Liquid Cooling. Where do I begin?

[Shegokigo]

I know next to nothing about getting my system set-up for liquid cooling. Why bother? Cause I'd like to overclock my I7 940 and I'd like to get a second GTX 295 card.

Now, I have someone that will "put it together", I just need to "get everything" first. From the little I know, I'm going to need a specific type of TOWER CASE, RADIATOR, TUBING, and BLOCKS. Though all that sounds pretty alien to me as I don't know "brands" or what type of material is "quality" etc. I know that going cheap will end up costing me more in the event of a leak, so I'd like to go "solid" but not "ridiculous" and break my bank.

Any and all advice is appreciated.

 

[DarkAudit]

Water Cooling. Where do I begin?

Before you spend the dough, are the temps you looking at going to be that much above what air cooling will be able to handle?

 

[Shegokigo]

Water Cooling. Where do I begin?

Before you spend the dough, are the temps you looking at going to be that much above what air cooling will be able to handle?

At the moment I'm running on an air system that isn't exactly "the best", and I'm not so worried about the temp from OCing the I7 as I hear they run at good temps even at 3.5ghz and beyond, but it's the two GTX 295 running quad SLI that I want to go liquid for.

 

[Chibibar]

Water Cooling. Where do I begin?

Before you spend the dough, are the temps you looking at going to be that much above what air cooling will be able to handle?

At the moment I'm running on an air system that isn't exactly "the best", and I'm not so worried about the temp from OCing the I7 as I hear they run at good temps even at 3.5ghz and beyond, but it's the two GTX 295 running quad SLI that I want to go liquid for.

i7 with TWO GTX 295??

man.. I got i7 2.3GHZ (I think I have to check when I get home) with only 1 GTX 295.. I'm jealous.

 

[Shegokigo]

Well the problem with my I7 is that it's great and all but at 2.93ghz, it leaves a bit to be desired.

The second GTX is just to overkill my games so that I get even less studder.

 

[Chibibar]

Well the problem with my I7 is that it's great and all but at 2.93ghz, it leaves a bit to be desired.

The second GTX is just to overkill my games so that I get even less studder.

you just wanna frag me x3 than just x2 huh?

 

[Shakey]

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/Swiftech-Koolance-Zalman,2040.html

Here's an article on pre-built cooling systems and one they put together themselves. If you put it together yourself, expect to do some work on your case to get it to all fit right.

 

[Chazwozel]

Isn't a liquid cooling system for a processor essentially just a beefed up heat sink?

 

[Shegokigo]

I would much rather take a "pre-built" system with a warranty than piece it together over here with my personal tech.

 

[Shakey]

Isn't a liquid cooling system for a processor essentially just a beefed up heat sink?

Not really. Water cooling has a radiator and pump that pumps coolant through a block that sits on your CPU.

 

[Chazwozel]

I would much rather take a "pre-built" system with a warranty than piece it together over here with my personal tech.

Well what I mean is that the system is one big unit that goes on top of where your processor heat sink is. Instead of air dissipating the heat, it's carried away by water to the radiator at the back of your case. I don't see why you'd need a special case for it. You can easily use a dremel tool to bore holes and "fit" the radiator and pump into your existing case. I guess it's a cost factor on your part. 50 bucks for a dremel or finding a cheap "cooler" case.

-- Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:30 am --

Isn't a liquid cooling system for a processor essentially just a beefed up heat sink?

Not really. Water cooling has a radiator and pump that pumps coolant through a block that sits on your CPU.

^ yeah what I said.

Beefed up heat sink.

 

[Chibibar]

Isn't a liquid cooling system for a processor essentially just a beefed up heat sink?

Think of it as a radiator for you PC. You just don't want your key component to overheat. You can liquid cool video cards too. Generally CPU and video cards can heat up PRETTY fast and hot which can damage the unit.

Generally standard air cooling (when done right) can keep most stuff cool + heatsink, but when you overclock it, it just get extra hot (if I use that term correctly) which you would need additional cooling or your component will fry big time.

Shego: I pay extra. I went Alienware

 

[Shakey]

Not everybody is comfortable using a dremel to cut up their case. Also these cases are built by people that know more about it than the average joe with a dremel, so they can usually get better airflow through the case. If you aren't comfortable cutting up a case, go prebuilt.

I believe I have bought from these guys before, performance-pcs.com, but can't remember. They have a pretty good selection anyway.

 

[Shannow]

Hahahahahah, enjoy that, Sheg.

 

[Shegokigo]

Hahahahahah, enjoy that, Sheg.

:bush:

 

[Shannow]

If you are going prebuilt..its easy, especially if you arent even building it. buy a tower, and the blocks for your specific components. Give to person doing build. Pay your money. Done. Going to cost you a bit, but thats your perogitive.

 

[PatrThom]

Are you looking to OC the CPU, too? Because you may be able to just get away with putting the dual 295s on liquid and keeping everything else on air. I'm sure the majority of heat generated in your case would be coming from the 295s anyway. The i7 already self-overclocks up to 3.33GHz if you aren't using more than 2 cores (and 3.06GHz if you use more than 2).

--Patrick

 

[Cuyval Dar]

Are you looking to OC the CPU, too? Because you may be able to just get away with putting the dual 295s on liquid and keeping everything else on air. I'm sure the majority of heat generated in your case would be coming from the 295s anyway. The i7 already self-overclocks up to 3.33GHz if you aren't using more than 2 cores (and 3.06GHz if you use more than 2).

--Patrick

What he said.

Anyway, do the GTX 295s really put out that much heat? It might be worth it to just upgrade the existing air cooling setup.

SLI/CrossFire really do not scale very well, in terms of performance, power consumption and heat output.
I honestly think that you would be better served to wait a few more months and get the fastest single-card you can.

 

[Shegokigo]

Are you looking to OC the CPU, too? Because you may be able to just get away with putting the dual 295s on liquid and keeping everything else on air. I'm sure the majority of heat generated in your case would be coming from the 295s anyway. The i7 already self-overclocks up to 3.33GHz if you aren't using more than 2 cores (and 3.06GHz if you use more than 2).

--Patrick

Self overclocks? Tell me more.

Also, if I'm already liquid cooling the cards, why not the whole nine yards?

 

[Cuyval Dar]

Are you looking to OC the CPU, too? Because you may be able to just get away with putting the dual 295s on liquid and keeping everything else on air. I'm sure the majority of heat generated in your case would be coming from the 295s anyway. The i7 already self-overclocks up to 3.33GHz if you aren't using more than 2 cores (and 3.06GHz if you use more than 2).

--Patrick

Self overclocks? Tell me more.

Also, if I'm already liquid cooling the cards, why not the whole nine yards?

It is the Turbo mode that should be enabled in the BIOS by default. It overclocks one-two cores when it detects a single-threaded application.

As to the watercooling, just using it on part of the system will reduce the likelihood of disaster.

 

[strawman]

if I'm already liquid cooling the cards, why not the whole nine yards?

Because it takes another 9 yards of tubing, each cooled item adds at least two more tubing joints that can leak, and you either need to increase the size of the radiator for each item, or live with a higher temperature for all your items. The additional tubing creates airflow problems inside the case. Etc, etc, etc.

But it doesn't matter, since you haven't given the reason for the liquid cooling then we can't judge when you might want to follow a particular path. Air cooling is adequate for most overclocking, and the gain in any overclocking that requires liquid cooling is marginal compared to the initial gain done from air cooling.

Personally, since you already have everything but the liquid cooling setup, I'd suggest overclocking it as-is while monitoring the temperatures and seeing if it's necessary. If you need more cooling, I'd look at additional case fans with appropriate cross flowing ventilation before taking the leap to liquid cooling.

Liquid cooling does have some advantages, and does allow some slight performance gain beyond good air cooling, but it's so much more expensive and difficult to maintain correctly that it's almost never worth it. It's the audiophile equivalent of Monster Cables. Slightly better, maybe, significantly more costly, always.

But if you're really at the bleeding edge, maybe that extra 1% performance increase is worth the extra cost and maintenance...

-Adam

 

[Cuyval Dar]

if I'm already liquid cooling the cards, why not the whole nine yards?

Because it takes another 9 yards of tubing, each cooled item adds at least two more tubing joints that can leak, and you either need to increase the size of the radiator for each item, or live with a higher temperature for all your items. The additional tubing creates airflow problems inside the case. Etc, etc, etc.

But it doesn't matter, since you haven't given the reason for the liquid cooling then we can't judge when you might want to follow a particular path. Air cooling is adequate for most overclocking, and the gain in any overclocking that requires liquid cooling is marginal compared to the initial gain done from air cooling.

Personally, since you already have everything but the liquid cooling setup, I'd suggest overclocking it as-is while monitoring the temperatures and seeing if it's necessary. If you need more cooling, I'd look at additional case fans with appropriate cross flowing ventilation before taking the leap to liquid cooling.

Liquid cooling does have some advantages, and does allow some slight performance gain beyond good air cooling, but it's so much more expensive and difficult to maintain correctly that it's almost never worth it. It's the audiophile equivalent of Monster Cables. Slightly better, maybe, significantly more costly, always.

But if you're really at the bleeding edge, maybe that extra 1% performance increase is worth the extra cost and maintenance...

-Adam

If you really need more performance, upgrade to a RAID 0 of SSDs or Velociraptors, or, since you seem like you want to [strike:12noi9z0]waste[/strike:12noi9z0] spend money on components that marginally increase your FPS in Team Fortress 2, blow several grand on a SAS controller and 15K Seagate drives, or 4 SLI'd dual-GPU video cards.

-- Thu Jul 16, 2009 1:55 pm --

Overclocking really only has a tangible performance boost on the low-end, anyway.

 

[Chibibar]

if I'm already liquid cooling the cards, why not the whole nine yards?

Because it takes another 9 yards of tubing, each cooled item adds at least two more tubing joints that can leak, and you either need to increase the size of the radiator for each item, or live with a higher temperature for all your items. The additional tubing creates airflow problems inside the case. Etc, etc, etc.

But it doesn't matter, since you haven't given the reason for the liquid cooling then we can't judge when you might want to follow a particular path. Air cooling is adequate for most overclocking, and the gain in any overclocking that requires liquid cooling is marginal compared to the initial gain done from air cooling.

Personally, since you already have everything but the liquid cooling setup, I'd suggest overclocking it as-is while monitoring the temperatures and seeing if it's necessary. If you need more cooling, I'd look at additional case fans with appropriate cross flowing ventilation before taking the leap to liquid cooling.

Liquid cooling does have some advantages, and does allow some slight performance gain beyond good air cooling, but it's so much more expensive and difficult to maintain correctly that it's almost never worth it. It's the audiophile equivalent of Monster Cables. Slightly better, maybe, significantly more costly, always.

But if you're really at the bleeding edge, maybe that extra 1% performance increase is worth the extra cost and maintenance...

-Adam

If you really need more performance, upgrade to a RAID 0 of SSDs or Velociraptors, or, since you seem like you want to [strike:3f4wrjjz]waste[/strike:3f4wrjjz] spend money on components that marginally increase your FPS in Team Fortress 2, blow several grand on a SAS controller and 15K Seagate drives, or 4 SLI'd dual-GPU video cards.

-- Thu Jul 16, 2009 1:55 pm --

Overclocking really only has a tangible performance boost on the low-end, anyway.

*drools*

 

[Cuyval Dar]

if I'm already liquid cooling the cards, why not the whole nine yards?

Because it takes another 9 yards of tubing, each cooled item adds at least two more tubing joints that can leak, and you either need to increase the size of the radiator for each item, or live with a higher temperature for all your items. The additional tubing creates airflow problems inside the case. Etc, etc, etc.

But it doesn't matter, since you haven't given the reason for the liquid cooling then we can't judge when you might want to follow a particular path. Air cooling is adequate for most overclocking, and the gain in any overclocking that requires liquid cooling is marginal compared to the initial gain done from air cooling.

Personally, since you already have everything but the liquid cooling setup, I'd suggest overclocking it as-is while monitoring the temperatures and seeing if it's necessary. If you need more cooling, I'd look at additional case fans with appropriate cross flowing ventilation before taking the leap to liquid cooling.

Liquid cooling does have some advantages, and does allow some slight performance gain beyond good air cooling, but it's so much more expensive and difficult to maintain correctly that it's almost never worth it. It's the audiophile equivalent of Monster Cables. Slightly better, maybe, significantly more costly, always.

But if you're really at the bleeding edge, maybe that extra 1% performance increase is worth the extra cost and maintenance...

-Adam

If you really need more performance, upgrade to a RAID 0 of SSDs or Velociraptors, or, since you seem like you want to [strike:1be7z980]waste[/strike:1be7z980] spend money on components that marginally increase your FPS in Team Fortress 2, blow several grand on a SAS controller and 15K Seagate drives, or 4 SLI'd dual-GPU video cards.

-- Thu Jul 16, 2009 1:55 pm --

Overclocking really only has a tangible performance boost on the low-end, anyway.

*drools*

You know, if she was using the PC for other purposes, like Photoshop (GPU-acceleration), any of the @Home(s) (Parallel processing that would take advantage of GPU(s) and the i7), or HD video editing/encoding (multi-threading, GPU-acceleration, 15K SAS HD). I wouldn't bat an eye.

But since all she really does is gaming, and general computing tasks, there is no real need for multi-card graphical solutions like SLI/CF that do not scale well at all, or water cooling to overclock an already speedy CPU.

 

[strawman]

But since all she really does is gaming, there is no real need for multi-card graphical solutions like SLI/CF that do not scale well at all, or water cooling to overclock an already speedy CPU.

The only reason these things exist at a consumer level is due to gaming, and the high end cards, overclocking, etc do help - especially in fast twitch games where framerate is nice, but latency is king.

The time form the button input to the cpu running through the code path that generates the models to the transfer to the GPU to the GPU rendering the frame with data generated from the initial button press is measurable and noticeable.

For fast twitch FPS players, a better rig does result in an advantage against other players.

Still, water cooling only gives a small boost above what can be accomplished with cheap, safe air cooling, so it often only makes sense for those that have already maxed out their system in most other ways.

-Adam

 

[Shakey]

Still, water cooling only gives a small boost above what can be accomplished with cheap, safe air cooling, so it often only makes sense for those that have already maxed out their system in most other ways.

-Adam

Yeah, a well designed case and some good heatsinks will work nearly as well. Just might create a lot more noise.

 

[Cuyval Dar]

Still, water cooling only gives a small boost above what can be accomplished with cheap, safe air cooling, so it often only makes sense for those that have already maxed out their system in most other ways.

-Adam

Yeah, a well designed case and some good heatsinks will work nearly as well. Just might create a lot more noise.

Depends on how high-quality the fans are. Plus, you can always get a fan controller, or just use air filters (That have the benefit of preventing dust buildup).

-- Thu Jul 16, 2009 3:03 pm --

But since all she really does is gaming, there is no real need for multi-card graphical solutions like SLI/CF that do not scale well at all, or water cooling to overclock an already speedy CPU.

The only reason these things exist at a consumer level is due to gaming, and the high end cards, overclocking, etc do help - especially in fast twitch games where framerate is nice, but latency is king.

The time form the button input to the cpu running through the code path that generates the models to the transfer to the GPU to the GPU rendering the frame with data generated from the initial button press is measurable and noticeable.

For fast twitch FPS players, a better rig does result in an advantage against other players.

Still, water cooling only gives a small boost above what can be accomplished with cheap, safe air cooling, so it often only makes sense for those that have already maxed out their system in most other ways.

-Adam

I fully agree with what you say, do not get me wrong.

It is not optimal to have a multi-card setup, especially given that Nvidia has almost always built GPUs that run more hot than their ATI counterparts.
It would be a different story if you saw a 100% boost for each GPU over the same card in a single-GPU config.
The power consumption and rate of obsolescence make it illogical to buy 2 or more cards that will be outclassed in 6 months by a single card that is cheaper, more power efficient and faster.

 

[Shegokigo]

I already have a Velociraptor drive just a heads up. :slywink:

If I could find a safe guaranteed air cooling set-up for that kind of heat output I wouldn't think twice and go with the air. I'm not exactly fond of the liquid idea at all.

Also, it may seem like I have tons of money to throw a around but I really do budget for these things by not spending in other places. I was looking at about $800 to spend on getting my system OC/Quad SLI ready.

Now for those saying minimal performance increase, I'm going to simply state "That's exactly what I'm looking for". I currently run games like Fallout 3 with about 40 HQ mods right now on "HIGH" settings and keep at a steady 60fps for the most part. Problem is, every now and then I get a stutter here and there, which drops me to the 50s or so. I cannot tell you how insane that drives me. TF2 runs at 100+fps at full HIGH settings, so I'm not gonna get any performance there. World of Warcraft, with my mods, and maxed sliders, has me running at a slightly stuttered 40-60fps in the over world in certain heavy load places, and 30-40fps in full out raids. This, to me, is unacceptable, as when I'm running a heroic, I have 80+fps and I can FEEL the difference between the 30-40 and 80fps in a DPS situation. If I could have a permanent SOLID 60fps in everything I play, stutter free. It'll be worth the "bit extra".

 

[Chibibar]

I already have a Velociraptor drive just a heads up. :slywink:

If I could find a safe guaranteed air cooling set-up for that kind of heat output I wouldn't think twice and go with the air. I'm not exactly fond of the liquid idea at all.

Also, it may seem like I have tons of money to throw a around but I really do budget for these things by not spending in other places. I was looking at about $800 to spend on getting my system OC/Quad SLI ready.

Now for those saying minimal performance increase, I'm going to simply state "That's exactly what I'm looking for". I currently run games like Fallout 3 with about 40 HQ mods right now on "HIGH" settings and keep at a steady 60fps for the most part. Problem is, every now and then I get a stutter here and there, which drops me to the 50s or so. I cannot tell you how insane that drives me. TF2 runs at 100+fps at full HIGH settings, so I'm not gonna get any performance there. World of Warcraft, with my mods, and maxed sliders, has me running at a slightly stuttered 40-60fps in the over world in certain heavy load places, and 30-40fps in full out raids. This, to me, is unacceptable, as when I'm running a heroic, I have 80+fps and I can FEEL the difference between the 30-40 and 80fps in a DPS situation. If I could have a permanent SOLID 60fps in everything I play, stutter free. It'll be worth the "bit extra".

shego: I hereby bow to your hardcore-ness. cause I find those acceptable

 

[Shegokigo]

I honestly wish it didn't bother me as much as it does. I can be playing and having a blast in Fallout, then it hits that stutter and I just feel like tossing out the whole PC. rly:

The WoW problem is actually a performance issue in my raids, as lower FPS is lowering my DPS (fractionally) and I can't be faltering in that department or I'm gonna lose my Raid Group A spot before too long.

 

[PatrThom]

Self overclocks? Tell me more.

Everything You Need to Know About Nehalem's "Turbo Mode"

Also, if I'm already liquid cooling the cards, why not the whole nine yards?

I'm with Cuyval Dar and Steinman. Increased complexity means increased number of points of potential failure.

Watercooling just your video cards means less tubing and less 'in the loop.' It also means you won't have to rebuild your entire cooling setup if you move to a different motherboard with different physical CPU type or placement. And since the heat is being conducted outside of the case via a different path (liquid), that means the ambient air temperature inside the case will be lower, meaning there will be more 'thermal bandwidth' available for that ambient air to soak up heat from the CPU(s), the voltage regulators, the HDDs, etc. Honestly, I'd almost rather put 2x285 in SLI right now rather than buy a single 295. Keep in mind that most SLI boards split 1 PCIe x16 slot into two PCIe x8 slots when they enable SLI, meaning that putting 2x295 in many of today's systems actually cuts the bandwidth to each card in half, possibly choking the 295s. If only someone would test this for us on a nice, fast Core i7 system? Oh, wait...what's this over here*?

If you really need more performance, upgrade to a RAID 0 of SSDs or Velociraptors, or, since you seem like you want to [strike:1oc4h3hq]waste[/strike:1oc4h3hq] spend money on components that marginally increase your FPS in Team Fortress 2, blow several grand on a SAS controller and 15K Seagate drives, or 4 SLI'd dual-GPU video cards.

Hah! Obviously what's needed is a 4-way RAID 0 of OCZ Vertex SSDs, or better yet, a 4-way RAID 0 of 2xHyperDrive5 DDR drives (each one has 2 SATAII ports). Did we already mention the Asus P6T6, too?

--Patrick
*Possibly the most important takeaway from this article is the following quote: "...you'll also need Windows Vista to get Quad SLI support. Windows XP does not support more than 2 GPUs properly." So much for your XP Black build, Shego.

 

[Shegokigo]

I'm not worried about my XP Black at all, I'm dying to get onto Windows 7 but have been putting it off for a real necessity.

Thanks for the links though, I'll check them out.

 

[PatrThom]

By the way, Shego...incredibly in-depth article on gaming lag over an Anandtech released today. Might be interesting.

--Patrick

 

[Shakey]

The only real question with going to watercooling is if you are willing to risk killing some expensive equipment to get what you want. If you are OK with that, than go for it.

 

[Gill Kaiser]

Go the whole hog and immerse the whole thing in mineral oil.