Fuck the EU!

[Bubble181]

Not my words, obviously, but those of Victoria Nuland, Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs at the United States Department of State, when talking about how to "solve" the "issues" in Ukrain.

So, presumably, the Russians were eavesdropping on her (not something the US can complain about, of course), and she said this to Geoffrey Pyatt, ambassador in Kiev. She pretty openly states how they want to control the country and keep it in the Western sphere of influence...



Is this OK? Should we feel we can talk about our supposed allies like this? Should we be outraged the Russians were spying (hah yeahright)? Whatever?

 

[strawman]

Because no official in the EU has ever said, "#$€@ the US!" To someone else off the record.[DOUBLEPOST=1391782343,1391782155][/DOUBLEPOST]I should say that no, I don't believe it's ok, but these are politicians we are talking about. Do we really expect them to be respectful in private, when they can hardly do so in public?

 

[GasBandit]

Pretty dumb of them not to be talking over encrypted comms in freakin Latveria.

 

[Chad Sexington]

So, presumably, the Russians were eavesdropping on her (not something the US can complain about, of course)

Well, actually, yes, they can. Tu quoque is the fallacy of saying that just because someone does something wrong, does not mean they cannot point out a person doing that same wrong. For example, if I am cheating on my wife, and you cheat on your wife, and I tell you that you shouldn't do that... I may be a hypocrite, but it doesn't mean I'm wrong.

Secondly, no, people shouldn't speak like that, but they do, (I say this as a hypocrite, by the by), and of course the US is interested in Ukraine staying in the influence of western countries over Russia. "She pretty openly states..." well, yeah, was it ever a secret?

 

[AshburnerX]

The US is interested in trying containment again because it actually worked as planned last time. I actually prefer that they talk plainly like this, so that countries like Ukraine at least know what they are getting in bed with.

 

[Bubble181]

Except nobody ever asked the USA to step in. One side of Ukrain wants more European involvement, the other side wants Russian involvement, and a third side wants to go an independent course. Absolutely nobody wants yet-another-American-satellite-in-Eastern-Europe.

 

[AshburnerX]

Except nobody ever asked the USA to step in. One side of Ukrain wants more European involvement, the other side wants Russian involvement, and a third side wants to go an independent course. Absolutely nobody wants yet-another-American-satellite-in-Eastern-Europe.

Any of those decisions is crap for Ukraine. Europe might help crack down on corruption but it's never going to fully absorb Ukraine as a member state unless it can become financially solvent. They learned that lesson with Greece. Russia would turn it's head to the crime and corruption, probably backing the criminals in exchange for military access and support. Going independent keeps things status Que... which is basically the same as with Russia, only NO ONE is in charge except the current corrupt government, which has already shown what it thinks of it's people. An American puppet government would likely be more in line with a EU approach but even less likely to become a member state.

However, without a powerful backer Ukraine is going to stay the same. It simply doesn't have the things it needs to go it alone.

 

[Bubble181]

t it's never going to fully absorb Ukraine as a member state unless it can become financially solvent. They learned that lesson with Greece.

I'm sorry, I'm too busy rolling on the floor laughing from that.

We accepted in the Euro (let's forget about the Euro for a second) Greece based on figures we all knew to be fake. We let Germany in despite their failing to meet budget requirements 3 years running. France failed to meet the budgetary requirements for years on end. Spain and Italy both admitted to mocking up their figures to be let into the Euro. Belgium....Yeah, heh . We talk big but if we want someone in for political reasons, they'll be in. There's no reasonable excuse to have talks about becoming a member with Turkey - it's not exactly a European country, and they still don't follow most of our rules (capital punishment, drug, freedom of religion, freedom of the press, abuse of prisoners, access to basic education, some trade embargoes, the list goes on) - yet those talks are full underway. Stopped twice, resumed twice. We just let in Croatia - lovely country, been there on vacation, but my ass if they're solvent. We're holding talks with Cyprus! They just confiscated 10% of all savings to fund their banks because they were fundamentally bankrupt. We let in Romania! We're still sending shipments of used clothes over there for the poor orphans living in the streets!

If it's politically necessary, Ukrain could be a EU member in 5 years or so. I hope to high Heaven it won't, any time soon, but it can happen. I know you'll say Greece or Croatia are small potatoes compared to Ukrain - but Poland and Romania are two of our biggest members and let's just say they aren't anywhere near where they should've been for full membership.

I'm a huge fan of Europe, but the "true" EU should probably have stayed at the 15 + a few "new" members (Slovakia and Slovenia come to mind) from the ex-USSR who've progressed the fastest socially and economically. The others should've been taken into a free trade zone, given preferred partner status and all that, but should've been kept out for at least 5 to 10 more years so they could grow and evolve naturally into a state of their own.