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Fidel Castro

Nov 25, 2016#1

DarkAudit

Dead at 90.

"Finally," if you're a 60s era cold warrior. Try as they might, the CIA just couldn't manage to take him out.

Nov 25, 2016#2

Bubble181

End of an era. Though it has been coming for a while.

Nov 26, 2016#3

PatrThom

A very very long while. They were predicting his death back in the 90's.
I wonder if he ever got his Stroh's Light?

(still don't know if that's actually George Carlin doing the VO)

--Patrick

Nov 26, 2016#4

blotsfan

And nothing of value was lost.

Nov 26, 2016#5

Bubble181

blotsfan said:
And nothing of value was lost.

A man whose influence on the international politics of the 20th century can hardly be overstated, leader of what probably has to be called the most successful communist country ever (admittedly, this isn't saying much), one of the most influential anti-imperialists - a movement that was weak in the '90s but is having a revival right now,.....

I'm not a fan, and he's done plenty of crap, but "nothing of value" is a bit harsh, no?

Nov 26, 2016#6

PatrThom

Bubble181 said:
I'm not a fan, and he's done plenty of crap, but "nothing of value" is a bit harsh, no?

He became something different than what he was.
So it goes.

--Patrick

Nov 26, 2016#7

Frank

2016, accomplishing what the CIA never could.

Nov 26, 2016#8

jwhouk

Thanks, Obama!

Nov 26, 2016#9

Bubble181

jwhouk said:
Thanks, Obama!

Hey, Bin Laden AND Castro dead in one term. Right wing hawks ought to love him!

Nov 26, 2016#10

Hailey Knight

Bubble181 said:
Hey, Bin Laden AND Castro dead in one term. Right wing hawks ought to love him!

Bin Laden was during Obama's first term though

Nov 26, 2016#11

blotsfan

When people have been waiting for awhile.

Nov 26, 2016#12

mikerc

*Sees a new Brazleton thread* Nooo, damn it 2016! Why do you keep doing thi...oh. Wait. Him? Castro? I retract my damning of 2016 on this occasion.

Nov 26, 2016#13

Dei

Bubble181 said:
A man whose influence on the international politics of the 20th century can hardly be overstated, leader of what probably has to be called the most successful communist country ever (admittedly, this isn't saying much), one of the most influential anti-imperialists - a movement that was weak in the '90s but is having a revival right now,.....

I'm not a fan, and he's done plenty of crap, but "nothing of value" is a bit harsh, no?

Here, allow me to show you how our president-elect feels about it.

Such tact, much wow.

Nov 26, 2016#14

PatrThom

Dei said:
Such tact, much wow.

It occurs to me that Donald's hairstyle would lend itself to being mashed up with the doge face. Dogeld Trump?

--Patrick

Nov 26, 2016#15

strawman

Anyone tempted to say any good thing about this brutal dictator should carefully read this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Cuba

Nov 26, 2016#16

Dave

I thought the right loved a "strong leader" regardless of how brutal and totalitarian his tactics are. I mean, Putin is their new best buddy.

Nov 26, 2016#17

Bubble181

Dave said:
I thought the right loved a "strong leader" regardless of how brutal and totalitarian his tactics are. I mean, Putin is their new best buddy.

Only when it's *their* leader.

This isn't the Political subforum and I don't necessarily want to derail a Brazelton, but...Yeah. Like I said, not a big fan - but compared to a whole lot of other leaders the West doesn't or didn't have a problem with, Castro was relatively benign. With the emphasis strongly on "relatively", to be sure.

Nov 26, 2016#18

Tress

Dave said:
I thought the right loved a "strong leader" regardless of how brutal and totalitarian his tactics are. I mean, Putin is their new best buddy.

Being a Communist disqualifies anyone from praise on the right. Also, his brutality and human rights violations are bad enough for anyone.

I don't think I've ever heard an intelligent person actually praise Castro. I thought he was universally condemned (in the US, anyway). Aside from stupid wannabe "rebels" in college, of course.

Nov 26, 2016#19

Dave

Oh, he was a shitty human being. I was just pokin' some fun on a Saturday morning.

Nov 26, 2016#20

Eriol

Interesting reactions out of Canada: Fidel Castro dies. Justin Trudeau issues statement. Much hilarity ensues. #TrudeauEulogies
This below is from our illustrious PM:

“It is with deep sorrow that I learned today of the death of Cuba’s longest serving President.
“Fidel Castro was a larger than life leader who served his people for almost half a century. A legendary revolutionary and orator, Mr. Castro made significant improvements to the education and healthcare of his island nation.
“While a controversial figure, both Mr. Castro’s supporters and detractors recognized his tremendous dedication and love for the Cuban people who had a deep and lasting affection for “el Comandante”.
“I know my father was very proud to call him a friend and I had the opportunity to meet Fidel when my father passed away. It was also a real honour to meet his three sons and his brother President Raúl Castro during my recent visit to Cuba.
“On behalf of all Canadians, Sophie and I offer our deepest condolences to the family, friends and many, many supporters of Mr. Castro. We join the people of Cuba today in mourning the loss of this remarkable leader.”

I has inspired "parodies"

Though not universally liked by his compatriots, Mr. Ceausescu was a leader in urban design and affordable housing' #trudeaueulogies
— Cam Vidler (@camvidler) November 26, 2016

“While a controversial figure, even detractors recognize Pol Pot encouraged renewed contact between city and countryside.” #trudeaueulogies
— Andrew Coyne (@acoyne) November 26, 2016

“While a controversial figure, General Tojo brought America into World War II and ultimately helped shorten the war.” #trudeaueulogies
— Andrew Coyne (@acoyne) November 26, 2016

#trudeaueulogies “Today we say goodbye to Mr. Mussolini, the former Italian prime minister best known for his competent train-management.”
— J.J. McCullough (@JJ_McCullough) November 26, 2016

#trudeaueulogies "While Emperor Nero was controversial, his dedication to song and writing poetry signaled a Roman artistic renaissance." https://t.co/67oGEgZgDi
— Jason Hickman (@jasonhickman) November 26, 2016

Let's just say not everybody in Canada agrees with our Prime Minister (me included).

In other news, dancing in the streets in Little Havana (aka Miami) - 'This is like a carnival'; Cuban exiles in Miami celebrate Fidel Castro's death

Nov 26, 2016#21

Dave

Hopefully Fidel's brother is more open, which I think he's already proven. I think if we work with Cuba like Obama has wanted to do that we can do a lot to help its people.

Nov 26, 2016#22

strawman

Eriol said:
Let's just say not everybody in Canada agrees with our Prime Minister (me included).

Oh, it's too late for that, he already said, "On behalf of all Canadians" so you're on the line now.

Nov 26, 2016#23

Eriol

stienman said:
Oh, it's too late for that, he already said, "On behalf of all Canadians" so you're on the line now.

Be careful. Under that standard, if Trump uses "On behalf of all Americans..." you (and many others here) will be on a similar hook![DOUBLEPOST=1480190962,1480190820][/DOUBLEPOST]

Dave said:
Hopefully Fidel's brother is more open, which I think he's already proven. I think if we work with Cuba like Obama has wanted to do that we can do a lot to help its people.

I think that's crap. Just look at China. Increased standard of living perhaps (though along with CHOKING levels of pollution), but also more brutal repression, Tibet will be China's FOREVER now due to shipping in of people (they outnumber native Tibetans now, similar to the Russia/Crimea situation, and eastern Ukraine), and increased freedom? How's that working out for the people of China?

Basically: I wouldn't bet on it.

Nov 26, 2016#24

Dave

Won't know until we try, though will we? I mean, the stuff we've been trying hasn't helped at all. Maybe it's time to try something different.

Nov 26, 2016#25

blotsfan

Eriol said:
In other news, dancing in the streets in Little Havana (aka Miami) - 'This is like a carnival'; Cuban exiles in Miami celebrate Fidel Castro's death

I have a friend who lives in Miami. He is in town this week for thanksgiving. He was not thrilled at the timing.

Nov 26, 2016#26

Eriol

Dave said:
Won't know until we try, though will we? I mean, the stuff we've been trying hasn't helped at all. Maybe it's time to try something different.

Sure it hasn't Dave, but that doesn't mean "Well, what we've been doing hasn't worked, so let's try something we know doesn't work next!" That makes even less sense IMO.

Nov 26, 2016#27

strawman

Regularizing relationships with communist countries has been a democrat platform plank for many decades now.

Nov 26, 2016#28

strawman

Nov 26, 2016#29

sixpackshaker

stienman said:
Regularizing relationships with communist countries has been a democrat platform plank for many decades now.

wut?

Besides opening up Vietnam, the rest have been under the GOP watch.

Nov 26, 2016#30

Krisken

Dave said:
Hopefully Fidel's brother is more open, which I think he's already proven. I think if we work with Cuba like Obama has wanted to do that we can do a lot to help its people.

Wait, who do you think is going to work with him?!?

Nov 26, 2016#31

Dave

Krisken said:
Wait, who do you think is going to work with him?!?

Well, the US is already starting to relax restrictions. Under Castro II, Electric Boogaloo, things have been steadily improving. They've loosened the noose, so to speak. It's not anywhere near where we would like it to be and Obama and Raul sparred on this back in March. But Raul is nearing the end of his tenure as well and while not exactly pro-democratic, the future of Cuba is in the hands of more progressive people. I think that actively working with them to alleviate some of the economic pain would help them along and make it better for their people.

Nov 26, 2016#32

Krisken

Dave said:
Well, the US is already starting to relax restrictions. Under Castro II, Electric Boogaloo, things have been steadily improving. They've loosened the noose, so to speak. It's not anywhere near where we would like it to be and Obama and Raul sparred on this back in March. But Raul is nearing the end of his tenure as well and while not exactly pro-democratic, the future of Cuba is in the hands of more progressive people. I think that actively working with them to alleviate some of the economic pain would help them along and make it better for their people.

I mean, I hope the tensions stay relaxed and whatnot, but I feel like this current political climate is like a Bizarro world of "Lets do EVERYTHING opposite of the last administration". We will see though.

Nov 26, 2016#33

MindDetective

How else are you going to sneak in some capitalism?

Nov 26, 2016#34

strawman

sixpackshaker said:
wut?

Besides opening up Vietnam, the rest have been under the GOP watch.

North Korea? Cuba?

Dave said:
...while not exactly pro-democratic...

Are you even listening to yourself?

From the Human Rights Watch:

The Cuban government continues to repress dissent and discourage public criticism. It now relies less on long-term prison sentences to punish its critics, but short-term arbitrary arrests of human rights defenders, independent journalists, and others have increased dramatically in recent years. Other repressive tactics employed by the government include beatings, public acts of shaming, and the termination of employment.

If that's "not exactly pro-democratic" then I suspect you're going to be VERY happy with a Trump presidency!

[DOUBLEPOST=1480216850,1480216643][/DOUBLEPOST]

sixpackshaker said:
wut?

Besides opening up Vietnam, the rest have been under the GOP watch.

Although I admit that Hillary was pulling away from this during the election, but I have a hard time determining if it was merely to get votes, or if she really was pushing back on the Obama administration's recent overtures towards North Korea.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/10/us/politics/hillary-clinton-north-korea.html?_r=0

Nov 26, 2016#35

jwhouk

...This is TRUMP we're talking about. He'll close off diplomatic relations with Cuba just out of spite.

Nov 26, 2016#36

GasBandit

Dave said:
Won't know until we try, though will we? I mean, the stuff we've been trying hasn't helped at all. Maybe it's time to try something different.

Ah, going to the "Slickback method of bitch smacking for results" are we?

Nov 26, 2016#37

Eriol

MindDetective said:
How else are you going to sneak in some capitalism?

And all the bad aspects of cronyism with it? I would only say that Capitalism != Democracy, nor do either of those necessarily lead to an improvement of people's lives and/or freedom. See Russia for a good example of such for BOTH, or perhaps Egypt post-Mubarak pre-Military Coup, with them VOTING IN the Muslim Brotherhood and the "interesting" results for human rights I'm sure that would have had.

Nov 26, 2016#38

strawman

jwhouk said:
...This is TRUMP we're talking about. He'll close off diplomatic relations with Cuba just out of spite.

http://cuba-embargo.procon.org/

Nov 26, 2016#39

Dave

Way to cherry pick one part of one sentence from an entire post and use it as a basis for your argument.

Nov 26, 2016#40

GasBandit

Dave said:
Way to cherry pick one part of one sentence from an entire post and use it as a basis for your argument.

If you're referring to me, I used the entire post.

Just because "what we're doing hasn't been working" doesn't mean bad idea B will work, and that its untried nature is not necessarily a merit.

"You've tried NOT hitting the bitch, how has that been working for you? Maybe it's time to try something different."

Nov 26, 2016#41

blotsfan

jwhouk said:
...This is TRUMP we're talking about. He'll close off diplomatic relations with Cuba just out of spite.

Nah once he gets the rights for Trump Havanah it'll be great.

Nov 26, 2016#42

Dave

GasBandit said:
If you're referring to me, I used the entire post.

Just because "what we're doing hasn't been working" doesn't mean bad idea B will work, and that its untried nature is not necessarily a merit.

"You've tried NOT hitting the bitch, how has that been working for you? Maybe it's time to try something different."

No, not you. @stienman.

Nov 26, 2016#43

strawman

Dave said:
Way to cherry pick one part of one sentence from an entire post and use it as a basis for your argument.

Ok, I'll bite. Help me understand how "not exactly pro-democratic" is intended to be understood in context:

Dave said:
Well, the US is already starting to relax restrictions. Under Castro II, Electric Boogaloo, things have been steadily improving. They've loosened the noose, so to speak. It's not anywhere near where we would like it to be and Obama and Raul sparred on this back in March. But Raul is nearing the end of his tenure as well and while not exactly pro-democratic, the future of Cuba is in the hands of more progressive people. I think that actively working with them to alleviate some of the economic pain would help them along and make it better for their people.

Nov 26, 2016#44

Hailey Knight

It's like we can't have an upbeat dead people thread these days.

Nov 26, 2016#45

Denbrought

Zero Esc said:
It's like we can't have an upbeat dead people thread these days.

We could make best-of dead threads for people like Hitler, Franco, or the person who invented late fees. Those'd be upbeat.

Nov 26, 2016#46

Dave

stienman said:
Ok, I'll bite. Help me understand how "not exactly pro-democratic" is intended to be understood in context:

It's directly addressing the changing climate in Cuba from a purely Communist one to a more open society with eased restrictions on the populace. It's looking at how the place is improving and will continue to improve with more progressives as the old ways die out. By saying it's not exactly pro-democratic it's looking at how difficult the transition might be and how we need to nurture said progressives. The hard-line we've taken in the past did nothing productive. Easing restrictions while keeping an eye on human rights abuses can go a long way to helping the people of Cuba.

Nov 26, 2016#47

strawman

By saying "it's not exactly pro-democratic" you're suggesting that's it's very nearly pro democratic, and only differs technically or in some other small, inconsequential way.

The only way it can mean what you're suggesting is it you are saying it very, very sarcastically - essentially mocking your main argument.

If you're saying it honestly then you are using words in combinations that don't convey the intended meaning.

Nov 26, 2016#48

Dave

Yes, because one line of ironic text negates the remainder of the argument, no matter how serious. Like suddenly entire paragraphs are written ironically by association.

Nov 26, 2016#49

Denbrought

Spain maintaining diplomatic (and commercial) ties with Cuba did jack shit to hasten democracy along.

The U.S. 1950's (and beyond) propping up of the spanish dictatorship did jack shit to hasten democracy.

Don't overstate what you can do.

Nov 26, 2016#50

strawman

So that line was a joke and not intended to be taken seriously. Sorry I took it seriously, my bad.

Nov 26, 2016#51

Dave

I also used Castro 2, Electric Boogaloo.

Nov 27, 2016#52

tegid

What surprises me about this discussion is that you all think the main point of the embargo is improving human rights. Come on.

Nov 27, 2016#53

sixpackshaker

Corn country does not want sugar to make a comeback.

Nov 27, 2016#54

GasBandit

Nov 27, 2016#55

strawman

tegid said:
What surprises me about this discussion is that you all think the main point of the embargo is improving human rights. Come on.

We're that the case we'd have embargoed China.

Nov 27, 2016#56

Terrik

stienman said:
We're that the case we'd have embargoed China.

They sent me instead. Almost as bad.

Nov 27, 2016#57

Siska

The nicest thing I can say about Castro is that he wasn't as bad as some other dictators (Like Batista, hah) and he didn't seem to be self indulgent, so not a total hypocrite. He was still a power hungry, paranoid dictator who oppressed anyone who disagreed with him. I hope restrictions on and in Cuba continues to ease up.

Also, Ima lefty left left (that voted green party in Sweden) but the US green party is an impotent shitstorm as full of grifters as the the republican party. They are not getting my support any time soon.

Nov 27, 2016#58

tegid

stienman said:
We're that the case we'd have embargoed China.

Indeed.

Nov 27, 2016#59

Mathias

GasBandit said:

Nov 27, 2016#60

PatrThom

Dave said:
Yes, because one line of ironic text negates the remainder of the argument, no matter how serious. Like suddenly entire paragraphs are written ironically by association.

I think this was ultimately something similar to "couldn't care less" or "literally" where the understood meaning turned out different from the intended meaning due to the words' actual meaning being different than the common understanding of those words.
And then of course that gap widened in over the subsequent conversation.

--Patrick

Nov 27, 2016#61

Gruebeard

Dave said:
I also used Castro 2, Electric Boogaloo.

Wait. It isn't Bogaloo?

Nov 27, 2016#62

strawman

Gruebeard said:
Wait. It isn't Bogaloo?

Only when talking of the bog of eternal stench.

Otherwise it's boogaloo.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boogaloo

Nov 27, 2016#63

JCM

Funny thing, I've been to Cuba, and a month later, as I was jumping around pre-American Independence Havana in Assassin's Creed IV, I couldn't see any difference but the lack of old cars and ugly wiring, and no building lookied clean or was free of moss, cracks and soot.

Castro is a great example of how religion or ideology can destroy a country, another being post-Taliban Afghanistan or today's Venezuela.

Nov 27, 2016#64

Gruebeard

stienman said:
Only when talking of the bog of eternal stench.

Otherwise it's boogaloo.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boogaloo

Informative. I'm never going into that thread again.

Nov 28, 2016#65

fade

Nov 28, 2016#66

sixpackshaker

Now just imagine if he made the pitching staff for the Washington Senators...

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