Z
zero
Geez dude, I was agreeing with you...JCM said:
'THE HELL??? Is there another Zero on this forum?JCM said:
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ElJuski
Staff member
I don't think the point should be whether or not it is murder. I'm saying it is.
What I want to argue is the fact that while people take a moral high ground with abortion, the same cannot be said for war and capital punishment. If we make exceptions to murder on that end, I don't think it is a stretch to say exceptions can be made for abortion.
Jonjon brought up the inalienable right to life. I had a morality class that talked about this. What we have, at war here, are:
-The fetus' right to life
-The mother's right to abortion
-The mother's right to life (where the mother's life is in danger)
The essay we wrote brought up this case scenario. Imagine one day you wake up in your bed. There are doctors all around you and you realize you are attached, at the kidney, to the most skilled violinist on the planet.
You are the only one that can carry on this operation: to be attached to the kidney with this violinist for nine months until the operation is complete.
Now, it would be beyond commendable to go through with this operation and stay attached for the duration. But this was not something that you actively asked for. The morally right thing to do would be to sit there for nine months bearing violinist at the kidney. But you would not be morally wrong if you chose to say no.
In the grand scheme of things, the woman's right to life out-trumps the child's. The woman's right to abortion helps facilitate that need. Now, this does NOT mean, by any means, that abortion should be completely legal and encouraged. That's what I think is the disconnect for many people. Legalizing abortion will not, in turn, encourage abortion if there are means set in place that it would be used in special circumstances. Vigilance in a moral and a legal sense is needed to keep things moving smoothly.
What I want to argue is the fact that while people take a moral high ground with abortion, the same cannot be said for war and capital punishment. If we make exceptions to murder on that end, I don't think it is a stretch to say exceptions can be made for abortion.
Jonjon brought up the inalienable right to life. I had a morality class that talked about this. What we have, at war here, are:
-The fetus' right to life
-The mother's right to abortion
-The mother's right to life (where the mother's life is in danger)
The essay we wrote brought up this case scenario. Imagine one day you wake up in your bed. There are doctors all around you and you realize you are attached, at the kidney, to the most skilled violinist on the planet.
You are the only one that can carry on this operation: to be attached to the kidney with this violinist for nine months until the operation is complete.
Now, it would be beyond commendable to go through with this operation and stay attached for the duration. But this was not something that you actively asked for. The morally right thing to do would be to sit there for nine months bearing violinist at the kidney. But you would not be morally wrong if you chose to say no.
In the grand scheme of things, the woman's right to life out-trumps the child's. The woman's right to abortion helps facilitate that need. Now, this does NOT mean, by any means, that abortion should be completely legal and encouraged. That's what I think is the disconnect for many people. Legalizing abortion will not, in turn, encourage abortion if there are means set in place that it would be used in special circumstances. Vigilance in a moral and a legal sense is needed to keep things moving smoothly.
K
Kitty Sinatra
I don't. I'm quite content to extend that to mean complete access to abortion for whatever reason the woman bearing the kid has, even if that's as a form of birth control.Calleja said:
J
JCM
Funnily, I stand with Carin on most stuff.Calleja said:
Minus rape. That is never funny. Even if its Elmer Fud raping Porky Pig
Geez Hollow, you really want that top spot huh? :-P
That aside: statistically, Belgium has less abortions than the USA (per capita). We have legalised abortion. And, for the record, it costs a whopping €1. (it does take a few days including some psychiatric visits, but, you know, that's a good thing
). Legalised abortion cuts down on abortions, it doesn't increase the percentage.
Abortion isn't murder. It can be considered evil/wrong/illegal on a lot of other grounds, though. Manslaughter isn't murder either. Nor is driving into a tree. Nor is jumping in front of a train. Yet all involve the loss of life and are illegal.
Euthanisia we can argue about 'till the cows come home on whether or not it's murder. Abortion? Nope.
That aside: statistically, Belgium has less abortions than the USA (per capita). We have legalised abortion. And, for the record, it costs a whopping €1. (it does take a few days including some psychiatric visits, but, you know, that's a good thing
). Legalised abortion cuts down on abortions, it doesn't increase the percentage.Abortion isn't murder. It can be considered evil/wrong/illegal on a lot of other grounds, though. Manslaughter isn't murder either. Nor is driving into a tree. Nor is jumping in front of a train. Yet all involve the loss of life and are illegal.
Euthanisia we can argue about 'till the cows come home on whether or not it's murder. Abortion? Nope.
K
Kitty Sinatra
What? No.Bubble181 said:
No no no. That was me contributing. It is 100% my sincere opinion on the topic. Honest. I swear.
Seriously.
K
Kitty Sinatra
Fo shizzle, man. Tis the internet, after all
Question. If you're the violinist's only hope, wouldn't you practically have a part in his/her suffering or death if you refuse?ElJuski said:
I suppose only if it is probable that the woman may die from childbirth. But some people talk of abortion like its another form of contraception. Its a big turn off, really.ElJuski said:
K
Kitty Sinatra
Shit, man. There's this chick lives down the hall from me. We passed by each other in the hall once in a while, and I thought "meh, she's alright." But then, check this out, my neighbour - a right nosy bitch this neighbour - told me, whispered at me how this chick has had like seven abortions in the past 3 years. Well, I don't think I hafta tell you, but I had to get me a new second look at this chick. So I grabbed me a bottle of wine, picked up some flowers and knocked on her door. When she answered, I saw her in a whole new light. Smoking hot. I was right turned on. There was nothing gonna stop my fires that night. I used all my moves and I had her on the floor before the flowers were in the vase or the wine was uncorked. And oh boy is she fertile. Got her pregnant that night. The next week she got herself an abortion and and I was back in her apartment quick as you could say "Casanova." Didn't even bother bringing no wine or flowers. She was just rarin' ta get pregnant again.Futureking said:
She must've aborted 13 of my babies before I grew bored of her.
ElJuski
Staff member
Yes, of course. And surely that would sway most people to act upon their conscience. But that does not mean that you are morally obligated to keep the violinist. Just morally inclined.Futureking said:
Well here's the thing--those people are in the moral wrong, and it is quite unfortunate that people would use abortion like a throwaway condom. If we are talking about destroying a life--in the fetus phase and beyond--I think we're talking murder.Futreking said:
However, that murder is relative, and in certain instances a necessary evil that one must take to protect the rights of the citizenry. I think abortions for all is taking it much too far. But I think it's neglectful and sad that there isn't a safety net for those certain circumstances. At the least we need to open up channels to have options available. And I don't think that considering abortion murder is the end-all to the argument, since I think many people are being hypocritical standing by absolutisms.
K
Kitty Sinatra
oooh, Juski! You've just been Godwin'd. You ain't gonna take that now are ya?Bubble181 said:
Fight!
Fight!
Fight!
(I'll earn that Troll vote yet!)
ElJuski
Staff member
I actually think that was part of the essay :lol:Bubble181 said:
There were some other good anecdotes too. One was about a baby growing inside of a house, and it was either the mother shot the super huge baby or the baby ate her, or something. It's been a few years, so yes, that's probably not it at all.
I think allow abortions for those who need it is more important than denying it for those who don't. Some people probably will just use it as a fail-safe in case of the pill not working or having accidentally used a swiss condom, but you can't judge the procedure by people who abuse the system. The judgment should be based on the merits and demerits of the system itself. If somebody is getting their carpet vacuumed constantly (to put it one way), they shouldn't be affecting whether or not somebody should be allowed to legally get an abortion.Futureking said:
And in the time it took me to type this all out, a bunch of other people posted. Oh well.
A thread about abortion has garnered 0 reports. None.
The thread about the fucking Oscars got like 4.
I love this place!
The thread about the fucking Oscars got like 4.
I love this place!
P
Philosopher B.
Edrondol said:
Movies = serious business.
M
makare
Probably more about expectation. If you are walking in a field and someone throws shit at you, you can be justifiable pissed. If you purposely jump into a huge vat of shit, you have no one to blame but yourself.
I
Iaculus
Depends who was chasing you...makare1 said:
Actually, its getting pretty civil since steinman got bored with this thread and went looking for a new one.makare1 said:
K
Kitty Sinatra
:sadness: I'm just not trolling well enough. :waah:Futureking said:
Follow Neon's example in this thread and you'll do fine.Gruebeard said:
(And no, I am not referring to his position on the matter.)
That's because you reported my last post, you dork.Bubble181 said:
ElJuski
Staff member
I was really hoping I could have somebody actually getting into my argument. But it appears silence has fallen on the field, which makes me think two things.
(A)- The anti-abortion people can't refute it
(B)- The anti-abortion people are staying away from this thread, for fear that they'll have to refute my claim.
I just really wanted to chomp down on something! Or at least start understanding where the other end comes from.
(A)- The anti-abortion people can't refute it
(B)- The anti-abortion people are staying away from this thread, for fear that they'll have to refute my claim.
I just really wanted to chomp down on something! Or at least start understanding where the other end comes from.
M
makare
welcome to my world.... we are much abused here.ElJuski said:
J
JONJONAUG
Actually it was because I got bored and went to go replay Sam and Max games (episodes 3 and 5 of the second season, funniest games ever made).ElJuski said:
And now I'm tired and don't feel like playing with you guys in this thread anymore. I'm going to bed.
Every abortion topic always raises the following question with me: why would you ever want to be so cruel to a baby to force it to be born in a world where it was unwanted by its parents. Life is more than about life - there's already too many children out there made to fend for themselves because their mother doesn't give a damn and their father gives them a beating every night and those are the ones that grow up to be criminals, sociopaths, etc.
I
Iaculus
Adoption.Icarus said:
It has its limitations, but it's an available third option much of the time.
It was an argument I got myself into a few posts ago?ElJuski said:
:bush:
It wasn't a very good one if I didn't feel like arguing. I want my money back.
Not much to argue about. We've pretty much established some pointsElJuski said:
1) Abortion is ok only if the life of the mother is in danger. And only if there are no alternatives to save both mother and baby.
2) If the mother's life is in danger, but she's adamantly against it, we respect the woman's wishes
I mean. "Rah rah let the mother die" isn't exactly a moral high ground. The "Abortion is contraception" stance isn't my cup of tea either.
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