Yeah, this thread has been one hell of a rollercoaster. Not to mention the resulting PMs. (Yes, I meant "private messages.")Espy said:
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JCM
I just got bored of the whole "fetus murder" bit, and decided to show that to blaber about saving a fetus without thinking of the situation (like today's society where a repeat rapist can still get out of prison and rape again), all pro-lifers are doing are making a poor PETA impression.Espy said:
Anyway, it killed the "baby murderers!" chant, mission accomplished.
ZenMonkey said:
Amen. Its easy to call a woman who wants to abort a killer, as if she was some uterus life support system without caring about the rest of her life, and its easy for me to behave like them and call all pro-lifers idiotic chauvinists with PETA-like intellect.
Make sure that NEVER will a man be able to cause an unwanted pregnancy upon a woman, and i'll agree that abortion is murder, because destroying a woman's life and plans for an orgasm should be too. Or we can let the woman decide.
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Iaculus
I think that chant died down several pages ago. Hence the bewilderment.JCM said:
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JCM
You must have been reading the wrong thread, up to last page, people were still debating "murder". Hence my bewilderment. :slywink:Iaculus said:
You confuse debating the issue of "murder" rationally with something else apparently. Despite you not liking it being a central issues to the bigger issue it still is to many, and it's going to come up in a thread on the subject. It doesn't mean you can't say "Hay guys, I would prefer we talked about the discussion on 'this' level rather than the 'murder' level" but what you can't do is just paint everyone as mother-hating murder chanting bigots of a sort just because they want to discuss something different than you do, hell half the people discussing it are on your side.JCM said:
Or maybe you can. :aaahhh:
Anyway, the discussion is getting a little to "meta" now, which while fun, really doesn't lend itself to continuing the debate. Anyone wanna get us back on track or are we done here? Agree to disagree sort of thing?
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JCM
True Krisken, but then as usual, every therad on abortion the issue is taken away from what it is, the right of a woman, by the religious nuts/PETA-like moral crowd, to a debate on murder.
Sadly, the internet is like this.
Heck, I can have a "rational" discussion on whether I am god, but it would be just as stupid, and as far as the selfish idiots who dont give a shit about women blabber about " murder", I´ll be here to call them like they are.
Sadly, the internet is like this.
For a man in a society like today which leaves raped women and single moms to raise kids alone to call it murder, or even discuss it, is utterly idiotic.Espy said:
Heck, I can have a "rational" discussion on whether I am god, but it would be just as stupid, and as far as the selfish idiots who dont give a shit about women blabber about " murder", I´ll be here to call them like they are.
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zero
Now see Troll? That's how you do it.
I think there has been some of that, what was interesting and kind of exciting to see was people saying, "Hey, I don't understand where your side is coming from: Explain it to me so I understand it and help me see where we actually differ". We need more of that rather than simply throwing everyone who doesn't agree with you under the bus with ad hominem, petty generalizations and angry outbursts.Krisken said:
You know? I'm actually sick of explaining "my side" so that "the other side" will understand it. Unless you're a frakking bonobo I think you can read and figure out what's being said.
I could compromise and say I'd be willing to let every unwanted child be born if the people who demand they be born take them home with them. Prove that you want that child, because clearly if a mother gives birth to a baby she'd rather abort no amount of legislation is going to make her want the child, and that child will suffer for it.
Yes, that child will be alive, but it will most likely live through a childhood unloved and unwanted, because again, pro lifers aren't doing their part to adopt every unwanted child born into this world. You want that child to live? Good, prove it by adopting a child and giving it a life worth living. Because otherwise, all you're doing is
encouraging the suffering of unwanted kids.
Pro life? prove it. Adopt a child, and ensure no child EVER feels unwanted. Can't do that? Let a woman make a decision for her life, and prevent suffering for unwanted children.
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3402502.html
I could compromise and say I'd be willing to let every unwanted child be born if the people who demand they be born take them home with them. Prove that you want that child, because clearly if a mother gives birth to a baby she'd rather abort no amount of legislation is going to make her want the child, and that child will suffer for it.
Yes, that child will be alive, but it will most likely live through a childhood unloved and unwanted, because again, pro lifers aren't doing their part to adopt every unwanted child born into this world. You want that child to live? Good, prove it by adopting a child and giving it a life worth living. Because otherwise, all you're doing is
encouraging the suffering of unwanted kids.
Pro life? prove it. Adopt a child, and ensure no child EVER feels unwanted. Can't do that? Let a woman make a decision for her life, and prevent suffering for unwanted children.
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3402502.html
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zero
Again, easy on the "unwanted children". I've known unwanted children, beaten, raped and abandoned by their parents... If you went to one of them, pulled a .38 on their face and said "Here kid, let me put you out of your misery", they would run away screaming for their lives.
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zero
Nope, never adopted (single guy getting an adoption in Brazil is highly unlikely, anyway), just did voluntary work with them (Homeless children living on a government shelter). Amazingly merry children, given the circumstances.Amy said:
I'm pointing that the argument of "to be an unwanted children is such a terrible thing that it is better to not live at all" is not necessarily true.
Yeah, and you're missing my point, the point being that there are hundreds of thousands of kids we already can't adequately take care of living and breathing on this earth, (you acknowledge that you can't take care of even one,) but you want to stop women from making sure more aren't brought into this world to suffer? Murder or not, there aren't enough people who want to adequately raise and care for the children that ARE here, and you want to add more to that problem?
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Kitty Sinatra
I don't think there is that sort of problem. I think even a shitty life is better than no life.
Great. Go tell that to the kids who are living that shitty life. " Hey, kids at least you aren't DEAD!" I'm sure they'll feel loads better about being unwanted.Gruebeard said:
Or you know, console yourself that you have kept to your morals, nevermind that it's some else's problem. Why should your support for impeding on the choices a woman makes about her own body, (in essence, reducing her to a uterus life support system) affect you at all?
"Fuck, that's wrong, but I'm just pointing that out, don't expect me to you know, help out or anything."
Yeah
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Kitty Sinatra
Hey me! At least I'm not dead.Amy said:
Okay, one down approximately 6 billion to go. This is gonna be a long day. :bush:
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Iaculus
Having a whole bunch of kids who the system can't really support, though, can be very damaging for a society. There's some give, but it's very finite.Gruebeard said:
Remember I mentioned Ceaucescu-era Romania earlier in the thread?
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Hm, let's see about that...Amy said:
Oh, have I? I'm unsure of that. Anyway, for your argument's sake, I'll go on with it...Amy said:
Ah? Excuse me? Do I? How so? Have I claimed to be against contraceptives? Heck, have I claimed to be against ABORTION?Amy said:
Ah! I understand your problem now... you are OBVIOUSLY not reading my posts on this thread... Fair enough, I don't claim to be a particularly interesting witter, but here's an advice: It helps a lot to read a person's wittings if you want to infer his opinions...Amy said:
Again, do I? But I'm wondering... do you think the children who weren't "adequately raised" after your perceptions would be better dead? Or an even easier question, forget about them... do you think WE would be better without those "inadequately raised" children? As I said, I've worked with unwanted children, and I can't agree with that...Amy said:
I've read your posts, and aside from taking a Big Brother right-think "easy on the ____'s" stance you havent really been clear on anything but the criminalization of induced abortion. (not that THAT implies anything, oh no) And you made a sketchy generalization and got bitchy at me when I asked for proof.
Then you took issue with the bonobo post. I didn't bring the argument to your table.
Don't presume that I was arguing your nonpoints specifically, you were just the foil for the questions I pose to those who support ya know, making abortion illegal. If that's not your position man up and say so. State your point, argue your point, and try prove it, or fuck off.
Then you took issue with the bonobo post. I didn't bring the argument to your table.
Don't presume that I was arguing your nonpoints specifically, you were just the foil for the questions I pose to those who support ya know, making abortion illegal. If that's not your position man up and say so. State your point, argue your point, and try prove it, or fuck off.
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lafftaff
Time to get my hands dirty...
When it comes to the actual funding I'm generally against federal funding for international groups. That money could be spent at home. But I'm sure there's more to it than I understand.
When it comes to abortion itself I'm Pro-Choice. That simply means I believe it's a women's body and it's her right and choice of what to do to it
To me, it's not so much the issue of murder but the issue of when does life "begin". The fact is is that abortion is destroying something that has the potential to be a living human being. At what stage does abortion really become murder? In my head it's abortions up to the end of the 4th month. I have no real basis for that, I arbitrarily chose it. How do you define the begnning of life?
Abortion shouldn't be limited to certain cases. Why should some people get it and others not? "She was raped, so abortion for her.You may not be able to support the child in any way, but hey, you had sex so you have to face the consequences." People are quick to judge but they don't understand what it's like to be that scared, lonely woman. There are so many reasons: no father, unaffordable, not ready, wasn't planned, you're already rasing your 17 yr. olds kid and you can't afford to raise the child of your now pregnant 14 yr. old. Unless the Pro-Lifers are going to willfully raise or help support these unwanted children, they need to stay out of it.
It's hard to argue the "aren't you glad you're alive point." They're happy now that they're alive, but if they were aborted it wouldn't matter. They wouldn't exist. I enjoy my life, but if had been aborted then oh well. Maybe my mother would've gone on to have an even better child. Who knows? It's hard to argue something after the fact.
Sorry if this is a little rambling, it's just my two cents.
When it comes to the actual funding I'm generally against federal funding for international groups. That money could be spent at home. But I'm sure there's more to it than I understand.
When it comes to abortion itself I'm Pro-Choice. That simply means I believe it's a women's body and it's her right and choice of what to do to it
To me, it's not so much the issue of murder but the issue of when does life "begin". The fact is is that abortion is destroying something that has the potential to be a living human being. At what stage does abortion really become murder? In my head it's abortions up to the end of the 4th month. I have no real basis for that, I arbitrarily chose it. How do you define the begnning of life?
Abortion shouldn't be limited to certain cases. Why should some people get it and others not? "She was raped, so abortion for her.You may not be able to support the child in any way, but hey, you had sex so you have to face the consequences." People are quick to judge but they don't understand what it's like to be that scared, lonely woman. There are so many reasons: no father, unaffordable, not ready, wasn't planned, you're already rasing your 17 yr. olds kid and you can't afford to raise the child of your now pregnant 14 yr. old. Unless the Pro-Lifers are going to willfully raise or help support these unwanted children, they need to stay out of it.
It's hard to argue the "aren't you glad you're alive point." They're happy now that they're alive, but if they were aborted it wouldn't matter. They wouldn't exist. I enjoy my life, but if had been aborted then oh well. Maybe my mother would've gone on to have an even better child. Who knows? It's hard to argue something after the fact.
Sorry if this is a little rambling, it's just my two cents.
Good news on that front, but not talking about it, (for the totally rational fear of jinxing it)SeraRelm said:
related but not, bureaucrats suck
~edited to add that any replies will most likely not responded to today as I must get going and stop dicking around waiting for slow ass typists to reply. <--- you take offense at that, it means you're a slow ass typist.
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Well, people WERE discussing semantics... If you think that's pointless, ok, feel free to ignore it.Amy said:
Hm, you really think it is a sketchy generalization to say that most people would not give up their life... so you ARE "for real"Amy said:
My excuses in this case, I mistook you for some troll (but heck, I must say it was quite an easy mistake to make...). Well, I must direct you to my answer to JCM's post... particularly...
When I point that suicide rates tend to be HIGHER on countries with abortion. Again (and sadly this seems to be a necessary precaution on this thread), I do NOT claim any causal nexus between those two factors... but that surely do not endorse the "unwanted children would rather be dead" thesis.Zero said:
And I never claimed you did! So what? I can't offer you a different view from yours?Amy said:
Again, I never supposed you were disagreeing with me... See Amy, what's happened is that I disagreed with you... It happens, nothing personal...Amy said:
Well Amy, not that I really feel compelled by your nice "...or fuck off", nor I think you have been very successful on providing "proof" for your points, but my position, (thanks for asking) is stated right in my first post... may I quote it? Allow me to:Amy said:
I should perhaps expand it a bit...Zero said:
First of all, a bit of a disclaimer... I AM a male, no uterus here, absolutely no capacity to bear children. Also, I AM Catholic, pope über alles and stuff... If any of those changes your mind about being interested on my position on abortion, again, feel free to skip the remaining of the post. If you keep reading, I promise I will try my best to factor out my religion (which is quite difficult) and my gender (almost impossible, alas, but as I pointed out previously, is not like us guys have absolutely no saying in this matter... more on that latter).
To forbid by force a woman to have an abortion is effectively to enslave such woman's body for nine months, which is a terrible, awful, abominable think to do.
The question of legalizing abortion for me is whether this is more or less terrible than terminating the life of the fetus.
That's for me a very difficult question. I tend to have a very deep reverence for life, even the incipient life of a fetus (don't assume this is catholic stuff, actually, the glorification of martyrdom shows that life is not above all for the catholic religion), so I tend to lean a bit on the side of "yes, to unwillingly bear a children for nine months it is an awful sacrifice, but if the price is a fetus life, then so be it" (noting that I, as a male, will NEVER be able to make such sacrifice).
Of course, the question is far from being settled to me. I DO think there are exceptions.
For instance, if the mother's life is in risk, then certainly my aversion to abortion in order to protect life is very weakened, though from a purely pragmatical biological perspective, it makes more sense to protect the children's life than the mother's... But then, to force someone to put their life at risk their life for an unwanted children is certainly too much, and I cannot be against abortion in this case.
Also, in case of rape, while the fetus life life shouldn't be worth less than any other fetus, I don't think a woman should be forced to bear the children of such awful act. (There's another huge debate here... If the lust of a rapist is derived from its biological imperative to reproduce, it makes a sense to cut such imperative... but that would lead to the conclusion that a rape fetus life is worth less... I really really really don't want to go there...).
As for incest, unless you are really concerned with the genetic load of the human race (anyone who raised race dogs knows that incest breeds are crap, but then again, that would lead us to the touchy question of some lives being worth less), I don't see why that should be an exception (but it is on many countries).
So, to summarize, except for a few exceptions, if a woman has consensual sex, and have a child as a fruit of such relation, I DO think they should be forced (emphasis to show I'm aware of how serious this is) to carry the child for nine months. Don't want the child after? Give it to adoption, place it under government foster. Odds are the child won't have a wonderful life, but also, odds are the child will be grateful for it.
Again, I'm a guy, so it feels wrong to ask someone to do a sacrifice I will never be able to do. I completely agree with fathers who refuse to provide for their child to be sent to jail (indeed, Brazilian law provides exactly this... just don't expect it to be fully applied on the most miserable parts of the country...), but of course, this is nowhere near the same of having an unwanted being growing in your womb. I've been on the "heck, just let the women decide" side for a long time, until someone asked me what would I do if a woman pregnant with my child wanted to have an abortion. That's perhaps a bit egoistical, I should probably be concerned with all children, not just an hypothetical mine, but that's what got me thinking that perhaps I should have some legal way to enforce such woman to bear my child until birth... (also that I should get more serious with contraception)... Yes, it is unfair that woman have to bear the bulk of the responsibility for a child's life, I defend firmly state-sponsored work licenses for pregnant women, I think the father should be forced (under menace of prison) to care for the woman until the child is born (and of course, to care for the children afterwards), but that's about what men are able to do... To carry the child on the womb is on the woman...
Anyway... that's about my opinion... A few notes... I don't think abortion should be equated to "murder"... it is the termination of a fetus life, but it is also the expression of a woman's will over her own body.
Also, (in case you haven't noticed) I firmly refute the argument of "it is better to kill the child in the womb than let it live in this world of pain"-like arguments... Yes, you do have the occasional suicidal, very sad, but the vast majority of the born people, even those who live in misery, want to keep living.
Not to mention the "abortion is population management" argument. Nativity control is a VERY controversial theme (yes, even from the economics point of view), but there are much more effective ways to implement it.
Where you can get me:
- Is a fetus life so important? The life of a barely conscious being is enough to enslave a woman for nine months? I'm sensible to that kind of argument, and you won't see me easily refuting those here... So far, I do feel that yes, it is more terrible to kill the fetus than enslave the woman... but I admit it is a subjective position... not backed by direct facts nor logic (then again, I'm thinking you won't provide me direct facts to contradict it...)
- Meh, you're a guy, who are you to say to woman what they're supposed to do? That one also is a touchy one, though I think it is a bit unfair... what if the arguments above were presented by a woman (because I do know a few women who think like I do)? As I said, at least in the case when I'm the father, I should have a saying on the child's life or death... Of course, if you want to dismiss my opinions because of my gender, please, be my guest...
To end it, I do understand many on the legalization field. I won't call "omg you murderer" on a woman who had an abortion... In fact, I DO know woman who aborted, heck, I personally know Medics who (illegally!) performed abortions. I would never denounce them to the justice, nor do I personally condemn them. Despite what you've been lead to believe, there IS place for middle ground on this issue.
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Iaculus
Again, have you considered the externalities? The social cost of an unwanted child can get pretty high, and the systems in place for dealing with that sort of thing never have quite as much funding as one might wish.
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zero
I'm not sure if I follow... You claim that a society that kills every unwanted children would have a more prosper economy? Well, I say it is very likely (one should consider of course the impact of that on the age structure, but let's just presume such society would compensate with more "wanted" children), not to mention a possible reduction on crime, on illiteracy and all, but come on... Haven't you seen me willing to accept the enslavement of a woman's body for nine months? For me the economic aspect is very much in second place (and yes, I am NOT unaware of the possible lives saved through better standards of living, less crime, etc.).Iaculus said:
To clarify... I believe you are against abortion because of the brutal suppression on a woman freedom, and that I can respect. If you think "externalities" such as the cost of systems that deal with unwanted children are more relevant factors, then we have a disagreement.
All right... Just thought I would give my two cents on the issue. I'm tired and about to get into bed, so I read only the first three pages (dunno if what I say has already been said) and my post might not make any sense at all. I'll come back tomorrow and read the whole thread.
I think an interesteresting thing to reflect upon is the perceived seriousness of abortions, more than the possible penalties, or if it is allowed.
Now, I don't think this is a black and white matter, and of course a baby that is about to be born is as good a child as one already born. But, what about 2 months old fetuses? Does a mother who gets a natural abortion as sad as if her newborn child died? Of course not! As the fetus develops, it is percieved as a much worse thing if it dies. Why shouldn't law and society regard it the same way?
Of course, I don't know how your laws work... I think abortions are legal up to an amount (unknown to me) of time after the conception? Well then, if my argument made any sense, that's allright. The thing to discuss here is the amount of time.
Don't get me wrong, I understand ending a life is wrong, even more so if it is a potential human being. But it has degrees and is not as bad. Maybe it should be punished... or maybe not. Do people get in prison for killing cats? or plants? (Ohgoddon'tgetangry remember I don't know what I'm saying!) (And of course I don't mean it's the same thing! But it has some similarity...)
I think an interesteresting thing to reflect upon is the perceived seriousness of abortions, more than the possible penalties, or if it is allowed.
Now, I don't think this is a black and white matter, and of course a baby that is about to be born is as good a child as one already born. But, what about 2 months old fetuses? Does a mother who gets a natural abortion as sad as if her newborn child died? Of course not! As the fetus develops, it is percieved as a much worse thing if it dies. Why shouldn't law and society regard it the same way?
Of course, I don't know how your laws work... I think abortions are legal up to an amount (unknown to me) of time after the conception? Well then, if my argument made any sense, that's allright. The thing to discuss here is the amount of time.
Don't get me wrong, I understand ending a life is wrong, even more so if it is a potential human being. But it has degrees and is not as bad. Maybe it should be punished... or maybe not. Do people get in prison for killing cats? or plants? (Ohgoddon'tgetangry remember I don't know what I'm saying!) (And of course I don't mean it's the same thing! But it has some similarity...)
I wouldn't actually have a problem with your arguments if you had some facts to back them up instead of laying down generalities.
The point of giving up a child to welfare or foster care and everything will be fine is also hard to prove, because not every country has adequate foster care, or any state welfare at all.
And get off your ass about "woe is me, imma guy, so I can't make that sacrifice." Bullshit you can't. Adopt. You say it might be hard in brazil for a single guy, well guess what, it's hard everywhere, it still happens. If a lesbian couple in America can do it when there are many laws against such a thing, then there's no reason you "can't" either, and if you're going to lay down some bullshit about the sanctity of life, get off your ass, and prove it.
I'm all down with enslaving as long as those who oppose abortion be forced to adopt the children born that would otherwise be aborted.
How many women who have had miscarriages have you spoken with about this?tegid said:
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