Cosplay Subforum Rules

[Tress]

You're a nice guy, but when it comes to cosplayers I think you're overprotective and overzealous in the application of your mod authority. It comes off as a big "Because I said so!" I think your eagerness to be the brave protector of female cosplayers is also a bit sexist. You seem to put female cosplayers on a pedestal. It feels as though acknowledging the fact that some women are attractive is a deal breaker to you.

I think if people actually act as creeps to cosplayers, you have every right to come down hard on them. I just think you should wait until someone actually breaks the rules or a cosplayer complains about their treatment.

 

[Hailey Knight]

You're a nice guy, but when it comes to cosplayers I think you're overprotective and overzealous in the application of your mod authority. It comes off as a big "Because I said so!" I think your eagerness to be the brave protector of female cosplayers is also a bit sexist. You seem to put female cosplayers on a pedestal. It feels as though acknowledging the fact that some women are attractive is a deal breaker to you.

I think if people actually act as creeps to cosplayers, you have every right to come down hard on them. I just think you should wait until someone actually breaks the rules or a cosplayer complains about their treatment.

Much as I agree with your sentiment and consider Fig's attitude to be a bit offensive in its own way, it's been gone through in more threads than just this one and it's not going to change. He said rule discussion should go on in this thread, but it's pretty much just "keep your complaints here where I don't have to look at them", because he's not going to change his approach. His view is that this is how he's doing it and anyone who doesn't like it can go to hell. Ser Playhouse Pez the Valiant will be on watch to defend a cosplayer's choice of cos, and how s/he plays it, whether asked for or not.

 

[Tress]

Much as I agree with your sentiment and consider Fig's attitude to be a bit offensive in its own way, it's been gone through in more threads than just this one and it's not going to change. He said rule discussion should go on in this thread, but it's pretty much just "keep your complaints here where I don't have to look at them", because he's not going to change his approach. His view is that this is how he's doing it and anyone who doesn't like it can go to hell. Ser Playhouse Pez the Valiant will be on watch to defend a cosplayer's choice of cos, and how s/he plays it, whether asked for or not.

... and that's his prerogative, I suppose. I just felt it needed to be said in no unclear terms.

 

[Bones]

I'm adding a rule.
- Complaining in the cosplay sub-forum about the rules or moderation is banned outside of this thread. If you don't like the rules, talk about it here or shut up and leave. Being passive-agressive by whining "I can't post what I really want to say" is bullshit and I'm not going to take it.

what just happened, that makes you say that now of all times? its been what I thought was pretty quiet as of late....

 

[Tress]

what just happened, that makes you say that now of all times? its been what I thought was pretty quiet as of late....

Kags talked about doing a Bayonetta cosplay but didn't have the guns for it. Jay commented on how guns weren't the thing that people remember about the character. Pez took that as him creeping on Kags and vowed to stop it, as he believes Jay doesn't it all the time in other threads. Null questioned whether or not that should count as creepy, and Chad Sexington questioned Pez's response altogether. Pez responded in the thread, then came here and added the new rule.

 

[Hailey Knight]

what just happened, that makes you say that now of all times? its been what I thought was pretty quiet as of late....

I find that hilarious since that was pretty much my reaction when the subforum was made. I think it was a Jay comment then that set off the casks of offended gunpowder in his head. At least that comment I could see being an issue, even though the reaction quickly became an overreaction.

In this case, Jay made a comment in Kagsin's thread implying that people probably pay more attention to Bayonetta's sexualized physique than her weapons.

Bayonetta was quite offended.

 

[figmentPez]

Do you guys seriously think my agenda is "protecting cosplayers", because that's not the case. As I've said before, this is is about the reputation of geek guys; avoiding hurt feelings for cosplaying girls is of secondary importance. I'm really sick of being stereotyped as a drooling lech simply because I identify myself as a geek guy, and I'm tired of hearing cosplayers complain that no one ever objects to them being sexually objectified. I want geek guys to have a better reputation, so I'm not going to sit and be part of the silent portion of geek guys who don't like it any more than the geek girls do. I'm not sorry I come across as heavy-handed, because you only think I'm over-reacting because I'm reacting at all; speaking out on this issue is so out of the norm it seems unreasonable to do so at all.

I gave Jay a nudge because he has a history of creeping on Kags and other cosplayers. He's openly said that he'd do it again, and only backed down in the cosplay thread when I got mod powers. I preemptively reminded him that this sub-forum has different rules, in case he'd forgotten. Which obviously some people had or they wouldn't have been shocked that I said so. I don't intend to allow anyone to test my patience and see how much they can get away with. If someone besides Jay had made the same comment, I wouldn't have said a thing. However, since it was Jay I decided to head things off at the pass.

There are a lot of cosplayers who don't like sexualized comments to be made about them. They talk about this on Tumblr, Twitter, Facebook and elsewhere, for anyone to see if you care to follow them. Some of the cosplayers who also vlog on Youtube routinely take down old videos when they start to attract only sexual comments. They don't want to hear it, and if they can't control the comments, they shut it out entirely. I don't want my name attached to a place where only the thick-skinned cosplayers feel welcome. I don't want my name attached to a thread full of the objectification of women, although I realize that's been the case for a while, and I'm mad at myself for not doing anything sooner.

The objectification of women (or men) is unacceptable. A lot of abusive talk has gone on in these threads, and I just let it slide because I didn't think I could do anything about it, and I knew trying would cause drama. Well, I don't care anymore that I won't be able to avoid drama, and I'm going to try even if I fail spectacularly and ruin my reputation doing so. I started the cosplay thread because I was bored and enjoyed sharing the photos I found. The more I got to know cosplayers, and the more lewd comments were made, the less I enjoyed sharing. I don't enjoy putting my foot down very much at all, but it's something I feel I must do to adhere to my own moral and ethical standards.

Also, allegations of being sexist? NO. If and when I actually have a different standard for men than I do for women, then you can accuse me of sexism. It just happens that it's far rarer for male cosplayers to be treated like pieces of meat than it is for women cosplayers to be treated that way. Should I fail to respond when a lewd post is made about a male cosplayer, then you can call me out for sexism. Until then it's only your prejudice saying that I only care about the treatment of female cosplayers. If you think I'm going to bow down to pressure because you've called me names? I won't.

 

[figmentPez]

So, just what do you find funny about that post, Quotemander? I'm curious.

 

[Chad Sexington]

Pez, I feel like your position comes from a good place, but is flawed.

Do you guys seriously think my agenda is "protecting cosplayers", because that's not the case. As I've said before, this is is about the reputation of geek guys; avoiding hurt feelings for cosplaying girls is of secondary importance. I'm really sick of being stereotyped as a drooling lech simply because I identify myself as a geek guy

As a fellow geek and a fellow guy, I really have to say, I don't feel stereotyped as a lech. I sometimes think your sensitivity to this issue is based off a stereotype you perversely cast on geekdom. Not to say you think geeks are creepy stalking types, but that you stereotype other people as stereotyping us this way. If that roundaboutness makes sense. Sure, those jokes abound, and maybe everyone knows someone who fits that. But it isn't pervasive.

I'm tired of hearing cosplayers complain that no one ever objects to them being sexually objectified. I want geek guys to have a better reputation, so I'm not going to sit and be part of the silent portion of geek guys who don't like it any more than the geek girls do. I'm not sorry I come across as heavy-handed, because you only think I'm over-reacting because I'm reacting at all; speaking out on this issue is so out of the norm it seems unreasonable to do so at all.

I don't really get this. Speaking out against women being objectified isn't unreasonable. No one here has ever said it is. Again, as a geek guy who is also opposed to women being treated like objects, I don't think I'm silent on the issue.

I gave Jay a nudge because he has a history of creeping on Kags and other cosplayers. He's openly said that he'd do it again, and only backed down in the cosplay thread when I got mod powers. I preemptively reminded him that this sub-forum has different rules, in case he'd forgotten. Which obviously some people had or they wouldn't have been shocked that I said so. I don't intend to allow anyone to test my patience and see how much they can get away with. If someone besides Jay had made the same comment, I wouldn't have said a thing. However, since it was Jay I decided to head things off at the pass.

I hate this whole thing because it sounds like you dislike Jay specifically and specifically have it out for him, which is unfair. While past behaviour may indicate a person's future actions, this isn't the kind of thing where you need to be constantly warding him off.

There are a lot of cosplayers who don't like sexualized comments to be made about them. They talk about this on Tumblr, Twitter, Facebook and elsewhere, for anyone to see if you care to follow them. Some of the cosplayers who also vlog on Youtube routinely take down old videos when they start to attract only sexual comments. They don't want to hear it, and if they can't control the comments, they shut it out entirely. I don't want my name attached to a place where only the thick-skinned cosplayers feel welcome. I don't want my name attached to a thread full of the objectification of women, although I realize that's been the case for a while, and I'm mad at myself for not doing anything sooner.

I have no idea bout the accuracy of the claim that the thread in question is 'full of the objectification of women,' but again, I feel that's the sort of thing commonly frowned on, and your defensiveness in such a circumstance would be appropriate.

Also, allegations of being sexist? NO. If and when I actually have a different standard for men than I do for women, then you can accuse me of sexism. It just happens that it's far rarer for male cosplayers to be treated like pieces of meat than it is for women cosplayers to be treated that way. Should I fail to respond when a lewd post is made about a male cosplayer, then you can call me out for sexism. Until then it's only your prejudice saying that I only care about the treatment of female cosplayers. If you think I'm going to bow down to pressure because you've called me names? I won't.

Has anyone called you sexist or other names? We just questioned whether or not you were being too quick on the defense for perceived sleights. Curiously, saying we're accusing you of sexism or calling you names when we didn't seems.... overdefensive.

 

[Tress]

I disagree with the premise that you need to preemptively come down on people because somewhere, on a completely different part of the internet, people have been rude to cosplayers. I think your rules don't allow any acknowledgment of some characters being sexualized from the start, such as Bayonetta. I don't believe for one minute your treatment of female cosplayers is the exact same way you would interact with male ones.

And I'm sorry you obviously took personal offense to what I said. But I won't apologize for speaking my mind in this case. If you don't like it, you may as well ban me now. I have a right to speak my mind about how this forum is handled. Get over yourself.

 

[figmentPez]

I think your eagerness to be the brave protector of female cosplayers is also a bit sexist.

 

[figmentPez]

I disagree with the premise that you need to preemptively come down on people.

I didn't come down on anyone. I reminded Jay of the rules, that's all.

 

[Tress]

I didn't come down on anyone. I reminded Jay of the rules, that's all.

When you immediately follow Jay's post with "no creeping on the cosplayers" that's you coming down on him. That's you projecting yourself as a moderator who will do something negative to Jay if he continues to post something like that. And in my opinion it was just because he pointed out how sexualized the character of Bayonetta was, rather than say something inappropriate to Kags.

I guess my issue is not the rules, but your application of the rules. I feel your definition of abuse is too broad, and it has a chilling effect.

 

[tegid]

If I may intervene: Pez, maybe you were doing something innocent and purely preemptive, but as you can see it came across as oversensitive and agressive. Please realize that your actual intentions are relevant and it's important that we all understand them, but you also need to find better ways to enforce the rules or do whatever you feel you need to do or you willkeep absurdly spending time with confrontations such as this one. For instance, if this ever happens again, maybe a PM remainder would be better, or just making it clear that you are not accusing of rulebreaking, or even waiting until the actual rulebreaking happens and then using your mod powers to edit the post or whatever.

 

[Null]

Actually, I asked if anyone had been creepy not because I didn't consider Jay's post to be creepy, but because I usually don't see Jay's posts. Upon looking at his comment... it's not that creepy. I'd have to say that Bayonetta's catsuit and hairdo are more instantly recognizable than her armament, and even if that's not what he meant, let's face it, Bayonetta is a very fanservice filled game. Does that make it okay to creep on the cosplayer? No. Does it make it okay to point out that it the character is considered a sex symbol? I'd have to say yes.

 

[PatrThom]

I like to think anyone who goes to a convention dressed as Bayonetta would know what she's getting herself into. It's one thing to make inappropriately sexual comments about someone dressed as, say, Daphne, or Yorda, or even Poison Ivy. To me, making "inappropriate" comments about a Bayonetta cosplay would only serve to validate the degree of authenticity of the costly cosplay. Making comments about the woman inside the costume should still be off-limits, though.

I would hope the majority of adults would be able to see the distinction, but of course I know that is not always the case.

--Patrick
(EDIT: Corrected incorrectly corrected autocorrect)

 

[figmentPez]

The problem with that is where do you draw the line on characters? Why is Poison Ivy, a character known for using her sexuality to seduce and manipulate men, different from Bayonetta? How do you codify that to make it not seem arbitrary when moderating? (EDIT: Furthermore, how do you differentiate between a comment directed at the character and a comment directed at the cosplayer? A lot of cosplayers feel like they are the character they're cosplaying, and are going to feel like any harassment aimed at the costume is actually aimed at them.)

I know I've been overreacting and acting like a jackass, but I'm not sure what I'm going to do about that because several of the objections miss the point entirely. I've already covered sexism, bu there's also:

"Just let the cosplayers object if they feel they've been mistreated." If that were the case then any moderation that happened would tell everyone that the cosplayer "tattled" and many people feel uncomfortable having to do that. I don't want cosplayers to feel like they have to be the one speaking up when something is wrong. On another forum I visited, I can't count the number of times I got PMs telling me "that person was making me feel so uncomfortable, but I didn't want to be the one to say something because everyone else was just going with it." There is a silent majority who have a hard time standing up and saying something because they're afraid of the retaliation.

Which leads back to "Just do all the moderation privately". Admittedly I should have PMed Jay with a warning, and waited until there was an actual violation to say something publicly, bu there's no way that leaving all moderation private solves the basic problem of the public impression that no one objects to cat-calls directed at cosplayers. The silent majority wants to know that someone is objecting to the bad behavior they see; that they're not alone and they don't have to single themselves out by speaking up.