I have to pay taxes now; you're fired!

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All right, I'm being nitpicky here, but 5% is a far cry from 30%. That makes about 70% of the projected decline due to factors aside from government regulations. I also don't understand where you're getting 30% from; 56 out of 320 is 17.5%.

-edit-

Ah, never mind, I understand now, I was misreading what you wrote. Let this stand as testament to my shitty reading comprehension.
 
Sorry about that, likely my fault. My english is far from perfect, so I might not always be able to express myself satisfactorily.

I think perhaps a significant point is that, aside from the coal plants currently under construction, no new plants are projected to be built at least until 2030 in the study. Coal demand is estimated to decrease by 7% in 2012, and to remain flat for 2013, according to the EIA estimates I cited earlier. Coupled with the reductions in capacity (of which 30% are due to EPA regulations) and the absence of newly built capacity (assuming the study accurately reflects future projects in this regard), this might reflect very poorly on the prospects of coal. Which will likely lead to further personnel layoffs in the coal industry.
pdf said:
Visibly absent is new coal capacity; through 2030, no new coal generation is projected to be built in either case except for the units that began construction prior to this analysis, which are not included in this chart. Although the Policy Case does not include the EPA’s proposed New Source Performance Standard for greenhouse gases—which would essentially require any new coal capacity to include carbon capture and sequestration—these results would not be impacted by such a requirement, because of the lack of new coal builds.
...
Coal generation has seen a decline in recent years that is expected to continue.
 
So let me get this straight. We're supposed to let rich people walk all over the common folks or they'll hold the economy hostage, isn't that what these CEOs are going for?
 
Okay with stuff like this happening, WHY THE HELL HASN'T THE REVOLUTION HAPPENED YET?! I mean DAMN! You go to a punk show and you hear about how much people hate the government, but what are they changing? NOTHING! They just whine and whine and pretend like their doing something when they are doing nothing! If I had the money...I would take it all down.
 
Honestly, I'd be completely happy with the complete abolition of corporate entities as a whole and go to a true supply and demand economy that relies on small businesses.

Capitalism is one of the best economic systems, but when it's abused by large special interests, it no longer works off of traditional economic models.
 
Honestly, I'd be completely happy with the complete abolition of corporate entities as a whole and go to a true supply and demand economy that relies on small businesses.

Capitalism is one of the best economic systems, but when it's abused by large special interests, it no longer works off of traditional economic models.
And it gets even worse when capitalists defend themselves by saying " I earned this money, so why should I pay taxes" bull-shit. Most of the money industrialists make are made from their workers hard efforts and they are a small piece of the pie.
 

Zappit

Staff member
So let me get this straight. We're supposed to let rich people walk all over the common folks or they'll hold the economy hostage, isn't that what these CEOs are going for?
That's what Congressional Republicans have been doing the last few years, and their cohorts in the Senate decided to follow suit. The fiscal cliff looks to be their next exploitable target. Thing is, if we hit it, the results will be noticeable, but not a disaster like failing to raise the debt ceiling. Obama could call their bluff, and let the Republicans take the full force of the blame they earned.

But this guy in the news post - what a jackass. I'd love to see a real criminal investigation announced into this guy's record - announced on his birthday.
 
So let me get this straight. We're supposed to let rich people walk all over the common folks or they'll hold the economy hostage, isn't that what these CEOs are going for?
I'm not saying the EPA regulations necessarily 'bad', that may be a topic for another discussion. But what I am saying is that they will result in common folks loosing their jobs. If a powerplant closes down due to regulations, then most of the people working there are out of a job, and their suppliers will end up with that much excess capacity that they need to figure out what to do with.

Nothing unusual about that, and you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs. No revenge or plutocratic conspiracies necessary, just perfectly normal business.
Honestly, I'd be completely happy with the complete abolition of corporate entities as a whole and go to a true supply and demand economy that relies on small businesses.

Capitalism is one of the best economic systems, but when it's abused by large special interests, it no longer works off of traditional economic models.
If you don't mind, I'd like to ask you a few questions regarding your idea.

How would your economic model with it's small businesses handle competition from foreign industrial conglomerates with their cheap products due to economies of scale? Protectionism and export subsidies? And do I understand correctly that you would use regulatory measures to prevent successful small businesses from becoming not-so-small businesses?
 
Because you're living better than anyone has ever lived before, ever.
But not everybody is living as good as me, which is the problem. For every guy whose living comfortably there are five guys eating rats for dinner just to get by. How the hell can I enjoy my splendor knowing there are people who are screwed out of getting the chance, and that I could easily lose my comfort at any time. I like what I have, but unless everybody is able to have a warm house to sleep in I won't be satisfied.
 
For every guy whose living comfortably there are five guys eating rats for dinner just to get by.
Umm, I'm pretty sure the poverty rate (and abject poverty by the way you describe it there) isn't 83.3% in the USA. That's what 1 good for 5 "holy shit bad" means. Actual stats are useful (though look up what a person living at the poverty line has) but hyperbole is not.

And look up Russian (Soviet) history when they made sure that "everybody" was able to have a warm house to live in and what they did to ensure that shortly after the revolution.
 

Necronic

Staff member
Coal is dying because of natural gas. Why is this even an argument? This is common knowlege. Sure some of the EPA/regulatory policies are quickening it's death, but why in gods name would we allow them to loosen their environmental regulations just to allow them to compete with a cleaner, cheaper, safer (so far *fingers crossed*), and honestly a more accountable industry.

Coal dug it's own black grave. Now they can sleep in it.
 
Coal is dying because of natural gas. Why is this even an argument? This is common knowlege. Sure some of the EPA/regulatory policies are quickening it's death, but why in gods name would we allow them to loosen their environmental regulations just to allow them to compete with a cleaner, cheaper, safer (so far *fingers crossed*), and honestly a more accountable industry.

Coal dug it's own black grave. Now they can sleep in it.
I'm actually not 100% sure what the argument currently is since it's branched off a bit. But I think the original discussion was about the layoffs mentioned in the OP: were they out of spite (or something of the kind), or were there actual sound economic reasons at play such as declining demand for coal.

I believe everyone can agree that the decline in coal demand has to do with many factors, competition from natural gas included.
 

Necronic

Staff member
I guarantee the timing of the layoffs were based on spite. Real businesses don't work like that. There are proper fiscsal cycles that determine these things. Presidential elections influence them. They don't determine them.

I mean shit, if he thinks he's got it bad he should go talk to the defense industry. EVERY ELECTION is a massive change in their situation. But do you see the head of Lockheed Martin standing up and saying "Oh I'm so sorry guys we're laying you all off because Obama was elected I'm so sorry let's now pray to god".

Of course not. You know why? Because they are run like a grown-up business. Something Coal never learned how to do.
 
How would your economic model with it's small businesses handle competition from foreign industrial conglomerates with their cheap products due to economies of scale? Protectionism and export subsidies? And do I understand correctly that you would use regulatory measures to prevent successful small businesses from becoming not-so-small businesses?
Actually, most of that would be sorted out quickly by repealing corporate personhood. I know it's a super extreme stance that is unrealistic, but I recall being a kid and having the local hardware store, deli, bakery, movie house, etc... EVERY SINGLE ONE is closed now, replaced by a Walmart or other corporatized business. It is ridiculous and is the main reason we're a service economy now, which is just a fiscal house of cards. As it stands, the corpratocracy that is in place in America will lead to our downfall as a nation.
 
I guarantee the timing of the layoffs were based on spite. Real businesses don't work like that. There are proper fiscsal cycles that determine these things. Presidential elections influence them. They don't determine them.

I mean shit, if he thinks he's got it bad he should go talk to the defense industry. EVERY ELECTION is a massive change in their situation. But do you see the head of Lockheed Martin standing up and saying "Oh I'm so sorry guys we're laying you all off because Obama was elected I'm so sorry let's now pray to god".

Of course not. You know why? Because they are run like a grown-up business. Something Coal never learned how to do.
So I take it we agree that laying people off was a decision based on business realities in the form of decreasing demand of coal. The question remaining being why did they let the people go now, instead of like a month earlier, when they had finalised their budgets for the next term and likely identified the need for a reduction in capacity. In a sense, why did they keep about 160 people on the payroll for a month longer than necessary, and fire them now?

I might speculate along three different avenues.

1) Economic. With the election result, any chance of a pro-business Romney administration reversing EPA legislation and general government energy policy had vanished, along with chances for improvement in the prospects of coal
2) Political. People afraid for their jobs are more likely to vote for a candidate seen as favoring their industry, than people who have been fired by said industry. And Romney's platform of job creation might have suffered some loss of credibility if his supporters start firing people before the election, similarly to the case of neutral Boeing. Now, the guy had an opportunity to frame the layoffs in a more favorable light
3) Personal. Hey, he got to stick it to the evil Kenyan muslim socialist

With any combination of these three, and the absence of reasons to the contrary (reasons that I can see anyway), there was absolutely no sense in keeping these people on the payroll any longer.

Personally, I'd think the reasons a sensible business manager could fall for tend towards 1, and I can believe 2. But I think 3 requires some other factors at play.
Actually, most of that would be sorted out quickly by repealing corporate personhood. I know it's a super extreme stance that is unrealistic, but I recall being a kid and having the local hardware store, deli, bakery, movie house, etc... EVERY SINGLE ONE is closed now, replaced by a Walmart or other corporatized business. It is ridiculous and is the main reason we're a service economy now, which is just a fiscal house of cards. As it stands, the corpratocracy that is in place in America will lead to our downfall as a nation.
Well, I must say I disagree with nearly everything you stated there. We can discuss our respective views on the points further, if you are willing.

But I can certainly empathize with the allure of the 'Mom and Pop' store. We had those here, too. Not so many remain anymore.
 
Umm, I'm pretty sure the poverty rate (and abject poverty by the way you describe it there) isn't 83.3% in the USA. That's what 1 good for 5 "holy shit bad" means. Actual stats are useful (though look up what a person living at the poverty line has) but hyperbole is not.

And look up Russian (Soviet) history when they made sure that "everybody" was able to have a warm house to live in and what they did to ensure that shortly after the revolution.
Dammit Jim, I'm a ranter not a mathematician! Also I was talking more big picture than just America, but I'm sure that's not the right statistic either. Course no matter what the statistic, the poor people we have are still fucking poor.

And yes I am aware of Soviet Russia, I took History class as well. It was not a true socialism, and sucked just as much as any capitalist society.
 
Wait, you have statistical analysis for that?

From my search, World Health Organization as of 2004 said roughly 120 died due to lack of food. That's not including statistics of people who are malnourished due to poverty.
 
Dammit Jim, I'm a ranter not a mathematician! Also I was talking more big picture than just America, but I'm sure that's not the right statistic either. Course no matter what the statistic, the poor people we have are still fucking poor.
This only means you haven't met -really- poor people.
 
Of course, that same source also says

Starvation rates in the United States are generally not recorded due to the relative infrequency of the occurrence. Generally speaking, most people do not starve to death in America as a result of lack of access to food. A combination of government food programs and private charities help to ensure this. However, Americans do have a serious problem with malnutrition. Starvation (that is, death due to lack of food) in America, in the relatively rare instances that it does occur, is not usually an indication of poverty but rather a variety of other social issues.


So, malnutrition is a problem, but Americans actually starving to death is rare due the safety nets we have in place through private organizations and government programs.
 
Well, I just don't see it that way. If it has been established that there may be sound business reasons why to fire those people, then they will lose their jobs anyway and that's that. What difference does it really make if the company blames government policy for the financial situation?
Then the legitimate rape party gets 48% of the vote, that's the problem.


I read the same. 56 GW worth of coal fired capacity is to be retired by 2016, and 16 GW of it is estimated to be due to EPA regulations, making for about 30%.
So it's 70% not Obama's fault... which makes it totally Obama's fault guys.

Also, energy demands are still rising, so the % of people actually fired because of new regulations that favour other energy generation types should be able to find jobs in the energy industry, just not with coal (obviously not the same people necessarily).[DOUBLEPOST=1352988505][/DOUBLEPOST]
Because you're living better than anyone has ever lived before, ever.
And yet Bhutan has higher happiness ratings... it's almost as if over-consumption of goods isn't a good metric of a good life.
 
Then the legitimate rape party gets 48% of the vote, that's the problem.
But now that the Democrats have won the election, they will surely turn the United States into a socialist dictatorship, destroy traditional marriage, and give children the gay! :aaah:
So it's 70% not Obama's fault... which makes it totally Obama's fault guys.

Also, energy demands are still rising, so the % of people actually fired because of new regulations that favour other energy generation types should be able to find jobs in the energy industry, just not with coal (obviously not the same people necessarily).
40% greater capacity drawdowns up to 2016, and no new capacity starting to be built, partly due to more stringent restrictions hampering their competitiveness.

Nobody is saying the company story is an unbiased account with no other interpretations possible, but it might be equally wrong to say that it is completely groundless.

As to the people being laid off, it is certainly not like they will spend the rest of their lives unemployed. Whether in the energy production/mining industries, or as waitresses and Walmart greeters, hopefully they will find new jobs and suffer no greater hardships than anyone else the world over who has lost their jobs as a result of the global economic crisis. Doesn't make it fun when people lose their jobs, though.
And yet Bhutan has higher happiness ratings... it's almost as if over-consumption of goods isn't a good metric of a good life.
Plato's Cave, and all that.
 

Necronic

Staff member
And yet Bhutan has higher happiness ratings... it's almost as if over-consumption of goods isn't a good metric of a good life.
I think a better statement is that if you've had it good your entire life you take it for granted. Which is what most Americans do (myself included.)
 
40% greater capacity drawdowns up to 2016, and no new capacity starting to be built, partly due to more stringent restrictions hampering their competitiveness.

Nobody is saying the company story is an unbiased account with no other interpretations possible, but it might be equally wrong to say that it is completely groundless.
Problem is that by that logic a lot of other laws, like against slavery etc., also gets in the way of profit, and they could blame anything on the government because at least party it's their fault for enforcing rules.

Plato's Cave, and all that.
Except that the only way Plato's Cave would affect happiness in the way you're implying is if you're aware of the next level of, lets say comfort, which again implies that unlike the bhutanese western people see better conditions then they have at a constant enough rate to cause want.

I mean i don't see any way to argue that being on a higher level of the cave (having more stuff) would instantly make you less happy just by being at that level.
 
Problem is that by that logic a lot of other laws, like against slavery etc., also gets in the way of profit, and they could blame anything on the government because at least party it's their fault for enforcing rules.
Perhaps you could assist me be clarifying what the logic you refer to here is, and what the similarities are between EPA regulations and slavery abolition acts.
Except that the only way Plato's Cave would affect happiness in the way you're implying is if you're aware of the next level of, lets say comfort, which again implies that unlike the bhutanese western people see better conditions then they have at a constant enough rate to cause want.

I mean i don't see any way to argue that being on a higher level of the cave (having more stuff) would instantly make you less happy just by being at that level.
If memory serves, the people chained in the cave were also quite happy, spending their time at guessing about the shadows on the walls.

The industrial revolution brought products, that had previously been the province of the wealthy, to within reach of the common man. This is generally considered to be a good thing, and the benefits accrued to the middle- and lower classes. Regretfully, there are some places in the world that are not as weall-off as others, and do not have access to the same level of standard of living. But perhaps that will change in time, and those places will also come to fully enjoy the fruits of human invention.
 

Necronic

Staff member
Honestly, I'd be completely happy with the complete abolition of corporate entities as a whole and go to a true supply and demand economy that relies on small businesses.

Capitalism is one of the best economic systems, but when it's abused by large special interests, it no longer works off of traditional economic models.
Yeah, Screw mass production! Totally ruined this country.
 
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