S
Soliloquy
Do you know who else didn't speak his mind about the ATF? Hitler.
[News] Mass shooting at Sikh temple in Wisconsin
- Thread starter Charlie Don't Surf
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I suppose I should amend my earlier statement: I would be fine with a federally run agency that enforced the laws that a federal government set up... as long as it's not the ATF. Their incompetence, greed, and just general blood thirst has caused more than one massacre.
GasBandit
Staff member
My problem there is, you know where they'd get the folks to plan, organize and implement this new agency?
Knowing how our government has worked over the past 10 years, they'd hire Xi/Blackwater to set it up. Baring that, yeah, they'd fuck it up and use the ATF to set it up. Possibly the HSA or NSA, which aren't exactly better.
Yeah, I just have this idea that the current system is like herding cats, whereas there could be a centralized system that...uh...corrals the cats. (?)
That is a very good point. And believe me, "fuck the ATF" (along with "punch Eric Holder in his tiny nutsack") is not an unknown sentiment chez ZenMonkey.
GasBandit
Staff member
So, in vaguely related news, the Arizona shooter pled guilty today.
it's kind of sad that it's hard for me to keep track of all the mass shooters off the top of my head
S
Soliloquy
Goddamnit Charlie you just made me depressed.
I think there would be several intractable problems, the biggest of which is the idea that one size fits all. Even if the states were culturally homogeneous, they are wildly different in aspects important to self protection. You couldn't successfully apply rhode islands gun laws and needs to Alaska and Texas. Even if you remove human targets from the equation, all three places have very different animal control issues, and in the case of the latter two some of the animals or herds are able to kill humans.
Of course you could come up with a single set of rules with loopholes to ensure everyone's needs are met, but do we really need another IRS tax code to deal with gun laws, with loopholes big enough to drive a tractor trailor full of semiautomatic weapons through?
Further, who would perform enforcement? Right now it's local authorities enforcing local laws for the people who actually got those laws put in place. If we move it to a federal level, then you either face no enforcement because the federal govt isn't going to adequately reimburse local enforcement of federal statutes, or you face another huge policing organization, or simply task the FBI with Yet Another Federal Law To Enforce that can't possibly be enforced except in the largest cases. They aren't going to have the manpower to track down a single gun violation.
Consider drug enforcement as an example of the problem. There is a mixture of federal law and federal funding and federal enforcement, but all the small stuff is ignored federally, and so states have had to come up with more restrictive laws anyway and enforce them locally because the FBI and ATF aren't going to deal with minor infractions.
Is it possible to enforce gun laws better than they've been enforcing drug laws at the federal level?
I do think that the federal government could help out with getting states together, though. Concealed carry laws are different, and there a several different reciprocal agreements between states, and different laws governing them. But you can't currently expect that your ccw license will work across state boundaries unless you've researched it. Further there are advantages to getting your license in one state over the others where you might be eligible to get it.
It would be nice if the federal government helped normalize some of the laws between the states, but i don't think that moving the whole kit and caboodle up to the federal government is a good idea on any other level.
All right. A little information for those of you who are just thinking "WTF" and everything:
- The Sikh Temple where this shooting happened is located on Howell Avenue in Oak Creek. That might not sound important, but it is if you know Oak Creek. It is about a mile or two due south of Mitchell Field (aka General Mitchell International Airport).
- The idiot who did the shooting is not only ex-army, but he apparently purchased the guns (legally) at an arms dealer that was likely just down the road. I know this because there's a lot of different strip malls and such along Howell, mostly because of what I pointed out in the previous point.
- This isn't the only Sikh Temple in the southeastern Wisconsin area. There is one in my old stomping grounds in Pewaukee, practically across the street from the Wal-Mart and the new Costco. I believe there is also one on the north side of Milwaukee (where there's pretty much one center for each major religion, though I'm not sure about a Shinto temple or any Buddhist temples).
- Oak Creek is most notable for being a 'burb of Milwaukee, with the annoying distraction of jet noise from MKE.
- There are likely many former Army/Air Force vets who live in the area, because of the former site of the 440th Tactical Squadron and 128th AF Air Refueling Bases that shared Mitchell Field.
- In general, when I lived in Racine, Oak Creek was about as far into Milwaukee as I really ever wanted to go. Which is telling you something about Milwaukee.
That seems like a reasonable conclusion.
Let this be all I have to say about that...
There is no real beef with Jay. But the 'Merica! Did piss me off and I wanted to lash out in kind. It was a cheap shot and uncalled for. What has been said cannot be unsaid (deletion doesn't mean I didn't post it), but I wish I hadn't said it.
There is no real beef with Jay. But the 'Merica! Did piss me off and I wanted to lash out in kind. It was a cheap shot and uncalled for. What has been said cannot be unsaid (deletion doesn't mean I didn't post it), but I wish I hadn't said it.
I agree almost completely with Stienman. I'm all in favour of more gun control, as you might've picked up, but just putting all of it to the federal level won't solve anything and will cause illogical (in)consistencies. Anyone with half a brain will have to agree that there's a difference in owning, say, a hunting rifle when living in Alaksa vs living in Manhattan (which doesn't mean I think it should be impossible to own a hunting rifle in Manhattan. But there'll be less people needing it for legitimate reasons, and there's a lot more that can go wrong, so it's probably a good idea to be more restrictive and have more control over it all).
A federal bureau of some sort comparing and rationalizing state laws, and checking the permit suppliers/enforcement of the laws by the states/whatever might work, if it's not a corrupt band of desk jockeys or incompetent gun nuts (or one of many other negative stereotypes possible). Making and enforcing the laws themselves would probably be better off at a state level.
While I'm definitely not GasBandit, I do think lots of things are better taken care of at lower levels. See the EU and how detached from all reality and democracy our highest levels are getting...*sigh*
A federal bureau of some sort comparing and rationalizing state laws, and checking the permit suppliers/enforcement of the laws by the states/whatever might work, if it's not a corrupt band of desk jockeys or incompetent gun nuts (or one of many other negative stereotypes possible). Making and enforcing the laws themselves would probably be better off at a state level.
While I'm definitely not GasBandit, I do think lots of things are better taken care of at lower levels. See the EU and how detached from all reality and democracy our highest levels are getting...*sigh*
GasBandit
Staff member
And you guys have only been at it a few years! Imagine what it is after 200 or so! Yeeesh.
Just keep in mind that Europe has half the area of the US and nearly double the population, and on top of that is very highly urbanized. Politics are going to be very different due to population distribution alone.
116 people per square kilometer for the EU vs 34 people per square kilometer for the US.
116 people per square kilometer for the EU vs 34 people per square kilometer for the US.
To be fair, the EU was formed of preexisting countries with long standing rivalries and significant economic diversity. There were always going to be power players in the group because of this. More to the point, as long as countries like Germany (who basically finance the entire operation) are freely able to LEAVE the EU, they'll be able to call all the shots.
Nah,we got so much riding on the EU we are more or less bound to this ship.
Pfft. Germany won't leave their Europe-unified-under-German-rule. They finally have what they wanted! (I kid, I kid)
Anyway, there's "power players" wherever, the difference of schale between Germany and, say, Greece, isn't that much different from California or New York vs Hawaii or South Dakota or whatever crappy little states of no real impact on national policy you care to think of
Besides, technically, nobody's free to leave. Yes, there's lots of discussion going on about Greece, and I'm willing to bet they will leave - but in the joining declaration of the EU, and all of its treaties and whatnots, not once is it stated anywhere, how, or why, or iunder what conditions, leaving the EU is possible or even allowed. No, we couldn't stop Germany if they wanted to leave...But there's no protocols for them doing so.
Tell that to the Belgian government and thze idiots who maintain we're a unitary state and our regions don't need separate economic or social politics. 456 people per square kilometer for Flanders vs 198 ppkm² for Wallonia (and we consider that lightely populated! What the hell do you Americans do with all that space?! (...oh, right, build houses bigger than matchboxes.
)A lot of the space we don't use for living is farmland, industrial areas, parks/protected areas, or just plain too far from water/infrastructure to be useful. There's also those huge mountain ranges, an entire desert, and miles of Alaskan wilderness.
All of that applies to Nepal as well (overh alf the country is pretty much vertical), and their ppkm² is still 194. There's six times as many people living in Nepal, per area, as in the USA. That's madness.
(Tibet only has 1/10th of your pop density, though, so I'm sort of cherrypicking. Still, I knew the USA had a much lower density than us but I didn't realize the difference was that big)
Move to Michigan. The housing market is depressed right now so you can get a 2400 square foot (222sq meters) home with a quarter acre of land (1,000 sq m) for under $90,000 [USD], or less than $800 per month on a thirty year loan. Within bus distance to a minor city, and bicycle distance to major stores (grocery, hardware, electronics, etc).
I own a 65m² apartment on the outskirts of Brussels, and it's valued at slightly over double that. That's just wrong. I want to trade my small theoretically-two-bedroom apartment for two big houses with huge gardens
M
Magister Moonie
Can you get a job in Michigan?
Well if it makes you feel better, my place used to be valued at slightly over double that too, until the housing bubble popped and the car industry crashed.I own a 65m² apartment on the outskirts of Brussels, and it's valued at slightly over double that. That's just wrong. I want to trade my small theoretically-two-bedroom apartment for two big houses with huge gardens
Still, land: they aren't making more of it (except for the Japanese. Obligatory MOON PEOPLE reference )[DOUBLEPOST=1344439340][/DOUBLEPOST]
Well I can.
Michigan unemployment has finally returned to average for the US. It's still high, but so is the US. There are only twelve states with worse unemployment rate, though, so it's not as good as, say, Utah or Massachusetts.
As long as you have a degree in a good field, you shouldn't have a problem getting a job here.[DOUBLEPOST=1344439395][/DOUBLEPOST]
And about a million dollars in California. The difference in cost of living around the us is very interesting.
FBI is reporting the gunman shot himself in the head after being shot in the stomach.
And Dubai and Qatar. And the Dutch. And, technically, us. We're still adding bits of land we're stealing from the sea, too.
And while I have two degrees, I doubt anyone's looking for a philosopher or a cultural management specialist
Heh, you might be surprised. I suspect that your second degree would be particularly useful for companies merging across borders, setting up new business units in other countries, and helping companies trying to deal with difficult outsourcing issues.And while I have two degrees, I doubt anyone's looking for a philosopher or a cultural management specialist
There's a ton of that going on in the US as a whole, and definitely in Michigan, given that the automotive suppliers make nearly everything that goes into a car outside the US. Mostly Mexico and Canada due to NAFTA, but a lot of stuff comes from Vietnam, Korea, china, Taiwan, and the Philippines. Not just parts, but a ton of programming, design work, etc.
The whole Volvo/Ford thing could have used a good cultural management specialist.
Not to mention the fact that designers and marketers need to better know how to get their products sold overseas. The fact that few American cars are successful in Europe as-is is due to culture, and a lot of that could be overcome if they understood better how people there view vehicles. Also if the lot of you would finally agree to drive on the right side of the road.
BananaHands
Staff member
Minotaur Penis?
You're talking about Minotaur Penis, right?
GasBandit
Staff member
It's always fun to go rafting with europeans in Colorado and watch them gape at all the empty, undeveloped land right on the river as we splash down the Arkansas.I own a 65m² apartment on the outskirts of Brussels, and it's valued at slightly over double that. That's just wrong. I want to trade my small theoretically-two-bedroom apartment for two big houses with huge gardens
North_Ranger
Staff member
Boy, I oughta slap you silly for explaining the joke.Minotaur Penis?
You're talking about Minotaur Penis, right?
Boy, I oughtta slap you for missing his joke. Go watch Super Troopers.
GasBandit
Staff member
And you missed a perfectly good opportunity to further the gag by threatening to pistol whip him.
Hey now. That's just those islanders off the coast of France. They're silly.
And Cretans.
And Egyptians, I think?
Oh, and South Africa and India, but they're not around here, either.
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