Is Healthcare a Right?

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GasBandit

Staff member
Heh, sayanythingblog had an interesting phraseology on this yesterday -

the guiding principle of our country is “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.” Note that statement doesn’t specifically guarantee happiness but rather your ability to pursue it.
The problem with a lot of liberals is that they seem to think that everything they want is a right, and that rights mean that other people have a responsibility to help you exercise that right. All rights mean is opportunity. Free speech means you have the opportunity to speak out, not that someone has to give you a platform to speak from. Free religion means you have a right to believe (or not believe) as you wish. Not that someone has to subsidize your beliefs.
Gun rights mean you have the opportunity to own guns. Not that people have to buy guns for you so you can exercise those rights.
Health care is not a right, but even if it were it still wouldn’t mean that the rest of society has the resopnsibility to provide it to you. You have the freedom to be prosperous and care for yourself.

Interesting point. If a right to healthcare means everybody has to pay for the individual's healthcare, why aren't you guys buying me guns? I have a right to bear arms that is being infringed by my ability to pay for them!
 
Gotcha.

Saying that the hospital takes a loss kinda raises another little question

Just from watching the tv show er, I get the impression that there are publicly funded hospitals, and privately funded (businesses essentially) hospitals. Is this the case? And if so do the private hospitals even have emergency rooms, and if they do are they more stringent in the paperwork?

I'm starting to get curious on the details of how the system functions.
This was actually my profession for many years. I was an analyst for the collection of medical bills.

First and foremost, regardless of being private or public, hospitals are businesses.

The hospital and clinic system I worked for was non-profit, which is in and of itself an oxymoron because any business is built on making a profit. The only difference is where that profit is spent. I can't really speak to the private hospitals, but from what I understand they work almost exactly the same as non-profit hospitals, except that the CEOs and other board members rake in more of the profit, rather than reinvesting it in growth.

There are 2 different systems, clinical systems and hospital systems. Clinical systems focus more on specialties and non emergent stuff, the hospital system focuses on emergent care and are more often then not used for any sort of non-ambulatory care(inpatient hospital stays).

It is ILLEGAL for any hospital to turn down an emergent case. So, even though I am a staunch liberal, I do have to agree that we ALREADY have the right to healthcare. It is already built into our hospital systems and government. To argue that we don't is retarded.

The cost associated with that healthcare is the issue, and that what's muddying the waters in the argument. Some people are equating "free healthcare" to "access to healthcare" and they are 2 completely seperate things.

I admit my personal bias when it comes to the issue, but I can't blame the healthcare system for the breakdown of healthcare at all, I place the blame firmly on the shoulders of the insurance companies. They don't do what they were originally intended to do, and quite frankly, with all the bullshit they pull, they are the very reason that healthcare bills are so high in the first place. Most compensation for hospitals are obtained through insurance, so their incessant denial of claims and lowering of fee scales is what is pushing up basic healthcare cost.

If hospitals do not raise their fees to match, they will not be able to expand and buy that shiny new MRI machine that will save hundreds of thousands of lives every year.

Also, any state that I'm aware of REQUIRES that hospitals and clinics have some sort of charity care program for low income individuals, so in essence, they already do provide free health care for low income people.

The problem is when it comes to upper lower-class through the middle class. they are the ones being gouged with extremely high insurance premiums and high deductibles that make it nearly impossible to afford their health care. This is a huge issue because the middle class make up the majority of our population. Hospitals are actually losing money at this point while insurance companies are making profits.
 
Great, I make a detailed post with good points just in time for the thread to be moved and die in the political forum.
 
Great, I make a detailed post with good points just in time for the thread to be moved and die in the political forum.
Don't think this Thread is dead just yet. The political boards have 2 types of threads. Those that get 2 posts, and those that have 200. This looks to be of the later.
 
C

Chibibar

Bowielee: this is what my friends who works at hospital feels the same way (and tell me stuff when they can)

The insurance company is what really screwing people. It is a vicious cycle really. Hospital do have to make money in order to stay in business. They have to pay people and bills too.

This is why I think Obama's system is not the solution. It is not the answer. The problem is pretty deep and it would take some serious work to turn it around which the way U.S. economy works, it will not happen :(
 
J

JCM

Specially Starship Troopers, I love the concept of only having rights AFTER serving the government.
There's something attractive to this. Also, we spent about a week and a half in my political philosophy class just talking about Starship Troopers.[/QUOTE]
GasBandit;254947 said:
Like my economics books say "Ain't no such thing as a free lunch."
Heh, careful, last time I started talking like that, somebody accused me of getting all my political views from Heinlein novels.
Looking at the state of your country´s economy, looks like some people need to read his novels.

Specially Starship Troopers, I love the concept of only having rights AFTER serving the government.
There's definitely something to be said for full enfranchisement only coming after military service, that's for sure. But that's another thread. I liked "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" better than starship troopers anyway, as far as political sci-fi goes.

I can't take any extremist seriously, sorry.

Far right Conservatism is the bastion of the fearful. Like it or not, the world changes and is flexible (even in nature) is the given rule of thumb for those who want to change with it. I'll ask you this, since most hard-core conservatives are also hard core Christians. Who do you worship? If your answer is Jesus, you're basing your faith in a radial, left wing nut job who went completely against the conservative mainstream of his lifetime.

But my biggest problem is that conservatives take any issue and try to make it as black and white, good guys vs. bad guys as possible. That's also not how reality works.
That depends on which way you're defining conservatism - the classical definition which means being "reactionary," or the contemporary definition which means "emphasizing personal responsibility over societal responsibility."

I will say though, if an issue isn't black or white, it just means perspective isn't broad enough.[/QUOTE]It also the only viable solution to countries like the UK, that are being overrun with immigrants who instead of adapting to the country, instead protest to make the country adapt to them.

That would be how I give someone any right. WORK for the country, prove that you arent just some freeloading immigrant, then you get rights, ala Brazil, where a male can only get a voter´s card (aka the right to vote) after proving he has passed the obligatory 1 year army service.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
I still like what that guy said on the blog I linked. Some people just don't understand what it means for something to be a right... it means nobody can prevent you from obtaining something under your own power, not that somebody has to give it to you at no expense or inconvenience to you.

People who think otherwise obviously have never *really* had their rights violated. And I'm not talking about somebody stealing something from you, I'm talking about, when was the last time the government forced you to house troops in your home, whether you wanted to or not, and to add insult to injury, didn't compensate you for it? When was the last time you were jailed for your political beliefs? When was the last time you were executed for being a catholic?? These events were all par for the course for governments of the era when the constitution was written, THAT was what is REALLY meant to have a right violated. Not having to pay for your own doctoring.
 
K

Kitty Sinatra

It also the only viable solution to countries like the UK, that are being overrun with immigrants who instead of adapting to the country, instead protest to make the country adapt to them.
Dude. You want to be Canadian and yet you just negatively describe exactly what Canada is (although you refer to the UK). Canada wants to be shaped by its immigrants. To a degree, of course: There are certain core values that make Canada what it is, and we hopefully don't compromise those values while embracing the changes our immigrants will bring.
 
It also the only viable solution to countries like the UK, that are being overrun with immigrants who instead of adapting to the country, instead protest to make the country adapt to them.
Dude. You want to be Canadian and yet you just negatively describe exactly what Canada is (although you refer to the UK). Canada wants to be shaped by its immigrants. To a degree, of course: There are certain core values that make Canada what it is, and we hopefully don't compromise those values while embracing the changes our immigrants will bring.[/QUOTE]

like your tv? brilliant way to get Hollywood to make shows in your country though.
 
A

Armadillo

Specially Starship Troopers, I love the concept of only having rights AFTER serving the government.
There's something attractive to this. Also, we spent about a week and a half in my political philosophy class just talking about Starship Troopers.[/QUOTE]

There's NOTHING attractive about that. In America, the whole idea of inalienable rights is that they're yours by virtue of being alive, and the government can not take them away from you without due process. Remember-the Constitution and the government PROTECT your rights, they don't GRANT them.
 
K

Kitty Sinatra

It also the only viable solution to countries like the UK, that are being overrun with immigrants who instead of adapting to the country, instead protest to make the country adapt to them.
Dude. You want to be Canadian and yet you just negatively describe exactly what Canada is (although you refer to the UK). Canada wants to be shaped by its immigrants. To a degree, of course: There are certain core values that make Canada what it is, and we hopefully don't compromise those values while embracing the changes our immigrants will bring.[/QUOTE]

like your tv? brilliant way to get Hollywood to make shows in your country though.[/QUOTE]

What? What the hell does television have to do with culture?


Ha!


No, actually, I just mean to say that I haven't a clue how immigrants shaping a country relates to Americans making their TV shows in Vancouver and Toronto. You must have some reason to connect the two, but I can't figure it out.

---------- Post added at 12:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:06 AM ----------

There's NOTHING attractive about that. In America, the whole idea of inalienable rights is that they're yours by virtue of being alive, and the government can not take them away from you without due process. Remember-the Constitution and the government PROTECT your rights, they don't GRANT them.
The only thing - as I recall - that was granted by military service in the fictional world of Starship Troopers was Enfranchisement -essentially, the right to vote or run for office (and the running for office part is only inferred with a bit of logical thought.)

It seems to stem from the American system that holds the president as the leader of the army - and thus the army and government are intimately entwined - and the practice of some nations (like Israel and Switzerland, I believe) to require mandatory military service.

When I read Starship Troopers, I never considered the philosophy inside as anything more than a sci-fi exaggeration of these real world examples. Consequently, I think that readers who glom onto this philosophy as some great idea are silly geeks. It's as silly as getting your history from Xena: Warrior Princess.

D'ya grok?
 
I got the tv thing from your countries requirement for X amount of television to be Canadian. As it was explained to me this is to keep the American tv shows and culture from taking over the Canadian airwaves.
 
A

Armadillo

There's NOTHING attractive about that. In America, the whole idea of inalienable rights is that they're yours by virtue of being alive, and the government can not take them away from you without due process. Remember-the Constitution and the government PROTECT your rights, they don't GRANT them.
The only thing - as I recall - that was granted by military service in the fictional world of Starship Troopers was Enfranchisement -essentially, the right to vote or run for office (and the running for office part is only inferred with a bit of logical thought.)

It seems to stem from the American system that holds the president as the leader of the army - and thus the army and government are intimately entwined - and the practice of some nations (like Israel and Switzerland, I believe) to require mandatory military service.

When I read Starship Troopers, I never considered the philosophy inside as anything more than a sci-fi exaggeration of these real world examples. Consequently, I think that readers who glom onto this philosophy as some great idea are silly geeks. It's as silly as getting your history from Xena: Warrior Princess.

D'ya grok?[/QUOTE]

I'm pickin' up what you're puttin' down.
 
J

JCM

It also the only viable solution to countries like the UK, that are being overrun with immigrants who instead of adapting to the country, instead protest to make the country adapt to them.
Dude. You want to be Canadian and yet you just negatively describe exactly what Canada is (although you refer to the UK). Canada wants to be shaped by its immigrants. To a degree, of course: There are certain core values that make Canada what it is, and we hopefully don't compromise those values while embracing the changes our immigrants will bring.[/QUOTE]Why do you think Im studying French for?

Unlike most immigrants, some of us have the decency to learn the language, culture and customs, immigrate bringing money to be invested in that country AND abide by that country´s rules.

It has worked wonders, and bagged me Malaysian and Singaporean citizenships, allowed me to get a visa to the US time after time without a hitch (whereas most brazilians have to go through months of waiting and never get it), and is much better than the shit we see in France, US and UK-That is immigrants whose only purpose for coming is to get money off from that country, and bitch how that country is not to their liking.
Specially Starship Troopers, I love the concept of only having rights AFTER serving the government.
There's something attractive to this. Also, we spent about a week and a half in my political philosophy class just talking about Starship Troopers.[/QUOTE]

There's NOTHING attractive about that. In America, the whole idea of inalienable rights is that they're yours by virtue of being alive, and the government can not take them away from you without due process. Remember-the Constitution and the government PROTECT your rights, they don't GRANT them.[/QUOTE]Thats the problem when your country´s money, defense and welfare, which comes from mostly a hard-working middle class, goes to paying immigrants who like I said, come mostly to get money.

As long as citizenship and rights are cheap stuff to be given out to everyone who wants to make money off your country, and give nothing back, you´ll never be able to have proper public healthcare and welfare.

Now, if an immigrant comes in legally, pays taxes, abides by the law, serves the country and culture of the country that is his host, then yes, he has the right to public healthcare, like in Malaysia, where I was able get free consultation and medicine, even when I didnt have a citizenship yet,.
 
Politics are politics, but that site is virulently racist.
A 'site' can't be racist. PEOPLE can. If some people are racist, I can't control that any more than I can control Shego killing people. As long as I'M not racist, what does it matter what the people around me think?
 
C

Chazwozel

Politics are politics, but that site is virulently racist.
A 'site' can't be racist. PEOPLE can. If some people are racist, I can't control that any more than I can control Shego killing people. As long as I'M not racist, what does it matter what the people around me think?[/QUOTE]

Great minds think alike... /eyeroll

---------- Post added at 01:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:40 PM ----------

Heh, sayanythingblog had an interesting phraseology on this yesterday -

the guiding principle of our country is “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.” Note that statement doesn’t specifically guarantee happiness but rather your ability to pursue it.
The problem with a lot of liberals is that they seem to think that everything they want is a right, and that rights mean that other people have a responsibility to help you exercise that right. All rights mean is opportunity. Free speech means you have the opportunity to speak out, not that someone has to give you a platform to speak from. Free religion means you have a right to believe (or not believe) as you wish. Not that someone has to subsidize your beliefs.
Gun rights mean you have the opportunity to own guns. Not that people have to buy guns for you so you can exercise those rights.
Health care is not a right, but even if it were it still wouldn’t mean that the rest of society has the resopnsibility to provide it to you. You have the freedom to be prosperous and care for yourself.

Interesting point. If a right to healthcare means everybody has to pay for the individual's healthcare, why aren't you guys buying me guns? I have a right to bear arms that is being infringed by my ability to pay for them!
Sigh...same ol' gas taking complex issues and trying to make them black and white. Although, being a radio DJ, it's pretty much your job to dumb down complex issues for your audience into bit size morsels they can digest.
 
K

Kitty Sinatra

Unlike most immigrants, some of us have the decency to learn the language, culture and customs, immigrate bringing money to be invested in that country AND abide by that country´s rules.
Is there actually a wealthy country in the world that doesn't expect that of their immigrants?

The sort of immigrant you describe seem to be colonizers from wealthy countries looking to exploit a poor nation.
 
Politics are politics, but that site is virulently racist.
A 'site' can't be racist. PEOPLE can. If some people are racist, I can't control that any more than I can control Shego killing people. As long as I'M not racist, what does it matter what the people around me think?[/QUOTE]

Great minds think alike... /eyeroll[/quote]

Yes, because Guilt by Association works outside of high school...
 
K

Kitty Sinatra

Hey, Guilt By Association worked during the Great Commie Hunt of '50
 
IF I held extreme conservative views, I wouldn't be proud of free republic dot com or stormfront dot org.
You're going to find extreme views on any political website, CrooksAndLiars, DU, Politico, DailyKos, HuffPost - and I post to all of them. I'm not proud of any particular website - it's like being proud of a screwdriver.

Try reading the sites that you're talking about; except for Stormfront. That's definitely a neo-nazi website.
 
Yes, there are an abundance of retards on the Internet. If you want to see full retardation on display, read the Creation/Evolution threads. It's all facepalm, all the time.

Another classic is that stupid fake Kenyan Birth Certificate that was posted on FR. I spent untold hours debunking the damn thing all throughout this thread:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2307402/posts
 
L

Le Quack

Politics are politics, but that site is virulently racist.
A 'site' can't be racist. PEOPLE can. If some people are racist, I can't control that any more than I can control Shego killing people. As long as I'M not racist, what does it matter what the people around me think?[/QUOTE]

Great minds think alike... /eyeroll

---------- Post added at 01:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:40 PM ----------

Heh, sayanythingblog had an interesting phraseology on this yesterday -

the guiding principle of our country is “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.” Note that statement doesn’t specifically guarantee happiness but rather your ability to pursue it.
The problem with a lot of liberals is that they seem to think that everything they want is a right, and that rights mean that other people have a responsibility to help you exercise that right. All rights mean is opportunity. Free speech means you have the opportunity to speak out, not that someone has to give you a platform to speak from. Free religion means you have a right to believe (or not believe) as you wish. Not that someone has to subsidize your beliefs.
Gun rights mean you have the opportunity to own guns. Not that people have to buy guns for you so you can exercise those rights.
Health care is not a right, but even if it were it still wouldn’t mean that the rest of society has the resopnsibility to provide it to you. You have the freedom to be prosperous and care for yourself.

Interesting point. If a right to healthcare means everybody has to pay for the individual's healthcare, why aren't you guys buying me guns? I have a right to bear arms that is being infringed by my ability to pay for them!
Sigh...same ol' gas taking complex issues and trying to make them black and white. Although, being a radio DJ, it's pretty much your job to dumb down complex issues for your audience into bit size morsels they can digest.[/QUOTE]



WAIT!

Gas Bandit is a radio DJ? A politcal pundit?
This explains everything.

---------- Post added at 06:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:21 PM ----------

Politics are politics, but that site is virulently racist.
A 'site' can't be racist. PEOPLE can. If some people are racist, I can't control that any more than I can control Shego killing people. As long as I'M not racist, what does it matter what the people around me think?[/QUOTE]

Great minds think alike... /eyeroll[/quote]

Yes, because Guilt by Association works outside of high school...[/QUOTE]

It does where the law concerns drugs.
 
I don't think it really matters what he does. It's kind of a prick move to associate what someone does in real life as indicative of their opinion.
 
C

Chazwozel

I don't think it really matters what he does. It's kind of a prick move to associate what someone does in real life as indicative of their opinion.
Please, you did that to yourself a couple pages back... "I grew up in a blue collar town, blah blah..."
 
Sigh...same ol' gas taking complex issues and trying to make them black and white. Although, being a radio DJ, it's pretty much your job to dumb down complex issues for your audience into bit size morsels they can digest.
Aren't we an elitist.
 
C

Chazwozel

Sigh...same ol' gas taking complex issues and trying to make them black and white. Although, being a radio DJ, it's pretty much your job to dumb down complex issues for your audience into bit size morsels they can digest.
Aren't we an elitist.[/QUOTE]

Yes, sir. Fuck all you guys that make less money than I do. You don't deserve health care. You don't even deserve to lick the dust off my shoes.
 
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