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Full hard brexit. But at least its red white and blue.

Jan 15, 2017#1

twitchmoss

The UK said:
lets make the biggest political fuckup this year

America said:
Fuck you, hold my beer

The UK said:
Fuck YOU. Hold my tea you little upstart

Theresa May to say UK is prepared to accept hard Brexit

hard brexit means no single market and no customs union.
We're so fucked.

Jan 15, 2017#2

Bubble181

To be fair, for the Brexit to have any significant point as far as "control over borders/immigration" is concerned, you kind of need a hard Brexit. I mean, it's stupid and destructive, but yeah, that's what the people voted for. A Norway-like trade deal would mean less independence, not more.

Jan 15, 2017#3

Ravenpoe

So you wanna race towards oblivion, huh?

*looks at the next four years in the US*

Challenge accepted

Jan 17, 2017#4

Mathias

My oh my how far the stupids have come.

Wait? Does that still make them stupid, or is it a stupids in high numbers thing?

Jan 17, 2017#5

Dave

The only thing that fits both here and in the Trump thread:

Jan 17, 2017#6

SpecialKO

I guess Football Manager is out-of-date then.

Jan 17, 2017#7

Gruebeard

SpecialKO said:
I guess Football Manager is out-of-date then.

Well duh. They still kick the football. That's just so backwards.

. . . yeah yeah, I know there's some kicking in the real football, but forget about that for this post.

Jan 17, 2017#8

@Li3n

Gruebeard said:
. . yeah yeah, I know there's some kicking in the real football

Real football.... real foot ball... foot ball.... foot.... ball...

FOOT!!!!

Jan 17, 2017#9

PatrThom

@Li3n said:
Real football.... real foot ball... foot ball.... foot.... ball...

FOOT!!!!

That'd be Italy.

--Patrick

Jan 17, 2017#10

bhamv3

SpecialKO said:
I guess Football Manager is out-of-date then.

Believe it or not, this is one of the reasons I haven't gotten FM17. I usually play as an English team, and the prospect of having a huge chunk of the international transfer market cut off from me pretty much makes me not want to play.

Jan 19, 2017#11

SpecialKO

bhamv3 said:
Believe it or not, this is one of the reasons I haven't gotten FM17. I usually play as an English team, and the prospect of having a huge chunk of the international transfer market cut off from me pretty much makes me not want to play.

My co-workers are really into Football Manager, and one of them is in the same boat as you.

Jan 20, 2017#12

Covar

Are English football teams unaware of work visas?

Jan 20, 2017#13

Bubble181

Covar said:
Are English football teams unaware of work visas?

How visa will work between EU and UK is still very much up in the air and , certainly at first, will not be all that easy. After all, too many foreigners coming to work is exactly why they wanted out.

Jan 20, 2017#14

mikerc

Covar said:
Are English football teams unaware of work visas?

Assuming the visa rules for EU footballers are the same as the current rules for non-EU players any player UK clubs want to sign will need to have played in 30 - 75% of their national team's matches over the past 2 years (depending on FIFA ranking for that country). So that teenager who your scout tells you will be one of the top players in the world in a few years, but hasn't quite broken through yet? Not eligible for a visa. Neither is the player who picked up an injury just before the World Cup & was left out of his country's squad & as a result hasn't played in enough international's over the last 2 years. Or that German player who is better than the players you currently have, but isn't quite good enough for the German national team.

Jan 22, 2017#15

filmfanatic

Ravenpoe said:
So you wanna race towards oblivion, huh?

*looks at the next four years in the US*

Challenge accepted

...And looks like they're acting on it.

https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/193

Jan 22, 2017#16

@Li3n

filmfanatic said:
...And looks like they're acting on it.

https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/193

World survives Cold War... ends because coal jobs are on the way out... how fucking appropriate.

Jan 24, 2017#17

twitchmoss

government loses appeal, vote on article 50 to go ahead

well, thats good! theresa may was arguing that cabinet have the right to start the shitshow rolling without direct approval from parliament, which is hilarious/depressing/hilapressing? given the whole "SOVRNTY NOW FUCK BRUSSLS" bollocks. we might be able to get out of this alri-

Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn says his party will not "frustrate" the process for invoking Article 50.

oh god damn it. still its not like labour previously said that hard brexit was their limit, and they wouldnt support it.

oh. bugger.

Jan 24, 2017#18

jwhouk

Can I haz UK Supreme Court plz?

Jan 24, 2017#19

Bubble181

twitchmoss said:
government loses appeal, vote on article 50 to go ahead

well, thats good! theresa may was arguing that cabinet have the right to start the shitshow rolling without direct approval from parliament, which is hilarious/depressing/hilapressing? given the whole "SOVRNTY NOW FUCK BRUSSLS" bollocks. we might be able to get out of this alri-

oh god damn it. still its not like labour previously said that hard brexit was their limit, and they wouldnt support it.

oh. bugger.

Nobody dares to say "the people fucked up, we probably oughtn't do this". Same with the US electoral college :awesome:

Jan 24, 2017#20

@Li3n

twitchmoss said:
oh god damn it. still its not like labour previously said that hard brexit was their limit, and they wouldnt support it.

oh. bugger.

To be fair, invoking A50 and negotiating a hard brexit are different things.

Then again, i don't see how you can really leave the EU while staying in the common market...

Jan 24, 2017#21

Bubble181

@Li3n said:
Then again, i don't see how you can really leave the EU while staying in the common market...

ask Norway.

Jan 24, 2017#22

@Li3n

Bubble181 said:
ask Norway.

TIL, Norway used to be in the EU.

What i meant is, the EU will be in a much stronger position to negotiate the UK's re-entry in the common market once Brexit is over, and it will be a lot better for it to do it after, because otherwise it would give others ideas.

Jan 24, 2017#23

Bubble181

@Li3n said:
TIL, Norway used to be in the EU.

What i meant is, the EU will be in a much stronger position to negotiate the UK's re-entry in the common market once Brexit is over, and it will be a lot better for it to do it after, because otherwise it would give others ideas.

The UK has made it clear they don't want a Norway deal - for obvious reasons, I think - but it just shows that it's perfectly possible to be part of one and not the other. No, they technically didn't leave - they refused to join three times - but that doesn't really change much. it's like saying that a secceeded Texas couldn't possibly keep using the Dollar, while there are plenty of independant countries who, you know, do. Are there geopolitical reasons why the EU might not want to give it to them? Sure. Either way, it's a moot point since neither side wants a Norway scenario.

Jan 24, 2017#24

@Li3n

Wait, what independent countries use the US currency?

Jan 24, 2017#25

Eriol

@Li3n said:
Wait, what independent countries use the US currency?

That'd be zero, but a few British Overseas Territories do: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_dollar

It's in the header of the article. So non-USA places (they're NOT territories of the USA) but not full independent countries either.

Jan 24, 2017#26

Bubble181

Eriol said:
That'd be zero, but a few British Overseas Territories do: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_dollar

It's in the header of the article. So non-USA places (they're NOT territories of the USA) but not full independent countries either.

Wrong. [/trump]

Panama, Ecuador, the Caribean Netherlands, Bermuda. Argentina did, for a while. I can't name them all by heart, really. It's not because you don't use a dollar bill that you're not using the dollar.

And for another type of example, the US Dollar is one of the few legal ways of paying in Somalia.

Jan 24, 2017#27

Eriol

Bubble181 said:
Wrong. [/trump]

Panama, Ecuador, the Caribean Netherlands, Bermuda. Argentina did, for a while. I can't name them all by heart, really. It's not because you don't use a dollar bill that you're not using the dollar.

And for another type of example, the US Dollar is one of the few legal ways of paying in Somalia.

Read fail for me on the "several countries use it as their official currency" in the article I linked.

I'm going home. Work has drained me.

Peace all.

Jan 25, 2017#28

@Li3n

A better link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency_substitution

Some even have it instead of any currency. TIL.

Jan 25, 2017#29

Cog

You should have asked me. Dollar has been our currency for almost two decades.

Jan 25, 2017#30

@Li3n

Cog said:
You should have asked me. Dollar has been our currency for almost two decades.

Jokermimeland isn't a recognized country.

Jan 26, 2017#31

twitchmoss

Theresa May refuses to rule out private US firms taking over NHS services

Jan 26, 2017#32

PatrThom

Does this mean homesteading will make a comeback?

--Patrick

Jan 26, 2017#33

GasBandit

twitchmoss said:
Theresa May refuses to rule out private US firms taking over NHS services

THE AMERICANIZATION OF THE UK CONTINUES!

Jan 26, 2017#34

Krisken

Or as they are going to call it "The Stupiding"

Jan 26, 2017#35

@Li3n

twitchmoss said:
Theresa May refuses to rule out private US firms taking over NHS services

Well, maybe then youll actually need an extra 350 million going to it...

Apr 18, 2017#36

Bubble181

Therese May calls early elections to solidify support of the government. Right. Because it's not like both parties are still deeply divided or anything. What kind of signal can anyone send when all parties are still unclear with how or what?
It'll probably reduce UKIP presence in the House, but likely increase Scottish Nationalist and LibDems. Labour probably won't manage to get into gear fast enough, the Tories were probably briefed ahead of time and will roll out a "unified" "for Britain" "support May" campaign ASAP.

Apr 18, 2017#37

bhamv3

Teresa May may be a harpy, but she's a shrewd one all right.

Apr 18, 2017#38

DarkAudit

Apr 18, 2017#39

blotsfan

Could you imagine in the US if elections could just happen early? CNN would die of happiness.

Apr 18, 2017#40

Eriol

Article from Canada: British PM seeks early election on June 8
Article from the UK: Theresa May calls UK general election on 8 June

Just for some context.

Apr 18, 2017#41

DarkAudit

Does she have the votes to push the election through?

Apr 18, 2017#42

blotsfan

DarkAudit said:
Does she have the votes to push the election through?

From what I read, the main opposition party is going to support it, on the grounds that opposing it sends a clear signal that they know they're incredibly unpopular

Apr 18, 2017#43

mikerc

Bubble181 said:
It'll probably reduce UKIP presence in the House, but likely increase Scottish Nationalist and LibDems. Labour probably won't manage to get into gear fast enough, the Tories were probably briefed ahead of time and will roll out a "unified" "for Britain" "support May" campaign ASAP.

UKIP don't have any MP's atm. Difficult to see where SNP can increase their numbers - they only stand in Scottish seats & already have 54 out of 59 there. Lib Dems have to improve. No way they could do so badly twice in a row.

Labour might be happy to have a disaster as that's their best chance of finally getting rid of Corbyn as leader.

Apr 19, 2017#44

Frank

Corbyn is a political cockroach. It will take a nuclear apocalypse to dislodge him.

Apr 19, 2017#45

DarkAudit

blotsfan said:
From what I read, the main opposition party is going to support it, on the grounds that opposing it sends a clear signal that they know they're incredibly unpopular

Passed 522 to 13, so yeah.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Apr 24, 2017#46

DarkAudit

YouTube delivers...

Apr 24, 2017#47

Eriol

Dark, I gotta give it to ya, you're digging up Gold this morning. Possibly platinum!

Apr 24, 2017#48

bhamv3

Nigel Hawthorne is a treasure of all mankind.

Apr 25, 2017#49

@Li3n

The Brits are just getting ready to take back the empire, that's all...

Jul 29, 2017#50

DarkAudit

I may have posted this elsewhere already, but it still fits here...

Jan 17, 2018#51

DarkAudit

May 18, 2018#52

@Li3n

May 19, 2018#53

mikerc

@Li3n said:

*sigh* Really wish I could hit "disagree" on that.

Jun 26, 2018#54

mikerc

And after business leaders have reminded everyone that the UK leaving the EU without some sort of a deal will lead to businesses either drastically cutting back on investment in the UK if not outright leaving, Boris Johnson has given a calm, measured response to this.

No, wait. What he actually said was "Fuck business." Yes, that's a direct quote.

Jun 26, 2018#55

@Li3n

"It's only the free market when it goes my way!" - free market advocates everywhere

Jun 26, 2018#56

Dave

To be fair, I'd rather see "Fuck business." than the crony capitalism shit going on currently in the US. I mean, right now everything is tilted in favor of the corporation over the individual.

Jun 26, 2018#57

PatrThom

Turns out most corporations have more money than most individuals.
Who knew?

—Patrick

Jun 26, 2018#58

MindDetective

mikerc said:
And after business leaders have reminded everyone that the UK leaving the EU without some sort of a deal will lead to businesses either drastically cutting back on investment in the UK if not outright leaving, Boris Johnson has given a calm, measured response to this.

No, wait. What he actually said was "Fuck business." Yes, that's a direct quote.

Because Brexit was never ever ever about trade.

Jun 27, 2018#59

@Li3n

Dave said:
To be fair, I'd rather see "Fuck business." than the crony capitalism shit going on currently in the US. I mean, right now everything is tilted in favor of the corporation over the individual.

Sure, but that's not what this is, he's simply taking money/influence from other companies... remember the Murdoch thing.

Jun 27, 2018#60

Eriol

PatrThom said:
Turns out most corporations have more money than most individuals.
Who knew?

Hey look, collections of MORE THAN ONE PERSON (on average) have more money than just ONE PERSON!

Who knew?

Jun 27, 2018#61

PatrThom

Eriol said:
Hey look, collections of MORE THAN ONE PERSON (on average) have more money than just ONE PERSON!

Who knew?

So then the question becomes...when a corporation pulls from a pool of money generated by N people, what percentage of N gets to decide where all that money goes? How faithfully should it reflect the breakdown of the desires of N people? In other words...who gets to drive this thing?

--Patrick

Jun 27, 2018#62

Eriol

PatrThom said:
So then the question becomes...when a corporation pulls from a pool of money generated by N people, what percentage of N gets to decide where all that money goes? How faithfully should it reflect the breakdown of the desires of N people? In other words...who gets to drive this thing?

IMO the root cause of the craziness is that Corps are "legal persons" in some ways, rather than their shareholders being directly responsible for their conduct, and/or funds, but that's a long-standing gripe. I personally liked the person who said "I'll believe that corporations are people as soon as Texas executes one."

On another level though, once you've paid a worker who cut your grass, why should you determine what he/she does with such money? It's THEIRS. You do NOT have a say in how they spend/invest/"waste" it. But I may be misreading your previous post (or misreading the one before that too).

Jun 27, 2018#63

PatrThom

Eriol said:
once you've paid a worker who cut your grass, why should you determine what he/she does with such money? It's THEIRS. You do NOT have a say in how they spend/invest/"waste" it. But I may be misreading your previous post (or misreading the one before that too).

There's that chance, yes.

The question is more one of, in a company where 10% (or less) of the employees control 90% of that company's resources and influence, when we hear that CompanyA has donated 20mil to some cause, exactly whose interest is being served? Especially since in a corporation, there's no real way for employees to "vote."

--Patrick

Jun 27, 2018#64

strawman

You’re mixing up the concept of a collective with corporations, and conflating employees with owners.

Jun 27, 2018#65

PatrThom

stienman said:
You’re mixing up the concept of a collective with corporations, and conflating employees with owners.

Who? Me, or @Eriol ?

--Patrick

Jun 27, 2018#66

Eriol

PatrThom said:
So then the question becomes...when a corporation pulls from a pool of money generated by N people, what percentage of N gets to decide where all that money goes? How faithfully should it reflect the breakdown of the desires of N people? In other words...who gets to drive this thing?

PatrThom said:
The question is more one of, in a company where 10% (or less) of the employees control 90% of that company's resources and influence, when we hear that CompanyA has donated 20mil to some cause, exactly whose interest is being served? Especially since in a corporation, there's no real way for employees to "vote."

Patrick, what's your opinion on the following:

A factory owner pays her workers $150 per coat they produce. She then collects and sells those coats at $200 each to a distributor. The materials cost $100 per coat. Costs of the factory, tools (replacement over time), etc, are important but let's say that per worker they are $10 per coat.

Is the factory owner stealing $50 of value from the workers?

I ask this, because a variant of this is often a "parable" of communist thought, and it seemed to "echo" from the "money generated by N people" that you said above, at least to me.

Jun 27, 2018#67

Gruebeard

Eriol said:
Patrick, what's your opinion on the following:

A factory owner pays her workers $150 per coat they produce. She then collects and sells those coats at $200 each to a distributor. The materials cost $100 per coat. Costs of the factory, tools (replacement over time), etc, are important but let's say that per worker they are $10 per coat.

Is the factory owner stealing $50 of value from the workers?

I ask this, because a variant of this is often a "parable" of communist thought, and it seemed to "echo" from the "money generated by N people" that you said above, at least to me.

Is the employee paying for the materials to make the coat, or is the factory owner just terrible at business?

Jun 27, 2018#68

Eriol

Gruebeard said:
Is the employee paying for the materials to make the coat, or is the factory owner just terrible at business?

Because the example was from memory, and I'm bad at repeating it, let's say the worker pays that, and the tools cost.

Jun 27, 2018#69

figmentPez

Eriol said:
I ask this, because a variant of this is often a "parable" of communist thought, and it seemed to "echo" from the "money generated by N people" that you said above, at least to me.

Regardless of how flawed the conclusion drawn from that "parable" is, it still brings up an important point: We severely undervalue human capital. That's one of the biggest problems with capitalism that I can see. (That and the mistaken notion that the purpose of business is to make as much money as possible. No, the purpose is the fair and equitable exchange of goods, services, and/or currency.)

It's kinda weird, mass produced capital comes off the line with a kind of built-in "union" of sorts. Every Chevy off the line is part of a "Chevy union of automobiles", with all the collective bargaining that comes with that. Generally speaking, none of those vehicles are going to rush out to undercut all the others. Every time human labor has been replaced by robot labor, the robots came with a union. They get paid up front (unless they're rented, or have a maintenance contract), but they still got collective bargaining.

It's not a perfect analogy, since robots and cars aren't human, but humans need more advocates standing up for just how much human capital is worth, and how little people get paid, mainly because people are ready and willing to severely undercut each other, because you have to work to live. Even though Chevy has competition with Ford, Subaru, and others, they're still looking for the long term, and no one in the car business is interested in having the price move so low that it's unsustainable. However, there are a lot of humans willing to take unsustainable jobs, just because that's better than nothing.

And, getting back to the subject at hand, big corporations very often have a vested interest in keeping human capital undervalued, and will often use their money to fund a political voice demanding that we continue to undervalue human capital. So I see @PatrThom 's point, that the money these workers should be valued at is going to speak in the political realm, very often against the worker's best interests.

Jun 27, 2018#70

PatrThom

The parable you present is only tangent to my point.

Let me try one:

A priest shepherds a small town, and looks after its spiritual well-being. He baptizes the born, comforts the sick, and delivers rites to the departed. If he delivers a sermon on the evils of the violence and corruptive influence of cable television, is it truly because he believes God disapproves of these influences? Or is it perhaps because his cousin owns the local video rental place?

figmentPez said:
I see @PatrThom 's point, that the money these workers should be valued at is going to speak in the political realm, very often against the worker's best interests.

It's more about how if a company DOES decide to take a stand, any kind of stand, the influence generated by many will be concentrated and directed by only a few, and as such there is enormous potential for abuse, arrogance, and as Pez says, a tendency for the deciders to consider their own personal interests over those of the workers, or even over the company itself.

--Patrick

Jun 28, 2018#71

@Li3n

Eriol said:
Hey look, collections of MORE THAN ONE PERSON (on average) have more money than just ONE PERSON!

Who knew?

Yeah, i'm sure that if you take a bunch of random people and add their (on average) money together they'll come close to having as much as a corporation (on average).

Eriol said:
A factory owner pays her workers $150 per coat they produce. She then collects and sells those coats at $200 each to a distributor. .

Congrats, you're a communist now... paying the worker the bulk of the profit the factory produces... that's redder then the USSR flag.

The only thing that's missing is the worker also owning the factory, along with the manager, and everyone else.

And since a factory actually needs management, it's not really a perfect example of what Marx was complaining about. It was more about the thing that was more common at the time, like people working a field they don't own, and the majority of the profits going to someone who only contributed owning the land.

Jul 9, 2018#72

DarkAudit

Well this certainly can't be good.

Jul 9, 2018#73

@Li3n

Can't it? No more Boris sounds great to me.

Jul 9, 2018#74

Bubble181

Brexiteers still live in a fantasy world. The EU had made it very, very clear that the UK will never get freedom of goods without freedom of people. In other words - either you're in a customs union with us, and both goods and people can easily travel, or you're not, and neither can. Of course there are options - Norway and Switzerland both have special status - but those never allow you more power for less than being a member. If you don't want borders in northern Ireland and Gibraltar, you'll have to accept European people too - including Polish and Bulgarian laborers.
May's move towards a softer Brexit is because of this, and any brexiteer who thinks the UK will be better off without is either foolish, lying, or obtuse. Northern Ireland and Scotland have made it very clear they want to keep trading freely with Europe. This move might result in the breaking up of the UK rather than the EU.

Jul 9, 2018#75

strawman

Remember when the EU was formed as a trade union, in order to embrace the economic advantages of free trade, and didn't dictate immigration law, human rights, etc - but focused solely on goods and services?

Pepperidge Farm remembers.

Jul 9, 2018#76

DarkAudit

stienman said:
Remember when the EU was formed as a trade union, in order to embrace the economic advantages of free trade, and didn't dictate immigration law, human rights, etc - but focused solely on goods and services?

Pepperidge Farm remembers.

Human rights as a negative. What in the hell is wrong with you, man?

Jul 9, 2018#77

PatrThom

DarkAudit said:
Human rights as a negative. What in the hell is wrong with you, man?

I am at a loss as to how you derived this from his statement.

--Patrick

Jul 9, 2018#78

jwhouk

PatrThom said:
I am at a loss as to how you derived this from his statement.

--Patrick

What were once vices are now virtues.

Jul 10, 2018#79

strawman

DarkAudit said:
Human rights as a negative. What in the hell is wrong with you, man?

I’m sorry you don’t remember.

The UK was practically a mad max wasteland before the EU stepped in with their human rights and converted them to a proper first world country.

I too will be sad to see it return to the wastes after brexit.

Alternately you don’t have to be so intentionally obtuse. We could have great discussions and debates, you and I, if you set down the pitchfork and torch for a bit.

Jul 10, 2018#80

@Li3n

stienman said:
I’m sorry you don’t remember.

The UK was practically a mad max wasteland before the EU stepped in with their human rights and converted them to a proper first world country.

I too will be sad to see it return to the wastes after brexit.

It's funny, because back then people trusted the UK to adopt human rights more then they do now when it comes to keeping them.

But you're right, the UK would have likely adopted the same laws anyway... their politicians just loved blaming the EU for them to try and make the people think it's not their fault if they didn't like some of the effects. Which is why everyone and their grandmother thinks the Brits would regress without the EU keeping them in check.

Then again, they did try to ban porn, and there's CCTV everywhere...

Post automatically merged: Jul 10, 2018

Bubble181 said:
Brexiteers still live in a fantasy world.

I still remember when Farange went to Brussels after and basically demanded they get to keep all the advantages of being in the EU, but not pay into it at all...

Nov 15, 2018#81

DarkAudit

As @Hailey Zero Mission was saying in another thread, the UK cabinet is imploding today.
:popcorn:

Nov 15, 2018#82

blotsfan

Thank god for the U.K. so we're not alone in gross incompetence.

Nov 15, 2018#83

Hailey Knight

Theresa May: my way or no Brexit.

Okay ... no Brexit then?

Nov 15, 2018#84

Bubble181

Hailey Zero Mission said:
Theresa May: my way or no Brexit.

Okay ... no Brexit then?

Except "no Brexit" isn't actually on the table, either. "No deal Brexit" is much more likely.

Dec 9, 2018#85

Dave

Dec 9, 2018#86

bhamv3

Dave said:

This is hilarious... yet also rather disturbing at the same time.

Dec 9, 2018#87

sixpackshaker

It is a bit shocking how much Andy looks like her without CGI.

Dec 10, 2018#88

mikerc

First the ECJ has ruled that the UK can withdraw from their decision to withdraw from the EU staying in as if they'd never invoked Article 50. Now the Commons vote on the deal Theresa May negotiated that was definitely absolutely no-question going to happen tomorrow has been cancelled.

Second referendum on Brexit incoming?

Dec 10, 2018#89

blotsfan

mikerc said:
Second referendum on Brexit incoming?

I'm not saying Brexit isn't stupid but what is stopping them from doing another vote again after that?

Dec 10, 2018#90

mikerc

blotsfan said:
I'm not saying Brexit isn't stupid but what is stopping them from doing another vote again after that?

As far as I know? Nothing. Although 2 things are worth noting.

1) This opportunity to change our minds only applies as long as Brexit is ongoing. As soon as the leave date hits (currently 29 March 2019 23:00 GMT or 30 March 00:00 CET) the UK is out & would then have to re-apply to join the EU if we change our minds.

2) A lot of EU politicians were concerned that this could lead to various members invoking Article 50, getting a better deal to stay, and then revoking it. I wouldn't be surprised to see them change the law so that you can't change your minds after announcing your intent to leave. At that point any hypothetical Brexit Referendum 3 would be the last one.

Dec 12, 2018#91

DarkAudit

Today looks to be another :popcorn:

Dec 16, 2018#92

@Li3n

"The Irish really should know their place."

There it is...

Dec 16, 2018#93

blotsfan

It's interesting how when you're a small player but in a larger union, you can get the benefits of strength in numbers that you couldn't on your own. Can't see how that'd be relevant here though.

Jan 8, 2019#94

@Li3n

Jan 15, 2019#95

Bubble181

Brexit vote in the HOuse of Commons was, as expected, a defeat for May. Still, expectation management said anything under 60 votes difference would be a win, more than 200 was unlikely. She lost 432 to 202, so a 230 vote difference. Yowtch. No Deal (or No Brexit) seems all the more likely.

Jan 15, 2019#96

Gruebeard

So, is the EU gonna give 'em another chance to negotiate a deal? I heard talk they would consider extending the exit date.

Jan 15, 2019#97

blotsfan

Bubble181 said:
No Deal (or No Brexit) seems all the more likely.

I know May has said she'd do the latter before the former, though that might have been posturing to get the proposed deal through. If I'm understanding it correctly, there's still 0 idea of how to do a Brexit that doesn't involve closing the Irish Border, which would be a massive problem.

Jan 27, 2019#98

mikerc

Rumours says that the UK government is planning on introducing martial law after a no deal brexit. The BBC asks a government minister if there's any truth to that. His answer? "It remains on the statute books..." :aaah:

Feb 5, 2019#99

Siska

blotsfan said:
I know May has said she'd do the latter before the former, though that might have been posturing to get the proposed deal through. If I'm understanding it correctly, there's still 0 idea of how to do a Brexit that doesn't involve closing the Irish Border, which would be a massive problem.

And Ireland in particular is unlikely to agree to any deal that doesn't keep that border open.

Feb 8, 2019#100

Krisken

I miss Ireland. I'd move there if I thought I'd definitely have a job waiting for me.

Feb 20, 2019#101

mikerc

8 Labour & 3 Conservative MP's have quit their parties & come together to form a new Independent Group over the way their parties have treated Brexit, well that & the increasingly blatant anti-semitism in their party in the case of the Labour MP's. While this isn't officially a new Political Party yet that's probably only a matter of time & they're already tied with the Lib Dems for fourth largest party in Westminster.

Feb 24, 2019#102

evilmike

Feb 25, 2019#103

TommiR

evilmike said:

Hmm? Did somebody steal my avatar?

They're thieves! They're thieves! They're filthy little thieves! Where is it? Where is it? They stole it from us, our precious. Curse them! WE hates them! it's ours it is, and we wants it! We wants it, we needs it. Must have the precious. They stole it from us. Sneaky little hobbitses. Wicked, tricksy, false!

Mar 13, 2019#104

PatrThom

--Patrick

Mar 13, 2019#105

jwhouk

So.

No-Deal Brexit.

Mar 13, 2019#106

blotsfan

jwhouk said:
So.

No-Deal Brexit.

Did that actually pass? I just saw the last vote failed. It seems more likely they'd scrap the whole thing rather than do no-deal.

Mar 13, 2019#107

Bubble181

blotsfan said:
Did that actually pass? I just saw the last vote failed. It seems more likely they'd scrap the whole thing rather than do no-deal.

Thing is, many people seem to think we'll end up with a "very soft" or even no Brexit...but that's not the default. The No-deal-extension-asking-pretty-please is due for a vote this evening, and even that might not get a majority...But even if it does, it only means they can ask. It's the EU that has to go along with it, and they've pretty much said they won't prolong it past May, since there are European Parliament elecitons and the UK'd have to hold a vote for them during the negotiations, which would be ridiculous.
Anyway, the default option is an auto-leave. A lot of political commentators and such are trying to pretend it isn't true, but it is. Once the activated Article 50, they decided they'd leave AT THE LATEST on 29/03. There's no legal framework for an extension. There's no binding framework for anything ,other than just..."Nope, you're not a part of the club anymore, have fun on your own". That's why they were given 2 years to negotiate. It seems likely no single option - hard Brexit, soft Brexit, little ball of fur - will get a majority...But that doesn't mean "we'll just keep chugging along", it means "we'll face an uncontrolled crash of epic proportions".

Mar 13, 2019#108

blotsfan

Yeah but it seemed like no-deal would be such a complete and utter disaster than all but the most Russian politicians would rather just scrap it entirely than do that.

Mar 13, 2019#109

Bubble181

blotsfan said:
Yeah but it seemed like no-deal would be such a complete and utter disaster than all but the most Russian politicians would rather just scrap it entirely than do that.

Sure, but "scrapping it altogether" isn't technically an option. And there are a LOT of Russian or otherwise incompetent or bought politicians in the UK - Hard/No-Deal Brexit is gaining support....
I'm still hoping Northern Ireland and Scotland just secede from the UK and re-join the EU.

Mar 13, 2019#110

blotsfan

Bubble181 said:
I'm still hoping Northern Ireland and Scotland just secede from the UK and re-join the EU.

Northern Ireland ending up being an independent nation would be an odd ending to all this

Mar 13, 2019#111

Bubble181

blotsfan said:
Northern Ireland ending up being an independent nation would be an odd ending to all this

Is something neither side wants, but the public might prefer to a new war.

Mar 13, 2019#112

@Li3n

jwhouk said:
So.

No-Deal Brexit.

Nope, they just voted that down too...

It's no votes all the way down...

........

Also, a reminder:

Mar 17, 2019#113

jwhouk

In honor of today, I present to you Sir Paul McCartney and friends:

Mar 20, 2019#114

ScytheRexx

From what I remember reading, this might happen. Supposedly as part of the Good Friday agreement, the people of Northern Ireland can basically vote to rejoin with Ireland proper if they have enough of a majority. Considering many in northern ireland are not happy with the brexit decision, we are probably as close as we have ever been to the chance of a true unified Ireland. Was there a new development on this I missed?

Mar 20, 2019#115

blotsfan

I could be wrong, but isn't reunification pretty unpopular in NI, just with a very vocal minority?

Mar 20, 2019#116

Dave

blotsfan said:
I could be wrong, but isn't reunification pretty unpopular in NI, just with a very vocal minority?

Lord knows vocal minorities can't get their way in government or policy decisions.

Mar 20, 2019#117

ScytheRexx

blotsfan said:
I could be wrong, but isn't reunification pretty unpopular in NI, just with a very vocal minority?

Before Brexit, yes. After Brexit, and with how long the entire thing has dragged out, has seen polls slowly and slowly increase for a referendum vote. Before Brexit the vast majority saw no desire for a referendum. Last month, polls showed it about 50/50 now with a edge going to do a referendum vote in the next 5 years.

Mar 20, 2019#118

jwhouk

The video was basically because of the date, but yes, I'd have to believe that NI would rather reunite than have a border suddenly thrust across it again.

Mar 20, 2019#119

Gruebeard

Yarr! Repel the boarders! Throw them in the sea!

Mar 20, 2019#120

Celt Z

Gruebeard said:
Yarr! Repel the boarders! Throw them in the sea!

Don't get the Irish wet. It just makes them multiply.

Mar 20, 2019#121

Gruebeard

Celt Z said:
Don't get the Irish wet. It just makes them multiply.

So, like, one of my bartenders is Irish (but a Canadian citizen), and she just shipped on over there for a couple years.

Now I won't be able to mention her in this thread without feeling very very bhamv.

Mar 20, 2019#122

Tress

Celt Z said:
Don't get the Irish wet. It just makes them multiply.

Irish people as gremlins? Makes sense. Every Irish person melts when exposed to sunlight.

Mar 20, 2019#123

Bubble181

Unifying Ireland will make bombs go off. Sticking a huge big border across Ireland will make bombs go off. Putting a customs border in the Irish Sea will most likely make bombs go off.
I don't really see the future of NI in a very positive light.

Mar 20, 2019#124

Gruebeard

Bubble181 said:
Unifying Ireland will make bombs go off. Sticking a huge big border across Ireland will make bombs go off. Putting a customs border in the Irish Sea will most likely make bombs go off.
I don't really see the future of NI in a very positive light.

Hopefully the bombs don't start until after my bartender's visa is up. She's in Northern Ireland right near the border. I forget which city.

Mar 20, 2019#125

Gruebeard

I mean, hopefully the bombs never start, but if they do.

Mar 20, 2019#126

mikerc

Theresa May won't ask for an extension beyond 30 June. EU won't agree to a short extension like this without MP's voting to accept May's deal. They won't do that. Guess we're leaving on the 29th with no deal.

Oh & like the petulant child he is Jeremy Corbyn walked out of a meeting between party leaders to try & find a solution to the whole mess when he saw that Chuka Umunna was also invited.

Mar 21, 2019#127

blotsfan

The British version of change.org did a "let's not leave the EU" petition. It got a million signatures in a day. Then the site went down.

Mar 21, 2019#128

blotsfan

I know there's been a lot of talk about Scotland and Northern Ireland, but has there been any news about Gibraltar? Seems like they really aren't gonna want to deal with a hard border with Spain. I know they voted overwhelmingly against it, but I haven't heard anything since then.

Mar 21, 2019#129

Gruebeard

Now, I know this is just one single quote from one single cog in the government, but what idiocy it suggests:

Another soft Brexit cabinet source described the mood as “depressing” and said of no deal: “The risk is now very real.”

I mean, the risk has been very real from the very start of the process. Had the UK really not thought through the fact that this has been real from the start. It's like the country is realizing "oh shit, we're actually doing that thing we agreed to do."

Mar 29, 2019#130

Dei

May 23, 2019#131

DarkAudit

Various news sources are reporting May could resign as early as today.

May 24, 2019#132

bhamv3

Yep, she gone. Officially stepping down on June 7.

May 24, 2019#133

Hailey Knight

godiwishthatwasmycountry.jpg

May 25, 2019#134

Hailey Knight

Jul 23, 2019#135

blotsfan

Wait Boris Johnson is prime minister now?

Jul 23, 2019#136

Hailey Knight

Every country gets a Trump!

Jul 23, 2019#137

DarkAudit

So we've gone from shitshow to explosive diarrhea.

Jul 24, 2019#138

@Li3n

I though that was obvious based on the previous votes, since he was always ahead.

But Farange is the UK's Trump... Boris is more like a Chris Christie...

Aug 15, 2019#139

blotsfan

So trump promised the U.K. that if he was president, they'd get a fantastic trade deal if they brexited. Now Nancy Pelosi said they won't get any deal if the Good Friday agreement is violated. Given that it's about to be no-deal, and there's 0 understanding about how that could happen without violating Good Friday, it seems like the right wing just made things worse for almost everyone, as they always do.

Aug 15, 2019#140

mikerc

blotsfan said:
So trump promised the U.K. that if he was president, they'd get a fantastic trade deal if they brexited. Now Nancy Pelosi said they won't get any deal if the Good Friday agreement is violated. Given that it's about to be no-deal, and there's 0 understanding about how that could happen without violating Good Friday, it seems like the right wing just made things worse for almost everyone, as they always do.

Even if Pelosi does allow the "fantastic trade deal" to pass the House, the Trump administration is planning on doing the trade deal on a sector by sector basis. Which is illegal under WTO rules.

Aug 15, 2019#141

Bubble181

mikerc said:
Even if Pelosi does allow the "fantastic trade deal" to pass the House, the Trump administration is planning on doing the trade deal on a sector by sector basis. Which is illegal under WTO rules.

And who's going to stop them? WTO? Don't make me laugh.

Aug 15, 2019#142

mikerc

Bubble181 said:
And who's going to stop them? WTO? Don't make me laugh.

Sadly you're right. And call me crazy but I'd prefer if my country doesn't start negotiating its own trade deals again by breaking the accepted rules everyone's supposed to abide by.

And that's not even getting into that the US has made it clear one of the first sectors they'll insist on is allowing US farmers to flood the British market with cheap produce that doesn't meet the current minimum standards in food hygiene.

Aug 15, 2019#143

Tress

mikerc said:
And that's not even getting into that the US has made it clear one of the first sectors they'll insist on is allowing US farmers to flood the British market with cheap produce that doesn't meet the current minimum standards in food hygiene.

Aug 26, 2019#144

@Li3n

Aug 26, 2019#145

DarkAudit

Aug 26, 2019#146

@Li3n

Aug 28, 2019#147

mikerc

Parliament opens again on 2nd Sept. Boris is planning on proroging Parliament effectively shutting it down again from 11th Sept till 14th Oct. Brexit is currently due to happen on 31st Oct.

Officially this is just a bog standard new Prime Minister wanting to get a Queens Speech to lay out what his Governments plans are going forward. Unofficially this is a blatant attempt to cut Parliament out of Brexit negotiations to allow him to force a No Deal Brexit.

Aug 28, 2019#148

DarkAudit

So what would happen if instead of granting the request as things usually go, she were to instead say, "just what do you idiots think you're doing?"

Aug 28, 2019#149

mikerc

DarkAudit said:
So what would happen if instead of granting the request as things usually go, she were to instead say, "just what do you idiots think you're doing?"

In theory? Parliament just stays open. In practice? Constitutional crisis with calls to abolish the monarchy. They wouldn't come to anything but it would be the most serious threat to the monarchy in decades. Not that it matters anyway - the Queen NEVER plays politics so she won't refuse the PM's request.

Although if we're talking about theoretical situations - well technically the armed forces pledge allegiance to the monarch rather than parliament or the office of PM. Nothing stopping her from ordering them to instituting a military coup to restore Britain to an absolute monarchy so that she can take over negotiations with the EU.

Aug 28, 2019#150

DarkAudit

mikerc said:
Although if we're talking about theoretical situations - well technically the armed forces pledge allegiance to the monarch rather than parliament or the office of PM. Nothing stopping her from ordering them to instituting a military coup to restore Britain to an absolute monarchy so that she can take over negotiations with the EU.

There's bound to be an AU where this just happened. Wonder what the BBC broadcasts from there look like right about now.

Aug 28, 2019#151

Bubble181

mikerc said:
In theory? Parliament just stays open. In practice? Constitutional crisis with calls to abolish the monarchy. They wouldn't come to anything but it would be the most serious threat to the monarchy in decades. Not that it matters anyway - the Queen NEVER plays politics so she won't refuse the PM's request.

Although if we're talking about theoretical situations - well technically the armed forces pledge allegiance to the monarch rather than parliament or the office of PM. Nothing stopping her from ordering them to instituting a military coup to restore Britain to an absolute monarchy so that she can take over negotiations with the EU.

Nope, the Magna Carta explicitly forbids the monarch from trying that in the UK - the military is allowed to disregard orders that threaten the constitutionally made order.

Having said that, the Queen's in a tough spot: "not playing politics" is not the same as "accepting his request" - it's inherently political. This is a straight-out attack on parliamentary democracy. If Erdogan or Putin said "ehh, close parliament down for a month so I can force my own view on this issue through", we'd be calling them authoritarian un-Western dictators.
My guess is a motion of no confidence and early elections beginnning of October, followed by a request for extension...which the EU might refuse, but will most probably accept, yet again.

Aug 28, 2019#152

Bubble181

Just in: Queen accepted request.

Aug 28, 2019#153

mikerc

Bubble181 said:
Nope, the Magna Carta explicitly forbids the monarch from trying that in the UK - the military is allowed to disregard orders that threaten the constitutionally made order.

Look, I just want the Queen to stage a military coup. Is that so wrong?

Bubble181 said:
Having said that, the Queen's in a tough spot: "not playing politics" is not the same as "accepting his request" - it's inherently political. This is a straight-out attack on parliamentary democracy. If Erdogan or Putin said "ehh, close parliament down for a month so I can force my own view on this issue through", we'd be calling them authoritarian un-Western dictators.

Except in this instance the least political option she has is to go with existing convention. Which is to take the advice of her PM and close Parliament.

Bubble181 said:
My guess is a motion of no confidence and early elections beginnning of October, followed by a request for extension...which the EU might refuse, but will most probably accept, yet again.

Yeah, that's what I'm expecting too. Well, maybe not quite early October. Expectation is it will take at least 7 weeks after a vote of no confidence to arrange an election, so 21st Oct at the earliest.

Aug 28, 2019#154

Eriol

Bubble181 said:
Nope, the Magna Carta explicitly forbids the monarch from trying that in the UK - the military is allowed to disregard orders that threaten the constitutionally made order.

Britain has had absolute monarchies AFTER the Magna Carta was signed (1215). Remember, once you say "the military will X" the only "force" that matters is force of arms. Force of Law means jack shit at that point. The next most formidable thing at that point tends to be the force of the personalities involved.

If everything goes horrible, and the Queen says "military, for the good of the country, do X" and they actually follow her, then that's what happens, because they're the ones with the guns. Let's just all hope such an action would actually be transitional. If they don't follow her, or it's not merely transitional, then that's something else again.

Aug 28, 2019#155

PatrThom

Eriol said:
If everything goes horrible, and the Queen says "military, for the good of the country, do X" and they actually follow her, then that's what happens

--Patrick

Sep 3, 2019#156

DarkAudit

Welp. Boris just lost his majority in Parliament.

Sep 3, 2019#157

ScytheRexx

Every time I hear anything about Brexit it always feels like I am watching a train crash in slow motion.

Sep 3, 2019#158

blotsfan

Honestly it seems like if there was ever a time for Sinn Fein to take there seats, this would be it.

Edit: though now that I think about it, I can think of nothing that would help lead to a United Ireland better than no-deal Brexit.

Sep 3, 2019#159

Dave

blotsfan said:
Honestly it seems like if there was ever a time for Sinn Fein to take there seats, this would be it.

Edit: though now that I think about it, I can think of nothing that would help lead to a United Ireland better than no-deal Brexit.

I've spoken with a few Irish national friends and they think the opposite. They think a no-deal Brexit could very much lead to a resurgence of the Troubles.

Sep 3, 2019#160

blotsfan

Dave said:
I've spoken with a few Irish national friends and they think the opposite. They think a no-deal Brexit could very much lead to a resurgence of the Troubles.

I feel like both could be true.

Sep 3, 2019#161

Ravenpoe

ScytheRexx said:
Every time I hear anything about Brexit it always feels like I am watching a train crash in slow motion.

It's a nice change of pace from the lightspeed continuous crash happening in our own country.

Sep 4, 2019#162

Bubble181

Ravenpoe said:
It's a nice change of pace from the lightspeed continuous crash happening in our own country.

Hey now, it's just Boris trying to show off to his master. Look how fast I can dismantle parliamentary democracy from within daddy! I can do it too daddy! Lookitmeeeee!

Sep 4, 2019#163

blotsfan

"What do we want?"
No!

"When do we want it?"
No!

(I know I didn't come up with that. Idc)

Sep 4, 2019#164

@Li3n

Dave said:
I've spoken with a few Irish national friends and they think the opposite. They think a no-deal Brexit could very much lead to a resurgence of the Troubles.

But since NI voted Remain, they might have the numbers, and be pissed off enough at Westminster for fucking the backstop, to vote to unite with Ireland (which i think was part of the deal back in the day when Ireland got independence), to avoid going back to the Troubles.

Sep 4, 2019#165

jwhouk

Yeeeeah about that... NI is still 90%+ Protestant, so no.

Sep 4, 2019#166

blotsfan

jwhouk said:
Yeeeeah about that... NI is still 90%+ Protestant, so no.

Where are you getting that? It looks like it's 40% Catholic.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Northern_Ireland

Sep 4, 2019#167

Bubble181

A) NI is in a bit of a pickle - if and when Brexit eventually happens, they've either got a visible border, or they're out of the UK, or the Backstop's been implemented. Options 1 and 2 would both more than likely lead to a resurgence of the Troubles. There's more animo for nationalism amongst the neutral these days, though, who were strongly in favor of unionism 20-30 years ago. As for numbers, I'd say the 40% is closer than the 90%

B) Today was an interesting day. In response to Boris' attempt to ~~completely ignore the public wil~~l make democracy more lean and efficient by sending parliament home for 5 weeks, parliament has voted that a no-deal Brexit cannot go through. WWhen Boris next pushed for a general election, Parliament refused him that, too. Good luck, Boris! I honestly don't know why the EU would want to keep the UK in anymore, though. They've cost us enough in economic downturn and slowdown and dragging all other decision making in EUrope to a standstill. God only knows what happens if Europe says "Backstop or no deal", now, though.

Sep 5, 2019#168

blotsfan

Now I'm no expert on Parliamentary Democracy but this seems odd.

Sep 5, 2019#169

DarkAudit

blotsfan said:
Now I'm no expert on Parliamentary Democracy but this seems odd.

Probably because of the Fixed-term Parliament Act. They Government can no longer call an election out of sequence without the Opposition agreeing to it, or a vote of no confidence.

Sep 6, 2019#170

mikerc

If they do hold a VONC I hope all the opposition MP's abstain so that it is just the Conservative MP's voting to bring down their own Government. And of course the danger for Boris in this is that losing a VONC doesn't automatically trigger a GE. Parliament stays open for 14 days & if someone can win a Vote of Confidence - which just requires a simple majority - in that time then no GE & that person becomes the new PM. Granted there's probably no-one in Parliament who could win a VOC (Corbyn is barely trusted more than Boris, no chance in hell they're voting for an SNP PM, and the next largest party - the LIb-Dems - only have 15 MP's) but the possibility is there.

Sep 6, 2019#171

DarkAudit

Sep 6, 2019#172

Bubble181

Problem being...Who do you vote for? Most of the Conservatives are pro-Brexit, but not pro-no-deal-Brexit. Labour is even more divided. SNP is pro-Europe - but only in Scotland, and they're nationalists. LibDems are anti-Brexit, but but they're pretty liberal - and a vote for them in most areas is still a lost vote similar to the USA third party problem - FPTP voting is horrible. And there's the Brexit party, which is at least clear on what they want to do with Brexit, but are otherwise "whatever we feel like" on social, environmental, economic and foreign affairs topics.

Sep 6, 2019#173

DarkAudit

Sep 11, 2019#174

mikerc

And Boris suspending Parliament has just been ruled unlawful. So is Parliament open again now? If not what was the point of the case? And if Parliament does reopen & the Government appeals against that & wins what happens to any decisions Parliament makes in the meantime? Do they remain on the statute books or are they wiped?

Edit: Ah, Parliament stays closed until at least Tuesday next week when there's a full hearing at the Supreme Court.

Sep 24, 2019#175

DarkAudit

Sep 24, 2019#176

Bubble181

Yup, and unanimously at that.

Sep 24, 2019#177

DarkAudit

150K stranded British travelers are glad they're still in the EU right now...

Sep 30, 2019#178

Dave

Sep 30, 2019#179

PatrThom

More like "BrEtsy," but still...wow.

--Patrick

Oct 9, 2019#180

Bubble181

Thought we'd hit rock bottom yet? Let's start digging again!

Oct 9, 2019#181

@Li3n

I too remember how great NI was before the customs union... #bringbackthetroubles

Oct 9, 2019#182

Celt Z

@Li3n said:
I too remember how great NI was before the customs union... #bringbackthetroubles

Oct 17, 2019#183

blotsfan

So there's a new deal that won't pass?

Oct 17, 2019#184

mikerc

blotsfan said:
So there's a new deal that won't pass?

Juncker apparently suggesting that the EU won't agree to another extension so either this new deal passes or it's a no deal Brexit.

Oct 17, 2019#185

blotsfan

Or...no Brexit? Maybe?

Oct 17, 2019#186

mikerc

Nigel Farage hates the EU so much that when they agree that the UK is definitely leaving at the end of the month his response is basically "YOU CAN'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO!"

Nige, the Benn Act just says the UK PM has to ask for an extension to Brexit if there's no deal agreed. It doesn't say that the EU has to agree to one since y'know they're not British citizens or currently in the UK so are not covered by UK laws.

Oct 21, 2019#187

@Li3n

Didn't Nigel make it clear that he doesn't actually want to leave the EU, he just wants Britain to just get all the advantages without contributing to it at all?

Post automatically merged: Oct 21, 2019

Oct 28, 2019#188

blotsfan

Is there a rationale to this or is it just the Lib Dems playing Nader to Corbyn's Gore?

Oct 28, 2019#189

mikerc

blotsfan said:
Is there a rationale to this or is it just the Lib Dems playing Nader to Corbyn's Gore?

UK parliament has to be shut for 25 working days before an election. I'm not sure how many working days there is due to be between now & 9th Dec because parliament doesn't always sit on a Friday, but 25 working days would be pretty close to the 9th. Lib Dems are complaining about not wanting to give Boris time to ram through legislation after a GE has been set (even though if he had the votes he'd do that regardless).

Government seems to be pushing for the 12th because that's a Thursday and UK elections are always held on a Thursday.

Dec 12, 2019#190

ScytheRexx

I feel I am watching the UK dissolve in real time here.

Dec 13, 2019#191

Bubble181

ScytheRexx said:
I feel I am watching the UK dissolve in real time here.

Boris has clearly said he doesn't want a new Scottish independence referendum. If he's not careful, both Scotland and northern Ireland may dissolve back into violent and deadly disagreement. This is dangerous, but what does he care? He's still made history.
Also, fuck Corbyn. Any decent Labour leader would've done better. Unlike in the US, voters were faced with a choice between a blonde lying scumbag and literal near-communism.

Dec 13, 2019#192

mikerc

Bubble181 said:
Also, fuck Corbyn. Any decent Labour leader would've done better.

The one good thing about this election is that Corbyn has finally realised that he has to go as leader of the Labour Party. Hopefully we get someone at least halfway sane in there so that there is finally a creditable alternative to the Tory madness.

Feb 14, 2020#193

@Li3n

Feb 14, 2020#194

Krisken

I heard that is a fake account.

Feb 16, 2020#195

@Li3n

Feb 16, 2020#196

jwhouk

Shocked. This is my shocked face. See how shocked I am? I'm shocked.

Feb 16, 2020#197

Celt Z

jwhouk said:
Shocked. This is my shocked face. See how shocked I am? I'm shocked.

Feb 17, 2020#198

blotsfan

The goal of Brexit was to intentionally crash the economy so the ultra rich can buy everything up on the cheap.

Feb 17, 2020#199

PatrThom

blotsfan said:
The goal of Brexit was to intentionally crash the economy so the ultra rich can buy everything up on the cheap.

I don't know if it was the actual "goal," per se, but once it became apparent that that's where it was heading, I sure didn't see anyone try to step in and slow it down.

--Patrick

Feb 17, 2020#200

blotsfan

PatrThom said:
I don't know if it was the actual "goal," per se, but once it became apparent that that's where it was heading, I sure didn't see anyone try to step in and slow it down.

--Patrick

Brexit was largely funded by a guy who literally made billions doing this in the post-USSR region. I'm sorry I can't remember his name because my googlefu is failing but I beleive he's from New Zealand if that's any help.

Feb 17, 2020#201

Bubble181

Quite a few of the anti-Brexit stuff from the super rich - not the normal people - did come off as if they were talking about that there briar patch.

Apr 15, 2020#202

@Li3n

Typical: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-52293061

Apr 15, 2020#203

PatrThom

Well at least they're not immigrants, right?

--Patrick

Jul 1, 2020#204

DarkAudit

This thread. Oh my goodness gracious this thread.

Jul 1, 2020#205

blotsfan

That story is funny, but I feel bad for any Brits in that situation who didn't vote for Brexit.

Jul 1, 2020#206

Bubble181

blotsfan said:
That story is funny, but I feel bad for any Brits in that situation who didn't vote for Brexit.

My brother has a second house in France, and quite a few people in their area are Brits - it's a typical area for them to retire. Since Brexit, over the past few years, the pound has really fallen a LOT in comparison to the Euro, already making it difficult. The looming future of a no-deal Brexit is really scaring them a lot - they might be forced to leave their possessions, due to Covid might not even be able to get everything back to the UK in time, .... It's a sad and scary situation to be in.

Jul 1, 2020#207

PatrThom

blotsfan said:
I feel bad for any Brits in that situation who didn't vote for Brexit.

I feel worse for the ones who voted against it.

--Patrick

Jul 1, 2020#208

blotsfan

PatrThom said:
I feel worse for the ones who voted against it.

--Patrick

Jul 1, 2020#209

Dave

DarkAudit said:
This thread. Oh my goodness gracious this thread.

Is there an unpacking of this thread? I can't seem to find one and I can't find the beginning.

Jul 1, 2020#210

PatrThom

blotsfan said:

What? I assume low voter turnout is not exclusive to the USA.

--Patrick

Jul 1, 2020#211

Dave

He gave you that look because you know what he meant and was being pedantic. In other words, you're doing the thing again.

Jul 1, 2020#212

DarkAudit

Dave said:
Is there an unpacking of this thread? I can't seem to find one and I can't find the beginning.

That was the beginning. Click on Show This Thread, and you should get the whole thing.

Jul 1, 2020#213

Dave

DarkAudit said:
That was the beginning. Click on Show This Thread, and you should get the whole thing.

He's cut it up into several threads. I'll try and look again.

Jul 1, 2020#214

Dave

I see what happened. I clicked on the wrong part of the post. It took me straight to his account, not the thread in question.

That's what I get for trying to post on a super-small text page.

Jul 2, 2020#215

Ravenpoe

Dave said:
I see what happened. I clicked on the wrong part of the post. It took me straight to his account, not the thread in question.

That's what I get for trying to post on a super-small text page.

Well the account is deleted now so...

Jul 2, 2020#216

PatrThom

Glad I peeked at least once while it was still there.

--Patrick

Jul 2, 2020#217

Dave

Ravenpoe said:
Well the account is deleted now so...

The hell? Wonder why they did that? Maybe getting sued for the "idiot son" and all that?

Jul 2, 2020#218

Ravenpoe

Dave said:
The hell? Wonder why they did that? Maybe getting sued for the "idiot son" and all that?

I have no idea, I didn't see it before it was deleted

Jul 2, 2020#219

netsirk

Dave said:
The hell? Wonder why they did that? Maybe getting sued for the "idiot son" and all that?

Reportedly the last tweet from the now-deleted account:

So because people are stupid we can't have ~~entertaining~~ nice things. (Seems as though the original was a send-up, but people got all huffy about it regardless.) A different person on twitter (@ PunkProfStories) has taken up the thread and continued the saga.

Jul 6, 2020#220

blotsfan

When things are going great.

Sep 1, 2020#221

Frank

Sep 1, 2020#222

PatrThom

This guy obviously doesn't realize that comedy is a barometer for a society.

--Patrick

Sep 1, 2020#223

Bubble181

Eh. Comedy - and public TV in general - are mostly made by artistic types, who usually have a higher education, and a far more left than center political view than the average person. Statistical fact, proven a million times over. Just like journalists, as a group, tend to be further left than average. Nothing wrong with either.
The problems begin when politicians feel the need to regulat what is "good" or "bad" art or comedy. it's a dangerous slippery slope...But one where the first steps make some sense - comedians/programmers need to be aware of it and balance it out a bit.

Sep 1, 2020#224

mikerc

Boris Johnson built his early political career off the back of his appearances on Have I Got News For You. Will that be one of the left-wing comedy shows to be axed?

Sep 9, 2020#225

@Li3n

You guys have really been slacking over here.

Boris has been cooking up a new law that totally shits on the agreement he actually managed to get with the EU, esp. concerning NI.

It's like they're trying to get the worst possible outcome!

Brexit: PM defends planned changes to Withdrawal Agreement

The government publishes a bill which overwrites key parts of the Withdrawal Agreement with the EU.

www.bbc.com

Sep 9, 2020#226

Bubble181

Yeah, trying to write a law while literally saying it'll go against international law and treaties is a great way of getting more sympathy from Europe.
No, wait, dictators. That's who I meant to say. Dictators will live the crooked reasoning of "or internal laws can circumvent or exclude parts of international law we agreed to".

Dec 29, 2020#227

mikerc

Hey @GasBandit does this site support Netscape? Because that's apparently going to be the equivalent of a modern browser in post-Brexit Britain.

Dec 29, 2020#228

PatrThom

Gonna be hard to run England while limited to only 40-bit encryption.

--Patrick

Dec 31, 2020#229

mikerc

*Gears up for the post apocalyptic wasteland ~~Great~~ Britain is about to become*

Jan 11, 2021#230

mikerc

Firstly, that's clearly a car he's driving not a lorry.

Secondly, the border guard is, well, a border guard. His job is to prevent people taking contraband into the EU. Meat & dairy products from non-EU countries have been contraband for years. This is literally what he has to do to do his job.

Thirdly, the US & Australia (and probably lots of other countries) have this rule as well. I bet you anything most of their border guards would have treated the guy no better & probably worse than the Dutch did.

Jan 18, 2021#231

@Li3n

Jan 18, 2021#232

PatrThom

I thought the second pic was going to be the same bus from the first pic, but with a boot.

--Patrick

Jan 21, 2021#233

@Li3n

Jan 26, 2021#234

PatrThom

Really? Every political figure? On both sides of the channel?
HMMMmmmm.....

--Patrick

Jan 26, 2021#235

Krisken

I hope she writes and tells them to go fuck themselves. Good gravy.

Jan 26, 2021#236

drifter

The infuriating thing is it'll probably work.

Jan 26, 2021#237

ScytheRexx

"We wouldn't have ruined our lives with Brexit if you didn't keep sending over all those stinky brown people and poles, Angela!"

- The Brexiteers, probably.

Mar 14, 2021#238

Frank

So, uh, how're things now that apparently any sort of protesting can amount in a ten year prison sentence and the monarchy has been outed as parasitic ghouls (also racist)?

England feels like a lost cause of authoritarian nastiness. Ireland and Scotland should probably bail asap or be drawn in deeper into the spiral of complete irrelevance.

Mar 14, 2021#239

mikerc

Frank said:
So, uh, how're things now that apparently any sort of protesting can amount in a ten year prison sentence

Well, that hasn't happened yet. The Bill about that will be read in Parliament tomorrow so it could still hopefully be voted down.

Incidentally the Bill also pretty much makes it illegal to protest outside Parliament & drastically increases the authority of the police to impose restrictions on protests everywhere else. As in, if the protest is noisy or will have an impact on even one passer-by the police can shut it down. Meaning it will essentially only be legal to protest if no-one knows you are protesting.

Mar 17, 2021#240

Frank

So NOW it feels like England is a lost cause.

Mar 17, 2021#241

Bubble181

Frank said:
So NOW it feels like England is a lost cause.

What, because of the V for Vendetta protesting laws? Or the... Tone deaf response to the Everard case? Or one of a dozen other things could wrong these days?

Mar 17, 2021#242

Frank

Yes

Mar 18, 2021#243

mikerc

Bubble181 said:
What, because of the V for Vendetta protesting laws? Or the... Tone deaf response to the Everard case? Or one of a dozen other things could wrong these days?

Or the plans to put extra limits on the ability to challenge government decisions in court?

Mar 28, 2021#244

@Li3n

Mar 28, 2021#245

blotsfan

I was reading about it, while they like to talk about that guy, something like 98% of Brits living abroad voted to stay in the EU, so they're mostly getting fucked.

Mar 28, 2021#246

ScytheRexx

Brexit is like the definition of "Leopards At My Face", so many people are enjoying the schadenfreude of it all.

Lots of Brexiteers really thought they were important enough to the EU that the UK could leave while keeping all the benefits of being a member, without any of those pesky negatives like "immigration".

Mar 30, 2021#247

@Li3n

blotsfan said:
I was reading about it, while they like to talk about that guy, something like 98% of Brits living abroad voted to stay in the EU, so they're mostly getting fucked.

Oh, it seems it's even worse, because anyone who's been living abroad for more then 15 years couldn't even vote: https://www.theguardian.com/politic...lose-legal-battle-right-to-vote-eu-referendum

May 13, 2021#248

Frank

Go Scotts.

Jun 6, 2021#249

@Li3n

Jun 6, 2021#250

PatrThom

Also the weather went up 5°C.

--Patrick

Jul 22, 2021#251

@Li3n

Brexit: UK wants to redraw Northern Ireland Protocol

Lord Frost says the Northern Ireland Protocol is tearing the UK's "fabric" - but the EU won't renegotiate.

www.bbc.com

Aug 9, 2021#252

@Li3n

Womp womp:

Vodafone to bring back roaming charges from January

It follows EE's decision to reintroduce daily charges for using phone tariffs while in Europe

www.bbc.com

Aug 10, 2021#253

Bubble181

A bunch of Anti-vaxxers decided to storm the Television Centre in London, because of the BBC's pro-vaccine propaganda and the Main Stream media being themselves the biggest virus infecting the minds of people.

...too bad the BBC moved out of the Television Centre back in 2013, hey?

Aug 10, 2021#254

PatrThom

Bubble181 said:
A bunch of Anti-vaxxers decided to storm the Television Centre in London, because of the BBC's pro-vaccine propaganda and the Main Stream media being themselves the biggest virus infecting the minds of people.

...too bad the BBC moved out of the Television Centre back in 2013, hey?

--Patrick

Sep 8, 2021#255

mikerc

Boris Johnson earlier: "We should never forget we are the party of low taxation."

Also Boris: Imma raise taxes on National Insurance even though not doing that was one of the pledges we made before the last election.

Sep 8, 2021#256

blotsfan

Say what you will about america and the republicans but at least even when they win elections, it’s not because people actually voted for them. Wtf UK.

Sep 11, 2021#257

@Li3n

mikerc said:
Boris Johnson earlier: "We should never forget we are the party of low taxation."

Also Boris: Imma raise taxes on National Insurance even though not doing that was one of the pledges we made before the last election.

Ah yes, the Reagan Manoeuvre.

Wonder if BoJo will end up as lionised.

Sep 16, 2021#258

blotsfan

Welcome back, friends.

Sep 16, 2021#259

PatrThom

They will once again be able to say they don't have an ounce of sense between them instead of 28 grams of sense.

--Patrick

Sep 16, 2021#260

Frank

12 Higgins to the fancysquare

Sep 25, 2021#261

Frank

Holy shit you poor UK souls, is the amount of shit you're out of because of Brexit being bandied about online true?

How are you not tearing politicians apart via horses and rope (if the country isn't out of horses and rope respectively)?

Sep 25, 2021#262

Bubble181

Frank said:
Holy shit you poor UK souls, is the amount of shit you're out of because of Brexit being bandied about online true?

How are you not tearing politicians apart via horses and rope (if the country isn't out of horses and rope respectively)?

It's not the fault of Brexit! It's the fault of Covid! The whole world is out of... Bananas, and cream, and meat, and aspirin, and whatever!

Sep 27, 2021#263

@Li3n

Sep 29, 2021#264

DarkAudit

Even the Let's Talk Soccer thread isn't immune...

Oct 4, 2021#265

figmentPez

Oct 4, 2021#266

PatrThom

Heh. I saw that exact image as a graphic on reddit, I wonder if the paper got permission to reproduce it, or just appropriated it.

--Patrick

Oct 4, 2021#267

drifter

The illustrator is a Thai political cartoonist who often works with the Bangkok Post. That cartoon is from 2019.

Nov 22, 2021#268

mikerc

Anyone remember that episode of Doctor Who where Ten brings down Harriet Jones as Prime Minister by asking "Don't you think she looks tired?" After a bizarre, rambling (even for him) speech where he went off on a tangent about Peppa Pig World a reporter asked Boris "Is everything OK?"

Since we are highly unlikely to end up with the actual Master as his replacement I am hopeful about what this could mean for British politics. Or I think I am anyway. I don't actually remember what it feels like to be hopeful about politics.

Nov 22, 2021#269

GasBandit

If only pants shitting, bad posture, bad-stroke level wandering dialog had been bad enough to undo Trump.

Nov 22, 2021#270

Cat

GasBandit said:
If only pants shitting, bad posture, bad-stroke level wandering dialog had been bad enough to undo Trump.

I think I've said this before here but you can argue that trump is one of our more democratic presidents bc he accurately represented the people who voted for him

Nov 22, 2021#271

jwhouk

I dunno, I think I’d welcome Michelle Gomez as the next PM.

Nov 22, 2021#272

Frank

How does anyone vote for someone incapable of brushing their hair?

It's like...basic.

Nov 22, 2021#273

Cat

Frank said:
How does anyone vote for someone incapable of brushing their hair?

It's like...basic.

Psychopaths get real good at brushing their hair. Slovenliness looks like normalcy, the common people love it

Nov 23, 2021#274

mikerc

Frank said:
How does anyone vote for someone incapable of brushing their hair?

It's like...basic.

Oh, he's capable. Plenty of people have spoken about seeing him purposefully mess up his hair right before going in front of TV cameras. The hair is a deliberate stylistic choice, and worse, one that worked.

Nov 23, 2021#275

Chad Sexington

Frank said:
How does anyone vote for someone incapable of brushing their hair?

It's like...basic.

My Boris Johnson story

With four minutes to go, Boris Johnson ran in. I was already concerned – maybe more concerned than Boris. It was an awards ceremony at the Hilton, Park Lane. The room was packed with financial people in bow ties. It was a couple of years before Johnson became Mayor of London. At this point he

www.spectator.co.uk

This is possibly the greatest insight into Boris Johnson I have ever read.

Nov 23, 2021#276

Cat

Chad Sexington said:
My Boris Johnson story

With four minutes to go, Boris Johnson ran in. I was already concerned – maybe more concerned than Boris. It was an awards ceremony at the Hilton, Park Lane. The room was packed with financial people in bow ties. It was a couple of years before Johnson became Mayor of London. At this point he

www.spectator.co.uk

This is possibly the greatest insight into Boris Johnson I have ever read.

I couldn't find that speech but this seems very similar

Nov 23, 2021#277

Frank

I'm aware the messy hair thing is on purpose, but how do you look at that buffoon and say, "This unkempt rambling moron is who I want making decisions for millions of people"?

Nov 23, 2021#278

Cat

Frank said:
I'm aware the messy hair thing is on purpose, but how do you look at that buffoon and say, "This unkempt rambling moron is who I want making decisions for millions of people"?

He represents those people. I am very empathetic and I can think like other people. Most people are a sewer

Nov 23, 2021#279

ScytheRexx

Frank said:
I'm aware the messy hair thing is on purpose, but how do you look at that buffoon and say, "This unkempt rambling moron is who I want making decisions for millions of people"?

"He tells it like it is."

These people look at Boris and for some reason see his baboonery as honesty, rather then just another fake brand he developed over a successful political career. It's the same reason Trump was elected, they saw his lack of filter as honesty, even though nearly everything that came out of his mouth was a deflection or a open lie.

Nov 23, 2021#280

DarkAudit

ScytheRexx said:
It's the same reason Trump was elected, they saw his lack of filter as honesty, even though nearly everything that came out of his mouth was a deflection or a open lie.

The result of decades of mental abuse at the hands of Old Man Fred. Not excusing it one bit, because he dished it out to others as much as Daddy did to him. even to his own family.

Nov 24, 2021#281

Krisken

Frank said:
I'm aware the messy hair thing is on purpose, but how do you look at that buffoon and say, "This unkempt rambling moron is who I want making decisions for millions of people"?

We just had Trump as a president and may again someday. You really are surprised by any of this?

Nov 24, 2021#282

Frank

I'm not surprised but still baffled.

Nov 25, 2021#283

mikerc

This isn't anything to do with Brexit, but since this thread seems to have morphed into a general British politics thread...

A Tory MP has claimed that young men are turning to a life of crime due to a lack of positive role models because a woman is playing the Doctor now. Hmmm, the most successful media franchise over the past few years (if not ever) is the MCU. How does that work out again? Oh, yeah.

Movies:

Male Led:
Iron Man
Incredible Hulk
Iron Man 2
Thor
Captain America:The First Avenger
Iron Man 3
Thor: The Dark World
Captain America: Winter Soldier
Ant-Man
Captain America: Civil War
Doctor Strange
Spider-Man: Homecoming
Thor: Ragnarok
Black Panther
Spider-Man: Far From Home
Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings

Female Led:
Captain Marvel
Black Widow

Ensemble (mostly male):
Avengers
Guardians of the Galaxy
Avengers: Age of Ultron
Guardians of the Galaxy Vol 2
Avengers: Infinity War
Avengers: Endgame

Ensemble (mostly female):
N/A

Ensemble (equal):
Ant-Man and the Wasp
Eternals

TV:

Male Led:
The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
Loki

Female Led:
WandaVision

Ensemble (mostly male):
What If...?

Ensemble (mostly female):
N/A

Ensemble (equal):
Hawkeye

I think I may have spotted a flaw in his argument. :rolleyes:

Nov 25, 2021#284

Cat

Is it really an equal ensemble if there are two members?

Nov 25, 2021#285

Celt Z

mikerc said:
This isn't anything to do with Brexit, but since this thread seems to have morphed into a general British politics thread...

A Tory MP has claimed that young men are turning to a life of crime due to a lack of positive role models because a woman is playing the Doctor now.

Well, the transport secretary did blame the lack of female engineers on Thomas the Tank Engine , sooooo....

...look, how did you guys have an empire again?

Nov 25, 2021#286

GasBandit

Celt Z said:
...look, how did you guys have an empire again?

Rum, sodomy, and the lash!

Nov 25, 2021#287

bhamv3

GasBandit said:
Rum, sodomy, and the lash!

Sounds like my ideal prom night!

Nov 26, 2021#288

mikerc

Celt Z said:
Well, the transport secretary did blame the lack of female engineers on Thomas the Tank Engine , sooooo....

...look, how did you guys have an empire again?

Because we had a flag!

Nov 26, 2021#289

Bubble181

Right, but we need positive role models. Angry hulking out, selfish Iron Manning, spoiled Thor,....Maybe they consider all of those bad role models? :-P

May 18, 2022#290

PatrThom

Weird. I expected the proportion of "We got the Brexit we voted for" was going to be only 1%, or maybe even a little under.

--Patrick

May 18, 2022#291

Bubble181

Gosh. You mean Brexiteers lied? What a shocker. What an absolute shocker.

Next you'll tell me Republican women in the Handmaid's Tale didn't get the Restoration of Personal Freedoms they expected.

Jun 28, 2022#292

mikerc

New Scottish independence referendum incoming?

Well, not anytime soon - despite this court challenge pretty much every legal scholar agrees the Scottish Parliament does not have the authority to call a legally binding referendum on independence. And any non-legally binding referendum would be boycotted by the pro union side.

For those of you wondering why there's a push for a new referendum despite the one in 2014 being touted as a "once in a generation" vote, well...Brexit. One of the big arguments made for staying in the UK was that leaving also meant leaving the EU. Pro independence parties will point out that there was a higher percentage of votes cast in Scotland for staying in the EU than the percentage of votes for staying in the UK (62% to 55%). The pro union side argue back that because of the higher turnout in 2014, actually more people voted to stay in the UK than the EU (2,001,926 to 1,661,191).

Jun 28, 2022#293

Bubble181

Scotland and NI, both having pro-EU majorities, should leave the UK. I know, it won't happen any time soon and would mean violence in NI, but still. They're both still being forced along by the f'in idiots in England.

Jun 28, 2022#294

@Li3n

Violence in NI is kind of inevitable anyway, since the Tories keep talking about changing the deal on it....

And if things keep going as they have...

Fucking darkest timeline...

Jun 28, 2022#295

mikerc

@Li3n said:
Violence in NI is kind of inevitable anyway, since the Tories keep talking about changing the deal on it....

And if things keep going as they have...

Fucking darkest timeline...

There's a pattern to it as well. New scandal about Boris hits, sudden increase in talk on changing the deal.

Literally risking people's lives for short term political gain. :mad:

Jul 5, 2022#296

mikerc

UK Health Secretary has resigned.

Immediately followed by the Chancellor.

Surely this is the end for Boris

Jul 5, 2022#297

bhamv3

This feels less like ministers taking a principled stand and more like rats fleeing a sinking ship.

Jul 6, 2022#298

Bubble181

These have now all left:

Cabinet

Chancellor Rishi Sunak
Health Secretary Sajid Javid

Ministers

Will Quince, education minister
Alex Chalk, solicitor general
Robin Walker, education minister
John Glen, Treasury minister
Victoria Atkins, justice minister
Jo Churchill, environment minister
Stuart Andrew, housing minister
Kemi Badenoch, levelling up minister
Neil O'Brien, levelling up minister
Alex Burghart, education minister
Lee Rowley, business minister
Julia Lopez, culture minister
Mims Davies, work and pensions minister

Parliamentary private secretaries

Jonathan Gullis, Northern Ireland Office
Saqib Bhatti, Department of Health and Social Care
Nicola Richards, Department of Transport
Virginia Crosbie, Welsh Office
Laura Trott, Department of Transport
Felicity Buchan, Department of Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy
Selaine Saxby, Treasury
Claire Coutinho, Treasury
David Johnston, Department of Education

But Boris seems to truly believe he can still go on and get out on top. I'd be reminded of some other yellow-haired buffoon on a power trip who can't understand the concept of stepping down gracefully, but at least there doesn't seem to be anyone interested in organizing a coup for this one.

Jul 6, 2022#299

chris

What happened that they all step down now?

Jul 6, 2022#300

Bubble181

Well, honestly, the last scandal seems to be just the straw that broke the camel's back. Last month Johnson - barely - survived a vote of no confidence over the lack of trust people had in him and how Government wasn't trustworthy anymore etc.
Earlier, he appointed Chris Pincher as deputy chief whip. Fair enough. But Pincher had a bunch of scandals swirling around him - several allegations of sexual misconduct and inappropriately touching.
Now, when this surfaced, Johnson claimed - and had others claim in name of the government - that he didn't know anything about them. Then that he know about unsubstantiated rumors but nothing more. Then, that he know about official charges, but that they'd all been dismissed. Then, that he knew about them, and hadn't all been dismissed but that they weren't serious.

He made - yet another - stupid mistake in appointing someone with sexual misconduct charges, simply because he's loyal. Because personal loyalty is such a good basis for government. Now, he's done that kind of thing before and has gotten away with it. But this time around, apparently, he lied directly to his ministers and chancellors etc, so that they'd go on TV and spread his lies. Then, when the truth came out, all of them looked like they'd been lying and protecting the PM. And, again apparently, this sort of thing has also happened before. They're all tired and sick of being dragged down and being either lied to, or asked to lie, because a government that isn't trusted and doesn't have support, simply can't govern.
I'm definitely not saying I like the Tories. Some of them are horrible human beings with revolting political ideas. But, at least when compared to US Republicans, they have some amount of pride and shame left, and actually use it.

Jul 7, 2022#301

blotsfan

And he’s stepped down.

Jul 7, 2022#302

Bubble181

blotsfan said:
And he’s stepped down.

Well, yes, but no, but actually sort of.

He's stepping down as party leader effective immediately and as PM in October. Which has literally never happened in the UK (the PM is traditionally also party leader - yeah, it's weird but hey). Also, it would mean "leading a government" for 2-3 months with no power, no backing, no future. It's completely ridiculous. Every gracious form of stepping down or moving aside for the good of the country and/or party and he's throwing them away to stay put as long as possible.

Jul 7, 2022#303

mikerc

Bubble181 said:
Well, yes, but no, but actually sort of.

He's stepping down as party leader effective immediately and as PM in October. Which has literally never happened in the UK (the PM is traditionally also party leader - yeah, it's weird but hey). Also, it would mean "leading a government" for 2-3 months with no power, no backing, no future. It's completely ridiculous. Every gracious form of stepping down or moving aside for the good of the country and/or party and he's throwing them away to stay put as long as possible.

Ehhh, actually both David Cameron & Theresa May stepped down as party leader but not PM. As soon as there's a new leader of the Conservative Party Boris will be replaced as PM. The reason he's staying until October is because that's when the Tories have their big annual conference which is also when they usually officially announce their new leader. Cameron for instance resigned as party leader on 24 June 2016 intending to stay on until October as PM - it's just Theresa May was the only person going for the job so she was installed on 13 July 2016 without a leadership election with Cameron leaving as PM that day. Similarly May herself resigned as party leader on 24 May but was still PM until 24 July 2019 when Boris became the new party leader and PM.

If the Tories choose a quick leadership election Boris goes as soon as the next party leader is chosen.

Jul 7, 2022#304

GasBandit

Bubble181 said:
Well, yes, but no, but actually sort of.

Jul 8, 2022#305

Mathias

Bubble181 said:
Gosh. You mean Brexiteers lied? What a shocker. What an absolute shocker.

Next you'll tell me Republican women in the Handmaid's Tale didn't get the Restoration of Personal Freedoms they expected.

I remember when the whole Brexit movement started via Nigel Farage, and laughing at the irony when it passed and he resigned because he directly knew what a cluster fuck it would cause. That's always been the problem with these populist asshats. They know what they spout in actual policy would ruin everything. They run their mouths trying to score points from racists and bigots on failed referendums so they can then move to sell books and have TV shows.

see also: Trump wanted to lose 2016 because he was just running to get brand recognition.

Jul 9, 2022#306

Bubble181

While, again, not saying I'm in any way fond of the Tories (they're in some ways more and in some ways less conservative than the Republican party era 2012).

Aug 18, 2022#307

Frank

How things were going and now how things are going in the UK.

Aug 20, 2022#308

@Li3n

Now thar they no longer have to listen 2 those Brussels autocrats they can eat whatever they want... REAL MEN EAT MOULD AND LIKE IT!!!!

Sep 5, 2022#309

figmentPez

Kent brewery hailed as Brexit ‘export champion’ has one EU customer left

"The brewery now has just one EU customer, a Berlin pub operator who travels to England by van to pick up the beer. The value of the Kent brewery’s annual beer exports have fallen from £600,000 to £2,000."
...
“Some transport companies won’t take alcohol now because of all the transit documents you need."
...
“He was stuck because of the paperwork. He used to come over for just one night, but now it takes four days because of all the problems.”

Sep 5, 2022#310

Bubble181

I used to regularly buy stuff from the UK, now I always look for an alternative. It's currently cheaper to import from the US than from the UK, simply because of customs and taxes. The trade agreement is an absolute disaster for small businesses and individuals. Maybe there'll be a trade agreement with exemptions for small shipments again, but not right now.
There is seriously no reason to try and import anything from the UK to the EU if there's any way to avoid it, packages of €10 will get easily €25 of imports added to it.
For things like beer and art where things are technically unique, it absolutely sucks...But even if they can organize with other breweries, they'll still face the fact that getting their beer into the EU is FAR more expensive than just buying something similar on the EU market.

Sep 5, 2022#311

Bubble181

Liz Truss has officially won.
Well, that's great.
I assume most people here don't know her.
Let's be clear: nobody does, because her "ideals" change wit the weather. She's somehow managed to go from leftist (socialist for the Americans) over LibDems (liberal centrist - legalize cannabis, get rid of the Monarchy, get rid of nuclear weapons - these were her positions at the time, not the party's) to the conservatives; she was against Brexit until she was in favor of it, she wants to protect the working class by lowering taxes on companies, but thinks the UK workers are spoiled and should just work harder; she's convinced people who need assistance should get it, but that success is your own responsibility and if you're poor or sick, it's your own fault,....

She's against solar panels, against France, wants to kill the Brexit deal (well, "revisit the Northern Ireland Protocol" which is the exact same thing), for lowering taxes, lowering regulation, wants to wage a "war on woke", and intends to keep pushing back all immigrants to Rwanda (yes, also non-Rwandans). Oh, she's also in favor of more fracking to make the UK less energy dependent on others.

Even some of her supporters agree - she's incredibly ambitious, but her ambition exceeds her capabilities.

Yup, sounds like the perfect person to try and save the UK from the swamp it's stuck in right now because of Cameron and Johnson.

Sep 5, 2022#312

Tress

Bubble181 said:
She's against solar panels…. Oh, she's also in favor of more fracking to make the UK less energy dependent on others.

But… wouldn’t solar panels make the UK more energy independent? If that’s a goal for fracking, shouldn’t it make solar panels good too?

Sep 5, 2022#313

Bubble181

Tress said:
But… wouldn’t solar panels make the UK more energy independent? If that’s a goal for fracking, shouldn’t it make solar panels good too?

You're looking for logic where there is none.
Her entire policy throughout her career has been "spin to whatever position is most favorable at the moment".
She's been campaigning aiming only at the conservative party members who could vote in this internal election, and...solar panels and wind are Bad and Evil and More Oil is Good.

Go ask any Republican how they feel about "let's put more money into solar panel subsidies and build large solar farms in the desert" vs "let's drill up more oil and start fracking in another nature reserve", and most of them will agree with her on both points, I think.

Sep 5, 2022#314

mikerc

Tress said:
But… wouldn’t solar panels make the UK more energy independent? If that’s a goal for fracking, shouldn’t it make solar panels good too?

The "argument" she uses is that because farmers sometimes are paid money to put solar panels in their fields it's a waste of good British farmland. Which it's not - any land that's too arable you're not allowed to put solar panels on anyway! The farmers are taking money to put solar panels in fields that aren't suitable for growing crops!

Sep 16, 2022#315

Bubble181

While everyone's been distracted by ~~the English Museum publicly displaying one of their mummies~~ ~~the last respected British person with power having died~~ a 73-year-old starting a new career, the new PM has struck some laws to make fracking in inhabited areas legal again. Y'know, 'cause the government is for the people, by the people. Three large zones have been targeted, one of them in central Scotland. Which is fun and dandy since there are Scottish laws making it illegal.

Sep 26, 2022#316

@Li3n

PM Plans to Loosen Immigration Rules in Bid for Growth

Immigration rules are set to be loosened as part of Liz Truss's mission to boost growth.

www.bloomberg.com

Sep 26, 2022#317

GasBandit

@Li3n said:
PM Plans to Loosen Immigration Rules in Bid for Growth

Immigration rules are set to be loosened as part of Liz Truss's mission to boost growth.

www.bloomberg.com

If only there was some Europe-centered economic alliance they could have joined that would have facilitated such things, right?

Sep 26, 2022#318

Bubble181

GasBandit said:
If only there was some Europe-centered economic alliance they could have joined that would have facilitated such things, right?

They still feel the Commonwealth should send them their ~~darkest skinned~~ ~~least productive~~ best and brightest, I think.

Of course, there's also the matter of how the EU set limits to what you were allowed to do or demand of people wanting work visa. These temporary work visa really are "we load you on a cargo plane, drop you in the fields to harvest, herd you back on a plane and drop you back in Fuckoffistan". If you're lucky at least they drop you off in the same Fuckoffistan where you came from, but with the UK currently all bets are off on that front. The people being "returned" to Rwanda will agree.

Sep 26, 2022#319

@Li3n

GasBandit said:
If only there was some Europe-centered economic alliance they could have joined that would have facilitated such things, right?

As Bubble said, they had to treat them like actual humans there... now they can just use them as replaceable parts...

The funny thing is about all the idiots that though Brexit meant no more foreigners that Turk Er Jurbs.

Sep 26, 2022#320

GasBandit

I want you to know that tagging "agree" on one of your posts caused me physical pain.

Sep 27, 2022#321

Bubble181

There's something amazing about how Truss is handling things. Reminder: she was elected by 81.000 English conservative party members - rich old white men. Her party has been in power for 12 years, and the last elections were won on promises (cfr Brexit) of more money for the people, more money for healthcare, more money for investing in infrastructure, more money for schools. I mean, you'd almost think that's a left-wing programme, but Boris Johnson somehow made it work as slogans for the right.
Truss - with that same majority and no other claim to power - is now going for her vision: lower taxes for the rich, lower taxes for companies, less regulations on the financial market, smaller government, less investing in schools and helathcare, less social services. Thatcher-light. Or Thatcher-dark, I guess, because she's lowering the top tier of taxes to less than half of what it was under Thatcher.
The Pound is crashing, the markets are very nervous, even The Economist claims this is a horrible idea under the current circumstances (y'know, war, trading deficit, budget deficit, labor shortage, 15% inflation, and such fun stuff). She's leaning so far int othe hard-right neoliberal view that even the big corporations are afraid she's going too far.
There's chatter that there's already a petition circling among Conservative MPs to organize a vote of no confidence...but after Johnson's fall and given the currently absolutely disastrous polls (gosh, how come?), that's not going to happen.
This more-or-less unelected person will be left to lead the country off a cliff edge for two more years.
It's a shit show.
In some ways, I mean, it'll be an interesting experiment to see such a big country take such big gambles - if anyone on the right side of the USA cared a whit about what happens abroad, this would be great as an example of Republican policies in practice. But in so many other ways this is just disastrous. People will suffer and die and become poorer.

Sep 27, 2022#322

mikerc

Yup, banks & building societies in the UK are falling over themselves to announce that they won't offer any new mortgages for the foreseeable future because either they won't make money, or the rates will quickly rise to the point the borrower can't pay. Which means if you already have a mortgage you're fucked.

Not this sure would be worrying if we'd seen evidence in the past that a whole lot of people suddenly unable to pay their mortgages does bad things to a country's economy, hey?

Sep 27, 2022#323

Bubble181

mikerc said:
Yup, banks & building societies in the UK are falling over themselves to announce that they won't offer any new mortgages for the foreseeable future because either they won't make money, or the rates will quickly rise to the point the borrower can't pay. Which means if you already have a mortgage you're fucked.

Not this sure would be worrying if we'd seen evidence in the past that a whole lot of people suddenly unable to pay their mortgages does bad things to a country's economy, hey?

Ahh, but thanks to trickle down economics and importing slave labor, and out of the pesky EU who was always annoying the British National Bank annd reigning them in, this will all work out great! You'll see! Somehow.

Sep 27, 2022#324

@Li3n

GasBandit said:
I want you to know that tagging "agree" on one of your posts caused me physical pain.

So that's what that weird feeling of euphoria was....

Oct 10, 2022#325

@Li3n

Oct 19, 2022#326

mikerc

The 4 Great Offices of State in the UK are Prime Minister, Chancellor of the Exchequer, Home Secretary & Foreign Secretary. In her 43 days as PM Liz Truss has had to sack her Chancellor due to the economic panic his policies (massive borrowing, tax cuts for the rich) caused - even though everyone knew these were actually Truss's policies that she campaigned on.

Now her Home Secretary has resigned, 'because her emails' (yes, seriously). Unofficially everyone believes it's actually because even though she was handed the job to crack down on Immigration & deport as many refugees as possible to Rwanda - she said her dream was "I would love to have a front page of the Telegraph with a plane taking off to Rwanda" (actual real quote) - she was then told to scale her plans back to something the Government could actually achieve.

Also the Labour Party held a vote in Westminster to ban fracking in the UK. The Tories initially told MP's they would treat this as a vote of confidence in the PM - meaning if the Government lost Liz Truss would resign, but also that any Tory MP that didn't vote for the Government position would be expelled from the Conservative Party - and while they did win the vote they stated after that it wasn't a vote of confidence. Labour are now questioning how many MP's that voted against banning fracking would have voted the other way if they didn't believe it would have brought down the Government if it passed.

There were also scenes in the Commons of Conservative Party officials screaming at Tory MP's & physically manhandling them into the lobby to vote against the Labour motion.

People are actually starting to look back at the Boris Johnson Premiership as the good old days when politics were still normal!

Oct 20, 2022#327

mikerc

And Truss has resigned.

Oct 20, 2022#328

blotsfan

Shortest tenured prime minister in UK history and it’s not that close (previous shortest was over double the length and it was because he died).

Oct 20, 2022#329

ThatNickGuy

A head of lettuce lasted longer than her.

Oct 20, 2022#330

Bubble181

Just came to post this too.

Good riddance.

I guess we'll now get either Sunak or Hunt, and honestly, neither's any good either.
OR they could show faith in democracy, realize they've goofed up, and hold general elections in November. Which they would disastrously lose according to all polls, so that's not very likely :whistling:

Oct 20, 2022#331

ThatNickGuy

They should just give leadership over to King Charles.

Yeah, a monarchy isn't very democratic, but at this point, it's a better alternative to this mess.

(I'm 99% joking on this.)

Oct 20, 2022#332

blotsfan

Bubble181 said:
Just came to post this too.

Good riddance.

I guess we'll now get either Sunak or Hunt, and honestly, neither's any good either.
OR they could show faith in democracy, realize they've goofed up, and hold general elections in November. Which they would disastrously lose according to all polls, so that's not very likely

As many flaws as the US system has, the fact that the schedule of elections is up to the people in charge is one of the most astoundingly stupid things I’ve heard.

Oct 20, 2022#333

Bubble181

blotsfan said:
As many flaws as the US system has, the fact that the schedule of elections is up to the people in charge is one of the most astoundingly stupid things I’ve heard.

I dunno, that most states still put ~~gerrymandering~~ redistricting rules in the hands of politicians strikes me as just as batshit crazy.

Oct 20, 2022#334

chris

you could say they had less trust in her than with the former PM

Oct 20, 2022#335

@Li3n

blotsfan said:
As many flaws as the US system has, the fact that the schedule of elections is up to the people in charge is one of the most astoundingly stupid things I’ve heard.

I was under the impression that the election cycle is still fixed, but they can just call for new elections faster if they fail to actually make alliances to form a working government.

Oct 20, 2022#336

Bubble181

chris said:
you could say they had less Trusst in her than with the former PM

Oct 20, 2022#337

Piotyr

I feel like people are being too hard on Truss. She's the first PM to last two monarchs in a really long time.

Oct 20, 2022#338

bhamv3

Piotyr said:
I feel like people are being too hard on Truss. She's the first PM to last two monarchs in a really long time.

The last one to pull this off was, what, Churchill?

Oct 20, 2022#339

Bubble181

And Boris has already said he's considering himself as the best candidate to take over again.

Do these people seriously have ZERO self-awareness?

Oct 20, 2022#340

Celt Z

Bubble181 said:
Do these people seriously have ZERO self-awareness?

Evidently.

Oct 20, 2022#341

Sara_2814

ThatNickGuy said:
They should just give leadership over to King Charles.

Yeah, a monarchy isn't very democratic, but at this point, it's a better alternative to this mess.

(I'm 99% joking on this.)

I say the same thing about the US going back to the monarchy as an alternative to the idiots in charge now.

(I'm 95% joking.)

Oct 20, 2022#342

Bubble181

In a monarchy you at least occasionally, accidentally end up with decent leaders.
Two-party "democracy" always brings out the power hungry and sociopaths.

A more fractured democracy with a dozen parties definitely has its issues too - just look at Belgium to see - but I'm tempted to say that at least it provides a measure of protection from whatever the fuck it is going on in all the big "democracies" right now (cfr UK, US, France, Italy and others).

Oct 20, 2022#343

ThatNickGuy

Bubble181 said:
In a monarchy you at least occasionally, accidentally end up with decent leaders.
Two-party "democracy" always brings out the power hungry and sociopaths.

A more fractured democracy with a dozen parties definitely has its issues too - just look at Belgium to see - but I'm tempted to say that at least it provides a measure of protection from whatever the fuck it is going on in all the big "democracies" right now (cfr UK, US, France, Italy and others).

Canada is interesting for that, too. It's largely a two-party system with a battle between Liberal and Conservative. But there are three other minor, but significant parties: NDP, Green, and Bloc Québécois. What I find most interesting about that is two of those parties are Liberal minded (and in fact, lean even farther left than the Liberal party itself). Block Québécois is ostensibly Conservative, but have a number of left-leaning policies. They started as a splinter from the Conservative party.

But with Liberal, NDP, and Green combined, it's clear that Canada is largely more left leaning than right. On the one hand, it's too bad NDP and Green splinter those leftist votes, which wind up giving Conservatives more power as a result. On the other hand, I'm glad something like the NDP exist because they drag the Liberal party (sometimes kicking and screaming) away from its center politics comfort zone.

Oct 20, 2022#344

GasBandit

The real problem with the American system is that it bakes in the assumption that there are 2 parties, and we use first-past-the-post. The latter ensures that only the two big parties are ever viable, and the former grants too much power to whichever party has the majority. They get to pick all the committee assignments and stuff (which, it could be argued, is where the REAL legislative decisions are being made), and they just dole them out to whoever they like best without regard to merit, qualification, or service. So they end up being "rewards" for pleasing party membership, and/or as threats for something that can be taken away if you don't toe the party line.

Oct 20, 2022#345

MindDetective

An episode of The West Wing always sticks with me where the staffers are talking to representatives of a new country that want to copy the American constitution and they strongly recommend using a parliamentary system instead, as it will be more stable and less-prone to dictators taking over (or something like that).

Nov 3, 2022#346

PatrThom

Growing majority of Britons think Brexit was a mistake

...ya think?!

--Patrick

Nov 3, 2022#347

Bubble181

PatrThom said:
...ya think?!

--Patrick

Well, no, they didn't, that was kind of the point.

Nov 9, 2022#348

IronBrig4

The typical Leave voter was an unhealthy white pensioner with neither a university education nor a passport. These were people who felt left behind and apprehensive about what changing demographics would bring.

They also didn't consume much media over the Internet, which was probably the biggest difference between them and Trump voters.

Nov 24, 2022#349

@Li3n

UK net migration hits all-time record at 504,000

The rise is driven by non-EU students and people fleeing conflict and persecution in Hong Kong and Ukraine.

www.bbc.com

Jan 18, 2023#350

@Li3n

Jan 18, 2023#351

blotsfan

I can’t imagine the eu would let them keep their special statuses if they really do reapply.

Jan 18, 2023#352

PatrThom

blotsfan said:
I can’t imagine the eu would let them keep their special statuses if they really do reapply.

The episode of House where Dr. Foreman quits, goes to another hospital, gets fired there, and comes back to the original hospital comes to mind.

--Patrick

Feb 24, 2023#353

mikerc

Not Brexit, but British politics. Well Scottish politics. Nicola Sturgeon announced last week that she would be standing down as SNP leader & First Minister of Scotland. Nominations to replace her closed today with 3 people standing as candidates.

Ash Regan has never held a major job in politics and has a history of employees resigning and receiving large pay offs - if they sign an NDA. Nothing suspicious there then.

Humza Yousaf is the current health secretary and under his watch the Scottish NHS is widely considered to be in the worst state it has ever been in. The pandemic may take the blame for some of that but a lot of the issues predate it.

Kate Forbes started her campaigning for the job by announcing that had she been an MSP in 2014 when same-sex marriage was legalised she would have voted against it. She has accused people criticising her for this of being anti-Christian bigots, ignoring the fact that many of her loudest critics - like John Swinney - are themselves devout Christians.

One of these three people will be the next First Minister of Scotland. Fuck.

Feb 24, 2023#354

blotsfan

Well yeah but we all know the Scottish parliament is just a ceremonial thing. Not like a real country’s parliament.

Feb 24, 2023#355

Bubble181

Yeah, I'm not saying I was Sturgeon's greatest fan - far from it - but it seems nobody serious wanted to take over the job. I mean, there's very little glory to be gained there the coming 5-10 years, but you'd hope at least someone competent would be willing to try and at least keep things running.

Feb 24, 2023#356

mikerc

blotsfan said:
Well yeah but we all know the Scottish parliament is just a ceremonial thing. Not like a real country’s parliament.

You jest, but the closest analogy in the US would probably be a State Government. So populated by people who are either too incompetent to be in the actual government, or are unable/unwilling to pay a large enough bribe to their party to be the nominee in a "safe" district.

Feb 24, 2023#357

GasBandit

Feb 24, 2023#358

Bubble181

Well, not 100% true. We're seeing some of it in the forum of higher prices... But it's nowhere near as bad as in the UK where they're rationing and stuff.

Nov 13, 2023#359

mikerc

Right wing lunatic Suella Braverman has been sacked - for a second time - as UK Home Secretary. Not a surprise, she wrote a newspaper article trying to bully the police into banning pro-Palestine marches & even though the PM's Office needs to sign off on all newspaper articles by a cabinet minister - which they expressly refused to do here - she submitted it for publication anyway. This led to lots of discussion over when, not if, she would be sacked over the weekend.

This led to James Cleverley moving from Foreign Secretary to replace her as Home Secretary, and being replaced in turn as FS by David Cameron! Safe to say no-one saw that coming, particularly as he wasn't even in parliament & needed to be quickly given a Life Peerage to join the House of Lords before he was even eligible to be in the cabinet.

Nov 24, 2023#360

@Li3n

Meanwhile:

UK net migration in 2022 revised up to record 745,000

New figures show last year's net migration was far higher than previously thought, piling pressure on the PM.

www.bbc.com

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