New healthcare bill isn't dreaded socialism

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Iaculus

Chazwozel said:
The Messiah said:
Chazwozel said:
Those slave owning, rich, dead guys even had enough foresight that future issues are out of their league so they made their constitution amendable for posterity.
Slavery was common throughout the world at the time, not just America. Wealth doesn't preclude wisdom. I don't have a response for the thing about them being dead. I guess that makes them a bunch of useless dipshits. Stupid people, giving up their lives for us so we could insult them hundreds of years later and belittle all that they accomplished and sacrificed for future generations. Don't worry, we will amend the smurf out of that constitution thing. When we get done with that rag you won't even recognize it.

Actually slavery among the industrialized nations was all but abolish. No, it really wasn't the common thing to do anymore (unless you count colonialism as a form of slavery, to which it's really not).

Wealth doesn't preclude wisdom. So why do people so desperately cling to foundations set forth by Washington and Jefferson? They weren't exactly Socrates and Aristotle. They cling to them because rich people make the rules and run the world, just like today. It's not in rich America's best interest to have universal health care. They have the money and the means to make it so. That's my take in a nutshell.
Actually, I'd place Jefferson around or above Aristotle - though, to be fair, I don't have a vast amount of respect for Aristotle. He had an opinion on a lot of things, sure, but that didn't make him right.

Oh, and did you actually read that quoted section, Messiah? I don't think it says what you think it says.
 
C

Chazwozel

What I meant by my quote was that a bunch of 18th century dead dudes couldn't possibly had the answers to our modern problems, so my question is: why does the right always cling and point to "what the founding father's intentions were" when it's all fruitless searching.

Issues like gun control and how this country's a land of free market are a result of following these ideals. America can't be a free market, capitalist nation if it intends to progress towards the future with other rising powers. It just can't.
 
Chazwozel said:
The Messiah said:
Chazwozel said:
Those slave owning, rich, dead guys even had enough foresight that future issues are out of their league so they made their constitution amendable for posterity.
Slavery was common throughout the world at the time, not just America. Wealth doesn't preclude wisdom. I don't have a response for the thing about them being dead. I guess that makes them a bunch of useless dipshits. Stupid people, giving up their lives for us so we could insult them hundreds of years later and belittle all that they accomplished and sacrificed for future generations. Don't worry, we will amend the smurf out of that constitution thing. When we get done with that rag you won't even recognize it.

Actually slavery among the industrialized nations was all but abolish. No, it really wasn't the common thing to do anymore (unless you count colonialism as a form of slavery, to which it's really not).

Wealth doesn't preclude wisdom. So why do people so desperately cling to foundations set forth by Washington and Jefferson? They weren't exactly Socrates and Aristotle. They cling to them because rich people make the rules and run the world, just like today. It's not in rich America's best interest to have universal health care. They have the money and the means to make it so. That's my take in a nutshell.
Shoulda paid attention in history class. Slavery was abolished in other industrialized nations? Riiight. What industrialized nations are you referring to? The ones that didn't exist before the 1800s? Agriculture was the thing back then, mostly because the entire world was doing everything it could to feed itself. Industrialization was, at that point, a rudimentary and poorly implemented concept, consisting mostly of textile mills and the like. And where do you suppose we got all our slaves from? Oh, right. We bought them. From other countries. On the open market. Because everybody on Earth (including the legendary East India Trading Company) was involved in the buying, selling and transportation of slaves, indentured servants and the rest of the thinly disguised human cargo, at great profit.

Of course, all of this information pales beside your depiction of Jefferson and Washington being ''not Aristotle.'' Let's exclude Frankiln and Adams for a moment and just focus on Washington. Hmmm, one of the greatest strategists and military leaders to ever walk the Earth. The guy that almost single handedly lead a fledgling nation to victory over one of the greatest military powers of all time? THAT is the guy you don't think measures up to dead philosophers? I hesitate to point this out, but you are clearly, clearly lacking in any primary understanding of the nation's history. Back to class with you, young man and we may have to notify your parents of your inability to pay attention in class.

-- Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:03 pm --

Iaculus said:
Oh, and did you actually read that quoted section, Messiah? I don't think it says what you think it says.
It says exactly what I think it says. That the definition of natural selection, survival of the fittest and even the conceptual meaning of darwinism has been open to interpretation for quite some time. My interpretation means self reliance and personal responsibilty. Apparently, this is the same views that the right wing has as well. Funny how they never seem to support or abide by that mantra, as George W Bush increased the size of government tremendously while in office, as well as giving the federal government sweeping powers over the nation. I would have to call that guy more socialist than many socialists.

-- Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:04 pm --

Issues like gun control and how this country's a land of free market are a result of following these ideals. America can't be a free market, capitalist nation if it intends to progress towards the future with other rising powers. It just can't.
Why do you talk?
 
C

Chibibar

The Messiah said:
Treat the cause, not the symptoms. Instead of asking for help to pay the high prices, wouldn't it be wiser to work towards bringing the prices down?
Right.. so change the system?

So.... let see if we can get back to the basic.

Why medical cost so high? unpaid medical services (debt) thus insurance is high, thus poor people can't afford premium..... so lets reverse this

How can we get medical payment low - paying debt thus insurance will be low thus poor people can afford it.
But..... how do we handle the CURRENT medical debt already in place? there is debt cause people can't pay it. That is our #1 problem so far.

Ok. now... if we can somehow scrap the whole system and start fresh what "should happen"

1. medical insurance for everyone? how? low premium and good service? That would be a good provider but at the same time being capitalist, there has to be competition. Sole medical plan could work too but then we are talking socialist.

2. Now we need to set policies to PREVENT or at least lessen the chance of medical doctor of being sue? (protection perhaps?) that is another reason for high medical bills (hospital charges)

3. Policy of prevent medical charges charging through the roof? I notice that when I had a minor attack (I stop breathing) I went to the emergency room cause well.. I stop breathing. I got the bill. EVERY SINGLE person saw me (including each nurse) put a charge on it. Even the doctor who didn't even touch me just ask me question, look at my chart charge 2000$ for it. luckily I had medical insurance so my cost was like 500$ That is something that may take YEARS to figure out and fix.

4. Government.......... well.. we can only change every 2,4,6 years (2 years for House rep election, 4 years president election, and 6 years for Senate election) so that will take a bit of time and people need to vote the right people into office of course this would be the right people would want to RUN for office. The two party system pretty much lock out anyone other party to actually win a presidency (generally a republican or democrat) How much government involvement? what are the laws? how is it passed? government regs and laws takes MONTHS if not YEARS to get around to fixing. At the same time, they are doing something else also...... so... overthrow the government? not anytime soon.

Ok.. lets talk about the flip side.

Why people are poor?
Lack of Job? - What is the job market. Right now..... pretty sucky. As many have stated we are around 10% of unemployment. Well, if you are unemployed, you don't make any money, no money = no medical insurance :( cause any money you DO get (unemployment check) would go into the basic = food, utility, house, and transportation. How do we fix that? I don't know. If you have the answer, America can use it.

Lack of education? - well... this is an age old battle that I'm pretty familiar with. It is sad that a GREAT teacher get paid so little compare to a GREAT sport player. Yea it is not fair. A sports player is just an entertainment value, while a great teacher can help shape and mold MANY people in the future.... where is the justice in that? so... back to the point. Education is getting paid less and less by the government taxes (I use Texas as an example) Majority of the School fund COMES from property taxes (at least in Dallas for sure not sure of other counties) Even community college, majority of the money comes from tuition and some from government (we are community college) so school can only pay what they can afford and hope they can compete. BUT even with community college, it cost money. There are program to help pay for education but a lot of red tapes to get help and fundings (it is not easy that is for sure)

Motivation for education - well........ again an old battle. Some parents in America thinks that their kids don't need skool (that is intentional) cause "they are gud enough" that can be a problem.... how we fix that? mandatory education?

Quality - I hate "no child left behind" law cause there is no money to help improve. All it does is shuffle "poor/difficult" student to other program. I talk with many teacher on this and most they agree. It is not a good solution. It is hard to get equipment, books, supplies or anything for school. Private school have better funding and thus can get quality teacher but you know how much private school cost.

There is a whole bunch of other system that participate to the problem as a whole, these are just some examples....... how are we going to fix this? it will not get fix in a year.... 10 years MAYBE consider how slow things work. (if we are lucky)
 
C

Chazwozel

Nice try Gas Bandit Jr.

I minored in history in college, and the trade of slaves in Europe was abolished by the 16th century (England in the 12th!) I think Russia abolished it in the 17th.

Like I said, established industrialized nations had abolished slavery well before the U.S. had old Abe proclaiming his famous emancipation speech. Considering that the U.S. was an English colony, it wasn't really the norm for "civilized" Englishmen to own slaves.

I think you have English colonialism mixed up with slavery.

And of course there were pockets of slavery existing within Africa, India, and New Zealand.
 
C

Chibibar

Chazwozel said:
I minored in history in college, and the trade of slaves in Europe was abolished by the 16th century (England in the 12th!) I think Russia abolished it in the 17th.

Like I said, established industrialized nations had abolished slavery well before the U.S. had old Abe proclaiming his famous emancipation speech. Considering that the U.S. was an English colony, it wasn't really the norm for "civilized" Englishmen to own slaves.

I think you have English colonialism mixed up with slavery.

And of course there were pockets of slavery existing within Africa, India, and New Zealand.
There be no slaves in China ;) there be indentured servants.... yea...
 
C

Chazwozel

North_Ranger said:
Sooo... the Messiah can read the minds of dead late-18th century politicians and philosophers?

Me thinks Messah, is a freshman college student who just finished up poli sci 101

-- Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:12 pm --

Chibibar said:
Chazwozel said:
I minored in history in college, and the trade of slaves in Europe was abolished by the 16th century (England in the 12th!) I think Russia abolished it in the 17th.

Like I said, established industrialized nations had abolished slavery well before the U.S. had old Abe proclaiming his famous emancipation speech. Considering that the U.S. was an English colony, it wasn't really the norm for "civilized" Englishmen to own slaves.

I think you have English colonialism mixed up with slavery.

And of course there were pockets of slavery existing within Africa, India, and New Zealand.
There be no slaves in China ;) there be indentured servants.... yea...

Well an indentured servant system varies from region to region. It can't be generalized.

Edit* East India Company never directly traded slaves. They did profit from the results of the slave trade.
 
C

Chibibar

Chazwozel said:
Well an indentured servant system varies from region to region. It can't be generalized.
Yea.. some people claim it is near slavery.

Sweat shop in China is one of the major "tag line" (did I use that correctly?) but I guess the pure definition of slavery is work for free and someone owns you right?
these sweat shop you still pay people, just very very low wages.
 
C

crono1224

The messiah tries so hard but is clear that most of what he spouts are solutions before the problem, yes if people paid their bills the bill itself wouldn't be so high, but its too late it already is high and well beyond certain people means. I don't even think he cares anymore about real world, all the problems that exist are because of liberal government, unchecked free market was somehow corrupted by liberals. And mister Washington and Jefferson can handle all these things cause back in the day is completely relevant to now.

Blots, I didn't say just cause they can run one thing they can run all, it's more people are like WAAA they failed our mail system the government is incomptent, but lets let thim guard our lives, and put out fires.
 
C

Chazwozel

crono1224 said:
The messiah tries so hard but is clear that most of what he spouts are solutions before the problem, yes if people paid their bills the bill itself wouldn't be so high, but its too late it already is high and well beyond certain people means. I don't even think he cares anymore about real world, all the problems that exist are because of liberal government, unchecked free market was somehow corrupted by liberals. And mister Washington and Jefferson can handle all these things cause back in the day is completely relevant to now.

Blots, I didn't say just cause they can run one thing they can run all, it's more people are like WAAA they failed our mail system the government is incomptent, but lets let thim guard our lives, and put out fires.

I used to have the solutions to the worlds problems, similar to rants like Messiah preaches. But then I my high wore off, and I ran out of weed. Isn't freshman year of college grand? :smug:

Of course, all of this information pales beside your depiction of Jefferson and Washington being ''not Aristotle.'' Let's exclude Frankiln and Adams for a moment and just focus on Washington. Hmmm, one of the greatest strategists and military leaders to ever walk the Earth. The guy that almost single handedly lead a fledgling nation to victory over one of the greatest military powers of all time? THAT is the guy you don't think measures up to dead philosophers? I hesitate to point this out, but you are clearly, clearly lacking in any primary understanding of the nation's history. Back to class with you, young man and we may have to notify your parents of your inability to pay attention in
I missed this gem.

:rofl: :rofl:

How in the hell does Washington's military strategical knowledge of 18th warfare help us exactly? No, seriously, how would an old dead general have the foresight to tackle heath care reform issues. Take a lesson from ol' George. You know why he was able to bring down the greatest military power of all time? He enforced guerrilla tactic warfare instead of the traditional two armies meeting in a field and shooting till one says stop. He took radical, modern ideas and used them to his advantage instead of clinging to old traditions. Our problems are not going to be solved by reading Ben Franklin's diary or finding some hidden text from Tom Jefferson.
 
C

crono1224

Chazwozel said:
crono1224 said:
The messiah tries so hard but is clear that most of what he spouts are solutions before the problem, yes if people paid their bills the bill itself wouldn't be so high, but its too late it already is high and well beyond certain people means. I don't even think he cares anymore about real world, all the problems that exist are because of liberal government, unchecked free market was somehow corrupted by liberals. And mister Washington and Jefferson can handle all these things cause back in the day is completely relevant to now.

Blots, I didn't say just cause they can run one thing they can run all, it's more people are like WAAA they failed our mail system the government is incomptent, but lets let thim guard our lives, and put out fires.

I used to have the solutions to the worlds problems, similar to rants like Messiah preaches. But then I my high wore off, and I ran out of weed. Isn't freshman year of college grand? :smug:
But but, its the fault of the people not of the policy/philosophy.
 
first year college makes you super liberal as fuck, chaz, has it been so long since you were a freshman? :whistling:

He probably listened to Rush Limbaugh or Glenn Beck for a few hours. Or maybe read his dad's copy of the American Spectator
 
Oh man, you totally got me. You are so right. Yep. No slavery after the 17th century. Mmm-hmmm. Yeah, they had a law that said not to. Yep. Ok then. That just put an end to that slavery shit didn't it? I guess that's why we don't have slavery in the modern day either? Nope, no slaves then, no slaves now, you are correct. And Washington, yeah, he wasn't all that. Moreover, he can't travel through time to tell us how to fix things. Yes, so true. What was I thinking? Until we get time traveling anti-slavery Washington to help us we are fucked. And we damn sure don't want to even attempt to get anyone to try to actually pay for their own healthcare. Truly, that would be the height of foolishness. The debt is too high, it is just too late to make any attempt at all at this point. Why throw good money after bad?

Let me ask you this. You don't want to pay to fix the problem. You don't want to even consider any type of personal individual responsibility for the problem. You don't seem to think that doctors, nurses and radiologists need to earn a living.

WHO do you think is going to treat you when they know that they aren't going to get paid? What is YOUR solution to healthcare professionals walking off the job because of a collapsing infrastructure? What is your solution to hospitals that are closing their doors because they can no longer afford to treat patients? How will you deal with skyrocketing medical costs caused by so many people not paying their medical bills?

If I am so wrong, then how is it that YOU are so right? What EXACTLY is your plan to fix healthcare in the United States while simultaneously allowing a significant portion of the population to not to have to pay for that same healthcare?

I already know your answer. Go ahead and say it. Show everyone how predictable you really are.
 

Cajungal

Staff member
I'm curious to know what you think we should do in the meantime--before prices are lowered (what you said needs to happen, right? And I don't disagree), how should we deal with the people who, as you've pointed out, need to take responsibility for their bills? (edit--bills they accumulated due to an illness and that they are attempting to take care of but cannot)
 
The Messiah said:
Oh man, you totally got me. You are so right. Yep. No slavery after the 17th century. Mmm-hmmm. Yeah, they had a law that said not to. Yep. Ok then. That just put an end to that slavery poop didn't it? I guess that's why we don't have slavery in the modern day either? Nope, no slaves then, no slaves now, you are correct. And Washington, yeah, he wasn't all that. Moreover, he can't travel through time to tell us how to fix things. Yes, so true. What was I thinking? Until we get time traveling anti-slavery Washington to help us we are smurfed. And we damn sure don't want to even attempt to get anyone to try to actually pay for their own healthcare. Truly, that would be the height of foolishness. The debt is too high, it is just too late to make any attempt at all at this point. Why throw good money after bad?

Let me ask you this. You don't want to pay to fix the problem. You don't want to even consider any type of personal individual responsibility for the problem. You don't seem to think that doctors, nurses and radiologists need to earn a living.

WHO do you think is going to treat you when they know that they aren't going to get paid? What is YOUR solution to healthcare professionals walking off the job because of a collapsing infrastructure? What is your solution to hospitals that are closing their doors because they can no longer afford to treat patients? How will you deal with skyrocketing medical costs caused by so many people not paying their medical bills?

If I am so wrong, then how is it that YOU are so right? What EXACTLY is your plan to fix healthcare in the United States while simultaneously allowing a significant portion of the population to not to have to pay for that same healthcare?

I already know your answer. Go ahead and say it. Show everyone how predictable you really are.

If you think doctors and nurses don't get paid in countries that have universal health care, you really are nieve.
 
Cajungal said:
I'm curious to know what you think we should do in the meantime--before prices are lowered (what you said needs to happen, right? And I don't disagree), how should we deal with the people who, as you've pointed out, need to take responsibility for their bills?
As Steven Tyler would say: Chip away at the stone. You can't stop paying your bills just because they are overwhelming. I have medical bills outstanding (because I'm a hypocrite) that I could have paid off a long time ago, I just haven't. But in the case of an auto accident I had about 15 years ago while uninsured, state law required me to pay it off, so I did. At $50 a month, which was all I could afford. I paid one bill but not the other. Why? Because I had to. It was the law.

Sure, there are people that are just completely unable to pay even $10 a month and that is to be expected. This is a very similar situation to taxes. Sometimes it is hard to pay, but almost everyone does. Those few who don't get harassed and sometimes even jailed, but for the most part, if you can't, then you can't. You pay what you can and eventually, you whittle it down to something reasonable. Nobody is asking for immediate payment of your open heart surgery bill, but you do need to throw them a few bucks on a regular basis, just to keep things going smoothly for all parties concerned.

Of course, this is overlooking some things, such as illegal aliens (a big problem), people who refuse to pay their bills, people who can afford to go to the doctor but don't until the problem reaches epic proportions and so on. As with any problem, there are multiple solutions that all need to be implemented simultaneously. Obviously, caring for the elderly needs to be addressed as well. The real world is not black and white, conservative and liberal, my way or the highway. The real world requires flexibility and logical solutions that not only make sense on paper, but that actually work in real life.

Cowering in the corner and saying ''NUH UH! NUH UH! NUH UH!'' isn't helping anyone and neither is letting retarded politicians decide for us. Politicians are only good at one thing; Lying in order to maintain their power and following their party blindly. Never, ever, ever trust politicians.

-- Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:21 pm --

Bowielee said:
The Messiah said:
Oh man, you totally got me. You are so right. Yep. No slavery after the 17th century. Mmm-hmmm. Yeah, they had a law that said not to. Yep. Ok then. That just put an end to that slavery poop didn't it? I guess that's why we don't have slavery in the modern day either? Nope, no slaves then, no slaves now, you are correct. And Washington, yeah, he wasn't all that. Moreover, he can't travel through time to tell us how to fix things. Yes, so true. What was I thinking? Until we get time traveling anti-slavery Washington to help us we are smurfed. And we damn sure don't want to even attempt to get anyone to try to actually pay for their own healthcare. Truly, that would be the height of foolishness. The debt is too high, it is just too late to make any attempt at all at this point. Why throw good money after bad?

Let me ask you this. You don't want to pay to fix the problem. You don't want to even consider any type of personal individual responsibility for the problem. You don't seem to think that doctors, nurses and radiologists need to earn a living.

WHO do you think is going to treat you when they know that they aren't going to get paid? What is YOUR solution to healthcare professionals walking off the job because of a collapsing infrastructure? What is your solution to hospitals that are closing their doors because they can no longer afford to treat patients? How will you deal with skyrocketing medical costs caused by so many people not paying their medical bills?

If I am so wrong, then how is it that YOU are so right? What EXACTLY is your plan to fix healthcare in the United States while simultaneously allowing a significant portion of the population to not to have to pay for that same healthcare?

I already know your answer. Go ahead and say it. Show everyone how predictable you really are.

If you think doctors and nurses don't get paid in countries that have universal health care, you really are nieve.
Yeah you got me. That is exactly what I said. Totally. Exactly.

So your solution to the problem is that I'm naive?
 
P

Papillon

The Messiah said:
Oh man, you totally got me. You are so right. Yep. No slavery after the 17th century. Mmm-hmmm. Yeah, they had a law that said not to. Yep. Ok then. That just put an end to that slavery shit didn't it?[citation needed] I guess that's why we don't have slavery in the modern day either? Nope, no slaves then, no slaves now, you are correct. And Washington, yeah, he wasn't all that. Moreover, he can't travel through time to tell us how to fix things. Yes, so true. What was I thinking? Until we get time traveling anti-slavery Washington to help us we are fucked. And we damn sure don't want to even attempt to get anyone to try to actually pay for their own healthcare. Truly, that would be the height of foolishness. The debt is too high, it is just too late to make any attempt at all at this point. Why throw good money after bad?

Let me ask you this. You don't want to pay to fix the problem. You don't want to even consider any type of personal individual responsibility for the problem. You don't seem to think that doctors, nurses and radiologists need to earn a living.[citation needed]

WHO do you think is going to treat you when they know that they aren't going to get paid[citation needed]? What is YOUR solution to healthcare professionals walking off the job[citation needed] because of a collapsing infrastructure? What is your solution to hospitals that are closing their doors[citation needed] because they can no longer afford to treat patients? How will you deal with skyrocketing medical costs caused by so many people not paying their medical bills[citation needed]?

If I am so wrong, then how is it that YOU are so right? What EXACTLY is your plan to fix healthcare in the United States while simultaneously allowing a significant portion of the population to not to have to pay[citation needed] for that same healthcare?

I already know your answer. Go ahead and say it. Show everyone how predictable you really are.
 
C

Chazwozel

The Messiah said:
Oh man, you totally got me. You are so right. Yep. No slavery after the 17th century. Mmm-hmmm. Yeah, they had a law that said not to. Yep. Ok then. That just put an end to that slavery poop didn't it? I guess that's why we don't have slavery in the modern day either? Nope, no slaves then, no slaves now, you are correct. And Washington, yeah, he wasn't all that. Moreover, he can't travel through time to tell us how to fix things. Yes, so true. What was I thinking? Until we get time traveling anti-slavery Washington to help us we are smurfed. And we damn sure don't want to even attempt to get anyone to try to actually pay for their own healthcare. Truly, that would be the height of foolishness. The debt is too high, it is just too late to make any attempt at all at this point. Why throw good money after bad?

Let me ask you this. You don't want to pay to fix the problem. You don't want to even consider any type of personal individual responsibility for the problem. You don't seem to think that doctors, nurses and radiologists need to earn a living.

WHO do you think is going to treat you when they know that they aren't going to get paid? What is YOUR solution to healthcare professionals walking off the job because of a collapsing infrastructure? What is your solution to hospitals that are closing their doors because they can no longer afford to treat patients? How will you deal with skyrocketing medical costs caused by so many people not paying their medical bills?

If I am so wrong, then how is it that YOU are so right? What EXACTLY is your plan to fix healthcare in the United States while simultaneously allowing a significant portion of the population to not to have to pay for that same healthcare?


I already know your answer. Go ahead and say it. Show everyone how predictable you really are.
a. I would gladly put up with a 50% tax increase for national health care as long as other tax brackets for other individuals were also taxed. How's that for personal responsibility? And Second, junior, some of my closest colleagues and friends are doctors and nurses, they deserve every penny they get. My biggest pet peeve with you is that you seem to believe all these 'facts' you pull out of your ass.

b. I don't have a reform plan. No one does. If I fucking had one, I'd be a billionaire, you fucking moron.

Here's a nickels worth of advice. Finish up college, live on your own for a few years, and then get back to me about the problems conflicting the United States and how to solve them. It's not a matter of right and wrong, it's a matter of you spouting half-baked ideas as fact and truth and not having the intelligence to take others' arguments and comprehend them. You have a vivid imagination, but the reality is there is never a right and wrong when it comes to these sorts of issues. Black and white thinking is the hallmark of talking to an ignoramus, which is why I'm hardly putting any effort towards convincing you of how dumb you really sound.

-- Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:31 pm --

Papillon said:
The Messiah said:
Oh man, you totally got me. You are so right. Yep. No slavery after the 17th century. Mmm-hmmm. Yeah, they had a law that said not to. Yep. Ok then. That just put an end to that slavery poop didn't it?[citation needed] I guess that's why we don't have slavery in the modern day either? Nope, no slaves then, no slaves now, you are correct. And Washington, yeah, he wasn't all that. Moreover, he can't travel through time to tell us how to fix things. Yes, so true. What was I thinking? Until we get time traveling anti-slavery Washington to help us we are smurfed. And we damn sure don't want to even attempt to get anyone to try to actually pay for their own healthcare. Truly, that would be the height of foolishness. The debt is too high, it is just too late to make any attempt at all at this point. Why throw good money after bad?

Let me ask you this. You don't want to pay to fix the problem. You don't want to even consider any type of personal individual responsibility for the problem. You don't seem to think that doctors, nurses and radiologists need to earn a living.[citation needed]

WHO do you think is going to treat you when they know that they aren't going to get paid[citation needed]? What is YOUR solution to healthcare professionals walking off the job[citation needed] because of a collapsing infrastructure? What is your solution to hospitals that are closing their doors[citation needed] because they can no longer afford to treat patients? How will you deal with skyrocketing medical costs caused by so many people not paying their medical bills[citation needed]?

If I am so wrong, then how is it that YOU are so right? What EXACTLY is your plan to fix healthcare in the United States while simultaneously allowing a significant portion of the population to not to have to pay[citation needed] for that same healthcare?

I already know your answer. Go ahead and say it. Show everyone how predictable you really are.
Thanks, this is another thing that junior here needs to learn. If you're going to pull facts out of your ass, you need to reference them. We wouldn't want you getting booted out of college for plagiarizing your masterpiece political science term papers, would we?
 
Here is CNN/Fortune mag (not exactly bastion's of far right crazy mind you) with an article on what you would LOSE under Obamacare:
By Shawn Tully, editor at large
July 24, 2009: 10:17 AM ET
NEW YORK (Fortune) -- In promoting his health-care agenda, President Obama has repeatedly reassured Americans that they can keep their existing health plans -- and that the benefits and access they prize will be enhanced through reform.

A close reading of the two main bills, one backed by Democrats in the House and the other issued by Sen. Edward Kennedy's Health committee, contradict the President's assurances. To be sure, it isn't easy to comb through their 2,000 pages of tortured legal language. But page by page, the bills reveal a web of restrictions, fines, and mandates that would radically change your health-care coverage.

If you prize choosing your own cardiologist or urologist under your company's Preferred Provider Organization plan (PPO), if your employer rewards your non-smoking, healthy lifestyle with reduced premiums, if you love the bargain Health Savings Account (HSA) that insures you just for the essentials, or if you simply take comfort in the freedom to spend your own money for a policy that covers the newest drugs and diagnostic tests -- you may be shocked to learn that you could lose all of those good things under the rules proposed in the two bills that herald a health-care revolution.

In short, the Obama platform would mandate extremely full, expensive, and highly subsidized coverage -- including a lot of benefits people would never pay for with their own money -- but deliver it through a highly restrictive, HMO-style plan that will determine what care and tests you can and can't have.

Let's explore the five freedoms that Americans would lose under Obamacare:

1. Freedom to choose what's in your plan
The bills in both houses require that Americans purchase insurance through "qualified" plans offered by health-care "exchanges" that would be set up in each state. The rub is that the plans can't really compete based on what they offer. The reason: The federal government will impose a minimum list of benefits that each plan is required to offer.
The Senate bill would require coverage for prescription drugs, mental-health benefits, and substance-abuse services. It also requires policies to insure "children" until the age of 26. That's just the starting list. The bills would allow the Department of Health and Human Services to add to the list of required benefits, based on recommendations from a committee of experts. Americans, therefore, wouldn't even know what's in their plans and what they're required to pay for, directly or indirectly, until after the bills become law.

2. Freedom to be rewarded for healthy living, or pay your real costs
As with the previous example, the Obama plan enshrines into federal law one of the worst features of state legislation: community rating. Eleven states, ranging from New York to Oregon, have some form of community rating. In its purest form, community rating requires that all patients pay the same rates for their level of coverage regardless of their age or medical condition.

Americans with pre-existing conditions need subsidies under any plan, but community rating is a dubious way to bring fairness to health care. The reason is twofold: First, it forces young people, who typically have lower incomes than older workers, to pay far more than their actual cost, and gives older workers, who can afford to pay more, a big discount. The state laws gouging the young are a major reason so many of them have joined the ranks of uninsured.

Under the Senate plan, insurers would be barred from charging any more than twice as much for one patient vs. any other patient with the same coverage. So if a 20-year-old who costs just $800 a year to insure is forced to pay $2,500, a 62-year-old who costs $7,500 would pay no more than $5,000.

Second, the bills would ban insurers from charging differing premiums based on the health of their customers. Again, that's understandable for folks with diabetes or cancer. But the bills would bar rewarding people who pursue a healthy lifestyle of exercise or a cholesterol-conscious diet. That's hardly a formula for lower costs. It's as if car insurers had to charge the same rates to safe drivers as to chronic speeders with a history of accidents.

3. Freedom to choose high-deductible coverage

The bills threaten to eliminate the one part of the market truly driven by consumers spending their own money. That's what makes a market, and health care needs more of it, not less.

Hundreds of companies now offer Health Savings Accounts to about 5 million employees. Those workers deposit tax-free money in the accounts and get a matching contribution from their employer. They can use the funds to buy a high-deductible plan -- say for major medical costs over $12,000. Preventive care is reimbursed, but patients pay all other routine doctor visits and tests with their own money from the HSA account. As a result, HSA users are far more cost-conscious than customers who are reimbursed for the majority of their care.

The bills seriously endanger the trend toward consumer-driven care in general. By requiring minimum packages, they would prevent patients from choosing stripped-down plans that cover only major medical expenses. "The government could set extremely low deductibles that would eliminate HSAs," says John Goodman of the National Center for Policy Analysis, a free-market research group. "And they could do it after the bills are passed."

4. Freedom to keep your existing plan

This is the freedom that the President keeps emphasizing. Yet the bills appear to say otherwise. It's worth diving into the weeds -- the territory where most pundits and politicians don't seem to have ventured.

The legislation divides the insured into two main groups, and those two groups are treated differently with respect to their current plans. The first are employees covered by the Employee Retirement Security Act of 1974. ERISA regulates companies that are self-insured, meaning they pay claims out of their cash flow, and don't have real insurance. Those are the GEs (GE, Fortune 500) and Time Warners (TWX, Fortune 500) and most other big companies.

The House bill states that employees covered by ERISA plans are "grandfathered." Under ERISA, the plans can do pretty much what they want -- they're exempt from standard packages and community rating and can reward employees for healthy lifestyles even in restrictive states.

But read on.

The bill gives ERISA employers a five-year grace period when they can keep offering plans free from the restrictions of the "qualified" policies offered on the exchanges. But after five years, they would have to offer only approved plans, with the myriad rules we've already discussed. So for Americans in large corporations, "keeping your own plan" has a strict deadline. In five years, like it or not, you'll get dumped into the exchange. As we'll see, it could happen a lot earlier.

The outlook is worse for the second group. It encompasses employees who aren't under ERISA but get actual insurance either on their own or through small businesses. After the legislation passes, all insurers that offer a wide range of plans to these employees will be forced to offer only "qualified" plans to new customers, via the exchanges.

The employees who got their coverage before the law goes into effect can keep their plans, but once again, there's a catch. If the plan changes in any way -- by altering co-pays, deductibles, or even switching coverage for this or that drug -- the employee must drop out and shop through the exchange. Since these plans generally change their policies every year, it's likely that millions of employees will lose their plans in 12 months.

5. Freedom to choose your doctors

The Senate bill requires that Americans buying through the exchanges -- and as we've seen, that will soon be most Americans -- must get their care through something called "medical home." Medical home is similar to an HMO. You're assigned a primary care doctor, and the doctor controls your access to specialists. The primary care physicians will decide which services, like MRIs and other diagnostic scans, are best for you, and will decide when you really need to see a cardiologists or orthopedists.

Under the proposals, the gatekeepers would theoretically guide patients to tests and treatments that have proved most cost-effective. The danger is that doctors will be financially rewarded for denying care, as were HMO physicians more than a decade ago. It was consumer outrage over despotic gatekeepers that made the HMOs so unpopular, and killed what was billed as the solution to America's health-care cost explosion.

The bills do not specifically rule out fee-for-service plans as options to be offered through the exchanges. But remember, those plans -- if they exist -- would be barred from charging sick or elderly patients more than young and healthy ones. So patients would be inclined to game the system, staying in the HMO while they're healthy and switching to fee-for-service when they become seriously ill. "That would kill fee-for-service in a hurry," says Goodman.

In reality, the flexible, employer-based plans that now dominate the landscape, and that Americans so cherish, could disappear far faster than the 5 year "grace period" that's barely being discussed.

Companies would have the option of paying an 8% payroll tax into a fund that pays for coverage for Americans who aren't covered by their employers. It won't happen right away -- large companies must wait a couple of years before they opt out. But it will happen, since it's likely that the tax will rise a lot more slowly than corporate health-care costs, especially since they'll be lobbying Washington to keep the tax under control in the righteous name of job creation.

The best solution is to move to a let-freedom-ring regime of high deductibles, no community rating, no standard benefits, and cross-state shopping for bargains (another market-based reform that's strictly taboo in the bills). I'll propose my own solution in another piece soon on Fortune.com. For now, we suffer with a flawed health-care system, but we still have our Five Freedoms.
 
i am helping to save the future generations of this nation from runaway prosperity and proper health care. As your duly elected savior, I feel I can do no less. To pay for all the new programs, please fill out the new improved income tax form included below.

------------------Revised Federal Income Tax Form 2009-2010------------------------

1. Enter the amount earned in the last fiscal year _______

2. Enter all other other assets you may have, such as savings or CDs_______

3. Add the amounts from line one and line two________

Send in the amount from line three, minus the cost of one stamp.
 
Cog said:
But what system is going to leave less people without medical care?
Thats a poor question because it has as a premise that any system that covers more people is automatically better. Asking "which system will cover more people better" is I think a better question.
Remember, I'm not saying we don't need reform. Just that we might not need THIS version of reform. Why settle for McDonalds when you know a few miles down the road is a good burger joint?
 
Espy said:
Cog said:
But what system is going to leave less people without medical care?
Thats a poor question because it has as a premise that any system that covers more people is automatically better. Asking "which system will cover more people better" is I think a better question.
Remember, I'm not saying we don't need reform. Just that we might not need THIS version of reform. Why settle for McDonalds when you know a few miles down the road is a good burger joint?
Aren't you a little too.... calm... to post here? Try frothing at the mouth a little or something.
 
Espy said:
Cog said:
But what system is going to leave less people without medical care?
Thats a poor question because it has as a premise that any system that covers more people is automatically better. Asking "which system will cover more people better" is I think a better question.
Remember, I'm not saying we don't need reform. Just that we might not need THIS version of reform. Why settle for McDonalds when you know a few miles down the road is a good burger joint?
That was the question I had in my mind but the language is my enemy sometimes. It seem to me that everytime someone presents a posible solution, many only see what it's wrong with it instead to see if this new solutions works better. Only better, it don't have to be perfect.
 
M

Mr_Chaz

Cog said:
Only better, it don't have to be perfect.
Cha ching! We have a winner. Everyone always finds the flaws in the plan, well guess what, it's never going to be perfect. Get over it, and instead find the best available solution. The question is, how do you define best?

For me it would be that people can get healthcare when they need it, without jeopardising their financial stability. If that's through an insurance scheme that everyone can afford? Fine by me. Through taxes? That's fine too. Whatever works. They key is that everyone has the ability to pay without sacrificing other necessities.

I'll use the same example I used earlier. Someone earns $24 000 a year and has an emergency appendectomy. Their bills? 100% of their salary. Someone else earns $100 000, their bills? 24% of their salary. But notice the difference here Mr Messiah...Neither of them have any choice but to have the surgery, it's an emergency. This is not the same as what house to buy/rent, or what TV to buy, because in those cases there are a range of products, of different prices, that you can choose which one you want. Emergency medical treatment is not the same.

So, what can we do about it? You want to ask how we can get the bills down, and you suggest that if everyone pays, the bills will go down. I have 2 issues with that.
a) You still haven't addressed the fact that some people can't pay. How can the person in the example above pay 100% of his salary to pay his medical bills? Not going to happen. You suggest he pays a nominal amount to show his willingness, your example being $10 a months, or whatever he can afford, leaving him paying his bills for 200 years. Now obviously that's not possible, so the insurance company still don't get the bill paid, and hence the costs are still high.

b) If you're one of these capitalist insurance companies you love so much, and people somehow start to pay their bills, and your costs go down, do you lower your prices? Abuse that inelastic demand and keep your prices high, why not? So under your system prices still wouldn't go down, and so all the struggle people have gone through to pay off debts in order to reduce their costs...is for nothing! The insurance companies WILL NOT reduce prices just because debts are lower, why on Earth would they if they're already making money? All that would do would reduce their profits, as if! So people still can't afford their healthcare, aah the wonders of a true free market. Sucks to be poor.


So
My suggestion? You're gonna love this one. Universal government provided healthcare. As seen in most of Europe among others. Why? Because everyone gets healthcare. Those who can afford to pay, and subsidise it for others. But oh no, why should I be paying for that poor person to be treated? Well that poor person works. They make your clothes, they empty your bins, they feed you in your favourite restaurant, they keep your sewers working, they pay every single cent of their income back into the economy. As a business owner (since you're such a successful capitalist), would you not appreciate their spending on your products? Keeping you in business? Because they damn sure won't be spending that money on you if they couldn't afford healthcare. When you think of it this way is the small payment you make to subsidise them really such a bad thing?
 
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