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I guess Masashi read Harry Potter

Jun 20, 2010#1

fade

I'm kidding, first of all, before some manga nutjob gets crazy on me.

But damn, he may as well have drawn a lightning scar on Naruto's forehead in that last issue. First Minato was in his brain saving him from the piece of the evil [strike]Voldemort[/strike] Kyuubi living inside him thanks to a failed attempt to take over the world 16 years ago, then his mom was there, and saved him with the ancient power of mommy love.

Jun 20, 2010#2

ElJuski

ohh man anime nerd rage is usually the best.

:popcorn:

Jun 20, 2010#3

Shegokigo

Jigglymuff said:
ohh man anime nerd rage is usually the best.

Jun 20, 2010#4

Calleja

Wait, I thought Naruto was for like little kids?

Jun 20, 2010#5

Iaculus

Calleja said:
Wait, I thought Naruto was for like little kids?

So's Doctor Who.

(ducks).

On-topic, you were seriously expecting good storytelling from Kishimoto by this point?

Jun 20, 2010#6

fade

Calleja said:
Wait, I thought Naruto was for like little kids?

And I thought the Beatles were for crusty old Boomers trying desperately to cling to youth. I guess we were both wrong.

Jun 20, 2010#7

CynicismKills

fade;402434][QUOTE=Calleja said:
Wait, I thought Naruto was for like little kids?

And I thought the Beatles were for crusty old Boomers trying desperately to cling to youth. I guess we were both wrong.[/QUOTE]

Zing!

Jun 20, 2010#8

Calleja

Uh.. I seriously thought it was for little kids. I was not being trollish. Sheesh.

Jun 20, 2010#9

Gusto

I'd say it aims for boys aged 9-17.

That said, I started reading it when I was like 15-16, and damn if I'm gonna stop now that things are getting a little [more] hackey.

My OCD won't let me.

Jun 20, 2010#10

Espy

Calleja said:
Uh.. I seriously thought it was for little kids. I was not being trollish. Sheesh.

Me too. I caught an episode on tv awhile back and figured it was part of the digimon/pokemon crowd stuff. If we are talking about a manga version over the tv version then maybe its really different, at least that would be my guess.

Jun 20, 2010#11

fade

I was just playing with you, Calleja, whether you were trolling or not. It's not in the same age range as Pokemon (unless pokemon shows things like blood and guts and beheadings). The old stuff could be a little kiddish, but still worth the read. The care put into constructing a whole world is well done. Post time-skip (the manga skips ahead 3 years at one point), the story got really good for a while. But after a while they got to the DBZ power plateau syndrome, and things got a little hackey. Still, it's got a good hook, and good art.

Jun 20, 2010#12

ElJuski

Hey don't be dissing Pocket Monsters.

Jun 20, 2010#13

Iaculus

Calleja said:
Uh.. I seriously thought it was for little kids. I was not being trollish. Sheesh.

Oh, I was just messing with you. It's not like Naruto's something I feel the need to staunchly defend.

It's a shonen series, one of the four categories of anime and manga. Shonen is the largest, aimed at pre-teen and teenage boys. The other three, for the record, are shoujo (girls), seinen (young men), and josei (young women).

Whilst shonen can be very kiddy (i.e., most versions of Pokemon), one has to remember that it has the most multiple-demographic appeal of the four, which is one of the reasons why it's the biggest earner. The critically-acclaimed and often very disturbing Fullmetal Alchemist, for instance, is also shonen. Naruto falls somewhere in the middle - yes, it's about a goofball wannabe-ninja who never quite figures out that orange is not the most stealthy of colours, but it's also about a bunch of child soldiers, and the author doesn't always forget that. Plus, Shippuden (the sequel series, where the cast're all a bit older) gets quite a bit darker.

Jun 20, 2010#14

ElJuski

STOP HATING ON POKEMON

GOSH

Jun 20, 2010#15

Iaculus

Jigglymuff said:
STOP HATING ON POKEMON

GOSH

I said kiddy, not bad.

Pixar is kiddy.

Jun 20, 2010#16

ElJuski

NO YOU HATE POKEMON

AND NOW I WANT YOU TO HAVE A BAD DAY

Jun 20, 2010#17

Iaculus

Jigglymuff said:
NO YOU HATE POKEMON

AND NOW I WANT YOU TO HAVE A BAD DAY

:humph:

Jun 20, 2010#18

ElJuski

>: [

Jun 20, 2010#19

fade

Negative rep because someone misinterpreted my playing around as seriousness. Is my wife in here or something?

Jun 20, 2010#20

ElJuski

FADE JUST STOP TALKING ABOUT POKEMON LIEK THAT

Jun 20, 2010#21

Calleja

I actually thought Naruto was even kiddier than Pokemon, targeted at pre-schoolers or whatnot. Granted, all the experience I have with Naruto is like 5 total minutes of watching time and little kindergarten kids running around with symbols strapped to their head.

Fullmetal Alchemist is one of my favorite things EVER. If Naruto is the same genre, I'll definitely check it out.

Jun 20, 2010#22

Iaculus

Calleja said:
I actually thought Naruto was even kiddier than Pokemon, targeted at pre-schoolers or whatnot. Granted, all the experience I have with Naruto is like 5 total minutes of watching time and little kindergarten kids running around with symbols strapped to their head.

Fullmetal Alchemist is one of my favorite things EVER. If Naruto is the same genre, I'll definitely check it out.

'Genre' is perhaps an overstatement. It's more 'target audience'. That said, Fullmetal Alchemist is technically part of the genre known as the 'shonen fighting series', of which Bleach, Naruto, and Dragonball Z are exemplars.

Honesltly, you're likely to just find Naruto annoyingly bland after being spoiled by FMA. That's a problem for shonen in general, due to their easily-pleased audience and frequently commercial nature. Seinen tends to have a higher percentage of good stuff, such as Darker than Black (and yes, I do pimp that show with annoying frequency). If you want to try one of the big, mainstream shonen fighters, though, then I've heard decent things about One Piece... provided you have patience, and can get past the rather odd art-style. The Mahou Sensei Negima manga is also highly-regarded, though due to executive meddling, it masqueraded as a rather dodgy harem comedy for the first two volumes, and even after that... well, I hope you like fanservice.

The other common type of shonen is mecha shows, though there are seinen (and even josei and shoujo) examples of those, too. Those are a whole different kettle of fish, with their own different traditions and subdivisions.

Jun 20, 2010#23

tegid

It's the same genre, but don't expect the same quality...
Besides this, yeah, you had a completely wrong idea.

Jun 20, 2010#24

fade

FMA has moments...and it's a good story. But it depends on what you like. I'm not going to lie--I'm a big Naruto fan, and I don't care how silly that sounds. I prefer it over FMA (WHICH I LIKE AND FEEL COMPELLED TO TYPE IN ALL CAPS THAT I LIKE IT EVEN THOUGH SOMEONE WILL STILL IGNORE THIS), because of a couple of things. One, I never really got a good read on Edward Elric's character. Who is he? I'm still not sure at the end of the series. I mean, he doesn't like to be called short, and he wants to fix his brother, but that's about it. Two, the story feels small in focus in a tunnel vision kind of way--at least a little. This is opinion, of course. The background paintings are awesome--at least in the original series. Brotherhood may be based on the manga, but the art sure went downhill. By comparison, I love the entire magic/myth/psuedoscience that Kishimoto has created. It feels broken out of a larger universe, and the pieces of it work together. You know who everyone is on a character level.

Not that the two have to go head to head at all, but if I had to choose one over the other, I'd have to choose Naruto.

Jun 20, 2010#25

Iaculus

Really? I thought I got a pretty good handle on Ed. Basically, he's insecure. I'm not just talking about the height here - that's somewhere between a peripheral thing and a symptom. He's lugging around some serious survivor guilt whilst working for an organisation he really isn't fond of, and trying to stave it off through a faith in his own skills that tends to manifest as cocky, swaggering showmanship. Look at his flashy transmutations, his tendency to bludgeon others over the head with his intellect, and the way he completely goes to pieces when that defence, that almighty self-image, is damaged. Relying on others is a serious issue for him, and a significant part of his character development... but on the other hand, that determination to sort things out for himself means that once he sets his mind on something, you're probably going to have to resort to anti-tank rounds to even slow him down.

There's a lot of depth there, if you look for it.

Jun 20, 2010#26

Calleja

The plight of Ed is one I actually found very poignant, actually. Trying to get his mother back he completely fucked his brother up... losing an arm and a leg was even completely secondary to that. He lived with a constant reminder of the mistake he had as a little kid, and tried to correct it and rise above it the rest of his life.

Jun 21, 2010#27

AshburnerX

Al's even more poignant: He's a (sorta) living constant reminder of his and his brother's failure, and he's suffered far worse for it than Ed EVER did (to the point where he wasn't even sure he was real for awhile). However, despite the fact that he'd very much like his body back, he's really only in this whole mess because he wants his brother to let go of his guilt over his failures. He could live with never getting his body back but he can't live with his brother being in so much emotional pain. I've always thought his Alchemist title was the one that best described the kind of person he really was: He's called the Iron-Heart Alchemist because he will endure any pain to ensure the people he cares about are okay.

Plus the whole series is a very well concealed parable over the dangers of Stem-Cell Research (The Philosopher's Stone is a material that lets you do just about anything you could ever want, but it's made from people. Not spoiling that because it was in the last series.) and just Science in general because...

... every time you perform Alchemy, someone dies on the other end of The Gate. The REAL WORLD is on the other end of that gate and World War 1 is going on, thus hiding the mass deaths required. This a metaphor for the thousands of lives we lost in the midst of our Scientific Progress.

Jun 21, 2010#28

Iaculus

I wouldn't say that Fullmetal Alchemist has a central 'science is bad' moral, though. The two main characters are scientists (and Ed's a staunch atheist) who accomplish a great deal of good with their innovations, and stand by the relevant ideals throughout the series. Rather, it's a simple advisory to remember the human element - in science, politics, whatever. To paraphrase Dragon Age, science was made to serve man, not rule over him.

Mind you, that's the manga. The first anime, as mentioned above, is a bit different.

Jun 21, 2010#29

AshburnerX

Iaculus said:
I wouldn't say that Fullmetal Alchemist has a central 'science is bad' moral, though. The two main characters are scientists (and Ed's a staunch atheist) who accomplish a great deal of good with their innovations, and stand by the relevant ideals throughout the series. Rather, it's a simple advisory to remember the human element - in science, politics, whatever. To paraphrase Dragon Age, science was made to serve man, not rule over him.

Mind you, that's the manga. The first anime, as mentioned above, is a bit different.

I never said it was always portrayed in a bad light, because it wasn't. In fact, Alchemy saved more lives in both series than it took, and probably does so on a daily basis. However, it also points out the extremes that some people will go to in order to GET that knowledge... from the laboratories where souls were bound to armor, to Showe Tucker and the lengths he'd go to in order to make chimeras.

Basically, the series villafies those who use Science to commit atrocities, while admitting that sometimes people will die in the name of progress.

Jun 21, 2010#30

Shegokigo

*shrug* I get the same way about when people talk about Dragonball when their only exposure is the FUNamation chop job.

Most anime is going to be called "kiddy" and "stupid" to people who see it in their +20s if they didn't grow up on it and it's been "chopped" for a younger audience.

Jun 21, 2010#31

fade

The DisneyXD dub of Shippuden is terrible. It really brings down the show a lot. They really softened up the dialogue, and the voice actors are just plain bad.

Jun 21, 2010#32

Iaculus

Shegokigo said:
*shrug* I get the same way about when people talk about Dragonball when their only exposure is the FUNamation chop job.

Most anime is going to be called "kiddy" and "stupid" to people who see it in their +20s if they didn't grow up on it and it's been "chopped" for a younger audience.

Not a younger audience, a western one. Even pre-censorship with all the gore and dismemberment, Dragonball was still shonen, and still primarily intended for kids.

Sorry, just felt it necessary to point that out.

Jun 21, 2010#33

Shegokigo

Yeah and you fail completely. Nice try though. :biggrin:- :thumbsup:

Jun 21, 2010#34

Iaculus

Shegokigo said:
Yeah and you fail completely. Nice try though. :biggrin:-

Fail at what? Noting a show's target audience for the sake of clarity? I don't get it.

Jun 21, 2010#35

CynicismKills

Shonen is named for the age range/gender. It might be targeted at a certain group, but that doesn't mean those outside can't enjoy it. I mean if you really want to get technical it's also targeted to young boys, primarily.

Jun 21, 2010#36

General Specific

I was ruined for all other anime shows by watching Cowboy Bebop first. There are only a few series I have seen that are in the same vicinity, but none that are close to it.

Jun 21, 2010#37

Calleja

Fullmetal Alchemist > Saint Seiya >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cowboy Bebop

Jun 21, 2010#38

Iaculus

CynicismKills said:
Shonen is named for the age range/gender. It might be targeted at a certain group, but that doesn't mean those outside can't enjoy it. I mean if you really want to get technical it's also targeted to young boys, primarily.

Jun 21, 2010#39

Calleja

It's ridiculous how much they censor cartoons in the States these days... there's a good example of a Pokemon episode that was cut because it SHOWED a gun. Not someone being shot, not heads exploding in a shower of giblets... just a gun in someone's hand. BANNED.

For eff's sake.

Jun 21, 2010#40

Null

Cowboy Bebop was exceptional. The only series I've liked enough to actually buy the manga has been Berserk, though.

Jun 21, 2010#41

General Specific

Calleja said:
Fullmetal Alchemist > Saint Seiya >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cowboy Bebop

You're entitled to your own opinion, no matter how wrong it might be.

Jun 21, 2010#42

AshburnerX

Calleja said:
It's ridiculous how much they censor cartoons in the States these days... there's a good example of a Pokemon episode that was cut because it SHOWED a gun. Not someone being shot, not heads exploding in a shower of giblets... just a gun in someone's hand. BANNED.

For eff's sake.

Which is ironic, because I distinctly remember them showing a gun off in an first season episode here in the states. It was an episode about Officer Jenny training Growliths into Police Dogs/Pokemon, and the fake burglar guy had a gun which scared off Pikachu.

And I suddenly remember why I'm still a virgin...

Also, Ronin Warriors > Saint Seiya.

Edited for obvious spelling mistake

Jun 21, 2010#43

Calleja

CAMUS DISAGREEES!!

EJECUCIOOON............ AURORA!!!!!

(Sorry, those I watched in Spanish all through my childhood, I think it's "Aurora Execution" in English, but I don't know, they translate very weirdly sometimes, I wouldn't be surprised if it was "MAGICAL ICE ATTACK!!" or something in the english dub)

Jun 21, 2010#44

CynicismKills

Iaculus;403046][QUOTE=CynicismKills said:
Shonen is named for the age range/gender. It might be targeted at a certain group, but that doesn't mean those outside can't enjoy it. I mean if you really want to get technical it's also targeted to young boys, primarily.

I never said it couldn't be enjoyed outside that - as I mentioned above, shonen tends to have the most multiple-demographic appeal of the four categories of manga. I was just pointing out that its primary target audience is not actually all that far removed from the children that 4Kids and company attempted to market to with their messy chop-jobs.[/QUOTE]

No worries there, sir, I was agreeing with you.

---------- Post added at 07:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:05 PM ----------

Also, I always got a laugh when my younger brother watched Yu-Gi-Oh, and the security dudes just pointed their fingers like guns or had walkie-talkies in them.

---------- Post added at 07:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:06 PM ----------

OH! I also remember the "swimsuits" they put on Ryoko and Ayeka in the Tenchi Universe series on Cartoon Network. Basically it was a thin overlay of color on the character that didn't really block anything at all (the didn't draw the 'ginas and you could still see nipples). Hilarious.

Jun 21, 2010#45

AshburnerX

Calleja said:
CAMUS DISAGREEES!!

EJECUCIOOON............ AURORA!!!!!

Ryo counter attacks!

Calleja said:
(Sorry, those I watched in Spanish all through my childhood, I think it's "Aurora Execution" in English, but I don't know, they translate very weirdly sometimes, I wouldn't be surprised if it was "MAGICAL ICE ATTACK!!" or something in the english dub)

Saint Seiya only had like half a season here in the US. It failed for the same reason that the first Gundam series did: They played an old-school cartoon during a time when people who might actually like it are still at work/school. Had they put it on Adult Swim, it would have fared better.

Also, the into sucked.

Jun 21, 2010#46

CynicismKills

Yeah, I can still remember waking up earlier than I needed to on weekdays to watch Ronin Warriors. I've got a couple of the toys around here somewhere...

Jun 21, 2010#47

Calleja

Saint Seiya was a fucking cultural phenomenon down here in the mid 90s. Seriously, people fought over the action figures at supermarkets and shit. We all watched it religiously as kids, even lots of girls.

And it wasn't censored... let me see if I can find a clip I'm thinking of to illustrate how much it was NOT censored.

There we go... watch from 6:00 to around 6:35. That's a looot of blood.

---------- Post added at 07:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:36 PM ----------

(funny thing about that attack with the fingers penetrating the sternum... It was Scorpio's final and most powerful "scarlet needle" attack, Antares, named after the biggest star in the Scorpio constellation..... but there's also a chain of bakeries where I lived called "Antares"... so, naturally, every time we pass one someone screams "ANTARES!" and pokes you, hard, in the sternum. I did it once so hard to a buddy of mine that was driving that he had to pull over to writhe in pain)

Jun 21, 2010#48

Null

Smart move, there - hurt the dude that's driving.

Jun 21, 2010#49

AshburnerX

CynicismKills said:
Yeah, I can still remember waking up earlier than I needed to on weekdays to watch Ronin Warriors. I've got a couple of the toys around here somewhere...

Oddly enough, I had a Ronin Warriors baseball cap... like 5 years before I had ever seen the show. It was crazy.

Jun 21, 2010#50

General Specific

Jun 22, 2010#51

Soliloquy

General Specific said:
I was ruined for all other anime shows by watching Cowboy Bebop first. There are only a few series I have seen that are in the same vicinity, but none that are close to it.

Ditto. I haven't been trying too hard, honestly, but I haven't found anything that's satisfied my tastes as much as Bebop.

General Specific said:

Jun 22, 2010#52

fade

Bebop is good, but I've never thought it was the end-all be-all everyone seems to make it out to be.

Jun 22, 2010#53

Covar

I prefer Ghost in the Shell: Standalone Complex.

Jun 22, 2010#54

LordRendar

FMA:Brotherhood > Samurai Shamploo > GitS:SC > Black Lagoon > Cowboy Bebop

Jun 22, 2010#55

Covar

Tokusatsu > anime

Jun 22, 2010#56

AshburnerX

Covar said:
Tokusatsu > anime

If only it would catch on more in the US.

Jun 22, 2010#57

LordRendar

Tonkatsu?

Jun 22, 2010#58

Covar

I've found it's really only anime that can get away with subtitles and pick up a good size audience. Still Power Rangers ran for 17 seasons, was recently reacquired by Saban and will be getting an 18th (The Super Sentai it was based on, Samurai Sentai Shinkenger, was great btw).

Jun 22, 2010#59

AshburnerX

Covar said:
I've found it's really only anime that can get away with subtitles and pick up a good size audience. Still Power Rangers ran for 17 seasons, was recently reacquired by Saban and will be getting an 18th (The Super Sentai it was based on, Samurai Sentai Shinkenger, was great btw).

True, but I'd love to see a TRUE American Tokusatsu series. Right now, we're just splicing in footage from Japanese shows, over top of American produced drama. Why not just do the entire show in America and then export it to Japan?

Jun 22, 2010#60

Null

LordRendar said:
Tonkatsu?

I've had that before, it's delicious.

Jun 22, 2010#61

Covar

Null;403481][QUOTE=LordRendar said:
Tonkatsu?

I've had that before, it's delicious.[/QUOTE]

It really is.

Toku ^

Jun 22, 2010#62

AshburnerX

Jun 22, 2010#63

Soliloquy

Here's why I think Bebop is considered so great by so many:

1) It has very few of the features that turn most people off of anime: Annoying screechy voices, sudden use of chibi character designs and weird faces to emphasize that something going on is "funny," stock gags that barely humorous to begin with, horrible English dubbing that forces you to watch using subtitles, etc.

2) It has slick, fast-paced, grooving style in which stuff actually happens, instead of filling the episodes with people preparing to do stuff, talking about how they're going to do stuff, and reacting to stuff that's been done.

3) Some of the best animation ever in a TV series.

4) It touches on a number of philisophical and sociological issues, but never dwells on them -- it leaves the dwelling up to the viewer.

5) Legitimate tension, because the characters occasionally succeed, but fain more often than not.

6) Arguably the best soundtrack for any TV show, live action or animated, ever.

7) Spike Spiegel

8) Motherf*cking Spike Spiegel

9) SPIKE SPIEGAL GODDAMN IT!

So yeah, I'm sure there are plenty of other animes with better premises, more engaging overarching storylines, and possibly even better characters, but I think it's these qualities that make Bebop so popular in the eyes of many -- especially in the eyes of people who usually can't stand Anime.

Also, I'm not saying that Bebop is the only anime that has each of these qualities. It just combines them so well.

Jun 22, 2010#64

Null

I consider Bleach to be a guilty pleasure.

Jun 22, 2010#65

fade

Why guilty? I like it for the same reasons I like Naruto. It has a well-developed mythology that feels well fleshed out and large. The character designs are imaginative. I don't feel guilty at all about liking it. Hollow Ichigo in particular (the recent one that manifested against Ulquiorra) was a really nice design.

Jun 22, 2010#66

Null

Well, it's formulaic, but yes, I do like the character design. It's very easy to tell characters apart, which is rare in a lot of manga. Or, you know, Megatokyo and CAD.

Jun 22, 2010#67

Gusto

Bleach's mythology doesn't seem internally consistent, but that's probably a problem with LOTS of anime.

Naruto actually holds up pretty well... Hm.

Jun 22, 2010#68

CynicismKills

Gusto said:
Bleach's mythology doesn't seem internally consistent, but that's probably a problem with LOTS of anime.

Naruto actually holds up pretty well... Hm.

I think part of Bleach's problem is all the filler arcs since it was running pretty neck-in-neck with the manga releases. Without those it seemed a little more solid.

Jun 22, 2010#69

Gusto

CynicismKills;403681][QUOTE=Gusto said:
Bleach's mythology doesn't seem internally consistent, but that's probably a problem with LOTS of anime.

Naruto actually holds up pretty well... Hm.

I think part of Bleach's problem is all the filler arcs since it was running pretty neck-in-neck with the manga releases. Without those it seemed a little more solid.[/QUOTE]

Oh I'm not even considering that garbage, it clearly doesn't count.

Jun 22, 2010#70

wana10

my guilty please is finding shoujo series to watch...i try to avoid the never ending series like bleach/naruto/one piece though i did read hajime no ippo for a while.

Jun 22, 2010#71

CynicismKills

Gusto;403685][QUOTE=CynicismKills;403681][QUOTE=Gusto said:
Bleach's mythology doesn't seem internally consistent, but that's probably a problem with LOTS of anime.

Naruto actually holds up pretty well... Hm.

Jun 22, 2010#72

Gusto

What I mean is that there seems to be a lot of ambiguity (if not straight-up conflicting evidence) about how life and the afterlife works in Bleach, to say nothing of how one categorizes oneself between its multiple factions.

Jun 22, 2010#73

General Specific

Soliloquy said:
Here's why I think Bebop is considered so great by so many:

1) It has very few of the features that turn most people off of anime: Annoying screechy voices, sudden use of chibi character designs and weird faces to emphasize that something going on is "funny," stock gags that barely humorous to begin with, horrible English dubbing that forces you to watch using subtitles, etc.

2) It has slick, fast-paced, grooving style in which stuff actually happens, instead of filling the episodes with people preparing to do stuff, talking about how they're going to do stuff, and reacting to stuff that's been done.

3) Some of the best animation ever in a TV series.

4) It touches on a number of philisophical and sociological issues, but never dwells on them -- it leaves the dwelling up to the viewer.

5) Legitimate tension, because the characters occasionally succeed, but fain more often than not.

6) Arguably the best soundtrack for any TV show, live action or animated, ever.

7) Spike Spiegel

8) Motherf*cking Spike Spiegel

9) SPIKE SPIEGAL GODDAMN IT!

So yeah, I'm sure there are plenty of other animes with better premises, more engaging overarching storylines, and possibly even better characters, but I think it's these qualities that make Bebop so popular in the eyes of many -- especially in the eyes of people who usually can't stand Anime.

Also, I'm not saying that Bebop is the only anime that has each of these qualities. It just combines them so well.

10) Vicious

Jun 22, 2010#74

figmentPez

Anime in 5 Seconds

When are we going to get the ability to embed Blip videos?

Jun 23, 2010#75

CynicismKills

Gusto said:
What I mean is that there seems to be a lot of ambiguity (if not straight-up conflicting evidence) about how life and the afterlife works in Bleach, to say nothing of how one categorizes oneself between its multiple factions.

Jun 23, 2010#76

fade

Null said:
Well, it's formulaic, but yes, I do like the character design. It's very easy to tell characters apart, which is rare in a lot of manga. Or, you know, Megatokyo and CAD.

That's true, but when it comes down to it, just about everything is formulaic. Lord of the Rings is formulaic. It's the flesh you put on the bones that makes it interesting.

---------- Post added at 01:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:42 PM ----------

CynicismKills;403791][QUOTE=Gusto said:
What I mean is that there seems to be a lot of ambiguity (if not straight-up conflicting evidence) about how life and the afterlife works in Bleach, to say nothing of how one categorizes oneself between its multiple factions.

I see, I see. I haven't kept up to date on Bleach, so it's all a little hazy. I watched up to the fights with those numbered dudes, and it was somewhere in the battle with the young one with the tentacles.[/QUOTE]

I thought they've kept the necessary parts pretty clear. The factions are pretty straight forward, esp. if you've watched/read the "110 years ago" arc. They don't explain a whole lot about the afterlife, but I'm cool with that, because overexplaining it would be too much, and it's not really part of the story. Good dead go to the soul society, but apparently with no memory (explained in that movie with the shinigami who could remember her life as a human). Bad dead go to Hell. Hanging on to life or being devoured by a hollow makes you literally lose your heart and become a Hollow. Shinigami don't really kill Hollows, they just purify them, but Quincies actually kill them. Etc. etc.

Jun 23, 2010#77

Gusto

Alright how about this?

Hitsugaya is a captain who, as is necessary to become a captain, attained the level on bankai. Hitsugaya looks like he's 12 goddamned years old. This can be explained two ways.

1) Hitsugaya is some kinda shinigami genius who attained the level of bankai much faster than his adult colleagues.
2 Hitsugaya is no different from the other captains, but died and came to Soul Society as a child, and you don't age when you're dead.

Option 1 is disproven by Yoruichi, who tells Ichigo during his Bankai training that he will be using a special method that none of the captains have used, and that it normally takes hundreds of years to reach that level. So it should have taken the Kid roughly the same amount of time.

But that's okay because it's not like spirits age in Soul Society, right? Wrong. Renji and Rukia are clearly shown as children in Rukongai before developing spiritual power, aging slightly, and going off to the Shinigami Academy. They're now portrayed even older. Which is WEIRD because EVERYONE ELSE is ALWAYS SHOWN at the same age.

What's ironic is that most of the inconsistencies in fantasy-related television and media are often explained away by ~~*MAGIC!*~~, and in Bleach, a series that is basically about magic, a lot of inconsistencies can be explained away by ~~*SCIENCE!*~~, on te parts of either Uruhara, Aizen, or even Kurotsuchi.

Jun 23, 2010#78

fade

Not to geek out too much, but they've addressed this issue directly in the series. He's a prodigy, and his is young by shinigami standard. It's been mentioned that shinigami age much more slowly than humans, but they do age. I don't know his age, but I think that Yoroichi said it took 10 years of training normally (+ experience). Rukia isn't much older in appearance, and I think she's what 120 something? Finally, he hasn't finished his bankai training. As Shunsui (the coolest character in the series) mentions, Hitsugaya's bankai is incomplete.

Jun 23, 2010#79

Gusto

That sounds plausible.

THAT SAID, if Ichigo joins one more faction, I will flip my shit.

Human, shinigami, hollow, vaizard, etc. I'm waiting for his quincy powers to manifest.

Buhh.

Granted I love Bleach back when I first got into it and through the Soul Society arc and all that and now I'm just reading it for completion's sake, but that series is so goddamned frustrating.

Jun 23, 2010#80

fade

That I whole heartedly agree with.

You joke, but it's been speculated already that his mom was a Quincy. After all, he used Uryu's soul ribbon technique to find his shinigami powers. For yet another faction, a lot of people think that Isshin is the absent King.

Jun 23, 2010#81

Gusto

Buhh.

Jun 23, 2010#82

Covar

Jun 23, 2010#83

figmentPez

Gusto said:
Hitsugaya is a captain who, as is necessary to become a captain, attained the level on bankai. Hitsugaya looks like he's 12 goddamned years old. This can be explained two ways.

1) Hitsugaya is some kinda shinigami genius who attained the level of bankai much faster than his adult colleagues.
2 Hitsugaya is no different from the other captains, but died and came to Soul Society as a child, and you don't age when you're dead.

Those are hardly the only two possible explanations:

3) Hitsugaya had some sort of growth disorder in life, which also applies in the Soul Society. He's short and looks kid-like, despite being an adult.
4) He's an oddity of the Soul Society like Sajin Komamura (anthpomorphic wolf) or Jidanbo (32' tall). Physical appearance in the Soul Society doesn't seem to follow the same rules as in this life.

Jun 23, 2010#84

Gusto

figmentPez said:
4) He's an oddity of the Soul Society like Sajin Komamura (anthpomorphic wolf) or Jidanbo (32' tall). Physical appearance in the Soul Society doesn't seem to follow the same rules as in this life.

This doesn't make it better.

Jun 23, 2010#85

figmentPez

Gusto;404050][QUOTE=figmentPez said:
4) He's an oddity of the Soul Society like Sajin Komamura (anthpomorphic wolf) or Jidanbo (32' tall). Physical appearance in the Soul Society doesn't seem to follow the same rules as in this life.

This doesn't make it better.[/QUOTE]

Why not? If there are souls that are 32 foot tall giants, then why wouldn't smaller than average happen as well?

Jun 23, 2010#86

Gusto

figmentPez;404086][QUOTE=Gusto;404050][QUOTE=figmentPez said:
4) He's an oddity of the Soul Society like Sajin Komamura (anthpomorphic wolf) or Jidanbo (32' tall). Physical appearance in the Soul Society doesn't seem to follow the same rules as in this life.

This doesn't make it better.[/QUOTE]

Why not? If there are souls that are 32 foot tall giants, then why wouldn't smaller than average happen as well?[/QUOTE]

Fair enough, but WHY are there souls that appear as giant men or wolfmen?! Especially when they're clearly in the minority and no one really seems to pay them any special attention. Sure, Komomura wore a weird helmet for a while because he didn't wanna show his wolf face, but its not like anyone gave a crap when he decided to stay exposed after his bucket was destroyed.

It's ridiculousness for the sake of ridiculousness.

Actually, given the stark contrast, can you really argue that maybe Hitsugaya just has a kid's appearance despite being an adult soul? Occam's Razor seems to think that's a stretch at best.

Jun 23, 2010#87

Calleja

Occam's Razor can think now? :shocked:

Jun 23, 2010#88

Gusto

Yup it's alive and anthropomorphic.

Jun 23, 2010#89

figmentPez

Gusto said:
Fair enough, but WHY are there souls that appear as giant men or wolfmen?! Especially when they're clearly in the minority and no one really seems to pay them any special attention. Sure, Komomura wore a weird helmet for a while because he didn't wanna show his wolf face, but its not like anyone gave a crap when he decided to stay exposed after his bucket was destroyed.

It's ridiculousness for the sake of ridiculousness.

Actually, given the stark contrast, can you really argue that maybe Hitsugaya just has a kid's appearance despite being an adult soul? Occam's Razor seems to think that's a stretch at best.

Why do some have huge spiritual pressure and some don't? Why do some have zanpaktos and others don't? It jut seems to be the nature of the place that some people are special. Maybe being child-like in his appearance is a reflection of Hitsugaya's inner insecurities, or some other aspect of his personality.

Yes, I can argue that Hitsugaya appears to be a child while actually being an adult. There's never any mention of him being a child and, reading from a Bleach wiki, he gets annoyed at being mistaken for one. He also grew up with Momo Hinamori in the Soul Society, and she's an adult, so I don't see why she would be while he wasn't. To quote the wiki "When Momo had been in the Shinigami Academy for 5 years, he began to notice how he hadn't grown an inch." The wiki also says that he's the youngest captain in the history of the Soul Society, but that doesn't mean he's actually a child.

Jun 23, 2010#90

fade

I can abide the odd soul. Though I think Hitsugaya is fairly normal, and has been explained onscreen. What I don't get are the Zanpakutous. What are they supposed to be? It's not really necessary for the story, but it is a curiosity. At first, I thought they were a fraction of the wielder's soul, but the internal world sequences seem to refute that. And now (I must nerdily admit to reading some spoilers) in the very latest chapter it seems

Zangetsu once belonged to Aizen (oh and Aizen is Isshin's brother)

. What the hell? That certainly means their separate from the user. Are they some sort of familiar?

Jun 23, 2010#91

Gusto

Fine.

Bleach is still silly as hell.

Also you'll have to forgive me if I don't believe what somebody on a wiki has to say.

If it's not apparent from reading the series proper, then it's fanon.

Jun 23, 2010#92

Element 117

Gilman Chatsworth said:
ohh man anime nerd rage is usually the best.

+10 rep.

Jun 23, 2010#93

Gusto

B.T.;404138][QUOTE=Gilman Chatsworth said:
ohh man anime nerd rage is usually the best.

+10 rep.[/QUOTE]

Does it reflect poorly on me that I'm arguing very specific crap from the series that makes me NOT a fan of it?

I don't even know what side I'm on here anymore, if any.

Jun 23, 2010#94

Calleja

I still like Saint Seiya.

Jun 23, 2010#95

figmentPez

Gusto said:
Fine.

Bleach is still silly as hell.

Damn straight it's silly. Toshiro being a white Gary Coleman is just one of the less strange bit. There are a lot more puzzling aspects out there.

Also you'll have to forgive me if I don't believe what somebody on a wiki has to say. If it's not apparent from reading the series proper, then it's fanon.

It's all cited with issue and page number, and once they mentioned it I did recall a scene where Hitsugaya was annoyed at being mistaken for a child in the anime. It was in an episode where he was an Ichigo's school and someone thought he was a grade schooler. He got pissed at that. As for the other points, I don't specifically remember them, but I don't see how they're fan interpretation, there are screencaps of him and Momo growing up.

Jun 23, 2010#96

Gusto

What I mean is the fanon is open to interpretation. Toshiro getting angry because he's mistaken for a gradeschooler seemed like he was upset at being disrespected, as he's a captain in high standing.

And yeah, Momo's older than Toshiro but I figured it was by like maybe 5-7 years. Even Renji looks like he's in his early 20s, and Rukia looks like maybe 17.

Jun 23, 2010#97

Null

I don't think about it. I just enjoy it for what it is, and the character designs. And the reason Tite Kubo has the nickname he does. The cosplay for Bleach characters is often really well done.

Jun 23, 2010#98

figmentPez

Gusto said:
And yeah, Momo's older than Toshiro but I figured it was by like maybe 5-7 years. Even Renji looks like he's in his early 20s, and Rukia looks like maybe 17.

Aside from Yamamoto do any of the Captains look like they're the hundreds of years old necessary to achieve bankai? I wouldn't take appearance as an indication of age in Bleach.

Jun 23, 2010#99

Gusto

Well clearly not but THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING.

We've SEEN Byakuya, Rukia and Renji age while in the afterlife, but it's clear that Yamamoto hasn't changed at ALL in at least 110 years.

So which is it!? Or do people get to pick (at least subconciously) what they look like? Also disproven, as it was joked that Kenpachi spends hours doing his hair with the bells, people are scarred, and why would Komomura hide his appearance if it's what he wanted.

Buhh.

So yeah I tend to get a little nerdragey when creators do shit just for the sake of doing it and it gets super-conflicty.

Jun 23, 2010#100

AshburnerX

Komomura is the guy with the Badger face, right? Isn't it explicitly stated that he was re-incarnated and that he came back like that?

Jun 23, 2010#101

Element 117

Gusto;404142][QUOTE=B.T.;404138][QUOTE=Gilman Chatsworth said:
ohh man anime nerd rage is usually the best.

+10 rep.[/QUOTE]

Does it reflect poorly on me that I'm arguing very specific crap from the series that makes me NOT a fan of it?

I don't even know what side I'm on here anymore, if any.[/QUOTE]

NER-

HEY

SHUT UP AND PAINT

Jun 26, 2010#102

LordRendar

WHen can we see Capt. Kyouraku's Bankai?

on another note,watched a marathon session of Toradora! yesterday.It was good fun.

Jun 26, 2010#103

Iaculus

Aye, Toradora was one of those shows where after watching the first couple of episodes, I couldn't have believed that I'd become as invested in it as I was by the end. But I did. And actually sniffled a bit at the finale. Huh.

As for more recent stuff, Durarara's finale was pretty good (though Izaya still needs to get what's coming to him), and Heroman is still some very solid shonen.

Jun 26, 2010#104

LordRendar

Iaculus said:
Aye, Toradora was one of those shows where after watching the first couple of episodes, I couldn't have believed that I'd become as invested in it as I was by the end. But I did. And actually sniffled a bit at the finale. Huh.

As for more recent stuff, Durarara's finale was pretty good (though Izaya still needs to get what's coming to him), and Heroman is still some very solid shonen.

The ending of Durarara did seem kinda rushed.The Motorcycle Police was introduced,but got less than 2 Mins of screentime (I swear that guy reminds me of a more grizzled version from that cop in "You're Under Arrest) and what is gonna happen to Celtys head now that Izaya has it?So many questions left unanswered.On the plus note,the OP music was one of the best I heard in a long time.

Jun 26, 2010#105

Iaculus

Yeah, it seems a given that they're angling for a second season. Looks like they're going to get it, too.

I'd suspect that that's where the motorbike cop and Shinra's dad are going to start becoming relevant - they seem to be the second half of Season 1's equivalent to Shizuo in the first half. Brief cameos setting the stage for later goodness.

Gotta say, though, we desperately need some more Mikado-related badassery in Season 2. Achilles did not properly emerge from his tent this time round.

Jun 28, 2010#106

tegid

Gusto said:
We've SEEN Byakuya, Rukia and Renji age while in the afterlife, but it's clear that Yamamoto hasn't changed at ALL in at least 110 years.

The first 3 were born in Soul Society, while Yamamoto comes from a dead human. I think there might be something there...

---------- Post added at 09:37 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:35 AM ----------

fade said:
Zangetsu once belonged to Aizen (oh and Aizen is Isshin's brother)

. What the hell? That certainly means their separate from the user. Are they some sort of familiar?

Where the hell did you read that? Did I skip some page??

---------- Post added at 09:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:37 AM ----------

Also, this thread made me read FMA. A good shounen, it is.

Anyone read Hunter x Hunter? It's another shonen that doesn't fall into most of the cliches of the genre (i.e. the power of friendship is all-powerful, the main characters train a bit and they are suddenly muuuuuuuuch stronger, etc.)

Jun 28, 2010#107

Gusto

tegid said:
The first 3 were born in Soul Society

THIS MAKES EVEN LESS SENSE :Leyla:

Jun 28, 2010#108

tegid

Gusto;406273][QUOTE=tegid said:
The first 3 were born in Soul Society

THIS MAKES EVEN LESS SENSE :Leyla:

[/QUOTE]

I'm pretty sure that IS stated in the manga... There are families of shinigami, which are those that live in the central city, and then there are those who live in the slums or whatever. The second ones rarely get to be shinigami. Isn't it like this? Did I imagine it all?? :Leyla:

Jun 28, 2010#109

LordRendar

Iaculus said:
Gotta say, though, we desperately need some more Mikado-related badassery in Season 2. Achilles did not properly emerge from his tent this time round.

I loved the episode where he mobilized the whole Dollars Gang.I really want to see him become more of an Pupetteer type,kinda the Anti-Izaya.

*When do we get our one Anime Sub-Forum anyway?

----------------------------------

It kinda makes sense if you look at the Shinigami being a whole different race then the Human souls that they Harvest/Protect/Ferry(whatever they do with them).Thus they can procreate and age.I dont think it was mentioned once that anyone from the Shinigami was a Human that died and was reborn as a Shinigami.

Think of them as Angels maybe in Christian Religion, they live in Heaven alongside the Human Souls,yet arent Human.

Jun 28, 2010#110

Allen, who is Quiet

tegid said:
Anyone read Hunter x Hunter? It's another shonen that doesn't fall into most of the cliches of the genre (i.e. the power of friendship is all-powerful, the main characters train a bit and they are suddenly muuuuuuuuch stronger, etc.)

Yo.

So how about them chimera ants having orgasms at the prospect of their king gaining nourishment from their flesh?

Jun 28, 2010#111

tegid

Allen said:
Anyone read Hunter x Hunter? It's another shonen that doesn't fall into most of the cliches of the genre (i.e. the power of friendship is all-powerful, the main characters train a bit and they are suddenly muuuuuuuuch stronger, etc.)

Yo.

So how about them chimera ants having orgasms at the prospect of their king gaining nourishment from their flesh?[/QUOTE]

Welll those chapters were not so good...

But I actually liked that bit, I think. It showed their inhuman nature and showed how for that royal guard the well being of the king is extasy. Maybe I liked it because I didn't really connect it with sex. How blind I was!

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