Sex ed: Obama's initiative K-12 (need teacher's perspective)

[Chazwozel]

So Chaz, are people not supposed to form opinions or get educated on child rearing principles before having kids? I guess they need to stumble into it like a bunch of redneck parents.

if you think that's what I'm saying, you need to learn some reading comprehension. All I'm saying is that your opinions mean dick when it's your turn to be up at bat in regard to the experience, which is why people without kids can have their opinions of how to raise a child, but they need to shut the fuck up when it comes to dishing out advice.

I feel the same way about people who watch sports and criticize the players' actions, despite never playing a sport. You can know all the rules to the game like the back of your hand, but unless you've played, you need to shut the fuck up.

 

[sixpackshaker]

Then I expect you to stay out of the sports discussions. You've never played in the NFL, NHL, or MLB.

Your arguments might have a little more authority if you weren't typing away like a loon.

 

[Piotyr]

All Chaz is saying that actually being a parent provides a level of perspective that all the research, observation, and knowledge in the world can't possibly provide. Without that perspective, any opinion is going to come coupled with a caveat on that lack of perspective.

 

[Cajungal]

I can see where he's coming from. I know how to interact with a student, but I don't know what it feels like to be a parent. I don't think equating it with sports talk is necessarily a good idea, because it's less damaging to bullshit about sports than a child. No one's well-being is at stake if someone yells at the man running on TV, but if someone who doesn't know any better gives someone dangerous advice about parenting, that's a huge problem.

Nothing wrong with shooting the shit as long as people here understand to take what we say with a grain of salt.

 

[Chibibar]

So Chaz, are people not supposed to form opinions or get educated on child rearing principles before having kids? I guess they need to stumble into it like a bunch of redneck parents.

if you think that's what I'm saying, you need to learn some reading comprehension. All I'm saying is that your opinions mean dick when it's your turn to be up at bat in regard to the experience, which is why people without kids can have their opinions of how to raise a child, but they need to shut the fuck up when it comes to dishing out advice.

I feel the same way about people who watch sports and criticize the players' actions, despite never playing a sport. You can know all the rules to the game like the back of your hand, but unless you've played, you need to shut the fuck up.[/QUOTE]

I heard that some coaches can teach but never played or at least played way back when but know the game. Does that count? or they can't coach either?

 

[Krisken]

Does this personal experience rule apply to healthcare or the many wars we are involved in? Those have life or death effects on lives. Doesn't get much more damaging than that.

 

[Wasabi Poptart]

Ok, Chaz, as someone with children (both a boy and a girl) I am teaching my kids the proper terminology for their body parts. My daughter has a vagina. My son has a penis. We have always referred to them as such. Why? Because everyone (in general) gives different cutesy names to body parts. You say your daughter's privates are called a pee-pee. If she tells an adult, other than you or your wife, that someone touched her pee-pee will they know for sure what she's talking about? Maybe. And maybe not. I don't assume that anyone will know what my kid is talking about, so I am teaching them the proper names for their genitalia. I think it is important for their own safety.

 

[Cajungal]

As a childless person who, due to experiences with family, has some itsy-bitsy inkling about how she might like to raise a child one day, I think that this is a good decision.

 

[tegid]

So Chaz, are people not supposed to form opinions or get educated on child rearing principles before having kids? I guess they need to stumble into it like a bunch of redneck parents.

if you think that's what I'm saying, you need to learn some reading comprehension. All I'm saying is that your opinions mean dick when it's your turn to be up at bat in regard to the experience, which is why people without kids can have their opinions of how to raise a child, but they need to shut the fuck up when it comes to dishing out advice.[/QUOTE]

Actually, you said that people know nothing about parenting without the unique perspective blah blah. That's not so different from saying they aren't supposed to have opionions! You have also repeatedly said our opinions mean dick. Well, as I said (did I? I think I did), opinions can have more or less value depending on things such as experience and knowledge. Yes, it's reasonable to say that the opinion of a parent is far more valid than that of someone who doesn't have children, but it's not all-or-nothing, dude. My opinion is still worth something even if I don't have children. Maybe I've helped raise some baby brothers of mine, or I'm just doing that. What the fuck do you know? Actually, I think my opinion even with no experience is, must be, more valid in some way or another than the opinion of some redneck fathers I've seen.

Two more points for you:
1- There are as many different opinions among parents than there are among nonparents. So, probably, the opinion of someone without children will be shared by someone who actually does have them. BAM! My opinion is suddenly valid! (Don't pay much attention to this one)
2- Do you think you don't do this? You hate when people give their opinion, critizise, whatever, sports or parenting without the actual experience. You realize that about these two things because you DO have the experience, but do you think you don't do this, maybe without knowing? When you 'give advice' to people who are shut-ins with people problems, aren't you doing this? Do you have any experience about having this kind of problems, being this way? And you do it pretty aggressively too! (read: Mav)

I think I get what you are trying to say and I understand it somehow, but you are being far too extreme about it.

TL;DR: Someone's opinion rarely means nothing, maybe you shouldn't go around telling people to shut the fuck up.

 

[Morphine]

I perfectly understand what he means, just like I wouldn't want men to try to give me advice about cramps or my period or motherhood or whatever, of course I get what he's saying, How many times do I have to say that what I said was not an advice and was not about parenting?

Seriously Chaz, with all the love that's in my heart: you need to take a chill pill.

 

[Dave]

The problem with satellite parenting is that each child is different and each situation is different. It's bullshit even for me to look at a kid in a store throwing a fit and say, "That's not the right way to do it." There are too many variables I don't have. Yes, that parent might suck and have no idea of how discipline affects kids. Or the kid could be special needs and have thrashing/yelling as a symptom. Or actually be ADHD (not just lazily diagnosed as such to get them on medication). Or the kid could be sick and not know how to express themself. Mom might not be able to just drop everything and drag junior out of the store because she really needs to buy what's in the cart. Or Junior throwing a tantrum might be something reinforced by the parents and this is a babysitter.

Just too much you don't know.


Like my son and daughter. My son couldn't handle stuff like this at a young age while my daughter could. So we have had to treat them differently since they were very young. Does that mean our approach was correct or incorrect? No. It just means that we did the best we could and hope that they don't turn out to be bell tower shooters. Kids don't come with an instruction manual. News flash! Parents don't know what the fuck they are doing no matter how much they want the kids to think they are. We hope to God we're not doing it wrong and fucking them up but we don't know!

My big problem with the education/sex ed talk is that in the interest of society, measurability and cost effectiveness we standardize everything. But that doesn't work as kids learn things differently. Sex ed is great but if the kid ain't ready the kid ain't ready.

 

[tegid]

That's an entirely different argument than the 'experience' thing, though.

 

[Wasabi Poptart]

Don't these programs usually let the parents opt their kids out if they don't think the kid is ready or want them to learn about sex (on any level) in school? I seem to remember it being that way when I was in middle school and high school.

 

[Chazwozel]

So Chaz, are people not supposed to form opinions or get educated on child rearing principles before having kids? I guess they need to stumble into it like a bunch of redneck parents.

if you think that's what I'm saying, you need to learn some reading comprehension. All I'm saying is that your opinions mean dick when it's your turn to be up at bat in regard to the experience, which is why people without kids can have their opinions of how to raise a child, but they need to shut the fuck up when it comes to dishing out advice.

I feel the same way about people who watch sports and criticize the players' actions, despite never playing a sport. You can know all the rules to the game like the back of your hand, but unless you've played, you need to shut the fuck up.[/QUOTE]

I heard that some coaches can teach but never played or at least played way back when but know the game. Does that count? or they can't coach either?[/QUOTE]

I don't think they make a very effective coach, no. How can you teach someone something if you have no experience in it?

 

[Wasabi Poptart]

News flash! Parents don't know what the fuck they are doing no matter how much they want the kids to think they are. We hope to God we're not doing it wrong and fucking them up but we don't know!

Dave, that is one statement I could seriously kiss you for!

 

[Chazwozel]

Two more points for you:
1- There are as many different opinions among parents than there are among nonparents. So, probably, the opinion of someone without children will be shared by someone who actually does have them. BAM! My opinion is suddenly valid! (Don't pay much attention to this one)
2- Do you think you don't do this? You hate when people give their opinion, critizise, whatever, sports or parenting without the actual experience. You realize that about these two things because you DO have the experience, but do you think you don't do this, maybe without knowing? When you 'give advice' to people who are shut-ins with people problems, aren't you doing this? Do you have any experience about having this kind of problems, being this way? And you do it pretty aggressively too! (read: Mav)

So because I don't have asperger's syndrome I can't give guys like Mav ideas on what has worked for me from my social experiences? That's not a case of an inexperienced person acting as an expert. That's a case of an expert teaching someone through experience.

---------- Post added at 01:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:11 PM ----------

News flash! Parents don't know what the fuck they are doing no matter how much they want the kids to think they are. We hope to God we're not doing it wrong and fucking them up but we don't know!

Dave, that is one statement I could seriously kiss you for![/QUOTE]

Word. So, let me extrapolate here. Wasabi, I'm sure you've had a case where one of your kids was sick in the middle of the night and you were terrified for their safety and well-being. Should I call a doctor? Should I wait it out? Should I induce vomiting? How would someone who has not had children be able to relate to that experience. Sure, you can read it in a book. You can know CPR, or when to induce vomiting, but that doesn't mean you can proclaim: "I'd do this in that specific situation, or I'd give my kid a piece of my mind".

Gah! If you guys don't know what I'm talking about go watch Good Will Hunting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qM-gZintWDc&feature=PlayList&p=6EB3F1FB599C49E6&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=38

 

[tegid]

But, see, you are saying you can't understand those feelings if you haven't been there. I understand that! Neither does someone who hasn't felt social anxiety understand it. Can you still have an opinion, give advice? Yes you can! Anyway, if you don't like this one argument, ditch it.

I'll try to come from a diferent angle: I obviously have not felt what you describe for my own children, but that doesn't mean I can't relate! How do you know I haven't been in that situation with my younger brother, or my mom in a situation in which she could not decide for herself, or whatever? I know it's different, but come on, I can at least have an idea of what I'd do in a certain situation, based on what I know and my previous experience? OF COURSE I cannot tell you what you should do, but I can have an opinion of what I would do, even if in the situation things change dramatically and I would act differently. Much more so when it's not a more or less dramatic situation like the one you described.

In half a year I'll have 2 baby brothers with special needs, and I have some strong opinions on how they should be brought up. Am I going to voice these? Fuck yes.

---------- Post added at 05:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:44 PM ----------

PS.: I'm tired and my writing is probably very unclear. It may also seem that I'm pushing an absurd argument again and again. I don't think I am, I think I actually agree with the underlying idea of you people's posts, I'm arguing more of a nuance than anything, I guess?

 

[Chibibar]

So Chaz, are people not supposed to form opinions or get educated on child rearing principles before having kids? I guess they need to stumble into it like a bunch of redneck parents.

if you think that's what I'm saying, you need to learn some reading comprehension. All I'm saying is that your opinions mean dick when it's your turn to be up at bat in regard to the experience, which is why people without kids can have their opinions of how to raise a child, but they need to shut the fuck up when it comes to dishing out advice.

I feel the same way about people who watch sports and criticize the players' actions, despite never playing a sport. You can know all the rules to the game like the back of your hand, but unless you've played, you need to shut the fuck up.[/QUOTE]

I heard that some coaches can teach but never played or at least played way back when but know the game. Does that count? or they can't coach either?[/QUOTE]

I don't think they make a very effective coach, no. How can you teach someone something if you have no experience in it?[/QUOTE]
Bill Belichick and Mike Shanahan

Bill Belichick - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
bill: never played in NFL (play college) I was told that college vs NFL are totally different beast and yet this man got his team to 3 super bowls.

Mike Shanahan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
minimal game. Taken out early back in college and enter coach (never play NFL)

Todd Haley - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
never play football on any level and got his team to super bowl (but lost) and was even offer head coach position (but retracted after the team lost)

this just tells me that some people (not me) with a lot of visual experience and play little or none (in case with Todd) CAN do certain things cause they have the knowledge or gift within them. There have been exception in our history and I believe that people who work exclusively with children on many levels may give some good parenting advice. Now, is it good for your kids? probably not, since not all kids are equal, but on the general level some advice can be valid and shouldn't be discarded.

I know you would disagree with me on this, but sometimes another person can give a fresh perspective or outlook on this from a different angle. Now that advice/opinion may not work for you, but it could work for others. Also don't forget the social experience. In many Asian culture, it takes the whole family to raise a kid.

But on the flip side, even parents WITH kids don't raise their kids properly (for whatever reason or faction) and some turn out to be criminals, murderers, rapist, or politician

 

[Chazwozel]

Dude: I'M NOT SAYING THAT A PERSON NEEDS TO BE A PRO ATHELETE TO COACH PROS OR ANYONE, BUT THAT THEY HAVE AT LEAST PLAYED THE GAME AT ONE POINT IN THEIR LIVES. ANY SPORT FOR THAT MATTER. JESUS FUCKING CHRIST'S BALLS ON A PLATTER!

Todd Haley never played football, but he was on the golf team in college. He's experienced sport first hand. He understands the mentality of winning and losing. Do you understand? If you've never played a sport, ever, how are you expected to impart knowledge of sport to others? You can't, which is why Todd Haley is THE ONLY small exception in that he's never played Football and coaches it.

 

[Cajungal]

I don't have sound at the office, so I can't find the video... but has anyone seen the Louis CK bit where he talks about the non-parent looking at a tired and jaded parent saying, "What a terrible mother... when I have a child I will answer every single one of their questions!"

This thread reminds me of that.

 

[Chazwozel]

I don't have sound at the office, so I can't find the video... but has anyone seen the Louis CK bit where he talks about the non-parent looking at a tired and jaded parent saying, "What a terrible mother... when I have a child I will answer every single one of their questions!"

This thread reminds me of that.

I forget the comedian, but his skit went like this:

You can which people have kids and those that don't. If you're at the grocery store and a kid acts up around his parents. The parent is having a hard time shutting the kid up. He's screaming and whining. The person without the kids goes, "Oh that poor child, what are those parents doing to you?" People with kids go, "Oh you poor parent, look what that horrible kid has done to you."

 

[Wasabi Poptart]

News flash! Parents don't know what the fuck they are doing no matter how much they want the kids to think they are. We hope to God we're not doing it wrong and fucking them up but we don't know!

Dave, that is one statement I could seriously kiss you for![/QUOTE]

Word. So, let me extrapolate here. Wasabi, I'm sure you've had a case where one of your kids was sick in the middle of the night and you were terrified for their safety and well-being. Should I call a doctor? Should I wait it out? Should I induce vomiting? How would someone who has not had children be able to relate to that experience. Sure, you can read it in a book. You can know CPR, or when to induce vomiting, but that doesn't mean you can proclaim: "I'd do this in that specific situation, or I'd give my kid a piece of my mind".
[/QUOTE]

I do agree with you to an extent, Chaz. It's easy to say "If I were you I'd..." when you haven't been there. No one can exactly understand how it feels to have a child who is very ill unless they have experienced it themselves. When we thought my son had meningitis this past spring, and he was hospitalized, it was probably the most frightened I have ever been. That said, I wouldn't dare to believe I understand what parents with a child who has a disability or terminal illness are going though. However, based experiences I have had in my life, I can empathize and I do have valid opinions that may apply. I think there is a difference between expressing an opinion based on personal views and giving out advice without first hand knowledge to back it up. From what I have seen in this thread, most people are expressing opinions and not saying that any of us as parents should or shouldn't do what we think is right for our own children.

 

[Chibibar]

Dude: I'M NOT SAYING THAT A PERSON NEEDS TO BE A PRO ATHELETE TO COACH PROS OR ANYONE, BUT THAT THEY HAVE AT LEAST PLAYED THE GAME AT ONE POINT IN THEIR LIVES. ANY SPORT FOR THAT MATTER. JESUS FUCKING CHRIST'S BALLS ON A PLATTER!

Todd Haley never played football, but he was on the golf team in college. He's experienced sport first hand. He understands the mentality of winning and losing. Do you understand? If you've never played a sport, ever, how are you expected to impart knowledge of sport to others? You can't, which is why Todd Haley is THE ONLY small exception in that he's never played Football and coaches it.

yes. I understand it, but you are saying like you have to be IN the field to understand it.

maybe I am understanding you incorrectly (it happens) so lets use the football and golf.

football = actual parent, you have your own kids
golf = you take care of children BUT not a parent

That is how I see it.
Sure both are sports = "taking care of kids" but one aspect (football) you know more about it since they are your kids, their needs, and what you learn from your parents and other parents.
so a parent (football player) would know more about taking care of kids on personal level. Cause they have worries and anxiety of their own children (their team) and can better serve the child since they know the in and outs (knowing football)
but say a teacher or uncle (golf player) work with kids and even help raise other kids (in their home but not their own) would know a bit more about children than people say, never work with kids (people don't play any sports) so while they know the taking care of kids (the sport) they might not know the intricate details (football) but they know the rules and situation cause they do similar thing (sport)

So to me, people who work with kids a lot, would know some aspect of raising a child to a degree. Do they know all? probably not, unless they have their own kids (football).

I hope that is more clear. It does sound logical in my head, but you know..... sometimes it is hard to put into words.

 

[Chazwozel]

News flash! Parents don't know what the fuck they are doing no matter how much they want the kids to think they are. We hope to God we're not doing it wrong and fucking them up but we don't know!

Dave, that is one statement I could seriously kiss you for![/QUOTE]

Word. So, let me extrapolate here. Wasabi, I'm sure you've had a case where one of your kids was sick in the middle of the night and you were terrified for their safety and well-being. Should I call a doctor? Should I wait it out? Should I induce vomiting? How would someone who has not had children be able to relate to that experience. Sure, you can read it in a book. You can know CPR, or when to induce vomiting, but that doesn't mean you can proclaim: "I'd do this in that specific situation, or I'd give my kid a piece of my mind".
[/QUOTE]

I do agree with you to an extent, Chaz. It's easy to say "If I were you I'd..." when you haven't been there. No one can exactly understand how it feels to have a child who is very ill unless they have experienced it themselves. When we thought my son had meningitis this past spring, and he was hospitalized, it was probably the most frightened I have ever been. That said, I wouldn't dare to believe I understand what parents with a child who has a disability or terminal illness are going though. However, based experiences I have had in my life, I can empathize and I do have valid opinions that may apply. I think there is a difference between expressing an opinion based on personal views and giving out advice without first hand knowledge to back it up. From what I have seen in this thread, most people are expressing opinions and not saying that any of us as parents should or shouldn't do what we think is right for our own children.[/QUOTE]

I thought that's what I've been saying. Anyway, I agree.

---------- Post added at 02:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:34 PM ----------

Dude: I'M NOT SAYING THAT A PERSON NEEDS TO BE A PRO ATHELETE TO COACH PROS OR ANYONE, BUT THAT THEY HAVE AT LEAST PLAYED THE GAME AT ONE POINT IN THEIR LIVES. ANY SPORT FOR THAT MATTER. JESUS FUCKING CHRIST'S BALLS ON A PLATTER!

Todd Haley never played football, but he was on the golf team in college. He's experienced sport first hand. He understands the mentality of winning and losing. Do you understand? If you've never played a sport, ever, how are you expected to impart knowledge of sport to others? You can't, which is why Todd Haley is THE ONLY small exception in that he's never played Football and coaches it.

yes. I understand it, but you are saying like you have to be IN the field to understand it.

maybe I am understanding you incorrectly (it happens) so lets use the football and golf.

football = actual parent, you have your own kids
golf = you take care of children BUT not a parent
[/QUOTE]

Stop. That's a horrible analogy.

 

[Cajungal]

I don't have sound at the office, so I can't find the video... but has anyone seen the Louis CK bit where he talks about the non-parent looking at a tired and jaded parent saying, "What a terrible mother... when I have a child I will answer every single one of their questions!"

This thread reminds me of that.

I forget the comedian, but his skit went like this:

You can which people have kids and those that don't. If you're at the grocery store and a kid acts up around his parents. The parent is having a hard time shutting the kid up. He's screaming and whining. The person without the kids goes, "Oh that poor child, what are those parents doing to you?" People with kids go, "Oh you poor parent, look what that horrible kid has done to you."[/QUOTE]

YES! Spending more time with my sister and my niece flipped me on this. I love my godchild dearly, but she is completely insane.

 

[sixpackshaker]

I love hanging out with my friend and his daughter in a grocery store. When she starts acting up, he'll look down and say,

"Do you want an knuckle sandwich?!?"
"With extra pepper and cheeze?"

The horrified looks on the eavesdropper's faces is priceless.

He just uses that question to clue her in that he is getting a little upset, but he would rather joke about it, than make a scene.

 

[Chazwozel]

I love hanging out with my friend and his daughter in a grocery store. When she starts acting up, he'll look down and say,

"Do you want an knuckle sandwich?!?"
"With extra pepper and cheeze?"

The horrified looks on the eavesdropper's faces is priceless.

He just uses that question to clue her in that he is getting a little upset, but he would rather joke about it, than make a scene.

I like to use that kind of humor with my kids, but I'm always freaked out about some dipshit calling child services on my ass.

 

[Cajungal]

That's actually really cute. ^_^

---------- Post added at 01:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:40 PM ----------

Man, Chaz... a friend of mine actually had a problem with that as a kid. One of his friends called social services after he heard some fight at his house. The things he overheard were completely out of context, and he just panicked, called someone, and completely blew it out of proportion instead of asking.