New healthcare bill isn't dreaded socialism

[tegid]

Like when they say: the Canadian system is NOT PERFECT (ok it's better than ours but if it isn't perfect don't wanna...)

You always seem to refer to the Canadians, which is natural since they are right by you, but there are A LOT more countries you can get your inspiration from. Also, the idea that public helthcare should mean private hc being forbidden comes off as quite absurd to me.

@Messiah:

Most of these points have already been adressed, but since you don't seem to get them, I'll quickly go over them.

0- Survival of the fittest my fuck. If someone isn't able to provide the basics to himself and their family, but they try, I'll gladly help them (or rather have an organized force that does). Man, I'm glad I don't live in a country where some historic characters are regarded as so admirable and perfect that whatever they said, whichever ideals they had, is the Word of God.

1- You can't compare not paying healthcare to shoplifting. You have the option not to steal, but do you have the option not to live? Much harder, isn't it?

2- Sooo you could get loans right? That way everyone would pay. Riiiight. Who's going to lend you the money if you are poor as fuck?

3- And this is new, you seem to think that if healthcare wasn't overpriced (which I'm sure it is in your country) it would be affordable for everyone. What you're not taking into account is that many treatments are inherently expensive. Particularly treatments that will be useful in life or death situations: the latest technology, new chemicals, or even some of these that are not that new or breakthrough but are rare. It also takes a certain volume of workforce (nurses, doctors), much bigger than what you need at a store or whatever, and also at a greater price per worker (a doctor shouldn't be paid the same as a cashier, right?)


Also, I don't know if it was you or someone else who said it, but to whomever said that public healthcare would mean a lot of unemployment 'cause many people in the private healthcare sector would lose their jobs:
WTF?! Do you think public healthcare would have fucking robots working? They would need doctors, nurses, accountants, whatever too!!

 

[Mr_Chaz]

Ah yes, the Constitution point, I forgot that one...


Messiah, do you honestly think the same rules and principles apply in the current world as applied 230 years ago? Everything that they said then is still relevant? You think that the world where intensive farming didn't exist, there wasn't a risk of overpopulation, there was no computing or modern medicine, chemistry, building, etc. is close enough to our world that the guiding principles can't be any different? That's slightly deluded don't you think? Hell, we live in a world where people bet on trades in the potential changes in value of a commodity. Where the economy has suffered because banks parcelled up and sold on debts, and you think the market is the same as it was when you were a frontier country with manifest destiny at the forefront of your minds?

Man, there's something wrong with your view of the USA.

 

[WolfOfOdin]

My father was a police officer who was at one time, shot in the line of duty, it caused shrapnel to be lodged in his body that the surgeon was unable to remove.

Eventually, Dad quit the police force due to the stress and got a decent job as a carpenter. New health insurance with that job. Eventually, the shrapnel was dislodged and was moving into a bad spot in his body, he needed to be operated on or there was a good chance he'd loose a leg....his health insurance decided it was a pre-existing "natural condition" and wouldn't cover it. Thank god for his buddies on the force though, they raised the money to get it fixed.

 

[Bowielee]

See, the problem with trying to get universal health care is the lobbyists for the insurance companies will grease the palms of the politicians who will call universal health care communist. And God (remember CAPITAL G) knows that we hate those pinko commies in this country. They try to doll it up in other circular logic, but that's what it basically plays to for the red state crowd. Commies are bad, commies have socialized medicine, therefore, socialized medicine is bad.

That is the direct link that they STILL make to argue against universal health care, that or your taxes will go up.

Guess what, they're going up anyway in most cases. I'd rather they be put towards healthcare than most other frankensteinish pet projects people on the hill have cooking.

Messiah can be all cavalier with his attitude because he hasn't had to talk to hundreds of people on a daily basis who are all saying the same thing. "I want to pay you, but my insurance is denying most of the bill and I owe 5-10 times more than my deductible."

After several years in health care billing, I can tell you right now that it HAS gotten worse, to the point where people have to decide whether to eat, pay rent, or pay their bills, and in a lot of cases, the eat and pay rent are an OR choice, not an AND choice. Insurance companies do use underhanded tactics to deny claims and circumvent the system. The basic problem is that Messiah is making the victims out to be the villains when they're actually, y'know, victims.

 

[Chazwozel]

See, the problem with trying to get universal health care is the lobbyists for the insurance companies will grease the palms of the politicians who will call universal health care communist. And God (remember CAPITAL G) knows that we hate those pinko commies in this country. They try to doll it up in other circular logic, but that's what it basically plays to for the red state crowd. Commies are bad, commies have socialized medicine, therefore, socialized medicine is bad.

That is the direct link that they STILL make to argue against universal health care, that or your taxes will go up.

Guess what, they're going up anyway in most cases. I'd rather they be put towards healthcare than most other frankensteinish pet projects people on the hill have cooking.

Messiah can be all cavalier with his attitude because he hasn't had to talk to hundreds of people on a daily basis who are all saying the same thing. "I want to pay you, but my insurance is denying most of the bill and I owe 5-10 times more than my deductible."

After several years in health care billing, I can tell you right now that it HAS gotten worse, to the point where people have to decide whether to eat, pay rent, or pay their bills, and in a lot of cases, the eat and pay rent are an OR choice, not an AND choice. Insurance companies do use underhanded tactics to deny claims and circumvent the system. The basic problem is that Messiah is making the victims out to be the villains when they're actually, y'know, victims.

You know what America needs to strive for? Start at the root of the problem. Pay people a living minimum wage. But I digress...

The problem with junior Messiah here. He's all talk and no experience.

My wife had to have her thyroid removed earlier this year. Thank God, I'm not poor and have good insurance. I can really feel for people in that kind of situation. Christ, I'm stuck paying back student loans at 200 bucks a month, let alone tacking on another bill a month with his proposed "pay it back plan".

You want people to get into debt worse than they are and banks to pucker up their assholes nice and tight? Force them to get loans to pay their medical bills. This isn't a fucking house or a car we're talking about, it's people's right to live and their right to healthcare. How does a bank sit down and begin to make that decision on a loan were someone is going to die if you deny it? That bank will know damn well that the loan is a risk that may or may not be payed back. Isn't this pretty much what caused the economic downturn in the first place? Bad lending practices on behalf of banks and consumers?

 

[tegid]

I think regardless of all of this what needs to be said and repeated is that you already spend a lot on healthcare and with all that money, given a decent reform, you could have a really great system. Without paying more taxes!

 

[@Li3n]

Ha, this thread should have ended after he didn't respond to my last post... (ok, when he 1st spelled Amerika with a k).

 

[WolfOfOdin]

I'm talking about honest hard working people who can't make it in a system that's inherently stacked against them.

Stacked against them due to endless political machinations. Go ahead and read everything that I have said in this thread so far (notice I didn't say ''re-read'') and then come back and pick up the rest of this post.

See, every time a stupid, corrupt and morally bankrupt politician (all of them) makes a stupid, corrupt and morally bankrupt decision (all of them) on legislation, rule of law or even which prostitute to spend taxpayer money on, we look a little less like the America that the founders intended. Because we have moved so far away from self reliance and the expectation of resposibility on a personal level that the government tells us when to look and when to leap, what we can and cannot do in our jobs, in our business and even in our personal lives.

Like I said, the Amerika we inhabit today bears little resemblance to what the founders intended.

The government which governs least, governs best. The more involved the feds get, the larger the federal government grows and the more difficult it becomes to succeed through our own efforts. The message here is that the states need to take back the rights that were always intended to be state's rights and the federal government needs to be largely dismantled, until it vaguely resembles what was set forth in the constitution of the United States of America.

I have gotten so far from the intent of this thread... The way to fix the health care problem is to kick out all the illegal immigrants (enforce existing laws), force people to pay their doctor bills (the cause of inflation of medical service costs) and move to a more efficient method of treatment and record keeping (sharing medical info between providers via the web, just like Obama wants, can't believe I am agreeing with him but it's a good idea). I also like the idea of medical savings accounts that start at birth and rollover to your heirs at death. Might work, might not, but it deserves consideration at the very least.

-- Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:16 pm --

A few posts ago you called somebody out in being apathetic (the FTFY post). Now you're the one being a defeatist. People like to live walking towards ideals, and today's collective ego has chosen to not let someone die puking blood on the sidewalk because they couldn't afford their treatment, even though it was available to them. This isn't about hungry people next to empty stores (yadda yadda starving african children) but the ones we have resources to help and the proximity to not be easy to ignore them.

Nobody is advocating withholding treatment from the poor. Making a way for that treatment to get paid for, that is the crux of the discussion. I paid off my student loans at $50 a month. That is just one option out of millions that don't call for socialization of medicine, which is just a way for politicians to increase their power.

Messiah, do you understand the way a business works? The main goal of a business is to maximize profit and minimize cost, this is done in varying ways by the myriad industries in our country. In terms of medical insurance, profit is gained when a healthy individual continues to pay his or her premiums without incurring claims that would be seen as a loss to the company, leading said company to deny claims based on criteria such as 'pre-existing condition, expense outweighs potential gain in return premiums" ect.

Without government regulation, a health insurance company could become stringent to the point where they could deny damn near ANYTHING if it incurred the most minimal loss to them or on the flip side, grow complacent to where they cover almost anything, disregarding the fact that the customer may not be able to repay and leading to substantial losses and then possible job loss in order to recoup losses.

Now, if you have great insurance and a good policy, this works fine as the company knows they'll be getting their money out of you regardless, or if you can foot the bulk of the bill out of pocket. Complete deregulation of any business would be horrific, playing into the bubble/burst system our economy limps along with right now. This can be seen in banking as well, where right now lending policies are INSANELY strict due to the losses incurred due to complacent lending policies.


About healthcare though, the running joke right now is that the best way to provide healthcare to the masses is to adopt a Swiss military system, where every man and woman is automatically required to be inducted into the military at the age of majority, which would theoretically provide all the uninsured with healthcare and provide a sizable citizen levy in times of war and conflict.

 

[Steven Soderburgin]

what happened to my thread?

 

[Mr_Chaz]

what happened to my thread?

The Buttcrack Messiah happened. Sorry.

 

[tegid]

A few posts ago you called somebody out in being apathetic (the FTFY post). Now you're the one being a defeatist. People like to live walking towards ideals, and today's collective ego has chosen to not let someone die puking blood on the sidewalk because they couldn't afford their treatment, even though it was available to them. This isn't about hungry people next to empty stores (yadda yadda starving african children) but the ones we have resources to help and the proximity to not be easy to ignore them.

Nobody is advocating withholding treatment from the poor. Making a way for that treatment to get paid for, that is the crux of the discussion. I paid off my student loans at $50 a month. That is just one option out of millions that don't call for socialization of medicine, which is just a way for politicians to increase their power.

How much was the total of your student loans?

-- Wed Jul 29, 2009 4:32 pm --

Also, going back to the original topic, anyone care to summarize what this proposition is about?

 

[filmfanatic]

Also, going back to the original topic, anyone care to summarize what this proposition is about?

Basically, a potential mandate for people that they MUST get health insurance, while businesses won't be REQUIRED to offer it.

 

[Steven Soderburgin]

It's a proposal that would force everyone to buy private health insurace with no public option. It's essentially the same as our current system, except you HAVE to buy into it, or get a tax penalty.

 

[tegid]

But it takes into account that some people can't pay them, I'm sure?

If not...

(I already had most of it right... The unclear point was the public alternative. Thanks for clearing that. It sucks hard, though :S )

 

[Chibibar]

I personally am guilty of "selective reading" but I am trying to understand where The Messiah is coming from (and failing big time)

You keep touting that people need to pay their bills. That is a given, but when they can't... those bills are being paid by someone (usually insurance company) which the insurance jack up their prices to cover their lose to people who ARE paying medical insurance.

Doctors and Nurses are being paid. The main people who are being screwed are insurance people.

Basic economic
business is created to make money. Sure there is a service, but the bottom line is making money.

Insurance business is hoping to make money than lose money. The idea is that you get 1000 people paying 200$ a month (number totally made up) that is 200k a month. Minus admin cost (salary, building rent, utilities and such for the company) the rest goes into investment to make profit FOR the company. Now generally a small number of insured people will get sick and need to see a doctor. The insurance will pay those out and the insurer will paid a deductible or co-pay (like me) but the money going out STILL less than money coming in (i.e. premium) if this number changes, then either 1. premium changes 2. people are denied insurance or turn away. The company don't want to lose money.

There are several type of insurance (auto, medical, legal, unpaid balance - I think)

When a non-insured person goes to the hospital, that person is stuck with the FULL amount of the bill. Usually I can tell you it is WAY higher than anyone of us can pay normally without insurance (I am assuming) but people need medical. UNLESS there is a law that will change the medical world to TURN people away if they can't pay (that would totally suck) The doctors and nurses are still getting paid, but someone else is footing the bill (or covers it) for now until the patient can afford it or default (which goes into collection) this means that the hospital has to make up the money somehow (it is a business after all) which mean increase hospital prices and care.

It is a vicious cycle. We are currently stuck in it. There is a HUGE medical debt already. Who is going to pay that? I guess one way is to have the government wipe the debt clean (but is that feasible?) and start over, but I don't see that happening. There is no ROI on that avenue. We need to change the current system to reduce this debt. One idea is to have insurance available to everyone (even with government help) this of course goes back to the basic idea that a lot of people pay and few sick (also poorer people can contribute to the system also instead of just taking from the system) it kinda even out. This will reduce the debt in the long run (less chance of people defaulting on their medical bills) and hopefully balance out.

I do believe this is what Obama had in mind. Of course the details keep changing via congress (it is like 400+ pages long a friend send me a link) It is a slow slow process cause we don't want the hospital getting screwed cause they are already have collection debt on people they already treated and still not paid.

I hope I am clear on this. I tend to type as I think so sometimes some of my thoughts might not come clear.

 

[Covar]

Guess what, they're going up anyway in most cases. I'd rather they be put towards healthcare than most other frankensteinish pet projects people on the hill have cooking.

You realize Congress doesn't make either/or decisions when it comes to spending money right?

 

[Chibibar]

Guess what, they're going up anyway in most cases. I'd rather they be put towards healthcare than most other frankensteinish pet projects people on the hill have cooking.

You realize Congress doesn't make either/or decisions when it comes to spending money right?

no, but they do/can set policies on how the money is spent. The initial goof up on the first half of the bail money. Some of the banks are holding it in their reserves to ensure their bank don't fail instead of pumping into the economy. Some have been accuse allegedly of spending money on bonus, parties, buying new offices, and mergers. Congress is now trying to set up rules on the rest of the bail out money.

 

[Espy]

Only better, it don't have to be perfect.

Cha ching! We have a winner. Everyone always finds the flaws in the plan, well guess what, it's never going to be perfect. Get over it, and instead find the best available solution.

To be fair, I never said PERFECT. We will NEVER have perfect anything and a motto of "anything is better than we have now" is not a terribly healthy one (no pun intended) in my opinion. I for one am not willing to give up the freedoms in that CNN article that they discuss. To me the sacrifice would kill any potential good the bill could do. I'm willing to entertain someones ideas of why they are willing to sacrifice the the five freedoms discussed in the article and I am even, unlike some, willing to be swayed.
But simply telling me I'm wrong because anything is better than what we have now just leaves me worrying about what kind of mindset rules our country, it's not a long term mindset, it's a immediate gratification mindset and it's far to common these days.

 

[JCM]

 

[The Messiah]

Yes, I am on the edge of my seat waiting for more ''debate'' and ''facts.''

 

[Bowielee]

I'm basically out of the discussion. It's become pretty clear that Messiah's sole intent is to troll.

 

[The Messiah]

It's become pretty clear that your idea of a rational argument is ''NUH UH! NUH UH! NUH UH!'' Since I will never be able to make you or anyone else see reason, what motivation do I have to participate? Especially when the best you can do is insult me on a personal level. Repeatedly.

 

[JCM]

I'm basically out of the discussion. It's become pretty clear that Messiah's sole intent is to troll.

Took you that long to figure out? I avoided entering as soon as someone tried to defend the American system by finding flaws in the Canadian one.

While no country is perfect, Canada has been ranked the number 1 in the human development index (healthcare/standard of living/education/life expectancy) 8 times, why not compare it to a country which has worse healthcare like Brazil, instead of a country with a better system?

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

Messiah, do you think government should maintain our roads, schools, police forces, fire departments, and military? What makes healthcare different from those basic services? If no, tell us about the ideal world with privatized police forces please.

 

[Jay]

My father was a police officer who was at one time, shot in the line of duty, it caused shrapnel to be lodged in his body that the surgeon was unable to remove.

Eventually, Dad quit the police force due to the stress and got a decent job as a carpenter. New health insurance with that job. Eventually, the shrapnel was dislodged and was moving into a bad spot in his body, he needed to be operated on or there was a good chance he'd loose a leg....his health insurance decided it was a pre-existing "natural condition" and wouldn't cover it. Thank god for his buddies on the force though, they raised the money to get it fixed.

This is a really nice gesture after a standard BULLSHIT call from the insurance company. This is the sort of stuff that literally baffles and enrages me to see, that people, especially people who put their life on the line, have to wade through a moat of shit to get what they deserve to have.

People have expressed how "slow" the Canadian system (exaggerated bullshit) is but in the end, if it was life threatening he'd been operated on right away or at worse wait a little while to get it taken care of without dealing through multiple phone calls, sign papers, check with his insurance like a tard but to simply show up at a clinic, show him his card, they scan the card and he goes and see a doctor. Then comes back for his operation... all of this... at no immediate cost other than waiting a little bit.

There's a reason whenever I cross the border I go and get myself travel insurance to the US... the US health system is a joke and downright scary as a foreigner and I don't even think the Canadian system is all that great... just sufficient. When I see how things are at in France and Britain and that they have longer life longevity if I didn't have family or loved ones... I'd be living there.

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

Also:

 

[Chibibar]

It's become pretty clear that your idea of a rational argument is ''NUH UH! NUH UH! NUH UH!'' Since I will never be able to make you or anyone else see reason, what motivation do I have to participate? Especially when the best you can do is insult me on a personal level. Repeatedly.

I have not insulted anyone yet on this thread. Have you not read my post and counter post?

 

[JCM]

It's become pretty clear that your idea of a rational argument is ''NUH UH! NUH UH! NUH UH!'' Since I will never be able to make you or anyone else see reason, what motivation do I have to participate? Especially when the best you can do is insult me on a personal level. Repeatedly.

I have not insulted anyone yet on this thread. Have you not read my post and counter post?

Err, you are talking to a novelty poster who posts "Death to america!" and the like. What do you expect?

 

[Chibibar]

It's become pretty clear that your idea of a rational argument is ''NUH UH! NUH UH! NUH UH!'' Since I will never be able to make you or anyone else see reason, what motivation do I have to participate? Especially when the best you can do is insult me on a personal level. Repeatedly.

I have not insulted anyone yet on this thread. Have you not read my post and counter post?

Err, you are talking to a novelty poster who posts "Death to america!" and the like. What do you expect?

to skim over my post? I know my writing is no up to snuff. maybe there is too much accent in my post

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

guys, I'm faced with the terrifying possibility that "the messiah" has ignored me

 

The Messiah is alterrific. I would be interested to know if it's a character of the original poster or if the two are merging.

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

The Messiah is alterrific. I would be interested to know if it's a character of the original poster or if the two are merging.

He posted earlier that he's not an alt, but a poster's brother living in a van down by the river or something

 

[ElJuski]

its a camper get your facts straight!

 

[JCM]

Amateurs, my alt has lasted 4 forums, has received pms from admirers and until today is active.

 

The Messiah is alterrific. I would be interested to know if it's a character of the original poster or if the two are merging.

He posted earlier that he's not an alt, but a poster's brother living in a van down by the river or something

I missed that and probably should have known it. Like yourself & Kissinger, there is much confusion due to identical IP address on the accounts.