hot Topic: Obama to reverse "gag rule" on abortion

[zero]

Guess somebody has never seen the US suicide rate, or better, the Japanese one?
EDIT:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

My hypothetical opinion good, statistics bad?

My apologies, but is that what you are trying to say when Amy called you out to prove your point? Again, apologies if I misunderstood it.

Fair enough... I was claiming that, despite the tragedy of people committing suicide, they are (yes, even in Lithuania, with their impressive 70 suicides / year x 100.000 habitants) an exception. Even more, if you compare that list with some indicators of quality of life, such as GDP per capita, or Human Development Index, you will notice that surprisingly, suicide rates aren't higher on countries you would expect people to be more miserable. To cheat even more on statistics, check those two pictures:

Suicide rate: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Suicide_rates_map.svg
Legalization of induced abortion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:AbortionLawsMap-NoLegend.png

Notice that apparently, suicide rates aren't smaller on countries that legalize abortion!

Now, as I said, I won't claim that criminalization of abortion solves the suicide problem, that would be ridicule (despite the fact that I managed to cook some statistics supporting this claim!).

What I'm saying is that vast majority of people, and yes, even those miserable-beyond-worlds prostitute children in Brazil, want to remain alive. That's the imperative (perhaps too cruel) of every sentient being on earth.

 

[Iaculus]

Amy and parnter: go for it!
Sera and partner: go for it!
Shego and partner: Run for the hills! They'll raise one like her!

:-P

Don't worry, folks - I'm all over it. Just running up contracts with a couple dozen different countries' defence agencies - you'd be amazed, the price pre-made humanoid killing machines can fetch these days.

Now, how shall we split this...?

 

[ElJuski]

Universal Healthcare anybody?

Hey, hey, hey, lets keep things civil. No need to break out a nasty topic like that.

Right, so you aren't exactly on the other side of the fence thhp: I was hoping that Neon or Stienman or even Espy would take a crack at it (I especially have a lot of respect for Espy's religious stance, because the mothafucka is a scholar).

And sorry Juski, I just don't feel like going into a deep argument about something that can't really be moved forward since we have such different bases we are building on. You know as well as I do the difference between someone slitting your throat in order to steal your wallet and killing on the battlefield or in self defense. I'm not saying one is more valid or better, but it's obvious there is a difference. If abortion is truly the intentional killing of a human being then I'm sure you can see why people would want it stopped yes? And if it's not then, of course, why not abort if it's inconvenient? Although I would say we must then discuss where we start valuing potential life...
Does that make sense? I'm in class so I'm only half here right now...

Of course, you make a fair assessment at saying that cold-blooded murder and murder on the battlefield are different. That's my point; there's death for the sake of death and there's death for the sake of a different cause--necessity, perhaps, or defense--the law should recognize the difference and allow abortions in cases of rape or danger to the woman. I don't care if they open up the abortion laws further,but I think its fair to say we should protect the currently living before the fetus.

Inconvenience isn't really my issue. Fuck people who are doing it because a baby is inconvenience. What this country needs is a respect for the matter and for the child, and an alternative in various circumstances.

 

Fuck people who are doing it because a baby is inconvenience.

Define "inconvenience."

 

[Kitty Sinatra]

Fuck people who are doing it because a baby is inconvenience.

I refer you to my post about the chick who lives down the hall from me to display my absolute agreement with your opinion.

 

[JCM]

Inconvenience isn't really my issue. Fuck people who are doing it because a baby is inconvenience.

No problem.

Just also-
a)Castrate rapists, and give financial aid to raise the unwanted rape child, because of some (as in the anti-abortion crowd) want a raped girl to have her life destroyed further by having to raise a kid.

b)Put stern laws that considers a husband a rapist should he have sex with a woman when she doesnt want to, and provide shelters for women who are kicked off from home for refusing sex, especially among the lower class, because many lower-class women have no way to get away from these husbands, and according to the PETA-ish "murder"crowd, they should be relegated to becoming a baby-making factory.

c)Put a biological father in jail should he run off, have him work a sweatshop to pay alimony, should he be unable to pay for it, because damn there are shitloads of women who are abandoned by the father of the child and some (as in the anti-abortion crowd) are forcing them to raise a kid on their own to please their morals.

d)Prohibit anything that usually kills the fetus, like sex the few months after, heavy exercise, because again- Why the fuck dont we ban sex, exercise, drinking and etc for the first months of pregnancy? Heck, if life begins at conception, have every woman post-unprotected sex be forced into a regime of a balanced diet and daily routine to improve the chances of those many fetoes after conception actually making it.

But hey, its okay to order a woman to have an unwanted child, but bad to tell her husband to stop fucking her, even though the last could pretty much kill a fetus (happened to me, twice)

If some (as in the anti-abortion crowd) want to control a woman's body, make sure the decision to have sex is HERS and only hers, because so far all I see is a bunch of hypocrites telling women they aren't allowed control over their bodies, yet sadly most often its a man who causes that unwanted pregnancy.

Make sure that NEVER will a man be able to cause an unwanted pregnancy upon a woman, and i'll agree that abortion is murder, because destroying a woman's life and plans for an orgasm should be too.

 

[Espy]

Universal Healthcare anybody?

Hey, hey, hey, lets keep things civil. No need to break out a nasty topic like that.

Right, so you aren't exactly on the other side of the fence thhp: I was hoping that Neon or Stienman or even Espy would take a crack at it (I especially have a lot of respect for Espy's religious stance, because the mothafucka is a scholar).

And sorry Juski, I just don't feel like going into a deep argument about something that can't really be moved forward since we have such different bases we are building on. You know as well as I do the difference between someone slitting your throat in order to steal your wallet and killing on the battlefield or in self defense. I'm not saying one is more valid or better, but it's obvious there is a difference. If abortion is truly the intentional killing of a human being then I'm sure you can see why people would want it stopped yes? And if it's not then, of course, why not abort if it's inconvenient? Although I would say we must then discuss where we start valuing potential life...
Does that make sense? I'm in class so I'm only half here right now...

Of course, you make a fair assessment at saying that cold-blooded murder and murder on the battlefield are different. That's my point; there's death for the sake of death and there's death for the sake of a different cause--necessity, perhaps, or defense--the law should recognize the difference and allow abortions in cases of rape or danger to the woman. I don't care if they open up the abortion laws further,but I think its fair to say we should protect the currently living before the fetus.

Inconvenience isn't really my issue. Fuck people who are doing it because a baby is inconvenience. What this country needs is a respect for the matter and for the child, and an alternative in various circumstances.

Fair enough. Thanks for the discussion. My respect for you is immeasurable my good man.
*tips Top Hat and raises glass of scotch.

 

[Kitty Sinatra]

*tips Top Hat and raises glass of scotch.

That better be butterscotch, young man. If the religious right sees a baby drinking they'll reinstate Prohibition, and I needs my easily accessible bourbon to get through this recession.

 

[Espy]

*tips Top Hat and raises glass of scotch.

That better be butterscotch, young man. If the religious right sees a baby drinking they'll reinstate Prohibition, and I needs my easily accessible bourbon to get through this recession.

Bitch, I AM the religious right.

 

[Kitty Sinatra]

More like the religious wrong :moon: .

 

[Espy]

More like the religious wrong :moon: .

Up yours fuzzybutt.

 

[ElJuski]

Fuck people who are doing it because a baby is inconvenience.

Define "inconvenience."

Inconvenience, as in, I don't want my parents to find out and I have enough money lying around. But I should also stipulate that that shouldn't mean there should be a complete ban on abortion because some people use it as a spring clean up. Abortion should be legalized; I'd prefer if the sanctions on it were still somewhat strict, but for the case of emergencies, rape and danger to the woman it should be absolutely legalized.

The morality of the issue should be weighed in and considered, but I don't think that's the purpose of the state, beyond teaching high school kids how to wear a jimmy hat proper. People /should/ want to know better, act better, and behave responsibly.

Espy- I hope you weren't being sarcastic about the respect but it's always good to know I've got a go-to source about Christian morality that isn't full of weird lies and half-truths about...well, Christian morality. I'd trust your religious judgment much more than my grandma, say, who still thinks whistling indoors summons the devil. You know, just like, because.

EDIT 2: Also, @ JCM--I'm confused. I think abortion should be legal, was that whole post directed at me? >.>

 

[Troll]

Abortion should be legal, clean, safe, and a private matter for adults to decide themselves.

And it should be incredibly rare.

 

[JCM]

Abortion should be legal, clean, safe, and a private matter for adults to decide themselves.

This

EDIT 2: Also, @ JCM--I'm confused. I think abortion should be legal, was that whole post directed at me? >.>

It seemed that way, so I changed it a bit,it was aimed at the anti-abortion crowd babbling about the life of a fetus while not giving a shit about the life of the mother.

Which is rather idiotic in a society with domestic abuse, repeat rapists getting only a few years and fathers who can run off at will.

 

[Espy]

Espy- I hope you weren't being sarcastic about the respect but it's always good to know I've got a go-to source about Christian morality that isn't full of weird lies and half-truths about...well, Christian morality. I'd trust your religious judgment much more than my grandma, say, who still thinks whistling indoors summons the devil. You know, just like, because.

Honestly? Not one bit of sarcasm. You have my respect. For what that's worth. :bush:

babbling about the life of a fetus while not giving a shit about the life of the mother.

Seems to me, almost every pro-lifer in here has said there should be exceptions for the life of the mother? Did I miss something?

And it should be incredibly rare.

If you don't mind me asking, why? If it's not a human life why should they be rare? If a woman wants to use abortion as birth control what's the problem with it? I'm not saying it's smart, but why not?

 

[Iaculus]

Either it's worth as much as a human life or it's not objectionable? False dichotomy, espy. A potentiality is worth less than a certainty, but that does not make it valueless.

 

[Le Quack]

And it should be incredibly rare.

If you don't mind me asking, why? If it's not a human life why should they be rare? If a woman wants to use abortion as birth control what's the problem with it? I'm not saying it's smart, but why not?

And a vasectomy is a great way to not have kids, lets all get them instead of using condoms.

 

[Espy]

Either it's worth as much as a human life or it's not objectionable? False dichotomy, espy. A potentiality is worth less than a certainty, but that does not make it valueless.

I'm actually asking in all sincerity, not to get in a fight. You know, that whole trying to understand what someone thinks thing.

 

[Bubble181]

And it should be incredibly rare.

If you don't mind me asking, why? If it's not a human life why should they be rare? If a woman wants to use abortion as birth control what's the problem with it? I'm not saying it's smart, but why not?

A) It's unhealthy
B) it's cost-ineffective
C) It's quite unpleasant
D) There's still a potentiality being destroyed. Even if one doesn't consider it of equal value to a human, it's still something. Killing a dog isn't the same as killing a man, but that doesn't mean we should all do it just for kicks.
E) Because a lot of pro-choice people feel that choice really does matter more - for all kinds of reasons - but, deep down, they do feel a bit uncomfortable about it.

 

[Iaculus]

Either it's worth as much as a human life or it's not objectionable? False dichotomy, espy. A potentiality is worth less than a certainty, but that does not make it valueless.

I'm actually asking in all sincerity, not to get in a fight. You know, that whole trying to understand what someone thinks thing.

Despite the confrontational tone, so was I. Hence the counterargument by example in the last sentence.

 

Inconvenience, as in, I don't want my parents to find out and I have enough money lying around. But I should also stipulate that that shouldn't mean there should be a complete ban on abortion because some people use it as a spring clean up. Abortion should be legalized; I'd prefer if the sanctions on it were still somewhat strict, but for the case of emergencies, rape and danger to the woman it should be absolutely legalized.

What about the people who don't use it as "spring cleanup" but aren't in physical danger from the pregnancy? A condom breaks, and a responsible young single woman living from paycheck to paycheck finds herself alone and pregnant, unable to support the medical expense of a pregnancy or a child on her meager insurance and salary. Or does that count as "spring cleanup" to you? Does it matter that she was using birth control? Is this another way to punish women for having sex before marriage? Because if the woman is to be forced by legislators to carry the child to term and deliver, why isn't the man forced to do his part too? What about married women getting abortions for non-medical reasons?

These are rhetorical questions, not a challenge to your viewpoint. But they illustrate why I find it unacceptable to have other people's morals involved with this intensely personal decision, because the area is far too grey to know what is "right" and what isn't. Example: If I were an atheist, why would I possibly allow a Christian to tell me what I'm doing is against God? Why is the atheist's perspective less valid than the Christian's? (I mean from a moral standpoint, not the fact that theists overwhelmingly, if not unanimously, control federal and state legislation.)

But as has already been said a million times and several in this thread alone, this debate is completely pointless.

 

[Le Quack]

Damn those good sounding words sprout from the crazy cat lady's mouth.

 

[ElJuski]

Inconvenience, as in, I don't want my parents to find out and I have enough money lying around. But I should also stipulate that that shouldn't mean there should be a complete ban on abortion because some people use it as a spring clean up. Abortion should be legalized; I'd prefer if the sanctions on it were still somewhat strict, but for the case of emergencies, rape and danger to the woman it should be absolutely legalized.

What about the people who don't use it as "spring cleanup" but aren't in physical danger from the pregnancy? A condom breaks, and a responsible young single woman living from paycheck to paycheck finds herself alone and pregnant, unable to support the medical expense of a pregnancy or a child on her meager insurance and salary. Or does that count as "spring cleanup" to you? Does it matter that she was using birth control? Is this another way to punish women for having sex before marriage? Because if the woman is to be forced by legislators to carry the child to term and deliver, why isn't the man forced to do his part too? What about married women getting abortions for non-medical reasons?

These are rhetorical questions, not a challenge to your viewpoint. But they illustrate why I find it unacceptable to have other people's morals involved with this intensely personal decision, because the area is far too grey to know what is "right" and what isn't. Example: If I were an atheist, why would I possibly allow a Christian to tell me what I'm doing is against God? Why is the atheist's perspective less valid than the Christian's? (I mean from a moral standpoint, not the fact that theists overwhelmingly, if not unanimously, control federal and state legislation.)

But as has already been said a million times and several in this thread alone, this debate is completely pointless.

Like I said above,

"The morality of the issue should be weighed in and considered, but I don't think that's the purpose of the state, beyond teaching high school kids how to wear a jimmy hat proper. People /should/ want to know better, act better, and behave responsibly."

 

[Troll]

And it should be incredibly rare.

If you don't mind me asking, why? If it's not a human life why should they be rare? If a woman wants to use abortion as birth control what's the problem with it? I'm not saying it's smart, but why not?

Bubble already answered pretty well, but I wanted to offer my take since it was my quote.

First of all, abortion is incredibly traumatic on the woman. Well, it can be traumatic on the would-be father as well, but usually more so for the would-be mother. It's not a pleasant process for anyone to go through, emotionally and physically. As Bubble pointed out, it's a loss of potential. Most of all, I say it should be rare because people should be smart about either abstaining from sex, or using protection.

For me, being pro-choice doesn't mean you think abortion is cool, or good, or that it's something everyone should do once. It's a last resort when the other options don't work. It's something that will be done, so it might as well be done safely.

I'm an odd thinker on this issue. I personally wouldn't never be happy with a woman I got pregnant having an abortion. If I thought we could make it work as a couple, I would try that. If she was willing to have it, and then let me raise the child on my own because she wanted nothing to do with it, I'd go that route. If neither of us could raise the child, I try to go for adoption. Obviously I wouldn't have the final say on the matter, but you can bet I would do everything I can to avoid abortion. I'm not pro-choice because I want that safety net. I'm pro-choice because I want everyone to decide for themselves, and I want it done safely if it's going to be done at all.

 

[JCM]

babbling about the life of a fetus while not giving a shit about the life of the mother.

Seems to me, almost every pro-lifer in here has said there should be exceptions for the life of the mother? Did I miss something?

Everything.

They dont give a shit about the life (as in, the REST OF the life of the mother) Look at today's laws. The pro-lifer PETA idiots here want to force a raped girl, a woman who the father of the kid left her, a lower-income woman who must obey the husband because she cant get out, all to have kids.

Lets try this again Espy, and tell my the fuck abortionists have any right to force a woman to not abort, when they cant do-

a)Castrate rapists, and give financial aid to raise the unwanted rape child, because of some (as in the anti-abortion crowd) want a raped girl to have her life destroyed further by having to raise a kid.

b)Put stern laws that considers a husband a rapist should he have sex with a woman when she doesnt want to, and provide shelters for women who are kicked off from home for refusing sex, especially among the lower class, because many lower-class women have no way to get away from these husbands, and according to the PETA-ish "murder"crowd, they should be relegated to becoming a baby-making factory.

c)Put a biological father in jail should he run off, have him work a sweatshop to pay alimony, should he be unable to pay for it, because damn there are shitloads of women who are abandoned by the father of the child and some (as in the anti-abortion crowd) are forcing them to raise a kid on their own to please their morals.

d)Prohibit anything that usually kills the fetus, like sex the few months after, heavy exercise, because again- Why the fuck dont we ban sex, exercise, drinking and etc for the first months of pregnancy? Heck, if life begins at conception, have every woman post-unprotected sex be forced into a regime of a balanced diet and daily routine to improve the chances of those many fetoes after conception actually making it.

But hey, its okay to order a woman to have an unwanted child, but bad to tell her husband to stop fucking her, even though the last could pretty much kill a fetus (happened to me, twice)

If some (as in the anti-abortion crowd) want to control a woman's body, make sure the decision to have sex is HERS and only hers, because so far all I see is a bunch of hypocrites telling women they aren't allowed control over their bodies, yet sadly most often its a man who causes that unwanted pregnancy.

Make sure that NEVER will a man be able to cause an unwanted pregnancy upon a woman, and i'll agree that abortion is murder, because destroying a woman's life and plans for an orgasm should be too.

But hey, lets destroy a woman's life because of a fetus, in a society with domestic abuse, repeat rapists getting only a few years and fathers who can run off at will. :slywink:

 

[Iaculus]

babbling about the life of a fetus while not giving a shit about the life of the mother.

Seems to me, almost every pro-lifer in here has said there should be exceptions for the life of the mother? Did I miss something?

Everything.

Bolded for emphasis. JCM, you're conflating those debating on this thread with outside whackjobs again...

 

[JCM]

babbling about the life of a fetus while not giving a shit about the life of the mother.

Seems to me, almost every pro-lifer in here has said there should be exceptions for the life of the mother? Did I miss something?

Everything.

Bolded for emphasis. JCM, you're conflating those debating on this thread with outside whackjobs again...

Nope.

All the pro-lifer PETA guys here have been whining about how a fetus is life, yet not a single one has proposed laws to make it that the woman is not at a disadvantage.

Its like PETA, releasing lab rats only to become food, in a forest.

-No Pro-lifer has the right to tell a raped girl to destroy her life further by having a child that will forever remind her of the rape.
-No Pro-lifer has the right to tell a low-income family wife who has no choice but let her husband do as he pleases, because she has nowhere else to go, to become a baby-making factory.
-No Pro-lifer has the right to tell a single mother who the father ran off that she must somehow find a way to raise that kid on her own.
-and again, if a Fetus=life, prohibit sex, heavy exercise, and force a balanced diet and strict regime on the woman after unprotected sex,because shitloads of fertilized eggs and fetoes die because of this.

Go all the way, or stop babbling about the life of the fetus if nobody here gives a shit about the life of the mother. Or we can do what Amy suggested a few pages back-

let the mother choose what's best for her instead of relegating her existence as a uterus life support machine for a child who will be born unwanted.

So far, Amy's post has been the best solution. :slywink:

 

[Espy]

babbling about the life of a fetus while not giving a shit about the life of the mother.

Seems to me, almost every pro-lifer in here has said there should be exceptions for the life of the mother? Did I miss something?

Everything.

Bolded for emphasis. JCM, you're conflating those debating on this thread with outside whackjobs again...

I'm totally lost. What the hell is JCM talking about? I don't think it's what I'm talking about...

 

[JCM]

babbling about the life of a fetus while not giving a shit about the life of the mother.

Seems to me, almost every pro-lifer in here has said there should be exceptions for the life of the mother? Did I miss something?

Everything.

I'm totally lost.

Of course you are. All the pro-lifers care is that the fetus and mother are alive.

Not a single one of the shits care if the mother's life post-pregnancy will be a shitty one, nor the situations I posted above.

 

[Kitty Sinatra]

Stuff

See, this is why you're losing that poll. We have the exact same opinion on this topic, but you're wording it all wrong.

 

[Futureking]

I've always wondered about this, if life begins at conception why do we celebrate birthdays instead of Conception Day! or the day mom found out she was pregnant day... you know what I mean.

We could do that. But political correctness is a left wing thing. So we're fine with birthdays.

 

[Troll]

Stuff

See, this is why you're losing that poll. We have the exact same opinion on this topic, but you're wording it all wrong.

Oh.

Um... let's see.

"I'm pro-choice, and you should be too. If you aren't, you're stupid. Also, I don't actually like abortions, so if you're okay with them you're stupid."

Better? I tried to cover all my bases.

 

[Espy]

Seems to me, almost every pro-lifer in here has said there should be exceptions for the life of the mother? Did I miss something?

Everything.

I'm totally lost.

Of course you are. All the pro-lifers care is that the fetus and mother are alive.

Not a single one of the shits care if the mother's life post-pregnancy will be a shitty one, nor the situations I posted above.

Well okay then. Glad you have us all pegged.

 

Well okay then. Glad you have us all pegged.

Proof that both sides can go batpoo crazy with the "IT'S ALL BLACK OR WHITE AND EVERYONE WHO DOESN'T THINK EXACTLY LIKE ME IS WRONG" ego trips.

(edit: that was to espy, re: JCM. espy's post was not the proof i meant. i am a little off kilter at the moment.)

 

[Espy]

Well okay then. Glad you have us all pegged.

Proof that both sides can go batpoo crazy with the "IT'S ALL BLACK OR WHITE AND EVERYONE WHO DOESN'T THINK EXACTLY LIKE ME IS WRONG" ego trips.

(edit: that was to espy, re: JCM. espy's post was not the proof i meant. i am a little off kilter at the moment.)

Of course they can. JCM was simply discussing something different than the rest of us which made the conversation... confusing at best.
It's been nice to have some simple back and forth without the flaming though. Who said we can't be civil round these parts? :aaahhh: