New healthcare bill isn't dreaded socialism

[The Messiah]

I'm talking about honest hard working people who can't make it in a system that's inherently stacked against them.

Stacked against them due to endless political machinations. Go ahead and read everything that I have said in this thread so far (notice I didn't say ''re-read'') and then come back and pick up the rest of this post.

See, every time a stupid, corrupt and morally bankrupt politician (all of them) makes a stupid, corrupt and morally bankrupt decision (all of them) on legislation, rule of law or even which prostitute to spend taxpayer money on, we look a little less like the America that the founders intended. Because we have moved so far away from self reliance and the expectation of resposibility on a personal level that the government tells us when to look and when to leap, what we can and cannot do in our jobs, in our business and even in our personal lives.

Like I said, the Amerika we inhabit today bears little resemblance to what the founders intended.

The government which governs least, governs best. The more involved the feds get, the larger the federal government grows and the more difficult it becomes to succeed through our own efforts. The message here is that the states need to take back the rights that were always intended to be state's rights and the federal government needs to be largely dismantled, until it vaguely resembles what was set forth in the constitution of the United States of America.

I have gotten so far from the intent of this thread... The way to fix the health care problem is to kick out all the illegal immigrants (enforce existing laws), force people to pay their doctor bills (the cause of inflation of medical service costs) and move to a more efficient method of treatment and record keeping (sharing medical info between providers via the web, just like Obama wants, can't believe I am agreeing with him but it's a good idea). I also like the idea of medical savings accounts that start at birth and rollover to your heirs at death. Might work, might not, but it deserves consideration at the very least.

-- Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:16 pm --

A few posts ago you called somebody out in being apathetic (the FTFY post). Now you're the one being a defeatist. People like to live walking towards ideals, and today's collective ego has chosen to not let someone die puking blood on the sidewalk because they couldn't afford their treatment, even though it was available to them. This isn't about hungry people next to empty stores (yadda yadda starving african children) but the ones we have resources to help and the proximity to not be easy to ignore them.

Nobody is advocating withholding treatment from the poor. Making a way for that treatment to get paid for, that is the crux of the discussion. I paid off my student loans at $50 a month. That is just one option out of millions that don't call for socialization of medicine, which is just a way for politicians to increase their power.

 

[crono1224]

It is funny when people say government can't run healthcare yet you let them run your police force, fire department and army.

Also that comment about doctor only getting paid like 300$, that shit already happens with insurance companies I have had plenty of surgeries and hospitals stays paid by insurance, when you look at the bill the original amount is like 100+thousand, the insurance only pays at MOST 50% of that, more likely 20-30%. But if you went in without insurance you sure as hell aren't getting this amazing discounted prices.

Also survival of the fittest doesn't really apply anymore when you put laws into place, else I just say we bust in your house rob you and live well off your means.

 

[Mr_Chaz]

[quote="@Li3n":1wnff05p]Who exactly tells him teh surgery is worth 1000$?!

The doctor who is providing the service. You know, the guy charging for the service.

Who is much more justified in stealing from you then the government is stealing from him?!

This isn't some random good you can live without, but what should be necessary surgery/treatment... the price should be determined by actual costs to perform it + enough money so the doctor won't starve (note the exaggeration, your country's not Africa).

Sure, if the government is going for under that they're assholes and it shouldn't be allowed, but if they're not... tough cookies.[/quote:1wnff05p]

Exactly this, the price should not be decided by the doctor, but by the cost of the treatment. You seriously don't mind charging someone $1000 for a treatment that costs $300? You don't think that's unfair on people who don't have a massive amount of money?

You hear stories of people paying $24 000 for an emergency removal of an appendix and overnight stay. 24 hours of treatment costs $24 000? That's a year's income for a lot of people! And it's not like you have a massive amount of choice when it's an emergency treatment.

 

[The Messiah]

Also survival of the fittest doesn't really apply anymore when you put laws into place, else I just say we bust in your house rob you and live well off your means.

Fittest referring to being smart, competent, capable, hard working etc etc. Your definition seems to mean ''I can kill you, so you have to give me your women.'' This isn't Mad Max... Yet.

 

[Steven Soderburgin]

Nobody is advocating withholding treatment from the poor.

You actually are, essentially. With spewing your Libertarian catchphrases (how many fucking times have you posted "The government which governs least, governs best" at this point?) and saying in so many words that poor people should pull themselves up by their bootstraps, you're advocating withholding treatment from the poor. Because if you want the poor to just pay their medical bills, which is your overly simplistic and ignorant argument for how to fix the health care crisis, they would have to stop being poor, which is nearly impossible. If they can't stop being poor, then the only way to drive costs down and maintain the ridiculous and horrible free market for-profit health care industry you are jizzing over is to deny them care. If they can't pay, they don't get treatment. Otherwise costs will keep going up and up and up.

 

[The Messiah]

Nobody is advocating withholding treatment from the poor.

You actually are, essentially. With spewing your Libertarian catchphrases (how many smurfing times have you posted "The government which governs least, governs best" at this point?) and saying in so many words that poor people should pull themselves up by their bootstraps, you're advocating withholding treatment from the poor. Because if you want the poor to just pay their medical bills, which is your overly simplistic and ignorant argument for how to fix the health care crisis, they would have to stop being poor, which is nearly impossible. If they can't stop being poor, then the only way to drive costs down and maintain the ridiculous and horrible free market for-profit health care industry you are jizzing over is to deny them care. If they can't pay, they don't get treatment. Otherwise costs will keep going up and up and up.

Yep, you got me. That is exactly what I said. Exactly. Stop being poor you piece of shit!

Considering I live in abject poverty, can't afford to move out of my parents back yard where I live in my pull behind camper, am considering selling my pickup and getting a motorcycle (despite my abject terror of motorcycles) so I can stop paying auto insurance, haven't collected a paycheck in months and have no prospects of any gainful future employment, my first response is to say ''FUCK THE POOR!''

You got me, man. You win. I'm just a Libertarian/Republican/mindless political pundit that regurgitates everything Rush Limbaugh says because I have no original thoughts in my head. Your right, the poor can't pay their bills, even if they break it down to $10 a month for 800 months. There are no alternatives, the government should pay for everything because that will boost the economy and lower taxes and we will be an economic powerhouse filled with healthy people from around the world. You win. Game over, man. Game over.

 

[Steven Soderburgin]

Yep, you got me. That is exactly what I said. Exactly. Stop being poor you piece of shit!

Considering I live in abject poverty, can't afford to move out of my parents back yard where I live in my pull behind camper, am considering selling my pickup and getting a motorcycle (despite my abject terror of motorcycles) so I can stop paying auto insurance, haven't collected a paycheck in months and have no prospects of any gainful future employment, my first response is to say ''FUCK THE POOR!''

You got me, man. You win. I'm just a Libertarian/Republican/mindless political pundit that regurgitates everything Rush Limbaugh says because I have no original thoughts in my head. Your right, the poor can't pay their bills, even if they break it down to $10 a month for 800 months. There are no alternatives, the government should pay for everything because that will boost the economy and lower taxes and we will be an economic powerhouse filled with healthy people from around the world. You win. Game over, man. Game over.

I didn't say the government should pay for everything, but you DID actually say that the solution to the health care crisis is to force poor people to just pay their bills, which are insanely high and (as stated before) the leading cause of bankruptcy and debt in the country. You said that right here:

The way to fix the health care problem is to ... force people to pay their doctor bills (the cause of inflation of medical service costs)

This is so extremely short sighted and ignorant to the realities of the situation that I cannot believe that you, as someone who claims to live in "abject poverty" (yet still has the money to afford a computer and internet?) would support anything like this.

EDIT: Seriously, how would you even have them enforce this? Do a credit check before you get emergency room service if you don't have insurance? if you don't pass, sorry about that gunshot, man, that seriously sucks.

 

[Chazwozel]

Yep, you got me. That is exactly what I said. Exactly. Stop being poor you piece of poop!

Considering I live in abject poverty, can't afford to move out of my parents back yard where I live in my pull behind camper, am considering selling my pickup and getting a motorcycle (despite my abject terror of motorcycles) so I can stop paying auto insurance, haven't collected a paycheck in months and have no prospects of any gainful future employment, my first response is to say ''smurf THE POOR!''

You got me, man. You win. I'm just a Libertarian/Republican/mindless political pundit that regurgitates everything Rush Limbaugh says because I have no original thoughts in my head. Your right, the poor can't pay their bills, even if they break it down to $10 a month for 800 months. There are no alternatives, the government should pay for everything because that will boost the economy and lower taxes and we will be an economic powerhouse filled with healthy people from around the world. You win. Game over, man. Game over.

I didn't say the government should pay for everything, but you DID actually say that the solution to the health care crisis is to force poor people to just pay their bills, which are insanely high and (as stated before) the leading cause of bankruptcy and debt in the country. You said that right here:

The way to fix the health care problem is to ... force people to pay their doctor bills (the cause of inflation of medical service costs)

This is so extremely short sighted and ignorant to the realities of the situation that I cannot believe that you, as someone who claims to live in "abject poverty" (yet still has the money to afford a computer and internet?) would support anything like this.

EDIT: Seriously, the only way to enforce this is to do a credit check before you get emergency room service if you don't have insurance, and if you don't pass, sorry about that gunshot, man, that seriously sucks.

I think this whole republican push for privatized insurance is a big conspiracy so they don't have to share their good doctors and treatments with lowlife, scum sucking people that make under 30k a year. I mean seriously you guys, those poor people aren't really people are they? We should allocate them to vet clinics and zoos! :tumbleweed: What?

 

[Denbrought]

(...) even if they break it down to $10 a month for 800 months.

I doubt many loaners would even fleetingly consider giving such a credit if we were to go turn america into the vision you're expressing here, thus again fucking with the ones who can't pay.

 

[Chazwozel]

(...) even if they break it down to $10 a month for 800 months.

I doubt many loaners would even fleetingly consider giving such a credit if we were to go turn america into the vision you're expressing here, thus again smurfing with the ones who can't pay.

70 year loans for all! THAT'S THE SOLUTION!!!!!!!!!!

 

[The Messiah]

The Messiah wrote:
Yep, you got me. That is exactly what I said. Exactly. Stop being poor you piece of shit!

Considering I live in abject poverty, can't afford to move out of my parents back yard where I live in my pull behind camper, am considering selling my pickup and getting a motorcycle (despite my abject terror of motorcycles) so I can stop paying auto insurance, haven't collected a paycheck in months and have no prospects of any gainful future employment, my first response is to say ''FUCK THE POOR!''

You got me, man. You win. I'm just a Libertarian/Republican/mindless political pundit that regurgitates everything Rush Limbaugh says because I have no original thoughts in my head. Your right, the poor can't pay their bills, even if they break it down to $10 a month for 800 months. There are no alternatives, the government should pay for everything because that will boost the economy and lower taxes and we will be an economic powerhouse filled with healthy people from around the world. You win. Game over, man. Game over.

I didn't say the government should pay for everything, but you DID actually say that the solution to the health care crisis is to force poor people to just pay their bills, which are insanely high and (as stated before) the leading cause of bankruptcy and debt in the country. You said that right here:
Quote:
The way to fix the health care problem is to ... force people to pay their doctor bills (the cause of inflation of medical service costs)

This is so extremely short sighted and ignorant to the realities of the situation that I cannot believe that you, as someone who claims to live in "abject poverty" (yet still has the money to afford a computer and internet?) would support anything like this.

Look, man, i don't wanna make this a personal attack, but you seem to be picking apart the thread and keeping only the parts you want.

1) You have to pay your bills, medical or otherwise. Get over it. Installment plan, savings accounts, whatever. This will bring down the crazy ass prices that are only inflated because so few people actually PAY their bill.

2) We have to make healthcare more efficient and get prices down so people CAN pay their bill (Just like Buttcrack Obama keeps saying)

3) My personal financial situation has nothing to do with the financial situation of this great nation, but yes, I do have 3 computers (1.7ghz DELL, 1ghz DELL and a 1.5ghz (I think) Athlon whitebox I built real cheap that my brother uses). My shit is ancient and were all bought used to begin with, although heavily modified by yours truly with whatever junk I could find to replace shitty DELL onboard video/audio etc etc. My family has an internet connection. They also have cable television, DVRs, electricity, running hot and cold water and a functioning structure in which they dwell.

That is more personal information than I have ever revealed to anyone, but my point is that I am not wealthy, nor am I Republican or libertarian. Although I might be Libertarian, since I'm not sure what that means. I am not a political creature, I only seek logic in all things.

For example, I am not wild about abortion. I am also not wild about creating a victim class of women who have to resort to back alley coat hanger horror story abortions because the practice is forbidden. Therefore I feel abortion should be legal.

Same with prostitution. By criminalizing the activity, we create a victim class of women who have nowhere to turn in times of desperation.

See how that works? Individual opinions for individual scenarios. I think therefore I am... not a sheep, following a political affiliation mindlessly while jumping off a bridge because someone else did it first.

 

[Steven Soderburgin]

Look, man, i don't wanna make this a personal attack, but you seem to be picking apart the thread and keeping only the parts you want.

I figured that with the Libertarian rhetoric you were spewing (and that's exactly what it is. No matter your positions on anything else, your reverence for the free market is exactly in step with the Libertarian party line, and I suspect you know that, because you use a lot of the same catch phrases) you wouldn't be worth arguing with, but I was appalled by that particular point I addressed.

1) You have to pay your bills, medical or otherwise. Get over it. Installment plan, savings accounts, whatever. This will bring down the crazy ass prices that are only inflated because so few people actually PAY their bill.

Yes, I understand the point. But the reasons that so many hospital bills don't get paid is because people simply cannot afford them. It isn't like health care debt is the same as someone running up credit cards buying TVs and shit can't afford. It's from going to the emergency room to get needed care. People don't get preventative care because they can't afford it, they end up going to the emergency room which is more expensive, and they still can't afford it. So they go into debt. Prices go up, everyone pays more, the cycle continues. You can't just wave a magic wand and make everyone pay their bills.

2) We have to make healthcare more efficient and get prices down so people CAN pay their bill (Just like Buttcrack Obama keeps saying)

I absolutely agree, though I was almost tempted to completely ignore anything you have to say because of your "Buttcrack Obama" comment. The question is how do we do that. Perhaps providing a public option would force the labyrinthine behemoth that is the health care industry to fix itself in order to compete.

As for everything else, I'm not really interested in your personal situation, but in order to base things on logic, you need to figure in all the variables, something you seem vehemently opposed to doing.

 

[The Messiah]

What catch phrases? You should be responsible? You should work hard to succeed? I think they call that being American. Is that a political party? The Americans? If so, I'm in. Stop trying to hide behind silly labels and stick to debating the subject at hand.

I repeat: YOU HAVE TO PAY YOUR BILLS. That is how you ''fix'' healthcare, by paying the tab. Installment plan, savings account, insurance, the list goes on. I am not saying I have a magic solution as to HOW the bill gets paid, I am just saying taht it HAS to be paid, every time. Similar to shoplifting, those who don't pay make it more costly for those who do. See how simple that is? Now, just give it a rest with the political bullshit already, you are boring me to tears.

 

[Iaculus]

Oh, dude, you fail at evolution. 'Survival of the fittest' means 'survival of those best suited to their current environment'. No more, no less.

Ed Zachary

Wait, what definition are we going for here?

If you mean 'your face looks like your ass', then screw you for the cheap ad hominem.

If you mean 'exactly', then I think you misunderstand. There is nothing inherently virtuous about survival of the fittest - it just means that people's success rate is being tailored according to the situation present. If corruption is rewarded, you'll get corrupt people. If having a rich mum and dad is rewarded, then you'll get an aristocracy (formal or otherwise). See what I mean?

 

[Espy]

You know, calling The President "Buttcrack" isn't going to get your points heard any better. A little civility goes a long way. :heythere:

 

[Steven Soderburgin]

What catch phrases? You should be responsible? You should work hard to succeed? I think they call that being American. Is that a political party? The Americans? If so, I'm in.

Oh my god, you are a joke and you don't know what you're talking about, fuck.

Stop trying to hide behind silly labels and stick to debating the subject at hand.

You are telling me to start "debating." Amazing. Amazing.

I repeat: YOU HAVE TO PAY YOUR BILLS. That is how you ''fix'' healthcare, by paying the tab. Installment plan, savings account, insurance, the list goes on. I am not saying I have a magic solution as to HOW the bill gets paid, I am just saying taht it HAS to be paid, every time. Similar to shoplifting, those who don't pay make it more costly for those who do. See how simple that is? Now, just give it a rest with the political bullshit already, you are boring me to tears.

I understand all this. Yes, I get it. I agree that if people paid their bills, health care costs will go down. BUT IT IS NOT AS SIMPLE AS THAT. There are REASONS that the bills don't get paid. There are REASONS that health care is the biggest cause of bankruptcy. I have explained all of this. In order to fix health care, you have to fix THOSE issues. YOU DUMB FUCK.

Fuck it. You have no idea how the real world works for real people. You are like a child. God damn.

EDIT: Sorry, Espy, I get that whole "civility" thing, but there's no point in even trying to have a discussion with this guy.

 

[blotsfan]

It is funny when people say government can't run healthcare yet you let them run your police force, fire department and army.

Yeah, because if you can do one thing, you can do everything. Hey! That plumber is able to fix a toilet! He should be able to to fix wiring problems too! :eyeroll:

 

[The Messiah]

Survival of the fittest. Fit meaning competence, intelligence, wisdom, strength, determination etc etc. Meaning you survive through your own abilities, succeed through your own hard work. You know, all that founding fathers bullshit that I keep spouting.

 

[Espy]

EDIT: Sorry, Espy, I get that whole "civility" thing, but there's no point in even trying to have a discussion with this guy.

Oh, go right ahead, I'm just making sure he knows that he's not going to win the argument by being disrespectful of Obama. If he or anyone else wants people to just tune you out... well go nuts. :uhhuh:

 

[The Messiah]

What catch phrases? You should be responsible? You should work hard to succeed? I think they call that being American. Is that a political party? The Americans? If so, I'm in.

Oh my god, you are a joke and you don't know what you're talking about, smurf.

Stop trying to hide behind silly labels and stick to debating the subject at hand.

You are telling me to start "debating." Amazing. Amazing.
[quote:vyra4k2g]I repeat: YOU HAVE TO PAY YOUR BILLS. That is how you ''fix'' healthcare, by paying the tab. Installment plan, savings account, insurance, the list goes on. I am not saying I have a magic solution as to HOW the bill gets paid, I am just saying taht it HAS to be paid, every time. Similar to shoplifting, those who don't pay make it more costly for those who do. See how simple that is? Now, just give it a rest with the political bullshit already, you are boring me to tears.

I understand all this. Yes, I get it. I agree that if people paid their bills, health care costs will go down. BUT IT IS NOT AS SIMPLE AS THAT. There are REASONS that the bills don't get paid. There are REASONS that health care is the biggest cause of bankruptcy. I have explained all of this. In order to fix health care, you have to fix THOSE issues. YOU DUMB smurf.

smurf it. You have no idea how the real world works for real people. You are like a child. God damn.

EDIT: Sorry, Espy, I get that whole "civility" thing, but there's no point in even trying to have a discussion with this guy.[/quote:vyra4k2g]

You are truly eloquent, sir. I concede to your mastery of the spoken word and the art of logical debate. Truly, I was beaten 'ere I even began.

 

[Fun Size]

Nothing to add to the debate, but I thought this was funny, so there:

 

[Iaculus]

Survival of the fittest. Fit meaning competence, intelligence, wisdom, strength, determination etc etc. Meaning you survive through your own abilities, succeed through your own hard work. You know, all that founding fathers bullshit that I keep spouting.

Check your definitions, man. It's a commonly-misinterpreted term.

This Wikipedia article gives a (surprisingly) balanced, clear explanation.

 

[Chazwozel]

Nothing to add to the debate, but I thought this was funny, so there:

 

[The Messiah]

Wikipedia? really?

Ok, even wikipedia indicates that there are multiple definitions, definitions that are used and discarded with the passage of time.

It is true that the phrase "survival of the fittest", in and by itself, is a tautology if fitness is defined by survival and reproduction. However, natural selection is not just survival of the fittest. Natural selection is the portion of variation in reproductive success, that is caused by heritable characters (see the article on natural selection).
If certain heritable characters increase or decrease the chances of survival and reproduction of their bearers, then it follows mechanically (by definition of "heritable") that those characters that improve survival and reproduction will increase in frequency over generations.

In other words, natural selection does not simply state that "survivors survive" or "reproducers reproduce"; rather, it states that "survivors survive, reproduce and therefore propagate any heritable characters which have affected their survival and reproductive success". This statement is not tautological: it hinges on the testable hypothesis that such fitness-impacting heritable variations actually exist (a hypothesis that has been amply confirmed.)

Critics of evolution have argued that "survival of the fittest" provides a justification for behaviour that undermines moral standards by letting the strong set standards of justice to the detriment of the weak.[13] However, any use of evolutionary descriptions to set moral standards would be a naturalistic fallacy (or more specifically the is-ought problem), as prescriptive moral statements cannot be derived from purely descriptive premises. Describing how things are does not imply that things ought to be that way. It is also simplistic to suggest that "survival of the fittest" implies treating the weak badly, as good social behaviour - cooperating with others and treating them well - improves evolutionary fitness


It has also been claimed that "the survival of the fittest" theory in biology was interpreted by late 19th century capitalists as "an ethical precept that sanctioned cut-throat economic competition" and led to "social Darwinism" which allegedly glorified laissez-faire economics, war and racism[16]. However these ideas predate and commonly contradict Darwin's ideas, and indeed their proponents rarely invoked Darwin in support, while commonly claiming justification from religion and Horatio Alger mythology. The term "social Darwinism" referring to capitalist ideologies was introduced as a term of abuse by Richard Hofstadter's Social Darwinism in American Thought published in 1944.[15][17]

Using the phrase "survival of the fittest" as a criticism of Darwin's theory of evolution is an example of the appeal to consequences fallacy: use of the concept of survival of the fittest as a justification for violence in human society has no effect on the truth of 'the theory of evolution by natural selection' in the natural biological world.

In the practice of mutual aid, which we can retrace to the earliest beginnings of evolution, we thus find the positive and undoubted origin of our ethical conceptions; and we can affirm that in the ethical progress of man, mutual support not mutual struggle – has had the leading part. In its wide extension, even at the present time, we also see the best guarantee of a still loftier evolution of our race.

 

[ElJuski]

You spend way too much time being angry and misguided on the internet. There's a world out there, go get um' tiger!

 

[Norris]

YOU HAVE TO PAY YOUR BILLS.

Indeed they do. However, as others have pointed out, these bills end up so ridiculously high that the person having them will either end up homeless and hungry to pay them off on time or laboring under medical debt for the rest of their natural life and possibly a generation or two after that. People don't get the preventative care they should (regular check-ups and the like) because they can't afford it. When it becomes a life or death crisis? They still can't afford it afford it but they seem oddly attached to living at that point so they go buck wild and get their life saved or their broken bone reset or that infection taken care of.

Reform is needed because the current system, which IS the free market at work, isn't working so hot. The health care industry is one of the few that doesn't actually work on the principles of supply and demand as most do because it is in many cases a literal life or death situation. When you are having a heart attack, or suffering from cancer, or your arm is broken, et al, you don't have time to price shop. You go to the nearest (or best for your condition) hospital and you take the treatment before you even THINK about how you're gonna pay. The suggestion you made, the $10 for 800 months idea (which was hyperbole, I know) comes out to 66.6 years worth of payments.

If this were a debate to create Universal Home Ownership or Universal Car Ownership or Universal Big Screen Television Ownership, I'd be right there with you saying that if people want something bigger and better they need to lift themselves up or save up or whatever. But this is life and death versus dollars and cents. And I always gotta go with the human life on this one.

 

[Bowielee]

Another thing to keep in mind. Medial bills aren't like credit card det, or defaulting on loans or mortgages.

When you get sick, you have NO OTHER OPTION than to see a doctor and they can charge you whatever the hell they want.

When I filed bankruptcy on my medical bills, it wasn't because I was irresponsible, or wanted to avoid paying it. I did absolutely NOTHING wrong that led to me having that debt.

You should not have to refinance your home so that you can stay alive. Messiah keeps going on about the founding fathers, but they also said that every American is entitled to LIFE, liberty, and the persuit of happines.

The current health care crisis is actually killing hard working americans who refuse to plunge their families into debt over something they can't control.

 

[Norris]

See? That's the point my 19 year old mind was trying to make. Just better.

And before any accusations of living off mommy and daddy are leveled, my father used to work in the insurance industry (currently...retired, I guess) and we currently have no health insurance. This doesn't stop us from getting regular dental check-ups and still paying them off.

 

[Chazwozel]

Another thing to keep in mind. Medial bills aren't like credit card det, or defaulting on loans or mortgages.

When you get sick, you have NO OTHER OPTION than to see a doctor and they can charge you whatever the * they want.

When I filed bankruptcy on my medical bills, it wasn't because I was irresponsible, or wanted to avoid paying it. I did absolutely NOTHING wrong that led to me having that debt.

You should not have to refinance your home so that you can stay alive. Messiah keeps going on about the founding fathers, but they also said that every American is entitled to LIFE, liberty, and the persuit of happines.

The current health care crisis is actually killing hard working americans who refuse to plunge their families into debt over something they can't control.

I generally ignore anyone who rants political issues using the founding fathers as the basis of the argument. Why the fuck do some people cling to the ideals of a bunch of slave-owning, rich, dead guys from the 18th century to solve 21st century problems? Those slave owning, rich, dead guys even had enough foresight that future issues are out of their league so they made their constitution amendable for posterity.

 

[The Messiah]

Rather than repeat myself ad nauseum, I would invite you to just, you know, READ the thread. So you can see that what you are saying now, the issues you are bringing up, have already been addressed.

Ask yourself this question. Why are medical bills high? Then ask yourself this question. How do we reduce the cost of medical treatment? Only then will you begin to have any chance of ever truly understanding the real cause of the problem with healthcare in America. When you understand the cause, you might be able to formulate some ideas as to a solution for the CAUSE, not the SYMPTOMS.

Your logic basically says ''bills are high, therefore I need help paying them.'' Instead, you should be saying ''bills are high, therefore we must find away to reduce those bills.''

Now, go forth and study amongst yourselves and don't come back in this thread until you have some kind of clue. Seriously.

 

[Chibibar]

The Messiah - I understand where you are coming from. Sure to solve a lot of medical bills is paying your debt.

But how did this debt come into play?

Here are some sample (some are related to each other)

low-income and even mid income self employed cannot afford medical insurance. Why? their entire income either pay utility bills, mortgage, car payment, food and probably clothing (cost varies per family) these are basic needs to really work in the "real world". you need running water to keep yourself clean, cook your food, and wash your clothes. Why? to keep your job, you can't be smelly and work (well you can but won't get very far) gotta eat to have energy to work and need transportation to get TO work (assuming some place don't have public transportation like McKinney we don't have DART so I need a car) a roof over your head so you don't get cold at night... given. Most of them just don't have much left to afford insurance on their own. (these are working people who are trying)

Why?
Premiums are high..... so in order to get insurance to keep it low and thus allow people to pay their bill, then we need lower premiums. A decent insurance (using mine as an example) from Blue Cross Blue Shield (BCBS) is around 350$ a month. that is a lot. my work pays for it (part of the benefits) but some private corporation they usually pay half and you pay the other half (which is 175$) that is a lot for some people. so no insurance for low income and mid self employed.

So..... people get sick. It happens to the best of us and even the fittest. sometimes we can tough it out and sometimes you have to go see a doctor. Currently hospital prices ARE high for emergency room. So lets say a person got shot at 2am, well only emergency room is open. you go and get treated. Doctors can't turn away people cause of their oath. Of course you (the general you) don't have insurance and gotten care and live now with a debt.

you don't make that much to begin with but have like a 20,000$ debt (easy) how you pay that off? even 10$ a month that is 166 years. A person don't live THAT long which mean the hospital will eat that debt (the person will die before debt is paid off) this is the problem. even if people DID pay their bill but not PAY OFF their bill before dying.... someone has to eat the cost... that is the problem.

These problem above compound upon each other. A single "solution" won't fix it. you have to fix the whole system...... I just don't have the solution to that.

 

[Chummer]

What makes me sad is that we are supposed to be the best country in the world with all this high morals etc yet we have no problem letting our poor die in the streets.

What I find even more crazy is we pay THREE TIMES the amount in healthcare that other countries do yet we die sooner, have more baby deaths, and our just plain in worse health.

It obvious the system we have doesnt work when all it does is make us poor and kill us off sooner than the other "civilized" nations.

Oh and another thing, I always find it funny how we are supposed to be this "God Chosen" nation and the Christians will lead the way etc, yet we value a system thats basicly "Atleast I got mine". Good Christian values there. Looks like many-a-people need to go back and read trhe New Testement cause Jesus was all about "giving until it hurts, then give some more." The best thing you can do is serve your fellow man.

 

[The Messiah]

Those slave owning, rich, dead guys even had enough foresight that future issues are out of their league so they made their constitution amendable for posterity.

Slavery was common throughout the world at the time, not just America. Wealth doesn't preclude wisdom. I don't have a response for the thing about them being dead. I guess that makes them a bunch of useless dipshits. Stupid people, giving up their lives for us so we could insult them hundreds of years later and belittle all that they accomplished and sacrificed for future generations. Don't worry, we will amend the fuck out of that constitution thing. When we get done with that rag you won't even recognize it.

 

[Chazwozel]

Those slave owning, rich, dead guys even had enough foresight that future issues are out of their league so they made their constitution amendable for posterity.

Slavery was common throughout the world at the time, not just America. Wealth doesn't preclude wisdom. I don't have a response for the thing about them being dead. I guess that makes them a bunch of useless dipshits. Stupid people, giving up their lives for us so we could insult them hundreds of years later and belittle all that they accomplished and sacrificed for future generations. Don't worry, we will amend the smurf out of that constitution thing. When we get done with that rag you won't even recognize it.

Actually slavery among the industrialized nations was all but abolish. No, it really wasn't the common thing to do anymore (unless you count colonialism as a form of slavery, to which it's really not).

Wealth doesn't preclude wisdom. So why do people so desperately cling to foundations set forth by Washington and Jefferson? They weren't exactly Socrates and Aristotle. They cling to them because rich people make the rules and run the world, just like today. It's not in rich America's best interest to have universal health care. They have the money and the means to make it so. That's my take in a nutshell.

 

[The Messiah]

The Messiah - I understand where you are coming from. Sure to solve a lot of medical bills is paying your debt.

But how did this debt come into play?

Here are some sample (some are related to each other)

low-income and even mid income self employed cannot afford medical insurance. Why? their entire income either pay utility bills, mortgage, car payment, food and probably clothing (cost varies per family) these are basic needs to really work in the "real world". you need running water to keep yourself clean, cook your food, and wash your clothes. Why? to keep your job, you can't be smelly and work (well you can but won't get very far) gotta eat to have energy to work and need transportation to get TO work (assuming some place don't have public transportation like McKinney we don't have DART so I need a car) a roof over your head so you don't get cold at night... given. Most of them just don't have much left to afford insurance on their own. (these are working people who are trying)

Why?
Premiums are high..... so in order to get insurance to keep it low and thus allow people to pay their bill, then we need lower premiums. A decent insurance (using mine as an example) from Blue Cross Blue Shield (BCBS) is around 350$ a month. that is a lot. my work pays for it (part of the benefits) but some private corporation they usually pay half and you pay the other half (which is 175$) that is a lot for some people. so no insurance for low income and mid self employed.

So..... people get sick. It happens to the best of us and even the fittest. sometimes we can tough it out and sometimes you have to go see a doctor. Currently hospital prices ARE high for emergency room. So lets say a person got shot at 2am, well only emergency room is open. you go and get treated. Doctors can't turn away people cause of their oath. Of course you (the general you) don't have insurance and gotten care and live now with a debt.

you don't make that much to begin with but have like a 20,000$ debt (easy) how you pay that off? even 10$ a month that is 166 years. A person don't live THAT long which mean the hospital will eat that debt (the person will die before debt is paid off) this is the problem. even if people DID pay their bill but not PAY OFF their bill before dying.... someone has to eat the cost... that is the problem.

These problem above compound upon each other. A single "solution" won't fix it. you have to fix the whole system...... I just don't have the solution to that.

Treat the cause, not the symptoms. Instead of asking for help to pay the high prices, wouldn't it be wiser to work towards bringing the prices down?