Amy said:
I've read your posts, and aside from taking a Big Brother right-think "easy on the ____'s" stance you havent really been clear on anything but the criminalization of induced abortion. (not that THAT implies anything, oh no)
Well, people WERE discussing semantics... If you think that's pointless, ok, feel free to ignore it.
Amy said:
And you made a sketchy generalization and got bitchy at me when I asked for proof.
Hm, you really think it is a sketchy generalization to say that most people would not give up their life... so you ARE "for real"
My excuses in this case, I mistook you for some troll (but heck, I must say it was quite an easy mistake to make...). Well, I must direct you to my answer to JCM's post... particularly...
Zero said:
When I point that suicide rates tend to be HIGHER on countries with abortion. Again (and sadly this seems to be a necessary precaution on this thread), I do NOT claim any causal nexus between those two factors... but that surely do not endorse the "unwanted children would rather be dead" thesis.
Amy said:
Then you took issue with the bonobo post. I didn't bring the argument to your table.
And I never claimed you did! So what? I can't offer you a different view from yours?
Amy said:
Don't presume that I was arguing your nonpoints specifically, you were just the foil for the questions I pose to those who support ya know, making abortion illegal.
Again, I never supposed you were disagreeing with me... See Amy, what's happened is that I disagreed with you... It happens, nothing personal...
Amy said:
If that's not your position man up and say so. State your point, argue your point, and try prove it, or fuck off.
Well Amy, not that I really feel compelled by your nice "...or fuck off", nor I think you have been very successful on providing "proof" for your points, but my position, (thanks for asking) is stated right in my first post... may I quote it? Allow me to:
Zero said:
(...)I had no answer back then... I still don't...
I should perhaps expand it a bit...
First of all, a bit of a disclaimer... I AM a male, no uterus here, absolutely no capacity to bear children. Also, I AM Catholic, pope über alles and stuff... If any of those changes your mind about being interested on my position on abortion, again, feel free to skip the remaining of the post. If you keep reading, I promise I will try my best to factor out my religion (which is quite difficult) and my gender (almost impossible, alas, but as I pointed out previously, is not like us guys have absolutely no saying in this matter... more on that latter).
To forbid by force a woman to have an abortion is effectively to enslave such woman's body for nine months, which is a terrible, awful, abominable think to do.
The question of legalizing abortion for me is whether this is more or less terrible than terminating the life of the fetus.
That's for me a very difficult question. I tend to have a very deep reverence for life, even the incipient life of a fetus (don't assume this is catholic stuff, actually, the glorification of martyrdom shows that life is not above all for the catholic religion), so I tend to lean a bit on the side of "yes, to unwillingly bear a children for nine months it is an awful sacrifice, but if the price is a fetus life, then so be it" (noting that I, as a male, will NEVER be able to make such sacrifice).
Of course, the question is far from being settled to me. I DO think there are exceptions.
For instance, if the mother's life is in risk, then certainly my aversion to abortion in order to protect life is very weakened, though from a purely pragmatical biological perspective, it makes more sense to protect the children's life than the mother's... But then, to force someone to put their life at risk their life for an unwanted children is certainly too much, and I cannot be against abortion in this case.
Also, in case of rape, while the fetus life life shouldn't be worth less than any other fetus, I don't think a woman should be forced to bear the children of such awful act. (There's another huge debate here... If the lust of a rapist is derived from its biological imperative to reproduce, it makes a sense to cut such imperative... but that would lead to the conclusion that a rape fetus life is worth less... I really really really don't want to go there...).
As for incest, unless you are really concerned with the genetic load of the human race (anyone who raised race dogs knows that incest breeds are crap, but then again, that would lead us to the touchy question of some lives being worth less), I don't see why that should be an exception (but it is on many countries).
So, to summarize, except for a few exceptions, if a woman has consensual sex, and have a child as a fruit of such relation, I DO think they should be
forced (emphasis to show I'm aware of how serious this is) to carry the child for nine months. Don't want the child after? Give it to adoption, place it under government foster. Odds are the child won't have a wonderful life, but also, odds are the child will be grateful for it.
Again, I'm a guy, so it feels wrong to ask someone to do a sacrifice I will never be able to do. I completely agree with fathers who refuse to provide for their child to be sent to jail (indeed, Brazilian law provides exactly this... just don't expect it to be fully applied on the most miserable parts of the country...), but of course, this is nowhere near the same of having an unwanted being growing in your womb. I've been on the "heck, just let the women decide" side for a long time, until someone asked me what would I do if a woman pregnant with my child wanted to have an abortion. That's perhaps a bit egoistical, I should probably be concerned with all children, not just an hypothetical mine, but that's what got me thinking that perhaps I should have some legal way to enforce such woman to bear my child until birth... (also that I should get more serious with contraception)... Yes, it is unfair that woman have to bear the bulk of the responsibility for a child's life, I defend firmly state-sponsored work licenses for pregnant women, I think the father should be forced (under menace of prison) to care for the woman until the child is born (and of course, to care for the children afterwards), but that's about what men are able to do... To carry the child on the womb is on the woman...
Anyway... that's about my opinion... A few notes... I don't think abortion should be equated to "murder"... it is the termination of a fetus life, but it is also the expression of a woman's will over her own body.
Also, (in case you haven't noticed) I firmly refute the argument of "it is better to kill the child in the womb than let it live in this world of pain"-like arguments... Yes, you do have the occasional suicidal, very sad, but the vast majority of the born people, even those who live in misery, want to keep living.
Not to mention the "abortion is population management" argument. Nativity control is a VERY controversial theme (yes, even from the economics point of view), but there are much more effective ways to implement it.
Where you can get me:
- Is a fetus life so important? The life of a barely conscious being is enough to enslave a woman for nine months? I'm sensible to that kind of argument, and you won't see me easily refuting those here... So far, I do feel that yes, it is more terrible to kill the fetus than enslave the woman... but I admit it is a subjective position... not backed by direct facts nor logic (then again, I'm thinking you won't provide me direct facts to contradict it...)
- Meh, you're a guy, who are you to say to woman what they're supposed to do? That one also is a touchy one, though I think it is a bit unfair... what if the arguments above were presented by a woman (because I do know a few women who think like I do)? As I said, at least in the case when I'm the father, I should have a saying on the child's life or death... Of course, if you want to dismiss my opinions because of my gender, please, be my guest...
To end it, I do understand many on the legalization field. I won't call "omg you murderer" on a woman who had an abortion... In fact, I DO know woman who aborted, heck, I personally know Medics who (illegally!) performed abortions. I would never denounce them to the justice, nor do I personally condemn them. Despite what you've been lead to believe, there IS place for middle ground on this issue.