Which is not necessarily the same thing as "pro-choice," something I feel I have to point out since anti-choice people don't seem to get that.Shegokigo said:
- Status
M
makare
how is anti-choice not the same as pro-life? there are people who don't think women should have a choice just to be contrary?stienman said:
Excellent attempt at being obnoxious though. nice one.
Yeah, I'm sorry, you fail at that argument and even my anti-choice friend with whom I've had a long and interesting discussion about this concedes that point. Anti-choice means "Women should not have the choice to do this because it's wrong." That's anti-abortion, my friend, or as you call yourselves, "pro-life."makare1 said:
I was making a point about Zen's broad paintbrush generalizations. I'm not interested in actually engaging in a discussion on abortion - it's pointless. Neither of us are going to change our views, and it's unlikely that we'll learn anything new from one another on the subject.makare1 said:
Besides, you are an excellent devil's advocate, and you could, if you so chose, adequately defend those statements against your own attacks if you were really interested in considering why a person might think that.
-Adam
M
makare
stienman said:
Whether you are willing to discuss abortion or not you should at least understand the terms related to the issue and how they relate to each other.
I don't have a uterus, so I don't feel I can really say much here.... but I'm pro choice. Mostly because I know too many 17 year olds with kids, and I can't say what I'd do in that situation.
The uterus comment reminded me of this.General Fuzzy McBitty said:
[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16qScwsNiC4:3axqzkgz][/youtube:3axqzkgz]
M
makare
Well obviously you don't because you think that pro-choice is the same as pro-abortion when it isn't and you don't think that pro-life is the same as anti-choice when it is. So failure of understanding is yours. Unless you were just saying that to try and bother Zen in which case your problem is bigger than lack of understanding.stienman said:
You need to re-read the whole conversation in context.makare1 said:
I didn't say that pro-choice and pro-abortion were the same. I believe they are different, just as zenmonkey and you do.
I said that broad generalizations such as the one Zen made (ie, referring to the idea that no anti-choice person can tell the difference) were inappropriate, and if she can do that I would go ahead and engage in broad generalizations as well - painting all pro-abortion/pro-choice folk with the same brush despite there being a difference and there being many to whom the generalization doesn't apply.
Pro-life and anti choice, however CAN be interpreted differently, a point which you disagree with.
-Adam
M
makare
Well explain it then. I cannot think of a way that a person can be anti-choice while not being pro-life.stienman said:
M
makare
OOOOK then, I will just go on believing that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, more evidence to support that anyway.stienman said:
M
makare
Well, that explains your happy go lucky attitude towards life in general and annoying people on the forum.stienman said:
Sigh. And here I thought that Adam would man up for once.stienman said:
Well, here's my interpretation. Anti-abortion is merely a subset of the pro-life philosophy.
Pro-life does not just apply to abortion, but to capital punishment and a set of moral situations. Death brings no one back, and pro-life does not seek to extend the killcount.
A death penalty is too good for murderers, really. They should be cracking rocks in high security prisons for the rest of their lives, or construction work, or just something useful at all. Instead, they get a nice, quick and painful death. Furthermore, there are plenty of people in prison who are listed on the death row and die of old age in prison due to the red tape involved in executions.
S
Steven Soderburgin
So what would I be? I'm 100% anti-capital punishment and absolutely pro-choice. I think the gag rule is horrible and results in many women getting substandard care or not being able to get care at all, and so I completely support Obama's order to reverse it. Am I pro-life or pro-choice?Futureking said:
Basically my point with this post is to point out how stupid this semantics argument is because it's only about ridiculous labels and doesn't actually address the issue. In general, pro-life and pro-abortion are misnomers. Anti-choice and pro-choice are much more accurate, though obviously far too broad and ambiguous to really describe someone's complete view. But if someone says, "I am pro-choice and you are anti-choice," it's pretty easy to figure out what they mean.
So let's stop arguing about labels and start discussing the actual issue.
But those are the kinds of jeans a clown would wear.Shegokigo said:
Z
zero
Well, sure, but so what? It is not because some anti-abortion groups take unreasonable positions that the criminalization of the abortion is itself unreasonable.makare1 said:
As said GasBandit, it is not absurd for the law consider differences between born and unborn children, just like it considers the differences between children and adults. Obviously, his reasoning pro-abortion falls apart quickly when he fails to provide the link of different => less life protection (actually, if one were to follow his comparison to the letter, it is difficult not to notice that children have MORE protection from the law than adults... whatever that would imply for the unborn is of course subject to extrapolations...).
As such, to cause abortion may be very well considered something different from homicide, and still remain a crime. In fact, as I said, in Brazil, "to allow someone to cause abortion on yourself" carries a MUCH lighter penalty than homicide, 1 to 3 years of "detention". Now, "detention" on the Brazilian penal code is a "soft" penalty, (women who have abortion are NOT sent to jail in Brazil, nor they are stoned to death), usually followed in a "open regime", which in practice means the sentence is more moral than anything.
So, again, let's not confuse the things... Abortion is not murder, sure, we agree on that... but that doesn't means it should not be criminalized.
God, no, let's not.Kissinger said:
ElJuski
Staff member
Stien, your "ignorance is bliss" bit really disappointed me. I was hoping somebody out there would be able to change my mind, but apparently all the opposition can do is say "lalalalalala." Come on, man.
As it stands, I think Obama did a great thing with all of this. And, if it hasn't been pounded in people's brains enough, a woman having the right to have an abortion does not mean that I totally want all babies to get stabbed with coathangers, and that you should be able to get abortions at Wal-Mart. Just because restrictions are lifted it doesn't mean that people are going to have an abortion free for all. If you have morals, you will continue to have morals. Implications will continue to have implications.
But women will have that much more power and ability over their body, especially in all those nasty little cases of rape, etc etc.
As it stands, I think Obama did a great thing with all of this. And, if it hasn't been pounded in people's brains enough, a woman having the right to have an abortion does not mean that I totally want all babies to get stabbed with coathangers, and that you should be able to get abortions at Wal-Mart. Just because restrictions are lifted it doesn't mean that people are going to have an abortion free for all. If you have morals, you will continue to have morals. Implications will continue to have implications.
But women will have that much more power and ability over their body, especially in all those nasty little cases of rape, etc etc.
I
Iaculus
To be fair, he was up against makare. That was probably the best option available.ElJuski said:
Quoted For Truth.Iaculus said:
S
SeraRelm
Quoted ForFutureking said:
S
Scarlet Varlet
From SNL, Season 3, Episode 18
Wish I could find this on YouTube, but search brings up other shit not even close to what I look for.
It's nice to remember they were edgy and hilarious once.Scarlet Varlet said:
I am fine with being labeling anti-choice if you like but only as long as you understand the choice I am against. I don't think people should have the right to choose to kill a child just like I don't think you should have the right to choose to shoot the gas station attendant and take his money.
- Status