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I hope you weren't too attached to Dollhouse!

#1

Charlie Don't Surf

The Lovely Boehner

because. well. It's cancelled. Joss Whedon failed to find an audience again? holy shit how did that happen????????????

alternate post: Fox screwed over good sci-fi again? holy shit how did that happen??????????


#2

drawn_inward

drawn_inward

I am Jack's complete lack of surprise.


#3

@Li3n

@Li3n

and i knew not watching it was the right choice... now when i see it in the future my rage will only be half of what it would be if i had seen it when it aired...


#4



Iaculus

Love the Serenity ad on this page.


#5



Kitty Sinatra

meh


#6



Chibibar

now I'm sad :(


#7

Green_Lantern

Green_Lantern

The real reason it was cancelled is because I started watching, I am sorry :(


#8

Espy

Espy

Lame. It wasn't great but it was better than most of the crap on the basic tv channels.


#9

Green_Lantern

Green_Lantern

Also: Source?


#10

Charlie Don't Surf

The Lovely Boehner

http://www.variety.com/article/VR11...562&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed


#11



Kitty Sinatra

Whedon's gonna announce the cancellation via twitter? He should've done it back when we had that contest. That would've scared the life out of enough of y'all, he would've won.


#12

Charlie Don't Surf

The Lovely Boehner

Gruebeard said:
Whedon's gonna announce the cancellation via twitter? He should've done it back when we had that contest. That would've scared the life out of enough of y'all, he would've won.
Click to expand...
The "twitter" in the link just means that I got to the article via the Variety twitter feed.


#13



Kitty Sinatra

Dude. Read your own smurfing link:

Whedon was set to announce the news to his army of loyalists via Twitter this afternoon
Click to expand...


#14

Charlie Don't Surf

The Lovely Boehner

Gruebeard said:
Dude. Read your own smurfing link:

Whedon was set to announce the news to his army of loyalists via Twitter this afternoon
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
I admittedly did not read it at all, since I don't really care about Dollhouse.


#15

Fun Size

Fun Size

Pity. I was pretty on the fence on the show, and then I saw the unaired episode on the DVD. Between that and the season thus far, I was starting to get into it. My bad. At least he gets to end this one, unlike Firefly. "Merry Christmas - you're all fired."


#16



TotalFusionOne

My views on Fox:

They buy a lot of shows that are being shopped around not to air them themselves, but in order to make sure no one else airs them. Fireflys perfect spot would have been Sunday nights at 8 or 9 which would have gone head on with Simpsons/Family Guy. It would have wrecked the Fox lineup and forced many people just to DVR what they normally would watch, so they bought up Firefly and drove it into the ground.

Dollhouse and Sarah Conner have similar stories. Nothing. For. Adults. Airs. On. Friday. Night. Period. It doesn't work. It's never worked. Family shows and old people shows is all that should go there.


#17

Charlie Don't Surf

The Lovely Boehner

TotalFusionOne said:
My views on Fox:

They buy a lot of shows that are being shopped around not to air them themselves, but in order to make sure no one else airs them. Fireflys perfect spot would have been Sunday nights at 8 or 9 which would have gone head on with Simpsons/Family Guy. It would have wrecked the Fox lineup and forced many people just to DVR what they normally would watch, so they bought up Firefly and drove it into the ground.
Click to expand...
Everything you just said is wrong. They buy shows for the same reason anyone buys shows: they think they'll make them money.


#18



elph

I have a theory that Dollhouse wasn't meant to live that long. That (if I'm remembering this all correctly) Joss only had a contract with Fox for 4 new shows and that Dollhouse was #4 (Buffy, Angel, & Firefly being the other 3). This now frees him from Fox's clutches and open to shop around.


#19

AshburnerX

AshburnerX

elph said:
I have a theory that Dollhouse wasn't meant to live that long. That (if I'm remembering this all correctly) Joss only had a contract with Fox for 4 new shows and that Dollhouse was #4 (Buffy, Angel, & Firefly being the other 3). This now frees him from Fox's clutches and open to shop around.
Click to expand...
Except Buffy and Angel started out on the WB, not Fox.


#20



Kitty Sinatra

And what you're saying is that both Fox and Whedon put their money, time and creativity into making something they wanted to fail.

They both wanted it to last, man. Even if it was the last show Whedon was gonna make for Fox.


#21

Dieb

Dieb

It was a pretty damn good show. Probably the darkest network show I've ever watched, which is probably why it never found an audience. So it goes.


#22

MindDetective

MindDetective

AshburnerX;297088][quote=elph said:
I have a theory that Dollhouse wasn't meant to live that long. That (if I'm remembering this all correctly) Joss only had a contract with Fox for 4 new shows and that Dollhouse was #4 (Buffy, Angel, & Firefly being the other 3). This now frees him from Fox's clutches and open to shop around.
Click to expand...
Except Buffy and Angel started out on the WB, not Fox.[/QUOTE]

It is a Fox property, though. http://www.foxhome.com/buffysplash/


#23



TotalFusionOne

Charlie Dont Surf;297084][quote=TotalFusionOne said:
My views on Fox:

They buy a lot of shows that are being shopped around not to air them themselves, but in order to make sure no one else airs them. Fireflys perfect spot would have been Sunday nights at 8 or 9 which would have gone head on with Simpsons/Family Guy. It would have wrecked the Fox lineup and forced many people just to DVR what they normally would watch, so they bought up Firefly and drove it into the ground.
Click to expand...
Everything you just said is wrong. They buy shows for the same reason anyone buys shows: they think they'll make them money.[/QUOTE]

Then why didn't they air Firefly correctly?


#24

Charlie Don't Surf

The Lovely Boehner

TotalFusionOne said:
Then why didn't they air Firefly correctly?
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They thought a more action-oriented series premiere would suck in the average viewer.


#25

Green_Lantern

Green_Lantern

True Calling wasn't Whedon creation and fox show as well?


#26

KCWM

KCWM

Well, fuck.
Wish it could find a home on Syfy.


#27



TwoBit

I'm still surprised it got a second season before it was inevitably canceled.


#28



Reboneer

Green_Lantern said:
True Calling wasn't Whedon creation and fox show as well?
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It was a Fox show, but not a Whedon creation. It also really, really sucked.


#29



elph

Reboneer;297291][quote=Green_Lantern said:
True Calling wasn't Whedon creation and fox show as well?
Click to expand...
It was a Fox show, but not a Whedon creation. It also really, really sucked.[/QUOTE]

I like to think I'm very forgiving for most shitty shows. I'll tend to at least try to keep my critisim contained to how the specific show is being handled and not compare it too much to other shows of it's type...

With that being said... I caught a marathon on Sci Fi (I refuse to call it by that.. other name) a couple times of Tru Calling. To say that it 'really really sucked' is still giving it far too much credit. This show did not give me much hope for the acting talent of Eliza, and still, she plays a wonderful blank in Dollhouse, but crappy any thing else.


#30



Chibibar

I actually kinda like Dollhouse. It took me a while to get "into it" so I'm sad.

8-9pm on a Friday is a bad time for many viewer group (16-30 give or take) most people around that age usually go OUT on a Friday night.

So my "conspiracy theory" is that Fox DID want it to fail, if they didn't should have put on a more prime time slot like Thursday or Sunday.


#31

Kovac

Kovac

oh, that that Scott Kurtz

Such shenanigans he produces...


#32

SpecialKO

SpecialKO

It's too bad, but in the end, for whatever reason/fault, I agree that I don't think they knew who there audience was supposed to be.

I think Joss had his own idea, and Fox had their ideas, and I'm sure some of the other folks involved had their own ideas, but it never really seemed to mesh outside of a couple of the better episodes (and the unaired one).

And at the end of the day, a product that doesn't know who their audience is can't succeed.


#33



Alex B.

I'm not surprised. I stopped watching it near the end of the first season, but I feel bad for the people who really liked it.

I would love love love to see Dichen Lachman (Sierra) in a Queen and Country style espionage series.


#34



Joe Johnson

I liked it. It wasn't a perfect show by any means, but certainly better than many of the shows that DON'T get cancelled.


#35

fade

fade

How to make a Whedon show.

Step one: Attractive girl with superpowers. Bonus points for making her stupid. Center story around this girl

Step two: Write a bunch of dialogue that sounds vaguely like the way people really talk, esp. regarding pop culture. Make it rambling and geek-like, yet strangely foreign, so that the net result is like watching a play of geeks talking.

Step three: hit trope-filled cast of five or so. Include bad-ass nerd and the bumbling normal who occasionally gets a moment to shine

Step four: Fill with unfleshed, poorly explained antagonists.

etc. etc.


#36



Mr. Lawface

fade said:
How to make a Whedon show.

Step one: Attractive girl with superpowers. Bonus points for making her stupid. Center story around this girl

Step two: Write a bunch of dialogue that sounds vaguely like the way people really talk, esp. regarding pop culture. Make it rambling and geek-like, yet strangely foreign, so that the net result is like watching a play of geeks talking.

Step three: hit trope-filled cast of five or so. Include bad-ass nerd and the bumbling normal who occasionally gets a moment to shine

Step four: Fill with unfleshed, poorly explained antagonists.

etc. etc.
Click to expand...
That doesn't really work for Firefly.


#37

SpecialKO

SpecialKO

Mr. Lawface;300930][quote=fade said:
How to make a Whedon show.

Step one: Attractive girl with superpowers. Bonus points for making her stupid. Center story around this girl

Step two: Write a bunch of dialogue that sounds vaguely like the way people really talk, esp. regarding pop culture. Make it rambling and geek-like, yet strangely foreign, so that the net result is like watching a play of geeks talking.

Step three: hit trope-filled cast of five or so. Include bad-ass nerd and the bumbling normal who occasionally gets a moment to shine

Step four: Fill with unfleshed, poorly explained antagonists.

etc. etc.
Click to expand...
That doesn't really work for Firefly.[/QUOTE]

Firefly is troperiffic - you recognize all the traditional cliches, but they've been stewed to a fine perfection.


#38



crono1224

I don't get using the word troperrific, wouldn't every show be that, I mean since there is pretty much a trope for everything....


#39

fade

fade

Mr. Lawface;300930][quote=fade said:
How to make a Whedon show.

Step one: Attractive girl with superpowers. Bonus points for making her stupid. Center story around this girl

Step two: Write a bunch of dialogue that sounds vaguely like the way people really talk, esp. regarding pop culture. Make it rambling and geek-like, yet strangely foreign, so that the net result is like watching a play of geeks talking.

Step three: hit trope-filled cast of five or so. Include bad-ass nerd and the bumbling normal who occasionally gets a moment to shine

Step four: Fill with unfleshed, poorly explained antagonists.

etc. etc.
Click to expand...
That doesn't really work for Firefly.[/QUOTE]

What? Firefly was one of the main ones I was using to write that.

1. River (she may not be the protagonist, but the story floats around her)
2. Most of what Mal and Wash say
3. Wash is the bumbling normal, the doc is the bad-ass nerd. You've got your standard Lancer in the black chick, etc.
4. We never learn much about any of the baddies. The movie explains a little more, but not much.

---------- Post added at 07:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:49 PM ----------

For the record, I liked Firefly. But it was just about the only Whedon show I liked. I thought Buffy and Angel were just plain stupid. I thought he did a much better job with the Buffy movie, and the funny thing is that I seem to recall reading his complaints about how he hated it because he was so constrained or something like that.


#40

Green_Lantern

Green_Lantern

crono1224 said:
I don't get using the word troperrific, wouldn't every show be that, I mean since there is pretty much a trope for everything....
Click to expand...
There is such think as aversion, subversions and inversions as well, and sheer trope/per pound content. xD


#41

SpecialKO

SpecialKO

crono1224 said:
I don't get using the word troperrific, wouldn't every show be that, I mean since there is pretty much a trope for everything....
Click to expand...
At least from a tvtropes perspective, "troperiffic" refers to a show that actually acknowledges and revels gloriously in its tropes, as opposed to a show that just employs a lot of tropes.

As the article notes, YMMV as to whether a show is troperiffic or just a Cliche Storm.


#42



Joe Johnson

Sooooooooooo....are we done talking about Dollhouse?

The new episode/s from Friday were OK - was this episode rewritten to reflect the beginning of the end? I think he was rewriting some of the episodes, since this is now the last season.


#43

Charlie Don't Surf

The Lovely Boehner

This thread was more talking about Dollhouse getting canceled than talking about Dollhouse


#44

Espy

Espy

The last 2-parter was pretty solid. Enjoyed the double Topher.


#45

Ravenpoe

Ravenpoe

Double Topher was FANTASTIC.


I really enjoy Dollhouse. I'll be sad to see it go.


#46

KCWM

KCWM

Yeah...the guy that plays Victor nailed Topher. That was pretty good.

I really enjoyed the episodes. I'm sad to see the series go. ED might not be a great actress, but the world was interesting, especially knowing that the world depicted in Epitaph One was where the series was going to go.

And I will admit that I didn't see the "twist" coming regarding the senator.


#47



The Pumes

I wanted Dollhouse to live, and I play to an omnipotent god that it survives in one form or another. That or I just both Topher's and Viktor's actors to hit it big.


#48

Seraphyn

Seraphyn

I stopped watching 2 eps into season 2 myself. It's been a while, but those eps were just incredibly boring. I hope Whedon has a fitting ending for it though, cause I'll probably watch it someday.


#49



Joe Johnson

I have found this season to be hit or miss - though I enjoyed the direction of the last episode.


#50



Gill Kaiser

Charlie Dont Surf;297122][quote=TotalFusionOne said:
Then why didn't they air Firefly correctly?
Click to expand...
They thought a more action-oriented series premiere would suck in the average viewer.[/QUOTE]

So they're not malicious, just incompetant?


#51

Ravenpoe

Ravenpoe

Cancellation is the best thing to have happened to this series.

I mean, has anyone been watching this last half of the season? FUCK! It's really ramping up!

I can't wait to find out what they took away from Ballard to get his mind working again... but I have some theories.

Ballard: "Alpha's getting away!"
*steals a kid's bike, jumping on it before looking confused*
"..... FUCK!"


#52

Bowielee

Bowielee

I agree, the quality of the episodes has skyrocketed since the announcement of the cancellation.


#53

SpecialKO

SpecialKO

Bowielee said:
I agree, the quality of the episodes has skyrocketed since the announcement of the cancellation.
Click to expand...
No joke, it really makes you wonder about the level of Fox involvement in what came before if this is what they get after they close the curtains.

I actually thought it was 50/50 Joss/Fox this time around. Apparently, I owe him an apology.


#54

Charlie Don't Surf

The Lovely Boehner

I don't know the production schedule of Dollhouse off the top of my head, but it's extremely likely the whole series was already shot/in the can before the cancellation decision was made.


#55

Rob King

Rob King

I think I read somewhere that they had 9 episodes shot when the announcement was made, which only gives the writers a little wiggle room to write an ending ... if they even bother. The last episode is named "Epitaph Two" and I'm very very excited to see where that goes.


#56

Ravenpoe

Ravenpoe

Yeah, I also thought I had read somewhere (though no idea where, now) that Joss knew halfway through filming of this season that they were getting canned, and had much rewritten to wrap things up by season's end.


#57

Bowielee

Bowielee

Loving where the season is going, though, I kind of wish I hadn't watched Epitaph: One now. It's kind of a spoiler to everything that's happening right now.


#58

Rob King

Rob King

Bowielee said:
Loving where the season is going, though, I kind of wish I hadn't watched Epitaph: One now. It's kind of a spoiler to everything that's happening right now.
Click to expand...
I kind of like it. It's like watching a train wreck happen, that you know is going to happen, but you can't do anything to stop it.

I'm really afraid of where the series is going to end, though. Obviously the Epitaph One world is where we're heading, but it'll suck to just leave the story there.


#59

klew

klew

Where they left this latest episode

reminds me of the ending of Angel, where the team joined up and made a plan to take down the bad law firm


#60



Joe Johnson

Well, the previews for the last three episodes sort of imply it might not end there - with characters saying, "There's still time to stop it", etc.

So, will it all go to sheesh? Or will they take down the company before they can screw things up...and the epitaph one is more of a "warning of what could happen".


#61

R

Raemon777

I think the last two episodes will show everything going to hell, but with Echo figuring out where sanctuary is and/or how to resist the wipes. The last episode is called Epitaph 2, which presumably ends with them fixing the bulk of the damage.


#62

KCWM

KCWM

klew said:
Where they left this latest episode

reminds me of the ending of Angel, where the team joined up and made a plan to take down the bad law firm
Click to expand...
Yeah, even with the fake out that they pulled in Angel too...where they build up that Angel is going evil to fit in with the Circle of the Black Thorn, or whatever it was. So, when everyone else goes to face angel to take him out, Angel uses the spell to make it look like they are fighting while he explains the plan.


#63

Bowielee

Bowielee

Rob King;319171][quote=Bowielee said:
Loving where the season is going, though, I kind of wish I hadn't watched Epitaph: One now. It's kind of a spoiler to everything that's happening right now.
Click to expand...
I kind of like it. It's like watching a train wreck happen, that you know is going to happen, but you can't do anything to stop it.

I'm really afraid of where the series is going to end, though. Obviously the Epitaph One world is where we're heading, but it'll suck to just leave the story there.[/QUOTE]

The last episode of the second season is Epitaph Two, I'm assuming it continues where the last one left off.


#64

R

Raemon777

Gah!

(spoiler version)
GAAAAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!


#65

Rob King

Rob King

WHATTHEFUCK??!?

I remember reading a short story years ago about a bunch of kids who start a rooftop garden on an apartment building. At the end of the story, the building's superintendent has the janitor go up to throw out the vegetables and destroy the garden. Before he gets a chance, though, the kids destroy it themselves, rather than let someone else get their mitts all over their creation and hard work.

I feel almost like that's where this is going. Whedon is saying "We're canceled anyhow. How can we fuck this up beyond belief?" I mean, did this episode even make sense? I honestly don't know. My brain is overloaded from what's happened, and I can't even judge it at this point. But it feels like too much.

And for good measure:
WHATTHEFUCK??!?


#66

Dieb

Dieb

It made basic sense to me. Some motivations have not yet been explained, but I feel confident they will be in the last episodes.


#67

R

Raemon777

No, I am confident this was planned from the beginning. We'll find out whether it actually makes sense next week.

Real spoilers this time:

Seriously what the hell? Gah!

Okay for real for real:

It is worth remembering that Boyd has always been intentionally shrouded in mystery. There's multiple times when someone asks why he works at the Dollhouse when he appears to be a pretty decent guy, and the show very deliberately doesn't let us learn the answer. I've often wondered what kind of backstory he could possibly have that would deliver on the suspense. Everything I thought of wasn't extreme enoughg to be worth the secrecy. Well, this certainly was worth the wait.

Other things worth recollecting:

Boyd probably was the one who reprogrammed Saunders as a sleeper to kill Bennet. Probably to slow down the team from getting Caroline's memory (of Boyd) for a little while longer.

Boyd (as we know him) might not even be the real Boyd. He (or, hell, the "head of the company" version of him, could be a doll.

Boyd has always served a rather significant purpose of being a metaphorical father figure. He cares for Echo like a daughter. Yet he has always been complicit in her "domestication" (if you managed to get this far without knowing the whole show is a feminist metaphor about reclaiming your own power and identity, um, well now you know. Go google your way into a variety of interviews and analysis). Knowing that he is not merely complicit but actively responsible radically changes the metaphor, although we won't know for sure how until next week.


#68

Rob King

Rob King

But ... but ...
I need Boyd to be a good guy.

Although I recognize that the meaning of the things that have happened might not be completely clear. There's another episode in which everything can change again/further.


#69

R

Raemon777

It's possibly that Boyd realized that no matter how he might control the company, the technology would get out of control. We know that Clyde 1.0's brain is being used to run simulations on ways the world might NOT end, so Boyd could be trying to prevent that. Which would stil make him an asshole for imprisoning Clyde 1.0 and starting the dollhouse in the first place, but not the worst of the people in the show)


#70

Dieb

Dieb

Right, Boyd COULD be doing a "greater good" thing here. We know approximately why he was a handler in the LA Dollhouse - to observe and further the development of Echo's ability to integrate multiple personalities. The questions are 1) how did he know Caroline would have this ability? 2) Why does he want this ability? It could be that, in true villian fashion, he doesn't want to be affected by his own world-ending device. After all, you don't release a killing virus into the world unless you know it won't affect you. Similarly, in a world where anyone can be wiped, he would want the ability to keep his own original personality.

Another possibility is that he forsaw the end of the world as soon as Clyde 1.0 invented brain wiping. It's not too big a stretch to see that, in a world where people's personalities can be completely reworked, a future like Epitaph One is almost inevitable. The only way to stop it is to find a way to resist wiping. Boyd figured that out, and started Rossum specifically to find such a way. Perhaps all the evil they do is in an effort to stop the end of the world


#71

Rob King

Rob King

I can't wait to see the final episode, and then Epitaph 2.


#72



JCM

I hope you weren't too attached to Dollhouse!
Click to expand...
*locks door, gets ready for the torchlight bearing lynch mob*
Never watched it.


#73

R

Raemon777

I can forgive you for that since the early episodes (and corresponding reviews) were pretty Meh. But it has gotten very good by the end. And fortunately, since they were sort of planning for cancellation the entire time, it looks like they managed to make the two seasons very self contained, so it won't feel like we're missing anything when it's over.


#74

Bowielee

Bowielee

I can't believe no one has commented on this yet. Loved the end of the series. Everything pretty much got tied up. I'm glad they directly continued from Epitaph 1.

Now for the spoilerifics

Agent Ballard. I think Eliza Dukshu actually showed some uncharacteristic talent in her reaction to his death. Though, I thought the whole uploading him into her personality matrix was kinda "meh". I also wanted to know how Whiskey came to be locked up in the Dollhouse in Epitaph 1.

Overall, I thought they did a good job with the show and will definitely be getting them on DVD. Though, people who only watched the show as it aired were probably confused not having seen Epitaph 1. I downloaded it through iTunes, that's the only reason I saw it.


#75

Rob King

Rob King

All I can say is that I now know there is a lot of story missing between the end of the real series, and the epitaph episodes. I hope that gets filled in somehow, with books preferably, although I suspect comic books are the way they'll go if they go at all.


#76



Joe Johnson

"Did he just call me a ludite?"


#77

Rob King

Rob King

I liked friendly Alpha. That's the part I'm most curious about: how did that come about?!


#78

Bowielee

Bowielee

Rob King said:
I liked friendly Alpha. That's the part I'm most curious about: how did that come about?!
Click to expand...
We won't know until Dollhouse: The Movie (you know it's coming).


#79

Espy

Espy

Bowielee;337282][QUOTE=Rob King said:
I liked friendly Alpha. That's the part I'm most curious about: how did that come about?!
Click to expand...
We won't know until Dollhouse: The Movie (you know it's coming).[/QUOTE]

Fantastic ending to what became (slowly) a good series. I still would much rather have had 2 full seasons of Firefly than this but... ya' take what you can get.


#80

Rob King

Rob King

Bowielee;337282][QUOTE=Rob King said:
I liked friendly Alpha. That's the part I'm most curious about: how did that come about?!
Click to expand...
We won't know until Dollhouse: The Movie (you know it's coming).[/QUOTE]

Oh, I don't know it, but I can certainly hope.


#81

Ravenpoe

Ravenpoe

I loved the end of the series. I had to download epitaph one before I let myself watch epitaph 2. Glad I did, because I wouldn't have known what the fuck was going on.

I'm still lost on some of it.

Echo: Alpha...

Alpha: Echo...

*hug*

Poe: WHAT THE FUCK?!

Topher continued to be my favorite character. I felt so bad for him that I was actually relieved he managed to at least partially undo his wrongs in a valiant way. Adelle mothering him seemed unusually sweet, and really portrayed the guilt she felt.

The tech heads were cool, I imagine them being a big part in the post dollhouse pre-epitaph story that maybe will exist someday, but for now I actually like it being somewhat mysterious. Just a glimpse into what the spread of that kind of technology could possibly cause.


#82

ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

I figure Alpha's involvment in the end was a combination of inheriting Ballard's personality when last we saw him...and one of those "the enemy of my enemy..." type situations.

He was still Alpha, though. "Victor! Who butchered that beautiful face!" Heh.


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