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(NOTE: I love Clerks through Clerks 2)

The first time I thought maybe Kevin Smith is losing his lustre was when Zack & Miri Make a Porno flopped and he completely flipped out and cried and whined like a huge baby. And then I heard the whole story on Smodcast and lost a bit of respect.

I liked the early Smodcasts, but they got a little grating before going full bore into "how the hell does Mosier put up with him?"

Also, just stating, I was on his side of pretty much all of the "Too Fat to Fly" nonsense.

Then he again, went full idiot on the "Cop Out" stuff, and I think launched his "war on movie criticism". I rolled my eyes pretty hard, but still didn't really have any harsh feelings.

Then everything about Red State happened. I don't want to hash out all that happened, but what he pulled at Sundance (Cannes?) with buying his own movie for one cent is one of the stupidest and shittiest things he's ever done. Then on top of that, the movie sucked.

ALSO: a few pages leaked of that Hit Somebody movie / epic / miniseries / whatever the fuck it is now, and holy shit it was so laughably bad. I dunno if it's still up, but christ.

I'll probably give Clerks 3 a shot, since maybe that'll find his way back to a good movie, but I'm incredibly fuckin wary.

So that's my Kevin Smith rant, sorry I couldn't do him justice and smoke a huge blunt and record me talking about it for an hour with a disinterested friend.

I LOVED Red State.

I dug his earlier stuff, even if they were incredibly sophomoric.

Personally, my favourite of his work are his Evening with Kevin Smith Q&As. He's a very hit-and-miss filmmaker, but he's a great storyteller.

Dogma is still one of my favorites, though.

I haven't seen anything of his since Clerks 2. Cop Out looked terrible and I have no idea what the fuck Red State is supposed to be about. I'll just stick to his Jersey Chronicles and not worry about the other crap he spews. Though I do agree with Nick, I like the clips I've seen of his stage stuff (Evening With, Too Fat For 40, etc) and he's not bad when he shows up in Comic Book Men.

Just throwing this out there, not at anyone in particular, but he only directed Cop Out. That one he wasn't a writer on.

Zack & Miri Make a Porno completely failed to connect with my sense of humor and Red State was a badly flawed movie any many ways and could have turned out to be a much better movie with a little more restraint and willingness to make cuts. But I love the heck out of the smodcast network and his free form discussions entertain me to no end.

I had been looking forward to Hit Someone when it was still going to be a movie as it sounded like it was going to be something new while also being something he is passionate about.

I haven't seen much of his stuff since Clerks 2 but I haven't heard much good. Its bitter sweet to me since Clerks is one of my favorite movies. So I can't really argue either way.

Edit: WHOOPS! Meant to put a 2 under after that Clerks. Now I feel silly. No different than usual I guess.

Clerks, Clerks 2, Dogma, and Red State are some of his better ones (Chasing Amy gets super grating after multiple viewings).

So, yeah, what Jay said above.

I thought Z&M ranked right alongside 40yr-old Virgin. I found both of them startlingly tender.

--Patrick

I didn't know he was ever all that great. Sure clerks was fun because he talked about star wars and stuff, and mall rats was funny because of Brenda and all that. But it was all just silly pop culture stuff. All his other stuff was just an attempt to recapture that. Don't get me wrong, I like his stuff. He's just never been all that great.

Shakey said:

I didn't know he was ever all that great. Sure clerks was fun because he talked about star wars and stuff, and mall rats was funny because of Brenda and all that. But it was all just silly pop culture stuff. All his other stuff was just an attempt to recapture that. Don't get me wrong, I like his stuff. He's just never been all that great.

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Okay there was more to the Askewniverse than that. True there is a lot of pop-culture talk in the films and thats a factor to why they are enjoyable, but I also think that the characters and how they bounce off one another that makes it good to. Plus Jay always makes me laugh with how gross he can get.

Shakey said:

I didn't know he was ever all that great. Sure clerks was fun because he talked about star wars and stuff, and mall rats was funny because of Brenda and all that. But it was all just silly pop culture stuff. All his other stuff was just an attempt to recapture that. Don't get me wrong, I like his stuff. He's just never been all that great.

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I'd strongly disagree. Dogma is a wildly different film, thought it may have the "dick and fart joke" feel, it is an incredibly well crafted movie, and a serious love letter to Kevin Smith's belief in God over organized religion.

People are also quick to dismiss Jersey Girl due to the fact that Jennifer Lopez and Ben Affleck are in the film together and it came out at roughly the same time as Gili, but I found it to be an incredibly heartwarming movie, if not a bit cliche.

Zack and Miri failed on multiple levels. It was too sweet to appeal to the clerks/mallrats croud, but to vulgar to appeal to the mainstream crowd.

I also agree with other posters in that I loved the hell out of Red State.

He has been incredibly hit or miss outside of the Jay and Silent Bob films, but really, what writer/director doesn't have the occasional bomb?

As was pointed out earlier, Kevin Smith only directed Cop Out, and had nothing to do with the writing of it. I'm not saying it was great directing on his part, but I don't know if it would have been a good movie no matter who directed it.

As for his attitude, we've had this discussion multiple times and it's hardly worth rehashing. Whether you think he's an asshole/whiner/whatnot should be seperate from your analysis of his films.

I pretty much agree wholeheartedly with Charlie there.

I used to love Smodcasts, but his stoner shit got tiresome so quickly. Most of his work post becoming an idiot pothead has been terrible.

I never listened to the Smodcasts or really paid any attention to him outside of his films and his "evening with" stuff. I honestly let his films stand or fall on their own merits. I couldn't give two shits if he's a self-riteous asshole outside of his films.

He's not even self-righteous about being a stoner, he's just an annoying stoner. He's Jon Stewart in Half Baked.

Yoshimickster said:

Okay there was more to the Askewniverse than that. True there is a lot of pop-culture talk in the films and thats a factor to why they are enjoyable, but I also think that the characters and how they bounce off one another that makes it good to. Plus Jay always makes me laugh with how gross he can get.

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Right, he's good at constructing a good conversation. That's what makes him a good writer.

Bowielee said:

I'd strongly disagree. Dogma is a wildly different film, thought it may have the "dick and fart joke" feel, it is an incredibly well crafted movie, and a serious love letter to Kevin Smith's belief in God over organized religion.

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I liked Dogma, and it is a bit different, but in the end it's just him having a conversation in his own head. He doesn't do anything great or mind blowing. He's just a good conversational writer.

Clerks is a great movie. I'll stand by that. And I'm not saying the stuff he's done after the above makes his earlier movies worse suddenly. I'm just disappointed his career went the way it did.

I liked Dogma, Clerks, and Clerks 2, and a couple bits from Mallrats, but that's basically been it.

Gusto said:

I liked Dogma, Clerks, and Clerks 2, and a couple bits from Mallrats, but that's basically been it.

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That's one of my favorite PA strips just for Gabe's face in the last panel.

Is... is that a Doofenshmirtz Devil?

Gusto said:

I liked Dogma, Clerks, and Clerks 2, and a couple bits from Mallrats, but that's basically been it.

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That second panel reminds me of Hark! A Vagrant.

Krisken said:

That second panel reminds me of Hark! A Vagrant.

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Well then that Hark thing is ripping PA off cause that strip actually was popular enough to "create" those two characters, Catsby and Twisp, they've gone on to make several strips with them, ie:



They're also in the Penny Arcade game.

See, Kevin Smith is so awesome he even, albeit indirectly, helped create a great PA recurring gag.

No no, it doesn't look like it, as Hark! looks like shit. I'm saying the nonsense of the comic reminds me of reading Hark! I hate Hark.

Krisken said:

No no, it doesn't look like it, as Hark! looks like shit. I'm saying the nonsense of the comic reminds me of reading Hark! I hate Hark.

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I disagree with your opinion.

Gilgamesh said:

I disagree with your opinion.

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You are welcome to disagree. Doesn't make you any less wrong.

Krisken said:

You are welcome to disagree. Doesn't make you any less wrong.

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Sure it does. Opinions are both always wrong and always right. That's what makes them different from facts

Gilgamesh said:

Sure it does. Opinions are both always wrong and always right. That's what makes them different from facts

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No, no, they're not both always wrong and always right, they're neither, they're subjective, they're not wrong OR right. Which I guess would be the same result, but my brain twitched at something being always both.

I've always felt that Kevin Smith at his best was pleasantly juvenile and at his worst obnoxiously juvenile. Never gave it a second thought to listen to his smodcasts, but that Wild Wild West story of his is hilarious.

Calleja said:

but my brain twitched at something being always both.

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But your response was basically -They're both not either wrong or right-

ElJuski said:

...but that Wild Wild West story of his is hilarious.

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Oh, hell yes. That may be my favorite Kevin Smith moment.

lmao, I completely forgot Jersey Girl exists/ed and that's really where his critics hatred started

Charlie Don't Surf said:

lmao, I completely forgot Jersey Girl exists/ed and that's really where his critics hatred started

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Oh god no, critics have disliked him since Clerks. They just generally give it a pass because it was made on a budget of $25,000.[DOUBLEPOST=1359235172][/DOUBLEPOST]

Tress said:

Oh, hell yes. That may be my favorite Kevin Smith moment.

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I love that one, but I really like the Princeland story.

Krisken said:

Oh god no, critics have disliked him since Clerks. They just generally give it a pass because it was made on a budget of $25,000..

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I more meant that was where he started saying shitty things about critics in public. ALSO all his movies were over 50% on Rotten Tomatoes until Jersey Girl. Even Mallrats and J&SBSB (which were much more "not for critics" than Jersey Girl)

Yeah, but he's always caught shit for not being a technical director or having a single recognizable style. Critics eat that shit up.

The guy didn't know the type of lenses, he admitted himself in one of the latest Q&As. Bruce effing Willis almost went full McClane on his ass because of that, as he tells it.


To be honest, I really like the guy even though he really can be a narcissistic doof who loves to talk about himself, which I guess kinda comes with the territory of becoming a millionaire by doing the thing you love but self-admittedly aren't that good at. His movies feel like their more about the characters than anything else, as much failures as they can have I've always found a certain charm about that. Plus I love hearing the guy talk about himself anyway, so I guess it's hard not like him if that IS what he does best.

He's definitely 'one of us'.

Kevin Smith's Q and A's are way better than any of his films that aren't Clerks.

But I do like most of his movies.

So apparentlt Smith's also been on that Ray William Johnson dude's vlogs. I guess the guy is some hyperactive weirdo who pretends to be like a manic America's Funniest Home Videos, but with YouTube.

Also, according to Smith's FB page, he's going to be on Epic Meal Time.

I mean, I liked everything Kevin Smith did before Clerks 2 (except Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back, that wasn't even a film). It wasn't amazing but it wasn't like he was putting out terrible movies. To me, Kevin Smith ruined Kevin Smith's movies. Just quit whining, deal with criticism, handle your actors and put something out.

I think he hit his peak with Dogma. I haven't liked a single movie since that one. I kind of wish Jay and Silent Bob weren't in it though.

However, I haven't seen anything from him since Clerks 2.

The two movies I will randomly rewatch are Mallrats and Dogma, beyond that I don't have the temperment to enjoy Clerks, I only vaguely remember the plot of Chasing Amy, and I really didn't like Clerks 2 or Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back. Haven't seen anything beyond that. *shrug*

drawn_inward said:

I think he hit his peak with Dogma. I haven't liked a single movie since that one. I kind of wish Jay and Silent Bob weren't in it though.

However, I haven't seen anything from him since Clerks 2.

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I couldn't have said this better myself. You articulated my feelings exactly.

I liked Clerks because I identified with the main character. We all had shit jobs when we were that age. Outside of that, I just did not relate to his "universe."

To this DAY I still make the screaming "WHERE ARE MY PANTS" joke (2 minutes into this video)at the little woman and she still laughs even though she's never watched Clerks TAS.

"They'll rue the day they crossed Leonardo Leonardo Leonardo! Err, Leonardo Leonardo!"

Clerks TAS is ridiculously quotable.

CynicismKills said:

"They'll rue the day they crossed Leonardo Leonardo Leonardo! Err, Leonardo Leonardo!"

Clerks TAS is ridiculously quotable.

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"You're poorly educated!"
"You're talking... to the television."

My favorite Leonardo Leonardo quote is "My revenge will not be swift. I will drag it out for years in such a subtle fashion that you will be forced to wonder whether the misfortune in your life is manifest, or the machination of Leonardo Leonardo, or... a third thing!"

"No, it's not evil spirits...it's just rain. RAAAAIIIN. Fine, try and kill it."

Bring this Qwik-Stop...to me.

Sir, it's a store.

BRING IT

"You're a cigarette!"

Dante: "It won a Humanitas award."

Randall: "What's a Humanitas award?"

Dante: "It's an award for shows that don't use words like 'retarded' or 'gay'."

Randall: "That's retarded........ and gay."

"GO SEXY RANDALL THE PHARAOH WIZARD"

I want my eight bucks back.

Man, there's this big bee...

Who is driving? Oh no! Bear is driving!

It's the kid in the helmet. Heh heh... look at him.

"We find the verdict in favor of...BIG AMERICAN PARTY!!"

YET ANOTHER BURN WARD

Ok, combo breaker here.

I'm listening to Fatman on Batman because he's doing a panel with cast and crew of Dark Knight Returns. Holy Christ....he fucking wept watching Dark Knight Returns. He breaks into tears talking about Batman constantly. He needs a fucking shrink. Also, he says whatnot after every second sentence. He does it more than people usually say you know.

And whatnot.

And whatnot.

And whatnot.

Kevin Smith sucks.

Frank said:

Ok, combo breaker here.

I'm listening to Fatman on Batman because he's doing a panel with cast and crew of Dark Knight Returns. Holy Christ....he fucking wept watching Dark Knight Returns. He breaks into tears talking about Batman constantly. He needs a fucking shrink. Also, he says whatnot after every second sentence. He does it more than people usually say you know.

And whatnot.

And whatnot.

And whatnot.

Kevin Smith sucks.

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the whatnot is what eventually turned me off to his podcasts

You know, there comes a point where complaining about something loses legs, usually when you admit you are still exposing yourself to it despite repeated complaints.

WE do the "Science Says" segments around here, GOT IT?!

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, Dante Hicks is just like you: he looooves Grape Soda. He knows what it's like when the guy behind the counter won't take your "food stamps." He knows what it's like to wait all month for your "welfare check."

I think that stuff just kicked in, Silent Bob.