Liquid Cooling. Where do I begin?
- Thread starter Shegokigo
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Chazwozel
Shegokigo said:
I don't see how you're going to pull off a strong air cooling setup without modding the shit out of your case.
Key basics: Hot air rises. Air fills in low pressure pockets. Air moves out of high pressure pockets.
I have a clear case, where the rear fan and front fan suck in air. I have two exhaust fans on the side and one big one at the top (my power supply fan).
Essentially air flow is the movement from high pressure pockets to low pockets. You're fan exhaust side is the high pressure while the side that pulls air toward it creates a low pressure pocket.
Here's my set up:
If I really wanted to I would drill a hole on the top and put a nice big fan there to create a low pressure pocket at the top where all the heat rises. If it's nice and cool outside I open the window and use a window fan to force cold are into the back induction fan. Oh the white bar under the CPU represents my video card. The induction fan blows cool air over the surface of the card and the exhaust from the Video Card fan is pulled into the low pressure caused by the two side exhaust fans.
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Mr_Chaz
What case do you have at the moment? And what/how many fans? I'm just wondering how much room for improvement you'll have.Shegokigo said:
Cooler Master HAF 932 or Thermaltake Spedo are both good cases, and are set up to accept water cooling if you decide to go that route in the future. Both are a bit spendy though.
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Chazwozel
Shakey said:
Why are people so afraid to cut holes in their stuff?
Buy a cheap ass 30 dollar case. Cut it up and add your mods.
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Chibibar
I have very little if any artistic skills and even a whole lot less in metal/plastic skills.Chazwozel said:
I can measure and cut, but probably won't look as cool (more than likely have gaps and such and might have some air leaks) and probably won't be as "optimized" I have no qualms in passing to a pro who can do a whole lot better job than I. (hence I buy premade case)
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Chibibar
Well.. lets see a low line dremel is around 70$? my wife got one that is around 90$ with a bunch of accessories (it is also wireless) she LOVES it. It has a good grip. kinda like a mini drill style (perfect for her)Shegokigo said:
I don't know what else you need.
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Chazwozel
Ah, see, I consider a Dremel an essential tool for any household, so I don't consider the purchase of one "project money". A Dremel comes in handy all the time!Chibibar said:
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Chibibar
for you and my wife probably. I don't use as much. My wife LOVES it and use it for a lot of things. Shego... I don't know.Chazwozel said:
I don't see her as a "crafter" type
If you just want to make holes for fans I would use a drill with a hole saw instead.
Some fan screws to hold the fan in place. Fan grills so you don't get any wandering pets sucked in.
For fans, go for 120mm if they fit. The cheaper ones will be louder and won't pull as much air.
Some fan screws to hold the fan in place. Fan grills so you don't get any wandering pets sucked in.
For fans, go for 120mm if they fit. The cheaper ones will be louder and won't pull as much air.
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Chibibar
heh.. I remember seeing an image where a family of rats living in a PC.Shakey said:
Oh I've got plenty of tools, I was just trying to make a point about the cost.Chibibar said:for you and my wife probably. I don't use as much. My wife LOVES it and use it for a lot of things. Shego... I don't know.
I don't see her as a "crafter" type
Also, granted to you Chaz, the tool would be useful to have around the house, though my point is, the PC tower case would see about 99% more useage. :slywink:
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Cuyval Dar
Good lord. Why would you buy some cheap ass .4mm steel and plastic case that will fall apart under the weight of a i7 and heatsink, large motherboard, hard drive(s), SLI'd GTX 295s?
You do not even know what case she has. I'm willing to bet that it has better airflow than you can get by drilling holes in a $30 dollar junker.
Also, I would love to see where you can find a good full or large mid-tower case for $30 dollars.
You know, that isn't made of plastic, or just "fell off a truck".
Shego, just go to Newegg, invest in some Scythe 120mm fans and a good 5.25"-bay fan controller.
You do not even know what case she has. I'm willing to bet that it has better airflow than you can get by drilling holes in a $30 dollar junker.
Also, I would love to see where you can find a good full or large mid-tower case for $30 dollars.
You know, that isn't made of plastic, or just "fell off a truck".
Shego, just go to Newegg, invest in some Scythe 120mm fans and a good 5.25"-bay fan controller.
Or Flourinert with a little help from LN[sub:2ykkbba5]2[/sub:2ykkbba5].Gill Kaiser said:
Also, I would be worried that drilling holes in any $30 case would weaken it to the point where it would collapse under its own weight...not the way to properly honor those components, that's for sure.
--Patrick
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Mr_Chaz
I cut a hole in my $120 case, probably wasn't worth the hassle, but I'm still glad I did.
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Chazwozel
Cuyval Dar said:
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications ... J-4050%20P
Ok ok 50 bucks.
And it's just a computer case, chief. Not a fucking rocket ship. It doesn't have to survive doing mach 3.
Necronic
Staff member
Doing the mineral oil immersion is safer than doing water cooling. I work with Swagelok compression fittings at work all day. These things are designed to take 2000lbs of pressure on a 1/4"line, they are pretty much the best of the best when it comes to good fittings. I have run water lines with that stuff many times, and pretty much every times I build something there will be a leak in the beginning. And this is with the best of the best 10$ a nut 45$ a union fitting:
You on the other hand will be using this:
with some tygon tubing and some copper wire. Its going to leak. Either the heat in the case softens the tubing a little, maybe the copper isn't on there tight enough, or god forbid some blockage gets in the tubing which will cause a pressure spike cause that tube will jump straight off.
Water cooling is a good way to fry a really nice system to get marginal performance benefits.
You on the other hand will be using this:
with some tygon tubing and some copper wire. Its going to leak. Either the heat in the case softens the tubing a little, maybe the copper isn't on there tight enough, or god forbid some blockage gets in the tubing which will cause a pressure spike cause that tube will jump straight off.
Water cooling is a good way to fry a really nice system to get marginal performance benefits.
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Cuyval Dar
Thanks for quoting, so that I could see this.Shegokigo said:Chazwozel said:
I said full or large mid-tower. That is a smaller mid-tower, and I doubt that it could fit a pair of GTX 295s, let alone the Core i7 heatsink.
Also, it is made out of cheap ass steel/plastic. The is room for only 3 fans with out making it look more like ass by cutting holes in it.
If you want a solid full tower with more than enough air-cooling power, check out the Cooler Master ATCS 840
Another option is the Silverstone Raven RV01
It may be a better choice for you, because it is designed to take the weight of dual-GPU cards like your GTX295 off of the motherboard.
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications ... CatId=1509
I sport this asshole. It basically has a helicopter blade on top for exhaust. It's surprisingly quiet too.
I sport this asshole. It basically has a helicopter blade on top for exhaust. It's surprisingly quiet too.
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Cuyval Dar
But the whole point of this thread was how she wants a better cooling setup for her huge-ass Core i7, soon to be SLI'd GTX 295s, and assorted other components.Frankie said:
There is no way in hell you will fit GTX 295s, let alone the Core i7 in most mid-towers, let alone that she wants a case that supports water cooling/epic air cooling.
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Chazwozel
Sigh... 200 bucks for a case?Cuyval Dar said:Thanks for quoting, so that I could see this.Shegokigo said:Chazwozel said:
I said full or large mid-tower. That is a smaller mid-tower, and I doubt that it could fit a pair of GTX 295s, let alone the Core i7 heatsink.
Also, it is made out of cheap a** steel/plastic. The is room for only 3 fans with out making it look more like a** by cutting holes in it.
If you want a solid full tower with more than enough air-cooling power, check out the Cooler Master ATCS 840
Another option is the Silverstone Raven RV01
It may be a better choice for you, because it is designed to take the weight of dual-GPU cards like your GTX295 off of the motherboard.
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crono1224
If she is going for i7, and double gtx 295's I am thinking money isn't an issue, though what do i know.Chazwozel said:Sigh... 200 bucks for a case?
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Cuyval Dar
Thanks for quoting, Crono.crono1224 said:If she is going for i7, and double gtx 295's I am thinking money isn't an issue, though what do i know.Chazwozel said:Sigh... 200 bucks for a case?
I love it when idiot ricers think that its ok to put thousands of dollars into a system, and then assemble it in a case that will collapse under the weight.
With either of the cases that I mentioned, there is great air cooling built in, and in the case (unintentional pun) of the ATCS 840, it make it easy to add water cooling. Shego needs a case that is durable, offers sufficient cooling out of the box (After all, she prebuilt from ibuypower.com, rather than Newegg the system.) and can fit two giant GTX 295s.
The $30 junker that Chaz suggested modding offers none of those, and I can garantee it will look like ass.
[spoiler:3r4oq9tb]In retrospect, of course, that may be the best choice for Chaz, because like pets, computers match their owners.
And that clearly explains why Shego bought a smokin' hot rig![/spoiler:3r4oq9tb]
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crono1224
I understand his sentiments that if you can do it on the cheap its better to do it yourself, self case moding is not inherently easy or cheap. I think i got http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129043 for around 100$ on sale, and that had all that i needed, and for the extra 50$ it didn't look like a 3rd grader with plastic scissors tried to mod it.Cuyval Dar said:Thanks for quoting, Crono.crono1224 said:If she is going for i7, and double gtx 295's I am thinking money isn't an issue, though what do i know.Chazwozel said:Sigh... 200 bucks for a case?
I love it when idiot ricers think that its ok to put thousands of dollars into a system, and then assemble it in a case that will collapse under the weight.
With either of the cases that I mentioned, there is great air cooling built in, and in the case (unintentional pun) of the ATCS 840, it make it easy to add water cooling. Shego needs a case that is durable, offers sufficient cooling out of the box (After all, she prebuilt from ibuypower.com, rather than Newegg the system.) and can fit two giant GTX 295s.
The $30 junker that Chaz suggested modding offers none of those, and I can garantee it will look like a**.
[spoiler:9wdl6o6l]In retrospect, of course, that may be the best choice for Chaz, because like pets, computers match their owners.
And that clearly explains why Shego bought a smokin' hot rig![/spoiler:9wdl6o6l]
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Cuyval Dar
And I fully understand that. Don't get me wrong, I love modding. A project that I did with my uncle several years back was making a Transformers case, and it came out beautifully.crono1224 said:I understand his sentiments that if you can do it on the cheap its better to do it yourself, self case moding is not inherently easy or cheap. I think i got http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129043 for around 100$ on sale, and that had all that i needed, and for the extra 50$ it didn't look like a 3rd grader with plastic scissors tried to mod it.Cuyval Dar said:Thanks for quoting, Crono.crono1224 said:If she is going for i7, and double gtx 295's I am thinking money isn't an issue, though what do i know.Chazwozel said:Sigh... 200 bucks for a case?
I love it when idiot ricers think that its ok to put thousands of dollars into a system, and then assemble it in a case that will collapse under the weight.
With either of the cases that I mentioned, there is great air cooling built in, and in the case (unintentional pun) of the ATCS 840, it make it easy to add water cooling. Shego needs a case that is durable, offers sufficient cooling out of the box (After all, she prebuilt from ibuypower.com, rather than Newegg the system.) and can fit two giant GTX 295s.
The $30 junker that Chaz suggested modding offers none of those, and I can garantee it will look like a**.
[spoiler:1zinypy7]In retrospect, of course, that may be the best choice for Chaz, because like pets, computers match their owners.
And that clearly explains why Shego bought a smokin' hot rig![/spoiler:1zinypy7]
Most of the great modding projects come about when people build something from scratch, or modify a higher-end case to suit their needs.
It's just kind of difficult to take a cheap-ass case and expect to build it to the same quality of craftmanship as Lian-Li, Silverstone, or Cooler Master can.
I,for one, would prefer to buy a nice case that I know will suit my present and future needs.
Do you want your $4000 rig to implode during a move or while enroute to a LAN party?
I think not.
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Chazwozel
Ricers? collapse under the weight? Are you high?Cuyval Dar said:Thanks for quoting, Crono.crono1224 said:If she is going for i7, and double gtx 295's I am thinking money isn't an issue, though what do i know.Chazwozel said:Sigh... 200 bucks for a case?
I love it when idiot ricers think that its ok to put thousands of dollars into a system, and then assemble it in a case that will collapse under the weight.
With either of the cases that I mentioned, there is great air cooling built in, and in the case (unintentional pun) of the ATCS 840, it make it easy to add water cooling. Shego needs a case that is durable, offers sufficient cooling out of the box (After all, she prebuilt from ibuypower.com, rather than Newegg the system.) and can fit two giant GTX 295s.
The $30 junker that Chaz suggested modding offers none of those, and I can garantee it will look like a**.
In retrospect, of course, that may be the best choice for Chaz, because like pets, computers match their owners.
And that clearly explains why Shego bought a smokin' hot rig!
Earth to moron. Dude, it's a computer case.
http://www.xoxide.com/clearacatxca.html Here's my case. 60 bucks and it hasn't fallen apart 'under its own weight'. Although I do get a little scared when it's flying over Russian territory at Mach 1.
And I'm always sure to invite as many women over to my office to show off my computer case. Everyone knows that an awesome looking computer gets 'em wet.
Here. Full Tower. Metal. Two HUGE side fans.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6811215009
70 bucks. A fraction of the money you'd waste on anything more expensive.
This little pissing contest is getting pathetic though. It's a fucking computer case. Sheg, I got a decent 50 dollar one in my closet if you want it. Just pay me the shipping fees.
Case wars aside (ahem)...
If you are going to use liquid to cool any computer component, you are going to run into the eventual problem of leakage. It will either be slow and minute (such as that experienced by PowerMac G5s) or it will be sudden and catastrophic (hose bursts, pops off a fitting, sprays down the inside of your computer, etc).
The best liquid to use in cooling systems is good ol' water (which is why it is in car radiators). That's because it has one of the highest specific heats of any terrestrial liquid. Basically this means that it takes more energy to raise the temperature of water by one degree than it does to raise the temperature of, say, alcohol. Plus, water is very common and easy to acquire. Unfortunately, water conducts electricity*, is corrosive, and it is prone to fill up with algae and slime if not maintained.
The best compromise liquid appears to be mineral oil. It is less biologically active, it is non-corrosive and it doesn't conduct electricity (which is why it is often used in
). If you experience a catastrophic leak, you will have a greasy, wet computer, but it will not outright die (assuming you turn it off before the components overheat due to lack of cooling).
However, even the best liquid cooling system can't cool your components lower than ambient temperature (without getting exotic). This means it is a good idea not to run your machine in a room that is so warm that you wouldn't be comfortable sitting in it either. Some ways around this are to submerge your external cooling radiator in a bucket of ice water or to experiment with Thermal-Electric Cooling (TEC). Adding TEC units into the loop can assist in keeping a system cool, but they can significantly increase the power requirement of a setup, and if they are used too aggressively, they also create a risk of condensation forming on/near components, and then we're back to the aforementioned water problems.
If liquid and/or liquid+TEC is not enough for you, you should look into phase change systems (essentially building a refrigerator/freezer into your computer), but then we're talking impressive cost. In my opinion, if you have to push a consumer system beyond liquid+TEC, you're probably chasing that dream a little too hard. If your way of life legitimately depends on getting an extra 3-5fps out of a rig, then maybe, just maybe you could consider it justified.
Plenty of interesting hardware here.
--Patrick
*Pure water does not conduct electricity. Pure water is also extremely hard to create and maintain.
If you are going to use liquid to cool any computer component, you are going to run into the eventual problem of leakage. It will either be slow and minute (such as that experienced by PowerMac G5s) or it will be sudden and catastrophic (hose bursts, pops off a fitting, sprays down the inside of your computer, etc).
The best liquid to use in cooling systems is good ol' water (which is why it is in car radiators). That's because it has one of the highest specific heats of any terrestrial liquid. Basically this means that it takes more energy to raise the temperature of water by one degree than it does to raise the temperature of, say, alcohol. Plus, water is very common and easy to acquire. Unfortunately, water conducts electricity*, is corrosive, and it is prone to fill up with algae and slime if not maintained.
The best compromise liquid appears to be mineral oil. It is less biologically active, it is non-corrosive and it doesn't conduct electricity (which is why it is often used in
However, even the best liquid cooling system can't cool your components lower than ambient temperature (without getting exotic). This means it is a good idea not to run your machine in a room that is so warm that you wouldn't be comfortable sitting in it either. Some ways around this are to submerge your external cooling radiator in a bucket of ice water or to experiment with Thermal-Electric Cooling (TEC). Adding TEC units into the loop can assist in keeping a system cool, but they can significantly increase the power requirement of a setup, and if they are used too aggressively, they also create a risk of condensation forming on/near components, and then we're back to the aforementioned water problems.
If liquid and/or liquid+TEC is not enough for you, you should look into phase change systems (essentially building a refrigerator/freezer into your computer), but then we're talking impressive cost. In my opinion, if you have to push a consumer system beyond liquid+TEC, you're probably chasing that dream a little too hard. If your way of life legitimately depends on getting an extra 3-5fps out of a rig, then maybe, just maybe you could consider it justified.
Plenty of interesting hardware here.
--Patrick
*Pure water does not conduct electricity. Pure water is also extremely hard to create and maintain.
Protip: Just like you see in that video, do NOT submerge the mechanical parts of the computer (CD/DVD, HDD). They can't work correctly when wet (The oil's refractivity will bork the ODD laser, and HDDs need to breathe air in and out for expansion reasons) and you will never be able to get them clean enough to work properly ever again.
--Patrick
--Patrick
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Chazwozel
Not if you're me and have access to reverse osmosis processed deionized water.PatrThom said:
-- Sun Jul 19, 2009 6:50 pm --
Shegokigo said:
But Shego. He used plastic and acrylic. That case is garbage.
He needs to throw a plastic fish or two in there and some aquarium plastic plants.
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