to have a vendetta against Tony Stark, and leading them to volunteer for Baron Strucker and Dr Listz's experiments. Note the less than cordial welcome the Iron Legion receives from the Sokovian populace: many of them probably lost people to black-marketed Stark weapons.

May 12, 2015#118

GasBandit

Null said:
Yeah, Sokovian. Their parents were killed during civil strife (much like the former Yugoslavia) by weapons made by Stark Industries, leading them to have a vendetta against Tony Stark, and leading them to volunteer for Baron Strucker and Dr Listz's experiments. Note the less than cordial welcome the Iron Legion receives from the Sokovian populace: many of them probably lost people to black-marketed Stark weapons.

Or just pre-Iron Man white market Stark weapons.

May 12, 2015#119

Null

GasBandit said:
Or just pre-Iron Man white market Stark weapons.

Yeah, that's possible. If he sold to the Sokovian government (or whatever the parent nation was) it could easily have wound up in the wrong hands during the fighting.

May 13, 2015#120

Bubble181

I, ehh...I haven't seen the movie yet, but err, I don't know how much experience you all have with Roma ("gypsies" is considered a racist term, folks), but they're not all that dark. In fact, there's several "sub-divisions" of Roma (Gitanos, Sinti, Kale,...). While some groups are much more tanned, most Roma you'll meet in Northern and Eastern Europe aren't any darker than, say, Italians. There's exceptions (and in Spain or former Yugoslavia they tend to be comparatively darker, for example)...but saying you can tell whether or not someone's Roma based on skin color is plain out wrong. I've seen naturally (well, she claimed she was, anyway) blond, fair Roma. Like with, say, Semitic people, there tend to be somewhat more subtle tells about ethnic background, but those can all be present or not from individual to individual. I looked up stills - yes, they're too fair-skinned (and him haired) for stereotypical Roma, but they're absolutely not impossible or anything.

May 13, 2015#121

Denbrought

Bubble181 said:
I, ehh...I haven't seen the movie yet, but err, I don't know how much experience you all have with Roma ("gypsies" is considered a racist term, folks), but they're not all that dark. In fact, there's several "sub-divisions" of Roma (Gitanos, Sinti, Kale,...). While some groups are much more tanned, most Roma you'll meet in Northern and Eastern Europe aren't any darker than, say, Italians. There's exceptions (and in Spain or former Yugoslavia they tend to be comparatively darker, for example)...but saying you can tell whether or not someone's Roma based on skin color is plain out wrong. I've seen naturally (well, she claimed she was, anyway) blond, fair Roma. Like with, say, Semitic people, there tend to be somewhat more subtle tells about ethnic background, but those can all be present or not from individual to individual. I looked up stills - yes, they're too fair-skinned (and him haired) for stereotypical Roma, but they're absolutely not impossible or anything.

If you don't caricature an ethnicity/culture enough, you're accused of erasure and/or whitewashing. If you caricature it too much, you're accused of exploitation and/or appropriation. Willkommen, Bienvenue, Welcome... im Tumblr, au Tumblr, to Tumblr...

I definitely didn't know that Roma were as ethnically varied as they are before stepping out of Spain (a good half of my neighbourhood was/is gitanos), but Roma are far from homogeneous.

May 13, 2015#122

Null

Bubble181 said:
I, ehh...I haven't seen the movie yet, but err, I don't know how much experience you all have with Roma ("gypsies" is considered a racist term, folks), but they're not all that dark. In fact, there's several "sub-divisions" of Roma (Gitanos, Sinti, Kale,...). While some groups are much more tanned, most Roma you'll meet in Northern and Eastern Europe aren't any darker than, say, Italians. There's exceptions (and in Spain or former Yugoslavia they tend to be comparatively darker, for example)...but saying you can tell whether or not someone's Roma based on skin color is plain out wrong. I've seen naturally (well, she claimed she was, anyway) blond, fair Roma. Like with, say, Semitic people, there tend to be somewhat more subtle tells about ethnic background, but those can all be present or not from individual to individual. I looked up stills - yes, they're too fair-skinned (and him haired) for stereotypical Roma, but they're absolutely not impossible or anything.

Which is all moot because the characters in question are never referred to as being Roma in the movie that we're discussing.

May 15, 2015#123

ScytheRexx

Finally got to see it, was a fun ride. Not disappointed.

I think the only thing that weirded me out was..

How much Ultron seemed to "care" for Wanda. Even after abandoning him, joining his enemies, etc, she comes over to his broken body to get revenge, and the only thing he says in a concerned voice is that if she stayed, she would die, like that was a bad thing to him.

May 15, 2015#124

CynicismKills

ScytheRexx said:
Finally got to see it, was a fun ride. Not disappointed.

I think the only thing that weirded me out was..

How much Ultron seemed to "care" for Wanda. Even after abandoning him, joining his enemies, etc, she comes over to his broken body to get revenge, and the only thing he says in a concerned voice is that if she stayed, she would die, like that was a bad thing to him.

Well comic Ultron always had a weird fixation on The Wasp thanks to Pym's data in his head, so changing the focus of Ultron's affection isn't so strange since Pym isn't the creator this time.

May 16, 2015#125

@Li3n

Bubble181 said:
Roma you'll meet in Northern and Eastern Europe aren't any darker than, say, Italians.

Heh, Mediterranean people being darker skinned... it's called a tan. (but of course a lot of greeks have turkish blood etc)

Also, i don't know about Northern Europe, but if you think Eastern Europe Roma are mostly light skinned i'm gonna have to laugh at you... sure, they're not as dark as Indians, but that's because it's unlikely any of them don't have european ancestry too.

If the twins do have gypsy ancestry, it's not recent.

Bubble181 said:
(and him haired)

Quicksilver's hair gets a pass, it's always been considered altered by his mutation/whatever-got-him-powers-now.

May 20, 2015#126

GasBandit

May 20, 2015#127

Celt Z

May 20, 2015#128

PatrThom

GasBandit said:

Wouldn't it be made of stone?

EDIT: For @figmentPez and others: What's Quicksilver's real name?

--Patrick

May 20, 2015#129

CynicismKills

Pietro Maximov, though the surname might be different now that they're not Magneto's kids anymore.

May 20, 2015#130

figmentPez

PatrThom said:
EDIT: For @figmentPez and others: What's Quicksilver's real name?

If I could rate this as both "I need this explained to me" and "Pun" I would.

May 20, 2015#131

GasBandit

CynicismKills said:
Pietro Maximov, though the surname might be different now that they're not Magneto's kids anymore.

He's making a pun in that Pietro sounds like petra, latin for stone or rock.

May 20, 2015#132

PatrThom

GasBandit said:
He's making a pun in that Pietro sounds like petra, latin for stone or rock.

Pietro, Petra, Peter, Pedro, it's all the same foundation. Matthew 16:18, and all that.

--Patrick

May 20, 2015#133

CynicismKills

GasBandit said:
He's making a pun in that Pietro sounds like petra, latin for stone or rock.

Dead languages shouldn't count as puns.

May 20, 2015#134

Null

Gotta admit, when Black Widow says, "I adore you... but I need The Other Guy right now," I immediately thought of *that* gif.

May 20, 2015#135

GasBandit

Null said:
Gotta admit, when Black Widow says, "I adore you... but I need The Other Guy right now," I immediately thought of *that* gif.

Heh, that movie damn near made "that gif" canon

May 20, 2015#136

Null

GasBandit said:
Heh, that movie damn near made "that gif" canon

Guess they're saving that for Infinity War. :ninja:

May 20, 2015#137

GasBandit

Null said:
Guess they're saving that for Infinity War.

I think Zero and Nick want us to post *that* gif.

May 20, 2015#138

PatrThom

Hey, I admit it took me a sec, but I figured it out.
"'That' .GIF? Oh, that .GIF!'"

--Patrick

May 20, 2015#139

Ravenpoe

GasBandit said:
Heh, that movie damn near made "that gif" canon

Are you guys playing hide the zucchini?

May 20, 2015#140

GasBandit

Ravenpoe said:
Are you guys playing hide the zucchini?

More like "pulverize the clam."

May 20, 2015#141

Hailey Knight

GasBandit said:
I think Zero and Nick want us to post *that* gif.

I hope we won't regret it.

May 20, 2015#142

GasBandit

You guys have probably seen it. You might just not have seen it EVERYWHERE FOR THE LAST YEAR like some of us who prowl image boards.

So, @ThatNickGuy and @Zero Esc , here's *that* gif, again, in all its NSFW glory:

May 20, 2015#143

Hailey Knight

You are correct, I have a feeling I've seen that before.

Curiosity sated.

May 20, 2015#144

ThatNickGuy

I...had not seen it before. :Leyla:

May 20, 2015#145

PatrThom

ThatNickGuy said:
I...had not seen it before.

And now you can't unsee it.

--Patrick

May 21, 2015#146

Null

It's pulverizing the clam, with the zucchini.

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