Is income inequality unjust, and if so, where is the injustice?

PatrThom

PatrThom

Ravenpoe said:
This thread is about asking if income inequality is unjust. Most people here outside of steinman and the guy with the increasingly unironic Mr Burns avatar seem to think so.
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I can see why you think that about @TommiR , but I don't know as Steinman is one who believes there is no divide.

As for landlords being morally bankrupt, I disagree. Being a landlord does not automatically mean a person is morally bankrupt. It is quite possible to be a landlord who responsibly provides shelter and so on to the people who need it without being a greedy asshole, but due to the opportunities such a profession provides, it is one that unfortunately attracts the sort of person who enjoys treating tenants as nothing more than a crop to be harvested for the money they contain. Similarly it is entirely possible to be an MMA fighter because you enjoy the thrill and opportunity to display your skill, but the position is also going to attract a lot of people who get into it solely because they see it as an opportunity to get their jollies by hurting others "for free," so to speak.

--Patrick
 
MindDetective

MindDetective

I was a landlord because I couldn't sell my house except at a tragic loss during the market crash after 2008. I was not financially stable enough to take on that loss, so renting was my only real option.
 
Vrii

Vrii

MindDetective said:
I was a landlord because I couldn't sell my house except at a tragic loss during the market crash after 2008. I was not financially stable enough to take on that loss, so renting was my only real option.
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That's very different than "I'm going to buy this eighth property because I prefer that the money poor people spend on housing create value for me instead of them" though, yeah?
 
Ravenpoe

Ravenpoe

MindDetective said:
I was a landlord because I couldn't sell my house except at a tragic loss during the market crash after 2008. I was not financially stable enough to take on that loss, so renting was my only real option.
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So I thought about including niche scenarios, like the family down on their luck renting a room out of their house to try to make extra income, or scenarios like yours, but I like to think these people would be willing to catch random hands now and then if it meant all the other landlords get their shit kicked in regularly.
 
Bubble181

Bubble181

MindDetective said:
Which is why I shared my story. Not all landlords are Landlords.
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Which is why I asked. I'm on the phone so don't want to make a long post right now, but... Some landlords are evil jackasses. Slumlords are evil? Sure, fine. Corporations like JLL or whatever using large housing sites as money farms are evil? Damn right. All owners of a house that is rented out are evil? Nonsense.
 
D

Dubyamn

PatrThom said:
I can see why you think that about @TommiR , but I don't know as Steinman is one who believes there is no divide.

As for landlords being morally bankrupt, I disagree. Being a landlord does not automatically mean a person is morally bankrupt. It is quite possible to be a landlord who responsibly provides shelter and so on to the people who need it without being a greedy asshole, but due to the opportunities such a profession provides, it is one that unfortunately attracts the sort of person who enjoys treating tenants as nothing more than a crop to be harvested for the money they contain. Similarly it is entirely possible to be an MMA fighter because you enjoy the thrill and opportunity to display your skill, but the position is also going to attract a lot of people who get into it solely because they see it as an opportunity to get their jollies by hurting others "for free," so to speak.

--Patrick
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I'm sure there were slave holders who treated their property well. Doesn't make the institution or the action of owning another person any less reprehensible.

I'm not saying that being a landlord is the moral equivalent of being a slave owner just pointing out that there being good people doing a thing doesn't mean the thing isn't fundamentally evil.
 
Bubble181

Bubble181

Dubyamn said:
I'm sure there were slave holders who treated their property well. Doesn't make the institution or the action of owning another person any less reprehensible.

I'm not saying that being a landlord is the moral equivalent of being a slave owner just pointing out that there being good people doing a thing doesn't mean the thing isn't fundamentally evil.
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@Ravenpoe did not say owning and renting out property was inherently evil, but that all landlords are by default immoral. There's a difference.
 
PatrThom

PatrThom

Dubyamn said:
I'm sure there were slave holders who treated their property well. Doesn't make the institution or the action of owning another person any less reprehensible.
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I don't disagree that "owning" another person is reprehensible. But if you were to purchase a slave as a means of removing them from that market, treat them like a human being, and even give them full autonomy over their own life so that the only thing making/keeping them a "slave" is a piece of paper somewhere with those words written on it (which both of you are completely ignoring), then are you really a slave "owner?" Or are you just Oskar Schindler?

--Patrick
 
D

Dubyamn

PatrThom said:
I don't disagree that "owning" another person is reprehensible. But if you were to purchase a slave as a means of removing them from that market, treat them like a human being, and even give them full autonomy over their own life so that the only thing making/keeping them a "slave" is a piece of paper somewhere with those words written on it (which both of you are completely ignoring), then are you really a slave "owner?" Or are you just Oskar Schindler?

--Patrick
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I would argue that you aren't a slave owner then. So the point remains if you are a slave owner you are evil. If you would allow me to claim that the holocaust might be an outlier for our purposes.
 
@Li3n

@Li3n

Meh, it's not like landlording is some special situation that warrants it's own special issues.

It's just another aspect of people hoarding wealth while others have to do without because of it.

That being said, there are some situations where temporary housing make sense, for stuff like students, or seasonal workers etc. so it's not completely unjustifiable.
 
ScytheRexx

ScytheRexx

Just wanted to say, but being a landlord isn't in itself a bad thing. It's what you do afterwards that is the moral failing. Raising the rent for an already established family because the market goes up, even though that would put more pressure on the family so that you can make more profit, is not a moral option, it's almost akin to extortion, considering moving to a new place in of itself can be a huge expense in both time and resources. Now if the family moves out and you are putting it back on the market at the higher rate? That is more reasonable.
 
figmentPez

figmentPez

Staff member
@Li3n said:
That being said, there are some situations where temporary housing make sense, for stuff like students, or seasonal workers etc. so it's not completely unjustifiable.
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True, but even in those situations, landlords are infamous for going out of their way to avoid any legal responsibility for the upkeep of the housing they provide. It's a fundamentally broken system.
 
@Li3n

@Li3n

figmentPez said:
True, but even in those situations, landlords are infamous for going out of their way to avoid any legal responsibility for the upkeep of the housing they provide. It's a fundamentally broken system.
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I mean, ensuring basic upkeep should be handled by legislation.
 
sixpackshaker

sixpackshaker

Anecdote time...

My brother and fiance rented a 2bed, 1bath over the garage apartment 30 years ago for $300. They steam cleaned every surface they could and had to clean the toilet with a hammer and chisel. Then painted the place with their own money because they planned to live there over 2 years. The landlord came to visit and saw all the work they did to improve the property and tried to change the rent to $500.

Luckily the landlord took my brother seriously when he threatened to whip his ass.
 
@Li3n

@Li3n

Look, it's not what you call it, it's how you negotiate the price...

Not their fault the voters counter-offer is lacking...
 
GasBandit

GasBandit

Staff member
I bet those millionaires could pool their resources and then somehow a Paveway would mysteriously make its way into the runway at EHTA, shortly replaced by a large crater.
 
blotsfan

blotsfan

I mean, ignoring the jokes at millionaires, I'd have to assume the town has regular people too that now don't have an airport they can use.
 
mikerc

mikerc

blotsfan said:
I mean, ignoring the jokes at millionaires, I'd have to assume the town has regular people too that now don't have an airport they can use.
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That's optimistic of you. I'm assuming that regular people were already unable to use the airport.
 
AshburnerX

AshburnerX

mikerc said:
That's optimistic of you. I'm assuming that regular people were already unable to use the airport.
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This. Private flights likely meant people were chartering planes to fly in and out of the airport, not buying tickets with a major air service.

That said, I'm sure there are some middle class people who made a living doing flights for millionaires that won't have a job once the place goes fully private.
 
Bubble181

Bubble181

PatrThom said:
I think the real takeaway from the airport thing is it shows that the threshold/breakpoint where the billionaire class stops caring about people below a certain wealth level has definitively surpassed the "millions" level.

--Patrick
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We have politicians here holding back taxes on second homes and holiday homes because it would be "unfairly targetting the average person, compared to the rich". Unironically. Myeah, the people who are just barely holding on and can afford only one ski lodge OR seaside appartment really are the number one group you should focus on protecting.
 
Bubble181

Bubble181

chris said:
I'm already shocked that a yearly income of 100k is considered a middle class income in America.
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I make less than €40K/year gross and I'm in the higher end of the spectrum. And my taxes are double what any American pays. :p
And in contrast to, say, Germans, we don't even get a somewhat functional state in return :oops:
 
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