Gas Bandit's Political Thread V: The Vampire Likes Bats

[Dave]

Which, of course, does not take into consideration as to HOW people utilize these places. Liquor stores you get in, get your stuff, & get out. Well, that's pretty much how you use ANY of the ones allowed. But churches? Let's all stand together and sing, which increases the rate of spread. Let's hold hands and pray, which increases the level of spread. Let's take fucking communion. There are so many reasons why religious gatherings are super spreader events and the court just conveniently ignored all of that because they are ideological nutjobs.

 

[Dave]

And in other Supreme Court news...we may be saying goodbye to more LGBTQ rights. Like, you know, the right to get have kids like any other human being in love.

Indiana asks Supreme Court to strip parental rights from gay couples & they may succeed - LGBTQ Nation

The United States Supreme Court is taking unusual steps that could start the unraveling of marriage equality.

www.lgbtqnation.com

 

[Bubble181]

Also, last I checked, the Bible explicitly says you don't need a church to hold a service. Heck, the Amish usually hold their gatherings outdoors. Neither shiites nor sunnites consider mosques essential for prayer or worship. The catholic church doesn't! Our archbishop closed our churches (except for weddings and funerals with restrictions on amount of people etc) before it was mandated.

Now, mind you, I don't understand why some of the others should stay open.
In Belgium we've also issued rulings saying shops that stay open can only sell what they're staying open for. Opticians for example can repair glasses, but not sell new ones. Supermarkets can sell food, but not household appliances. Etc.

 

[blotsfan]

Which, of course, does not take into consideration as to HOW people utilize these places. Liquor stores you get in, get your stuff, & get out. Well, that's pretty much how you use ANY of the ones allowed. But churches? Let's all stand together and sing, which increases the rate of spread. Let's hold hands and pray, which increases the level of spread. Let's take fucking communion. There are so many reasons why religious gatherings are super spreader events and the court just conveniently ignored all of that because they are ideological nutjobs.

Right. The only way I'd agree with him is if indoor concerts and sporting events were allowed with fans, which they aren't.

 

[jwhouk]

...uhh, about that:

 

[blotsfan]

Yes, Andrew Cuomo with his notorious iron grip over what happens in Texas.

 

[Frank]

Liquor stores are fucking essential you stupid mother fucker. Do you want the whole population of alcoholics going into the DTs all at once? You think hospitals can deal with that too?

 

[figmentPez]

Also, last I checked, the Bible explicitly says you don't need a church to hold a service.

It also doesn't say you need a large number.

I'll be bold and say that the "christians" who are most insistent about churches staying open are those who have no faith. If going through the act of a church service, in a specific place, surrounded by as many people as possible, repeating rote words in unison, is more important to someone than connecting to people on a personal level, talking about their lives, offering support to each other, and doing what is necessary to care for the good of all, then that person's religion is just an empty shell.

 

[PatrThom]

that person's religion is just an empty shell.

I might go further and suggest this is not about subservience to a higher power, it's just a fetish, i.e., "You need to do the same thing I am doing so I will feel more like it is the right thing to do."

--Patrick

 

[HCGLNS]

Liquor stores are fucking essential you stupid mother fucker. Do you want the whole population of alcoholics going into the DTs all at once? You think hospitals can deal with that too?

Well, that's been the opinion of most since the beginning. My friends in the ER were terrified of that possibility.

 

[PatrThom]

NRA says it's aware of 'significant diversion of its assets' in tax filing | CNN Politics

The National Rifle Association says in a tax filing that it became aware of a "significant diversion" of its assets in 2019 and previous years, and that its current president has paid back nearly $300,000 plus interest in funds for the expenses, according to the filings.

www.cnn.com

Who could possibly have seen this coming?

--Patrick

 

[BErt]

I guess the upside of this is that USA is still an acronym for “United States of Amazon”

 

[Frank]

I hate that cyberpunk was 100% correct and stuff like Star Trek was unbelievably wrong.

 

[BErt]

Hey look, more bullshit - incentivized drug overdoses

 

[Frank]

I hate that cyberpunk was 100% correct and stuff like Star Trek was unbelievably wrong.

 

[DarkAudit]

Poke poke poke...

 

[GasBandit]

Poke poke poke...

Libertarianism is for people who don't want another Donald Trump with EVEN MORE POWER

 

[Cog]

Isn't libertarianism based in that people will never act against their own best interests? What is a libertarian position about the pandemic, and health regulations?

 

[Krisken]

People always act against their best interests.

 

[PatrThom]

Isn't libertarianism based in that people will never act against their own best interests?

People frequently confuse "Liberal" and "Libertarian." They are not the same at all.
Liberal = The opposite of "Conservative." Believes governments should actively push for social/political change.
Libertarian = Believes that they should be able to live their life however they want without governmental interference, so long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. Wanna take drugs? Drive over the speed limit when the road's empty and the weather's good? Wear sandals with socks? Collect toenail clippings? Legalize sex work? You might be a Libertarian.

--Patrick

 

[Cog]

People frequently confuse "Liberal" and "Libertarian." They are not the same at all.
Liberal = The opposite of "Conservative." Believes governments should actively push for social/political change.
Libertarian = Believes that they should be able to live their life however they want without governmental interference, so long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. Wanna take drugs? Drive over the speed limit when the road's empty and the weather's good? Wear sandals with socks? Collect toenail clippings? You might be a Libertarian.

--Patrick

How do you define "as long it doesn't hurt anyone else"?

 

[GasBandit]

Basically it goes like this:

Republicans: We want more power so we can make sure the government is fiscally responsible and morality is enforced
51% of America: Ok, that sounds good
Republicans: Just kidding, thanks for electing us. We wanted more power so we could make ourselves rich and be evil and leave you all out in the cold.
51% of America: Oh no
Democrats: We want more power so we can make sure you're taken care of.
51% of America: Ok, that sounds good
Democrats: Thanks for electing us. We're going to take care of you, and by that we mean we're going to decide everything you can and can't do and exactly when and exactly for what reason and you don't need to make any decisions and you CERTAINLY don't need your constitutionally protected right to keep and bear arms. Why do you need anything when the government is here to provide for you? We are your mother. Your father. Your everything. Embrace the collective.
51% of America: Oh no
Libertarians: We want the government to have less power so this nonsense stops
97% of America: But if we all vote for you, we've wasted our vote!
Republicans and Democrats: Yeah, you'll waste your vote! We want more power.
97% of America: Ok, I guess we'll just keep doing that.

How do you define "as long it doesn't hurt anyone else"?

The right to swing my fist ends where your nose begins, is the commonly used phrase.

 

[Dave]

 

[PatrThom]

How do you define "as long it doesn't hurt anyone else"?

It's supposed to be a feedback loop. I get to do what I want, you get to do what you want, but where we overlap, we're both supposed to rein in our respective desires enough to avoid conflict because we're both rational adults.

--Patrick

 

[Dave]

Now that I've poked that bear let me explain.

Republicans is accurate but the democrat part is just absolute crap. Democrats want things like healthcare (THE HORROR!), regulations (because we know how good businesses police themselves), LGBTQ rights (because they are people), criminal justice reform (because right now it's broken bullshit), legalization of drugs (most agree on this), taxing the rich (you know, like we USED to), etc.

They haven't taken away guns (fear mongering) or anything else that first post alluded to.

And libertarians are short-sighted, to say the least. Not wearing a mask is a very libertarian thing and it's just fucking stupid.

 

[Cog]

It's supposed to be a feedback loop. I get to do what I want, you get to do what you want, but where we overlap, we're both supposed to rein in our respective desires enough to avoid conflict because we're both rational adults.

--Patrick

That is my point. Most people aren't rational adults. People refusing wearing mask can't see any consequences, so, in their eyes, they aren't doing anything wrong.

 

[GasBandit]

Now that I've poked that bear let me explain.

Republicans is accurate but the democrat part is just absolute crap. Democrats want things like healthcare (THE HORROR!), regulations (because we know how good businesses police themselves), LGBTQ rights (because they are people), criminal justice reform (because right now it's broken bullshit), legalization of drugs (most agree on this), taxing the rich (you know, like we USED to), etc.

They haven't taken away guns (fear mongering) or anything else that first post alluded to.

And libertarians are short-sighted, to say the least. Not wearing a mask is a very libertarian thing and it's just fucking stupid.

They haven't SUCCEEDED in it. yet. But they want to. One of the reasons Biden didn't take Texas was because he said he'd put Beto in charge of gun control, and one of the reasons Beto (narrowly) didn't beat Ted Cruz in his own race is because he got on stage and loudly proclaimed, in exactly these words, "Yes, I'm going to take away your AR-15s!"

The folly here is that however much power we give to democrats, if they don't abuse it themselves, it'll still be there waiting to be abused by Republicans when the pendulum swings the other way (as long as we continue to have FPTP voting).

Electing Libertarians just means the "power" needle starts decreasing instead of increasing... it doesn't mean instant anarchy. The government is a large, unwieldy beast, full of inertia.

 

[Dave]

Electing Libertarians just means the "power" needle starts decreasing instead of increasing... it doesn't mean instant anarchy. The government is a large, unwieldy beast, full of inertia.

Bull. Fucking. Shit.

You know how Trump put people in charge of offices that were put there essentially to dismantle them from the inside? Welcome to libertarian government. No regulations, no EPA, reverting back to the pollution of the 70's. Watch as big conglomerates do whatever they want.

Dude, Trump has been the most libertarian president we've ever had and it's disastrous. Voting libertarian is a stupid fucking thing to do and the candidates and voters are all nutballs.

 

[PatrThom]

That is my point. Most people aren't rational adults. People refusing wearing mask can't see any consequences, so, in their eyes, they aren't doing anything wrong.

I didn't say it would work across an entire population, I was just explaining the rationale.
In theory, it's great. But it assumes that the entire population will follow it equally. In reality, there will always be those rules lawyers who game whatever system is in place in order to maximize their own advantage.

The folly here is that however much power we give to democrats, if they don't abuse it themselves, it'll still be there waiting to be abused by Republicans when the pendulum swings the other way (as long as we continue to have FPTP voting).

The thing is, the only way to prevent parties from using that pendulum to beat each other over the head is to put in place measures which handicap ANY party in power. It's not just about FPtP, it's about Gerrymandering, tax rates, welfare, healthcare, and on and on.

--Patrick

 

[GasBandit]

Dude, Trump has been the most libertarian president we've ever had and it's disastrous. Voting libertarian is a stupid fucking thing to do and the candidates and voters are all nutballs.

No, Trump has been the most Authoritarian president we've ever had. Which is the polar opposite of Libertarian.
And all his power to do whatever he wanted, was first given to Obama so that he could do what was best for us.
And I called it back when it was happening, with those exact words. "Whatever power you give to Obama now, imagine what President Trump will do with it." Only I thought I was exaggerating, because NOBODY would elect Trump, right...? RIGHT?

Government that is powerful enough to give you everything you need, is powerful enough to take everything you have. That's the Libertarian screed.

 

[Cog]

I didn't say it would work across an entire population, I was just explaining the rationale.
In theory, it's great. But it assumes that the entire population will follow it equally. In reality, there will always be those rules lawyers who game whatever system is in place in order to maximize their own advantage.

--Patrick

That brings me to my original question. What is the libertarian answer to social responsibility?

 

[GasBandit]

That brings me to my original question. What is the libertarian answer to social responsibility?

A lot of people who claim to be libertarians don't understand that not wearing a mask is the same as not stopping your fist when it finds a nose.

And that's because there's stupid people in the libertarian camp, too.

 

[PatrThom]

because NOBODY would elect Trump, right...? RIGHT?

Well, a RATIONAL populace wouldn't...

That brings me to my original question. What is the libertarian answer to social responsibility?

Again, the Libertarian answer is simply that it is supposed to self-regulate through negative feedback. It shouldn't need governmental oversight because that feedback is supposed to cause it to reach equilibrium on its own. Most importantly, that equilibrium can vary, meaning that every system will reach its own equilibrium independent of the rest, which is why the idea of a government issuing one overarching set of rules is so distasteful to a Libertarian, since they believe one size most definitely does NOT fit everyone (and in fact can't EVER be crafted in such a way that it will fit everyone).

--Patrick

 

[Krisken]

As every political ideology has shown, ideals like that are great until people are involved. The left doesn't want rules because they want to control people, they want rules because we have been shown time and again we cannot trust people to do what is right.

 

[Dave]

Yeah, Trump was authoritarian as in he wanted to be the King, but the government during his tenure was very, VERY libertarian. You really think Trump had anything to do with the day-to-day workings of the government? Right. He'd have had to stop golfing for two seconds to let that happen. Trump was very laisse faire aside from the times when he executive ordered stupid shit because the last person who whispered in his ear said something.

EVERY AREA of government was headed by people whose sole purpose was to dismantle it and any regulatory protects for the American people. Which is SUPER libertarian. Public schooling? Nah. EPA? Nah. Post Office? Nah. IRS? Nah. FCC? Nah. I could go on. So yeah, TRUMP was authoritarian, but the government was a wild west of libertarian stupidity and nonesense.