Arwen saved the party from the naught. Eowyn killed the witch king. Maybe they didn't have huge parts in the books, but they did have pivotal roles to play, and not to show people elves struggle with their feelings or play the damsel in distress.
Hobbit: Battle of Five Armies
- Thread starter Mathias
- Start date
If I remember correctly, Arwen didn't do that in the book. That was added for the movie. She wasn't even mentioned until they got to Rivendell, and then it was two sentences.
If you want to cut out some really unnecessary extras, get rid of all the orc add-ons. The orcs should have been used like Chekhov's gun: they're mentioned in the first act, and then they go off in the third. All the extra orc parts didn't develop their characters at all and extended scenes that didn't need to be extended. We already spent 3 Lord of the Ring movies learning that orcs are evil. This didn't give us any new information.
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And I don't think it was a female elf, either. I know in the Ralph Bakshi animated LOTR it was Legolas (voiced by Anthony Daniels) that showed up to help them escape the Ringwraiths.
GasBandit
Staff member
In the book it was Glorfindel, who basically doesn't appear in the entire movie series that I'm aware.
No love for Glorfindel... 
Poor guy.
((Oops ninja'd by Gas))
I won't lose much words about the movies, they were decent enough and sometimes even good in parts, but Peter Jackson really doesn't know about 'sometimes less is more'.
And gosh how pitiful poor Fili was killed off.
I really could have lived without Tauriel and would have preferred the dwarves' demise like in the book.
"Fili and Kili had fallen defending him with shield and body, for he was their mothers elder brother." For me there is so much more in this sentence than in the whole drawn out fight scenes between Kili/Tauriel and Thorin with their respective CGI orcs (don't even care about them). *sigh*
Let alone Legolas...
Ah well, can't be changed. I don't hate the movies, but really don't like them. I will get the extended version and hope for more scenes that are worth watching; I loved all off Theodred's scenes in Two Towers.
Perhaps in the extended version we will also learn what happened to the Arkenstone.
"They buried Thorin deep beneath the Mountain, and Bard laid the Arkenstone upon his breast.
There let it lie till the Mountain falls! he said. May it bring good fortune to all his folk that dwell here after! Upon his tomb the Elvenking then laid Orcrist, the elvish sword that had been taken from Thorin in
captivity. It is said in songs that it gleamed ever in the dark if foes approached, and the fortress of the dwarves could not be taken by surprise."
'nuff said, carry on!
Poor guy.
((Oops ninja'd by Gas))
I won't lose much words about the movies, they were decent enough and sometimes even good in parts, but Peter Jackson really doesn't know about 'sometimes less is more'.
And gosh how pitiful poor Fili was killed off.
I really could have lived without Tauriel and would have preferred the dwarves' demise like in the book.
"Fili and Kili had fallen defending him with shield and body, for he was their mothers elder brother." For me there is so much more in this sentence than in the whole drawn out fight scenes between Kili/Tauriel and Thorin with their respective CGI orcs (don't even care about them). *sigh*
Let alone Legolas...
Ah well, can't be changed. I don't hate the movies, but really don't like them. I will get the extended version and hope for more scenes that are worth watching; I loved all off Theodred's scenes in Two Towers.
Perhaps in the extended version we will also learn what happened to the Arkenstone.
"They buried Thorin deep beneath the Mountain, and Bard laid the Arkenstone upon his breast.
There let it lie till the Mountain falls! he said. May it bring good fortune to all his folk that dwell here after! Upon his tomb the Elvenking then laid Orcrist, the elvish sword that had been taken from Thorin in
captivity. It is said in songs that it gleamed ever in the dark if foes approached, and the fortress of the dwarves could not be taken by surprise."
'nuff said, carry on!
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No love for Glorfindel...
Poor guy.
((Oops ninja'd by Gas))
Well coming back to Middle Earth after dying was too much like Gandalf's stick i guess. It was notihng but Revenant discrimination if you ask me.
Dave
Staff member
Yup. I originally put in schtick, but I got yelled at by spell check. So I looked and saw that while both are okay, shtick seems to be the default for dictionaries.
In any case, it's not stick.
Well, The Silmarillion Appendix XII discusses Gandalf's stick in great length.
The Silmarillion appendices discuss EVERYTHING at great length, regardless of importance or relevance.
GasBandit
Staff member
I'll bet it does, I'll bet. It. Does.
Yeah no, they didn't show up out of nowhere, the Goblin Town orcs sent a message to Bolg about Thorin trying to get his cave back... it was pretty well set up, while still being a surprise...[DOUBLEPOST=1421434353,1421434269][/DOUBLEPOST]
But he had a stick too... checkmate atheists...
I just saw the movie a second time and
They do establish the rams, when the Dwarves are marshalling up against the Elves there are about 4 ram riders which appear to be commanding officers infront of each file. I was specifically looking for them, as this point bothered me in my first viewing as well. They are there at the start of the battle. One thing though is that during their retreat to the doors of Erebor I could not spot the riders or rams but it was a short window of oppurtunity so I may have missed them.
Dave
Staff member
http://www.gameblogs.net/2015/01/19/fan-cuts-the-hobbit-into-a-single-4-hour-movie
I'm downloading it now, but it cuts a shitload of unnecessary crap out and is getting rave reviews for being the movie that should have been made. I probably won't watch it tonight as it's still 4 hours long, but tomorrow....?
I'm downloading it now, but it cuts a shitload of unnecessary crap out and is getting rave reviews for being the movie that should have been made. I probably won't watch it tonight as it's still 4 hours long, but tomorrow....?
I'll check it out on the weekend, the first point where I'll have four straight hours to kill. Thanks for posting about it.
Barrel sequence still has orcs in it. Tsk. It was doing so well for the first minute and a half or so, too. No orcs in sight in that whole chapter in the book.
There's only so much you can do and still have the movie make sense.
Prepped for weekend.
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Wife and I just got done watching the Tolken edit.
As someone who only watched the first movie, I didn't really notice the missing stuff until the end credits when I realized characters had been removed entirely. My wife hadn't watched any of The Hobbit movies and she thought this was a fun, solid story. At a couple points I'd tell her "we just skipped 20 minutes"--you really couldn't tell. It's not perfect. The video stutters some during the final movie's parts, likely because of the source to get that footage, and as mentioned, the orcs at the barrel scene still stick out in a dumb way. But as a single story, it flows really well and you'd be hard-pressed to notice that 3 and a half hours were removed.
I wish there was an official release for this version, because I'd totally buy it and recommend it.
As someone who only watched the first movie, I didn't really notice the missing stuff until the end credits when I realized characters had been removed entirely. My wife hadn't watched any of The Hobbit movies and she thought this was a fun, solid story. At a couple points I'd tell her "we just skipped 20 minutes"--you really couldn't tell. It's not perfect. The video stutters some during the final movie's parts, likely because of the source to get that footage, and as mentioned, the orcs at the barrel scene still stick out in a dumb way. But as a single story, it flows really well and you'd be hard-pressed to notice that 3 and a half hours were removed.
I wish there was an official release for this version, because I'd totally buy it and recommend it.
Finally saw it with Aussie. We've both read the book (or books if you want to count the LOTR series and Silmarillion) and still appreciated this movie.
Getting HD version now. I wouldn't mind burning it to a disc at some point, but now that I realize I can use my TV + laptop with the HDMI cords, that may be unnecessary.
You know who really needs to watch this version? Peter Jackson.
EDIT: There's a scene at the end of the first Hobbit where Thorin accepts Bilbo as a member of the company, a scene that's cut from the Tolken Edit for sensible reasons. Its absence actually makes things stronger later on though. The scene before the barrel ride where Bilbo can't convince the group to follow his plan, then gives Thorin a pleading look, and Thorin tells them to do what he says--that's a huge moment now. Sometimes less is more and this edit is a clear example of that.
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Someone also made a three hour edit that is supposedly truer to the book. Perhaps someone crazier more dedicated than I will watch both and compare.
Not me. I'm happy with the 4.5 hour cut.
Necronic
Staff member
Watched this tonight. This movie is so bad it actually makes me wonder about the LOTR movies. I don't know if he just stopped caring or what. Just a few issues I had:
1) when the elves jump over the dwarves schiltrom/shield wall. This is tactically fucking retarded, and you can see how stupid this is when the dwarves charge into the skirmish. Directly into the elves backs. I feel like they had to make an effort to show them NOT killing their friends.
2) the dwarves decide to fall back to the keep. The king, finally released from his dragon sickness, decides to help them, which turns the battle. Does he do this by having them fall back into the fortified keep? Nope. He adds 12 dwarves to a fight of hundreds/thousands. Which works. All of a sudden all the trolls just fall over dead. Not exaggerating. Because seriously, fuck it.
3) they decide to "cut the head off the snake" by chasing down the Orc warlord. By jumping on rams, which appear from nowhere. And no one has brought to the battle. Because, you know, fuck it.
4) and can we talk about their plan? I mean I get it. Revealing your small party of dwarves caused all the trolls to just die instantly, you guys are badass. But maybe. MAYBE. It's not a genious idea to charge your king at a numerically superior, fortified, enemy that is expecting you. But guess what? It works (sort of). Because fuck it.
I think a lot of my problem with the battles revolve around the orcs just being complete garbage at combat. 1 hobbit with a handful of stones kills like 5 of them. A little boy kills two of them. These are not the orcs from LOTR.[DOUBLEPOST=1422411294,1422411202][/DOUBLEPOST]Also can we just admit that eagles solve everything?
1) when the elves jump over the dwarves schiltrom/shield wall. This is tactically fucking retarded, and you can see how stupid this is when the dwarves charge into the skirmish. Directly into the elves backs. I feel like they had to make an effort to show them NOT killing their friends.
2) the dwarves decide to fall back to the keep. The king, finally released from his dragon sickness, decides to help them, which turns the battle. Does he do this by having them fall back into the fortified keep? Nope. He adds 12 dwarves to a fight of hundreds/thousands. Which works. All of a sudden all the trolls just fall over dead. Not exaggerating. Because seriously, fuck it.
3) they decide to "cut the head off the snake" by chasing down the Orc warlord. By jumping on rams, which appear from nowhere. And no one has brought to the battle. Because, you know, fuck it.
4) and can we talk about their plan? I mean I get it. Revealing your small party of dwarves caused all the trolls to just die instantly, you guys are badass. But maybe. MAYBE. It's not a genious idea to charge your king at a numerically superior, fortified, enemy that is expecting you. But guess what? It works (sort of). Because fuck it.
I think a lot of my problem with the battles revolve around the orcs just being complete garbage at combat. 1 hobbit with a handful of stones kills like 5 of them. A little boy kills two of them. These are not the orcs from LOTR.[DOUBLEPOST=1422411294,1422411202][/DOUBLEPOST]Also can we just admit that eagles solve everything?
One minor thing, The rams did not appear from nowhere, they are among the files of troops before the battle starts. However they were only visible in the shot overlooking the whole army which was a poor choice being that they were going to use them so dramatically later on.
The Trolls do get speared down, though I have no idea why they didn't get speared down during the strongest part of the battle. Was some Lucasesque logic there.
And "these aren't the Orcs from LOTR" is very much correct. These are, according to the book, pretty much "big goblins". Those in LOTR are Uruk-hai, especially bred for war and infused with magic to make them stronger, and well-prepared with an industrial machine behind them.
As for the 12 people turning the battle...Firstly, it's 14 (13 dwarves and a hobbit). Secondly, in the book, it's 500 orcs, one village of humans, and one company of elves. Yes, even so, 14 people won't really "turn the battle", but it's 14 people, decked out in super duper armor with shiny new weapons, coming out of nowhere, reinforcing an army of practically peasants with pitchforks, badly armored dwarves with hammers, and a few elves, who get reinvigorated by the sight. This wasn't actually a very big battle, it just sounds huge because the book's written from Bilbo's POV and he's retold the story a bit bigger every time. The movie...Well, I guess that's the 10,000th time he told the story
Tactically, yes, jumping over the spear wall made no sense whatsoever. Nor does then charging into the back of your allies.
In all, these shortcomings are really only such because PJ tries to make it all more "epic" and "grand" than it actuall is in the book. It isn't a huge clash of a mountain of orcs against a people. It's a skirmish of, in all the 5 armies combined, maybe 5.000 people and an equal number of beasts. (also, in the movie I thought it was Dwarves/Elves/Humans/Eagles vs Orcs, where it's actually Dwarves/Elves+Humans/Eagles vs Goblins/Wargs in the books. Clearly!)
As for the 12 people turning the battle...Firstly, it's 14 (13 dwarves and a hobbit). Secondly, in the book, it's 500 orcs, one village of humans, and one company of elves. Yes, even so, 14 people won't really "turn the battle", but it's 14 people, decked out in super duper armor with shiny new weapons, coming out of nowhere, reinforcing an army of practically peasants with pitchforks, badly armored dwarves with hammers, and a few elves, who get reinvigorated by the sight. This wasn't actually a very big battle, it just sounds huge because the book's written from Bilbo's POV and he's retold the story a bit bigger every time. The movie...Well, I guess that's the 10,000th time he told the story
Tactically, yes, jumping over the spear wall made no sense whatsoever. Nor does then charging into the back of your allies.
In all, these shortcomings are really only such because PJ tries to make it all more "epic" and "grand" than it actuall is in the book. It isn't a huge clash of a mountain of orcs against a people. It's a skirmish of, in all the 5 armies combined, maybe 5.000 people and an equal number of beasts. (also, in the movie I thought it was Dwarves/Elves/Humans/Eagles vs Orcs, where it's actually Dwarves/Elves+Humans/Eagles vs Goblins/Wargs in the books. Clearly!)