Bow Before Victoria Von Doom!

Sorry, but you're wrong? Casting more women in big budget movies is literally fixing the gender disparity in Hollywood. I don't know how you don't understand that.
My point is, the gender disparity in all of Hollywood won't be fixed just by taking what has been a iconic male villain from a comic book genre and casting him as a female in one movie. Great work could be done if the suits involved would actually develop a blockbuster superhero film with a female lead ala Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel, or even the Birds of Prey (that would have three women). That might have a chance to begin to change the way people think and put more movies like it into production. If they go down this road it will be more of the same for years to come when the movie fails to make enough money and the suits can point to it and say, "see what happens if you put a woman in that role."

If you think the producers making this film are thinking about gender disparity then why not also go ahead and hire a black actress to be Sue Storm to Jordan's Johnny Storm, that would make sense as they are, traditionally, brother and sister. And what a great stride for disparity, we would not only get a woman but a black woman in the lead female role of the Fantastic Four. They probably thought, they'd have to deal with some backlash from those against interracial couples (Sue and Reed) so lets just make Dr Doom a woman, cause that will piss less people off and really only the comic fans and once they're gone we can make whatever changes we want.

I'll skip it.
 
I just realized something else.

Assuming they go with Doom's original origin (and at this point, I doubt it), remember why Doom wears the iron mask? Because his face was horribly disfigured. Many writers have assumed that it wasn't horribly disfigured, but that it was a minor scar. But to the perfect ego of Victor Von Doom, this was a huge deal.

Now, imagine that, but in a woman's role. Suddenly, it becomes a HUGE writing cliche of a woman obsessed with her looks. Add on what I would assume (because Hollywood) that the reason she turns even is because Reed turned her down or something, and you have a horribly cliched and sexist character who is obsessed with her looks and is only defined by a man.
 
Isn't it silly when people make assumptions about characterization based on 50-so-odd years of characterization?
I know! Victoria Von Doom, tragically scarred victim of a car bomb in war-torn Latveria and scorned by her family, rises from semi-obscurity to rule the kingdom with an iron fist (no, really...it's at the end of her cybernetic arm). She may be a tyrant, but she has a heart of gold, defending her kingdom with a mother's love against the tyranny of foreigners, especially her arch-enemies, the Spectacular Six, the leader of whom is married to her ex-lesbian lover, Tammy Tempest. Ooo, she hates that bitch SO much.

--Patrick
 
Honestly, I haven't yet read one good reason why it matters what gender Dr. Doom is. People are too attached to things that don't matter. Let go a little. There are alternate takes on all kinds of things, from Shakespeare to Batman. The original always remains intact and sometimes having Superman land in the USSR or Dr. Doom being a woman or The Human Torch being black (gasp!) makes for a great story. It's a movie. It's alright.
 
Honestly, I haven't yet read one good reason why it matters what gender Dr. Doom is. People are too attached to things that don't matter. Let go a little. There are alternate takes on all kinds of things, from Shakespeare to Batman. The original always remains intact and sometimes having Superman land in the USSR or Dr. Doom being a woman or The Human Torch being black (gasp!) makes for a great story. It's a movie. It's alright.
That's okay, I haven't heard one good reason for gender bending Doom but it's moot anyway as FOX will do whatever they want with the license.
 
Casting Human Torch as a black kid is just the absolute laziest thing I've ever heard. Picking the brother of the siblings of the group really highlights the fact that they only want to put the bare minimum amount of effort into diversifying the cast.

You can pretty much assume their thought process was along this line:
  • Mr. Fantastic is arguably the best choice, but then you have the problem of an African American male lead. Who's supposed to be a super smart doctor no less. No one will buy that, and we can't have an interracial relationship, especially not a black man and a white woman.
  • The Thing could be black! No wait he'll spend pretty much the entire movie as a Rock Monster, we won't get any credit for that. We might even get criticized.
  • The Invisible Woman is already a female, so we shouldn't double up.
  • The only one left is Human Torch. Ok that sounds good to me. Wait, aren't the Human Torch and the Invisible Woman siblings? Yea but we'll just say one of them's adopted here, and anyone upset by this is just a big ole racist.
So yeah it's the Human Torch by process of elimination.

I think @ThatNickGuy did a great job explaining just why a female Doom would not be well received (unfair as it may be), unless of course you completely remove all the vain and arrogant characteristics from the character which raises the question of why bother at all since all you'll be left with for an antagonist is a Rule 63 Doctor Doom cosplayer.
 
No one said it would be well received. If there's one thing comic fans are known for is being irrationally pissy when things aren't exactly how they prefer them to be.
 
No one said it would be well received. If there's one thing comic fans are known for is being irrationally pissy when things aren't exactly how they prefer them to be.
I should clarify a little better. It wouldn't be well received because it would come across as an incredibly sexist portrayal of a woman, even though it would just be Doctor Doom in a woman's body.
 
No one said it would be well received. If there's one thing comic fans are known for is being irrationally pissy when things aren't exactly how they prefer them to be.
I've said before that the gender-bending is NOT the issue. The issue is that I don't have faith in Hollywood not to write the character horribly cliched, as a broken hearted woman bent on revenge with vanity issues.
 
I guess we will see. It probably won't be good, but my guess is it will have nothing to do with a gender bendsd doom.
 
If they go down this road it will be more of the same for years to come when the movie fails to make enough money and the suits can point to it and say, "see what happens if you put a woman in that role."
See Catwoman / Elektra "proving" that 'comic book movies with female leads don't make any money' as opposed to 'terrible comic book movies don't make any money'.
 
Actually there was a Catwoman movie starring Halle Berry and Sharon Stone and Benjamin Bratt. It came out a few years ago and was really poorly received.

Also, Elektra had a movie starring TV star Jennifer Garner as a spinoff of her character in the Daredevil movie starring Ben Affleck. It wasn't very successful.
 
Actually there was a Catwoman movie starring Halle Berry and Sharon Stone and Benjamin Bratt. It came out a few years ago and was really poorly received.

Also, Elektra had a movie starring TV star Jennifer Garner as a spinoff of her character in the Daredevil movie starring Ben Affleck. It wasn't very successful.
You tell the most hilarious lies, Charlie.
 
Wow, someone even went to lengths as to photoshop Garner into a mock poster. The lengths some people will go, I swear.

 
Honestly, I haven't yet read one good reason why it matters what gender Dr. Doom is. People are too attached to things that don't matter. Let go a little. There are alternate takes on all kinds of things, from Shakespeare to Batman. The original always remains intact and sometimes having Superman land in the USSR or Dr. Doom being a woman or The Human Torch being black (gasp!) makes for a great story. It's a movie. It's alright.
I remember there being shit flown when they turned Starbuck from BSG from a man into a woman. Seemed to work out alright.
 
Female Dr. Doom could only be a step up from the last two garbage portrayals of the character.

Sent from my KFSOWI using Tapatalk
 
Female Dr. Doom could only be a step up from the last two garbage portrayals of the character.

Sent from my KFSOWI using Tapatalk
Thats what I'm saying, I mean what do we have to lose? It's honestly isn't going to be worse. And if it sucks just wait 5 years for the reboot.
 

figmentPez

Staff member
Thats what I'm saying, I mean what do we have to lose? It's honestly isn't going to be worse. And if it sucks just wait 5 years for the reboot.
I guess what we have to lose depends on how much importance studio executives are putting on this. Are they just looking at it as a Fantastic Four film, or would they look at it as a comic book movie with a female in a lead role? If it's the latter, and they blame it's tanking on putting a woman in the role, then that could jeopardize other potential projects. Sure, the Fantastic Four will get a reboot, eventually, but what about a female Captain Marvel, or a Gen X reboot focusing on the female characters?
 
Nah, they are looking at it only as a way to hold on the rights and maybe make some bucks. The Fantastic Four film won't be the thing to make or break women in leading roles.
 
Oh god. :facepalm:

Her new origin will be that she secretly wanted to bone Reed all this time. Or that Reed rejected her in favour of Sue. You just watch. It'll be a fucking love triangle.
They still don't need to make him a woman just for that. I mean Doom is pretty much stalking him already .
 
The thing is, when you're changing characters from 50 or so years ago's gender, you're changing (comic book) "history".
Is there any real reason why Doom couldn't be a woman? Or Torch black? Well, no, not really (though I do agree with Nick's point - Doom's story when made into a woman seems horribly cliché right away). The only reason they're (mostly white) (mostly male) is because of the power structure as it was at the time of conception. The only thing you're "hurting" or "changing" is established lore, people's perception of a character,...
The same can sometimes be seen in historical movies and series. Modern takes on things happening in medieval times, the Far West, Roman times, etc etc, have been shoehorning in female characters left and right - we happen to have a patriarchal history, so most "historically important" stuff happened by men - and since history was recorded by men, too, well, we don't always know much about the women. Still, it's a fairly accepted historical fact that the number of female knights in the Crusades can be counted on one hand. Literally - over all the crusades together. Yet every movie made after, say, 1995, will happen to have at least one warmaiden or amazon-like female fighter to break up the sausage fest. During Roman times, women were the masters of the house...But had no power at all outside or in political affairs. Go watch Rome, or Spartacus, and you'll see plenty fairly strong female characters. Most of them are exaggerated versions of characters who really lived and were female, though.
Is "male" an integral port of the personality/character of, say, Emperor Nero? Or Abraham Lincoln? Strictly historically, yes - neither of them could have held the position they did if they were female, not because they'd be weaker but because of the society they lived in. Is making Batman female any better or worse?
I dunno. Yes, one's "real" history and one is fictional history - but in both cases you're, at most, making an "adaptation of" or "based on" story. How many people would freak out over a movie where General Patton's suddenly a woman? Hitler?

Anyway, my point, because once again I've somehow lost my train of thought: while gender, and skin color, and sexual orientation, and a lot of other such variables, aren't necessarily "core" to a character², changing them in opposition to established lore/knowledge/background without a good reason other than "we want more gender X/race X/orientation X/... in our movie" is an ugly, hacky way of dealing with these issues. More modern IPs and characters tend to be more diverse, and there's no reason why "older" characters couldn't meet/fight/... newly written characters - especially in superhero movies, where the opponents tend to change fairly often anyway.


²For some characters, these are essential and core to their character. Making a movie about MLK or Shaft or Malcolm X and making them white or hispanic would be quite weird :p
 
The thing is, when you're changing characters from 50 or so years ago's gender, you're changing (comic book) "history".
Is there any real reason why Doom couldn't be a woman? Or Torch black? Well, no, not really ...
I want to point out that if you were to make Johnny Storm black without making Sue Storm black you're doing a bit of a disservice to the Invisible Woman. Their mother passed early in their lives, and their father was drunk or in prison for most of their formative years, which led to Susan being Johnny's primary mother figure. It's the biggest source of the characters strength and is why Johnny winds up on the rocket. It's a brilliantly simple plot point.
 
I want to point out that if you were to make Johnny Storm black without making Sue Storm black you're doing a bit of a disservice to the Invisible Woman. Their mother passed early in their lives, and their father was drunk or in prison for most of their formative years, which led to Susan being Johnny's primary mother figure. It's the biggest source of the characters strength and is why Johnny winds up on the rocket. It's a brilliantly simple plot point.
They were in the same foster family

BOOM I'M A GENIUS
 
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