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So you answered an personal ad on Craigslist...
#1
Espy
Espy
and the rather attractive female who posted it wants you to "fulfill" a fantasy of hers.
She wants you to come over and "rape" her.
Now, being the sort of desperate person that trolls craiglist for booty you go, sure, that could be fun, so you trade some pictures and she gives you details on how she wants you to go about doing this and you go ahead with it.
Your are, by the way, 26-year-old Ty McDowell.
So you go ahead with this and then, once the police sort things out you get arrested for rape.
Why?
The "woman" who set up the fantasy is actually the woman's ex-boyfriend, a U.S. Marine named Jebidiah Stipe. And it was Stipe, police say, who was e-mailing with McDowell as he planned the break-in and rape.
Now, you are being charged with rape and he is your accomplice. According to the article, http://www.kdvr.com/news/kdvr-craigslist-rape-020410,0,6704069.story the goal is to argue you did were merely acting on a fantasy, not attempting to actually rape anyone else.
So, should the court be lenient on this guy? Should the marine be charged with only being an accessory? Who should actually face more jail time or should the guy who answered that go free and the marine take the full hit for this or is he actually more responbile since he did not actually verify that the woman was indeed who she said she was? What say you Halforumites?
Also: Think twice before answering anonymous ads online.
She wants you to come over and "rape" her.
Now, being the sort of desperate person that trolls craiglist for booty you go, sure, that could be fun, so you trade some pictures and she gives you details on how she wants you to go about doing this and you go ahead with it.
Your are, by the way, 26-year-old Ty McDowell.
So you go ahead with this and then, once the police sort things out you get arrested for rape.
Why?
The "woman" who set up the fantasy is actually the woman's ex-boyfriend, a U.S. Marine named Jebidiah Stipe. And it was Stipe, police say, who was e-mailing with McDowell as he planned the break-in and rape.
Now, you are being charged with rape and he is your accomplice. According to the article, http://www.kdvr.com/news/kdvr-craigslist-rape-020410,0,6704069.story the goal is to argue you did were merely acting on a fantasy, not attempting to actually rape anyone else.
So, should the court be lenient on this guy? Should the marine be charged with only being an accessory? Who should actually face more jail time or should the guy who answered that go free and the marine take the full hit for this or is he actually more responbile since he did not actually verify that the woman was indeed who she said she was? What say you Halforumites?
Also: Think twice before answering anonymous ads online.
#2
Calleja
Calleja
So you answered an ad on CL...
Damn.
The ex-boyfriend should face complete rape-charges, that's for sure. The moron who answered? Eeesh... tough. His intention was really not that of actual rape, and rape fantasies are very, very real, believe me. It's a tough one, for sure.
Damn.
The ex-boyfriend should face complete rape-charges, that's for sure. The moron who answered? Eeesh... tough. His intention was really not that of actual rape, and rape fantasies are very, very real, believe me. It's a tough one, for sure.
#4
bhamv3
bhamv3
Yeah, very tough one, this. If they go lenient on the guy, that might be opening the door to future "but I thought it was a fantasy" defenses.
Though, yes, the guy should've been more careful in confirming the woman was the person who contacted him, and actually wanted to do this.
I suppose the best thing to take from this would be:
Though, yes, the guy should've been more careful in confirming the woman was the person who contacted him, and actually wanted to do this.
I suppose the best thing to take from this would be:
Think twice before answering anonymous ads online.
#5
Espy
Espy
I am very surprised the bf is only facing accomplice charges... that seems very strange to me. Maybe someone who knows the system can explain why that is.
#6
GasBandit
GasBandit
I'd say, since it is a crime to arrange for someone to kill someone else, it should also be considered a crime to arrange for someone to rape someone else. After all, it's still murder even if the person putting out the hit tells the hitman the target wants to die.
What it boils down to is the marine committed an act with the express purpose to cause bodily (and psychological) harm to someone else, and he should definitely be charged for it.
What it boils down to is the marine committed an act with the express purpose to cause bodily (and psychological) harm to someone else, and he should definitely be charged for it.
#7
Cajungal
Cajungal
This is like that story from a few months back about the woman whose address was posted on Craigslist as the location for a sex party. All I could think was, 'thank God no one forced their way into her home.' This is awful. The guy who answered should have been much more wary of such a shady invitation.
#8
Hailey Knight
Hailey Knight
If the guy is telling the truth, he should've confirmed stuff with her a la by phone, meeting in-person on a talking circumstance first, etc.
Either way, the marine should be charged as well with the full crime.
Either way, the marine should be charged as well with the full crime.
#9
Cajungal
Cajungal
^EXACTLY. If people insist on these kinds of meet-ups, they should meet or speak beforehand.
#10
ScytheRexx
ScytheRexx
This is one of those situations where the idiot was so jacked up with the idea of getting in a rape fantasy that he didn't think to confirm it was just a fantasy. He should have told "her" that he would not consider it unless he spoke with "her" in person, to realize that this is what she wanted. Even the phone can be forged because the marine would have just gotten another woman to do it, you have to meet the woman to know that you are consenting and it is just fantasy.
They fact he took the whole thing as it was, means he needs to get punished. He made a huge mistake, but that mistake physically and mentally scarred someone. That deserves punishment.
They fact he took the whole thing as it was, means he needs to get punished. He made a huge mistake, but that mistake physically and mentally scarred someone. That deserves punishment.
#11
AshburnerX
AshburnerX
If the guy who actually committed the rape has the documentation (I.E. chat logs with the "woman", emails, the original ad saved somewhere) then he can probably prove he acted in good faith and he should probably get off with probation, counseling, restitution of some sort, and probably a hefty dose of community service. I'd also keep him off the sex offender list: "deviancy" has been punished for far too long and all it's doing is pushing people further and further into the fringes. However... if he didn't have the foresight to save the information he had been given, then I really don't have any pity for this guy. It was his duty to prove that this was legit and he clearly didn't go far enough to do it.
The guy who set him up, however, should be punished to the full extent of the law. He's ruined two lives here and he should pay for it.
The guy who set him up, however, should be punished to the full extent of the law. He's ruined two lives here and he should pay for it.
#12
Chibibar
First thing came to my head when reading the OP was.... I hope he got a lawyer to draw up legal protection before doing the "fantasy" since rape IS a crime in all states.
Chibibar
I believe that he should have met with her in person, but I don't think the guy should be punish for it. To me, S&M can be as scarring like rape. I mean I am not much of being tied up and beaten (fantasy or not)This is one of those situations where the idiot was so jacked up with the idea of getting in a rape fantasy that he didn't think to confirm it was just a fantasy. He should have told "her" that he would not consider it unless he spoke with "her" in person, to realize that this is what she wanted. Even the phone can be forged because the marine would have just gotten another woman to do it, you have to meet the woman to know that you are consenting and it is just fantasy.
They fact he took the whole thing as it was, means he needs to get punished. He made a huge mistake, but that mistake physically and mentally scarred someone. That deserves punishment.
First thing came to my head when reading the OP was.... I hope he got a lawyer to draw up legal protection before doing the "fantasy" since rape IS a crime in all states.
#13
GasBandit
GasBandit
I disagree about the guy who actually did the deed. That you commit a heinous crime "accidentally" most often does not absolve you of your crime. Perhaps he should have a somewhat reduced prison sentence, but he raped a woman. He didn't have the common sense to verify the situation before he raped someone because he thought she had e-mailed him that it was OK. This was a failure of due diligence of Brobdingnagian proportions, and he should go down for it. The last thing we need is another technicality to get off genuine criminals.If the guy who actually committed the rape has the documentation (I.E. chat logs with the "woman", emails, the original ad saved somewhere) then he can probably prove he acted in good faith and he should probably get off with probation, counseling, restitution of some sort, and probably a hefty dose of community service. I'd also keep him off the sex offender list: "deviancy" has been punished for far too long and all it's doing is pushing people further and further into the fringes. However... if he didn't have the foresight to save the information he had been given, then I really don't have any pity for this guy. It was his duty to prove that this was legit and he clearly didn't go far enough to do it.
The guy who set him up, however, should be punished to the full extent of the law. He's ruined two lives here and he should pay for it.
#14
bhamv3
bhamv3
Basically, punish the guy for not knowing better?
I could get behind that, I guess. Drunk driving is pretty stupid too, and we punish people for that.
I could get behind that, I guess. Drunk driving is pretty stupid too, and we punish people for that.
#15
GasBandit
GasBandit
There's not knowing better, and then there's thinking that an uninvestigated e-mail makes rape OK. This guy didn't accidentally back over somebody he didn't know was behind his car.Basically, punish the guy for not knowing better?
I could get behind that, I guess. Drunk driving is pretty stupid too, and we punish people for that.
#16
The Lovely Boehner
The Lovely Boehner
He should get a sentence similar to manslaughter, but for rape.
#17
ScytheRexx
He didn't take the time to make sure the fantasy was legit, and instead took it from face value from e-mails. You can't get anymore impersonal then that. If he gets off then any little freak on Craigslist can pick a random house that they know has a single woman, say "I want someone to rape me as part of a fantasy here is the address", and then how is that girl going to feel when her back door is broken open and a guy is on top of her?
The guy needs to be punished. The level of punishment depends on the law, but he still needs to be punished.
ScytheRexx
Depends on the person. I have no issues with the more violent natures of sex, I can't even get into what my wife and I do, but the fact is that she didn't consent, and in those situations you need consent, you need to know the other person really wants it. The act of rape is when one party forces sex onto another without consent, regardless of how the rapists was considering it.I believe that he should have met with her in person, but I don't think the guy should be punish for it. To me, S&M can be as scarring like rape. I mean I am not much of being tied up and beaten (fantasy or not)
He didn't take the time to make sure the fantasy was legit, and instead took it from face value from e-mails. You can't get anymore impersonal then that. If he gets off then any little freak on Craigslist can pick a random house that they know has a single woman, say "I want someone to rape me as part of a fantasy here is the address", and then how is that girl going to feel when her back door is broken open and a guy is on top of her?
The guy needs to be punished. The level of punishment depends on the law, but he still needs to be punished.
#18
Tinwhistler
Tinwhistler
I have a hard time envisioning raping someone, and not knowing you're raping them, even if you started out believing you were acting out a rape fantasy. Real terror is not the same as fantasy play acting.
#19
Iaculus
Iaculus
Edit: What Charlie said. That's the best analogy I can see.
#20
Dave
Dave
The Marine should be charged for rape and for fraud as he portrayed himself as someone else. Once he serves his time he should be charged with conduct unbecoming a Marine and slammed in military court also. Let him do additional time in Leavenworth.
As to the guy who did it....He should also be charged with rape and here's why. Even though he thought it was consensual he still WANTED to commit the act of violence against a woman. It turns out he had a fantasy of tying and raping a woman and proved he was not above acting on these fantasies. Granted, he may not have ever acted on it without this virtual impetus, but he did in this case.
If MY WIFE wanted me to do this I don't think I could. If she talked me into it and she fought me like this woman must have fought him, I would have stopped immediately because I would have known something was seriously wrong. This guy not only wanted to do the act but showed he was willing to act it out even when he MUST have at some point realized that something was wrong.
As to the guy who did it....He should also be charged with rape and here's why. Even though he thought it was consensual he still WANTED to commit the act of violence against a woman. It turns out he had a fantasy of tying and raping a woman and proved he was not above acting on these fantasies. Granted, he may not have ever acted on it without this virtual impetus, but he did in this case.
If MY WIFE wanted me to do this I don't think I could. If she talked me into it and she fought me like this woman must have fought him, I would have stopped immediately because I would have known something was seriously wrong. This guy not only wanted to do the act but showed he was willing to act it out even when he MUST have at some point realized that something was wrong.
#21
GasBandit
GasBandit
Yeah, count me in for rapeslaughter, too, Charlie.
#22
Kitty Sinatra
Kitty Sinatra
ummm, guys, I don't think Dave would like y'all organizing a gang rape here.Yeah, count me in for rapeslaughter, too, Charlie.
#23
Tinwhistler
I'm not sold on the whole "thought police" angle. Lots of people have rape fantasies. Many people act out these kinds of things. I don't think the whole BDSM community, for instance, should be criminalized, because they perform activities that are legal when consensual, but which would be violent crimes if not consensual.
But I agree with you, Dave, that at some point, he must have known something was wrong. The article implies that the prosecution has evidence to that effect as well.
Tinwhistler
The Marine should be charged for rape and for fraud as he portrayed himself as someone else. Once he serves his time he should be charged with conduct unbecoming a Marine and slammed in military court also. Let him do additional time in Leavenworth.
As to the guy who did it....He should also be charged with rape and here's why. Even though he thought it was consensual he still WANTED to commit the act of violence against a woman. It turns out he had a fantasy of tying and raping a woman and proved he was not above acting on these fantasies. Granted, he may not have ever acted on it without this virtual impetus, but he did in this case.
If MY WIFE wanted me to do this I don't think I could. If she talked me into it and she fought me like this woman must have fought him, I would have stopped immediately because I would have known something was seriously wrong. This guy not only wanted to do the act but showed he was willing to act it out even when he MUST have at some point realized that something was wrong.
I'm not sold on the whole "thought police" angle. Lots of people have rape fantasies. Many people act out these kinds of things. I don't think the whole BDSM community, for instance, should be criminalized, because they perform activities that are legal when consensual, but which would be violent crimes if not consensual.
But I agree with you, Dave, that at some point, he must have known something was wrong. The article implies that the prosecution has evidence to that effect as well.
#24
GasBandit
That's too bad, we're comin' to YOUR HOUSE TONIGHT.
GasBandit
ummm, guys, I don't think Dave would like y'all organizing a gang rape here.[/QUOTE]Yeah, count me in for rapeslaughter, too, Charlie.
That's too bad, we're comin' to YOUR HOUSE TONIGHT.
#25
Kitty Sinatra
Kitty Sinatra
ah, well then. I'm definitely calling in sick for tonight's shift.
#26
Chibibar
Chibibar
ok let me revise. I read the OP but not the article, the actual act WAS committed (I thought it was the thought of it. It looks like he actually did it) that changes the whole game play.
The marine should be charge to the fullest of the law + military, the other guy is the accomplise and should be charge also (extent... I'm not sure)
The reason I said "not prosecute" before cause I have some friends who are into some really weird stuff. There are safe words and such, but there are acquaintance (from what I'm told and such) there are people who are into chocking, heavy bondage and even extreme role play. We are not talking about cosplay sex here we are talking about cop robber with full sex act (simulate rape and such) but those are done in role play and consent.
This is why if it is a stranger, I would have suggest a legal document and stuff like that. I can't do that kind of stuff. The idea of hurting my wife to that level is not within my limits.
The marine should be charge to the fullest of the law + military, the other guy is the accomplise and should be charge also (extent... I'm not sure)
The reason I said "not prosecute" before cause I have some friends who are into some really weird stuff. There are safe words and such, but there are acquaintance (from what I'm told and such) there are people who are into chocking, heavy bondage and even extreme role play. We are not talking about cosplay sex here we are talking about cop robber with full sex act (simulate rape and such) but those are done in role play and consent.
This is why if it is a stranger, I would have suggest a legal document and stuff like that. I can't do that kind of stuff. The idea of hurting my wife to that level is not within my limits.
#27
The Lovely Boehner
The Lovely Boehner
rapeslaughter just looks like rapes laughter to me. I think Carlos Mencia is guilty of that.
#28
ScytheRexx
ScytheRexx
This is going to be the big factor. There is a point even a fantasy deviant is going to realize something is wrong when she is doing nothing but kicking and screaming at him. Many deviants of that nature probably prefer reluctance scenarios, the stuff you would find in hentai, and in real rape you don't get those outcomes of seeming acceptance. It would be much more violent. He really has no excuse for it. He needs to get something more then a slap on the wrist.If MY WIFE wanted me to do this I don't think I could. If she talked me into it and she fought me like this woman must have fought him, I would have stopped immediately because I would have known something was seriously wrong. This guy not only wanted to do the act but showed he was willing to act it out even when he MUST have at some point realized that something was wrong.
#29
WolfOfOdin
WolfOfOdin
Ok.
The marine can be charged one of two ways, under military law if he's still active duty/not discharged or under federal criminal statutes by state prosecutors. Firstly, he is guilty of Conspiracy to commit or enable a Criminal Act, secondly Rape in the Second Degree, third Fraud and fourth possibly willful corruption of another/criminal negligence.
The man who actually did the deed..well...there's no manslaughter for rape. There's Rape in the 1st Degree and Rape in the Second Degree and then attempted rape. Rape in the 2nd would be the most likely cause, but he could plead not guilty due to mental incompetence, which is a tricky defense in and of itself. If they go lenient on him, it's going to be Breaking and Entering + Sexual Assault/Lew and Lascivious conduct. Harsher will be B+E as well as either Rape in the First or Second degree.
The marine can be charged one of two ways, under military law if he's still active duty/not discharged or under federal criminal statutes by state prosecutors. Firstly, he is guilty of Conspiracy to commit or enable a Criminal Act, secondly Rape in the Second Degree, third Fraud and fourth possibly willful corruption of another/criminal negligence.
The man who actually did the deed..well...there's no manslaughter for rape. There's Rape in the 1st Degree and Rape in the Second Degree and then attempted rape. Rape in the 2nd would be the most likely cause, but he could plead not guilty due to mental incompetence, which is a tricky defense in and of itself. If they go lenient on him, it's going to be Breaking and Entering + Sexual Assault/Lew and Lascivious conduct. Harsher will be B+E as well as either Rape in the First or Second degree.
#30
Adammon
Adammon
Lesson learned:
If a stranger asks you to rape them, get them to sign a contract first that they're not going to call the cops afterwards. And even if you did sign a contract, you would still go to jail if they called the cops. So don't 'rape' strangers!
Because rape is illegal. There's no such thing as consensual rape. A rape fantasy is a bit of an oxymoron because it implies participation and consent. Rape has neither. What is considered a 'rape fantasy' is more 'pushing the line on rough sex'.
While it's a shame he's gonna go to jail for this, he only has himself to blame.
If a stranger asks you to rape them, get them to sign a contract first that they're not going to call the cops afterwards. And even if you did sign a contract, you would still go to jail if they called the cops. So don't 'rape' strangers!
Because rape is illegal. There's no such thing as consensual rape. A rape fantasy is a bit of an oxymoron because it implies participation and consent. Rape has neither. What is considered a 'rape fantasy' is more 'pushing the line on rough sex'.
While it's a shame he's gonna go to jail for this, he only has himself to blame.
#31
Espy
Espy
Pretty much my position as well. I like the "manslaughter" idea though, however, from reading another report it sounds like he was... BRUTAL. So really, I agree with Dave, at a certain point he had to have known something was wrong but he did not relent. So in the end I don't care if he goes down for the whole thing but I think the Marine should as well.While it's a shame he's gonna go to jail for this, he only has himself to blame.
#32
ElJuski
ElJuski
They're called safety words. The ex boyfriend and his unwitting accomplice should be charged with rape.
#33
makare
makare
There was a case, in Britain I think, where this guy is hanging in a bar and meets like 2 or 3 other men. He invites them over to his house to have sex with his wife, saying that if she fights that's the way she likes it. So they do. In that case, which was years ago, the husband was actually there and still didn't get convicted of rape or attempted rape.
There was another case where a man did something like this but with personals in a magazine I think. He was charged with something but it wasn't rape.
I don't know how the marine guy could be charged with attempt to have forcible sex with someone because he didn't make that attempt. He set up the circumstances for it to happen. It's really unfair but I don't know what he can be charged with.
There was another case where a man did something like this but with personals in a magazine I think. He was charged with something but it wasn't rape.
I don't know how the marine guy could be charged with attempt to have forcible sex with someone because he didn't make that attempt. He set up the circumstances for it to happen. It's really unfair but I don't know what he can be charged with.
#34
Adammon
Adammon
What is the safety word is something "Blathering Blatherskite"? She'd never say it and if she did, he'd get his winky pinched off anyways when all the armor assembled.They're called safety words. The ex boyfriend and his unwitting accomplice should be charged with rape.
#35
phil
phil
The marine should get a full sentence and the guy should get some kind of punishment. I don't know what it would be though. I guess the best way to convey it would be that he should get, I think 60% of a rape sentence I guess. 50 for doing it, regardless of if it was an accident, and 10% for just being a dumbass.
I'm kind of wondering, like tin said, how did he not know that this was rape rape and not roleplaying rape? I mean, shouldn't he have noticed that she wasn't into this at all ?
I'm kind of wondering, like tin said, how did he not know that this was rape rape and not roleplaying rape? I mean, shouldn't he have noticed that she wasn't into this at all ?
#36
Espy
EDIT: Alright so here is another article I found that lays out the charges:http://www.trib.com/news/local/article_99865963-0de9-5aa3-8b8d-2b493d7b53f0.html (by the way, the article describes a little more what happened, so while not terribly explicit some might want to avoid it)
The Marine: Stipe, 27, has been charged in Natrona County Circuit Court with conspiracy to commit first-degree sexual assault.
The actual attacker: Ty Oliver McDowell, 26, has been charged with three counts of first-degree sexual assault, one count of aggravated kidnapping and one count of aggravated burglary.
Espy
I was hoping you would jump in. It's a shame they can't charge him with anything else... I think he's just as much or more to blame for this.There was a case, in Britain I think, where this guy is hanging in a bar and meets like 2 or 3 other men. He invites them over to his house to have sex with his wife, saying that if she fights that's the way she likes it. So they do. In that case, which was years ago, the husband was actually there and still didn't get convicted of rape or attempted rape.
There was another case where a man did something like this but with personals in a magazine I think. He was charged with something but it wasn't rape.
I don't know how the marine guy could be charged with attempt to have forcible sex with someone because he didn't make that attempt. He set up the circumstances for it to happen. It's really unfair but I don't know what he can be charged with.
EDIT: Alright so here is another article I found that lays out the charges:http://www.trib.com/news/local/article_99865963-0de9-5aa3-8b8d-2b493d7b53f0.html (by the way, the article describes a little more what happened, so while not terribly explicit some might want to avoid it)
The Marine: Stipe, 27, has been charged in Natrona County Circuit Court with conspiracy to commit first-degree sexual assault.
The actual attacker: Ty Oliver McDowell, 26, has been charged with three counts of first-degree sexual assault, one count of aggravated kidnapping and one count of aggravated burglary.
#37
Hailey Knight
Hailey Knight
Totally agree with Dave.The Marine should be charged for rape and for fraud as he portrayed himself as someone else. Once he serves his time he should be charged with conduct unbecoming a Marine and slammed in military court also. Let him do additional time in Leavenworth.
As to the guy who did it....He should also be charged with rape and here's why. Even though he thought it was consensual he still WANTED to commit the act of violence against a woman. It turns out he had a fantasy of tying and raping a woman and proved he was not above acting on these fantasies. Granted, he may not have ever acted on it without this virtual impetus, but he did in this case.
If MY WIFE wanted me to do this I don't think I could. If she talked me into it and she fought me like this woman must have fought him, I would have stopped immediately because I would have known something was seriously wrong. This guy not only wanted to do the act but showed he was willing to act it out even when he MUST have at some point realized that something was wrong.
#38
AshburnerX
AshburnerX
Reckless endangerment might fit. He knowingly set up a situation that might have ended up in his wife getting raped.
#39
Tinwhistler
Tinwhistler
The marine can still be charged with rape under the UCMJ.
Rape by using force:
"That the accused caused another person, who is of any age, to engage in a sexual act by using force against that other person. "
It doesn't say he has to do the penetrative act. Only that he has to have caused it to happen.
Rape by using force:
"That the accused caused another person, who is of any age, to engage in a sexual act by using force against that other person. "
It doesn't say he has to do the penetrative act. Only that he has to have caused it to happen.
#40
Kitty Sinatra
Kitty Sinatra
Your article says he's been charged with being an accomplice. I have no idea what that means specifically, though - is it "accomplice to rape" or some vaguer, more broad crime of "accomplice in wrongdoing of any sort"So there is nothing he can be charged with since he didn't commit the actual crime?
#41
makare
makare
Yeah that's about right. I am not an expert but I know he cant be charged with attempt because he didn't. Conspiracy is such a kitchen sink charge it's what they use when they have nothing else. And I don't know how he could have conspired because both parties have to intend, or at least know they are about to commit the crime and there is evidence to show that the actual rapist didn't have that intent (this case is so ridiculous.) What I'm saying is if he has any kind of competent legal representation he might even get out of the conspiracy charge.
I'm glad he is being charged with something but it is just so unfair.
I'm glad he is being charged with something but it is just so unfair.
#42
Espy
Yeah, sorry, I meant "something more".
Espy
Your article says he's been charged with being an accomplice. I have no idea what that means specifically, though - is it "accomplice to rape" or some vaguer, more broad crime of "accomplice in wrongdoing of any sort"[/QUOTE]So there is nothing he can be charged with since he didn't commit the actual crime?
Yeah, sorry, I meant "something more".
#43
Kitty Sinatra
---------- Post added at 07:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:37 PM ----------
Man, I'm being nitpicky here.
Kitty Sinatra
That looks like the accused would have to use force, though. I know you're reading it as "she was forced, so all involved are guilty of forcing her into a sexual act" but I don't think it reads like that.The marine can still be charged with rape under the UCMJ.
Rape by using force:
"That the accused caused another person, who is of any age, to engage in a sexual act by using force against that other person. "
It doesn't say he has to do the penetrative act. Only that he has to have caused it to happen.
---------- Post added at 07:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:37 PM ----------
Man, I'm being nitpicky here.
There may not be need to charge him with more. This vague "accomplice" charge, whatever it is may carry enough weight for decent punishment. And who knows, maybe he's been charged with several things anyway, and the article just encompassed it all with that vague "accomplice" thing.Yeah, sorry, I meant "something more".
#44
Espy
Espy
From the way Mak makes it sound ("What I'm saying is if he has any kind of competent legal representation he might even get out of the conspiracy charge.") it doesn't sound that way but I sure hope you are right. I don't see why he shouldn't got to jail for just as long as the other guy if not longer.[/COLOR]Man, I'm being nitpicky here.
There may not be need to charge him with more. This vague "accomplice" charge, whatever it is may carry enough weight for decent punishment. And who knows, maybe he's been charged with several things anyway, and the article just encompassed it all with that vague "accomplice" thing.Yeah, sorry, I meant "something more".
#45
Kitty Sinatra
Kitty Sinatra
what expert knowledge does makare have here? I thought Wolfodin's our sole legal eagle.
#46
Espy
Besides, THIS: View attachment 307
is our legal eagle!
Espy
I believe she's in law school.what expert knowledge does makare have here? I thought Wolfodin's our sole legal eagle.
Besides, THIS: View attachment 307
is our legal eagle!
Attachments
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10.4 KB Views: 332
#47
Kitty Sinatra
Kitty Sinatra
Oh. I thought she was in child care. Huh. Awesome for her, then. There's way more money in law.
#48
makare
makare
I do it all gruebeard. and I do it.. in style.
#49
Kitty Sinatra
Kitty Sinatra
You're now my hero. And I'm gonna assume that your style includes spandex and a cape.
#50
strawman
strawman
She said no.
He performed the act anyway.
It's rape, regardless of what brought them together.
If my wife said no, and I went ahead and forced her, she could still get me charged with rape. She could even sign a contract, accept all liability, with witnesses and a notary public, and I can still be charged and convicted of rape.
This man is certainly guilty of rape.
The man who set her up should also be charged as an accomplice - he set up the scenario where he knew she would be raped, and convinced someone else to perform the job. He was, in a sense, a sidekick of the rapist, finding a suitable prey. It will probably be a lessor charge, though.
They should both be listed on sex offender registries.
You don't violate someone in that way and expect to dodge the consequences.
Those who claim that the BDSM community proves that some acts are not criminal if performed with consent - that is only true if all parties to the act decide, before, during and after, that the act is consensual. They can change their mind at any time and press charges, even if at the time of the act it was consensual. The only thing protecting their partners is their own social contract, which is not in any way shape or form legally enforceable.
He performed the act anyway.
It's rape, regardless of what brought them together.
If my wife said no, and I went ahead and forced her, she could still get me charged with rape. She could even sign a contract, accept all liability, with witnesses and a notary public, and I can still be charged and convicted of rape.
This man is certainly guilty of rape.
The man who set her up should also be charged as an accomplice - he set up the scenario where he knew she would be raped, and convinced someone else to perform the job. He was, in a sense, a sidekick of the rapist, finding a suitable prey. It will probably be a lessor charge, though.
They should both be listed on sex offender registries.
You don't violate someone in that way and expect to dodge the consequences.
Those who claim that the BDSM community proves that some acts are not criminal if performed with consent - that is only true if all parties to the act decide, before, during and after, that the act is consensual. They can change their mind at any time and press charges, even if at the time of the act it was consensual. The only thing protecting their partners is their own social contract, which is not in any way shape or form legally enforceable.
#51
David
David
Pretty much everything Stein said said (except "AFTER the act", not sure what you meant by that... changing your mind AFTER everyone is finished and gets their pants back on would involve some quantum shit right there) plus Gas's point that someone who orders a hit is still a murderer. BOTH men should be charged to the fullest possible extent.
#52
Espy
Espy
Stien, do you think the Marine should be charged as much as the other man or should get lesser charges (not what he WILL get but what you think he should get)?
#53
Covar
Covar
This was an episode of Law and Order: SVU.
I was on the fence about this, but seeing other peoples posts swayed me to agreeing that rape charges should be brought all around.
I was on the fence about this, but seeing other peoples posts swayed me to agreeing that rape charges should be brought all around.
#54
Tinwhistler
That's definitely the defence I'd take if I were the marine: *I* didn't use force, I'm not guilty. If I were the prosecution, I'd say that he used force same as anyone who stood there and encouraged his military buddy to beat and rape a civilian in a war setting...guys get convicted in that scenario. And then let whoever had the better lawyering prevail.
Tinwhistler
That looks like the accused would have to use force, though. I know you're reading it as "she was forced, so all involved are guilty of forcing her into a sexual act" but I don't think it reads like that.[/QUOTE]The marine can still be charged with rape under the UCMJ.
Rape by using force:
"That the accused caused another person, who is of any age, to engage in a sexual act by using force against that other person. "
It doesn't say he has to do the penetrative act. Only that he has to have caused it to happen.
That's definitely the defence I'd take if I were the marine: *I* didn't use force, I'm not guilty. If I were the prosecution, I'd say that he used force same as anyone who stood there and encouraged his military buddy to beat and rape a civilian in a war setting...guys get convicted in that scenario. And then let whoever had the better lawyering prevail.
#55
phil
phil
Man, the more I think about this the more I can't decide fully on what I'd do if punishment was left up to me.
I mean, I guess without knowing exactly what the emails said and what exactly was allegedly agreed upon, I'd have to go with charging the guy who actually did it with full on rape. I mean, I feel a little sorry for the whole situation because it all comes back to the ex-boyfriend. If he hand't have orchestrated the whole thing then none of it would have happened. But even considering that, at the end of the day the dude did rape a woman. I mean, he's not completely blameless because at some point he really should have known. Had he stopped and realized what was really going on I'd probably feel different about it.
Something that I'm wondering is if they NEED to charge the guy with rape so that they can charge the ex with being an accomplice, and hopefully an equally heavy sentence. I mean, would charging him with conspiracy to commit be a lesser sentence?
Jeeze, the whole thing is just too fucked up really.
I mean, I guess without knowing exactly what the emails said and what exactly was allegedly agreed upon, I'd have to go with charging the guy who actually did it with full on rape. I mean, I feel a little sorry for the whole situation because it all comes back to the ex-boyfriend. If he hand't have orchestrated the whole thing then none of it would have happened. But even considering that, at the end of the day the dude did rape a woman. I mean, he's not completely blameless because at some point he really should have known. Had he stopped and realized what was really going on I'd probably feel different about it.
Something that I'm wondering is if they NEED to charge the guy with rape so that they can charge the ex with being an accomplice, and hopefully an equally heavy sentence. I mean, would charging him with conspiracy to commit be a lesser sentence?
Jeeze, the whole thing is just too fucked up really.
#56
Espy
Espy
You can't get away from the fact that the guy WAS manipulated on some level. It still doesn't excuse him from not finding out more information. With just a little more info he could have stopped this before it started.
#57
phil
I thought about it from a similar story to kind of help put it in perspective. What if the ex had given him a gun and said it was full of blanks, or even empty. Then he told the guy to pretend to shoot the victim to give her a scare or something because she liked jokes like that. Instead though, the gun was loaded with live rounds so instead the patsy guy just shot her in the head. It's the same kind of situation, a guy was tricked into committing a crime, but its kind of simplified because questionable sex practices are taken out of the equation. The guy in this situation committed murder, not manslaughter, in my mind because if this guy had done any kind of investigation into the situation or even just had the sense to not do something that's kind of fucked up to start with then the woman would be alive. Now, maybe throwing the book at him is a little harsh but certainly a harsh punishment is in order. I can also understand giving the patsy a harsher charge in exchange for giving the mastermind guy an equal charge and chance of punishment as a willing accomplice.
phil
True, I mean, if he was simply ignorant and manipulated then I feel bad for him sure. I think that that's just how the cookie crumbles sometimes though.You can't get away from the fact that the guy WAS manipulated on some level. It still doesn't excuse him from not finding out more information. With just a little more info he could have stopped this before it started.
I thought about it from a similar story to kind of help put it in perspective. What if the ex had given him a gun and said it was full of blanks, or even empty. Then he told the guy to pretend to shoot the victim to give her a scare or something because she liked jokes like that. Instead though, the gun was loaded with live rounds so instead the patsy guy just shot her in the head. It's the same kind of situation, a guy was tricked into committing a crime, but its kind of simplified because questionable sex practices are taken out of the equation. The guy in this situation committed murder, not manslaughter, in my mind because if this guy had done any kind of investigation into the situation or even just had the sense to not do something that's kind of fucked up to start with then the woman would be alive. Now, maybe throwing the book at him is a little harsh but certainly a harsh punishment is in order. I can also understand giving the patsy a harsher charge in exchange for giving the mastermind guy an equal charge and chance of punishment as a willing accomplice.
#58
Espy
Espy
See, I feel bad that he was manipulated BUT only to a certain extent. He should have done a HELL of a lot more research before going there.
#59
Cajungal
Cajungal
Reminds me of the short story "Rape Fantasies." The main character says something close to that.Lesson learned:
If a stranger asks you to rape them, get them to sign a contract first that they're not going to call the cops afterwards. And even if you did sign a contract, you would still go to jail if they called the cops. So don't 'rape' strangers!
Because rape is illegal. There's no such thing as consensual rape. A rape fantasy is a bit of an oxymoron because it implies participation and consent. Rape has neither. What is considered a 'rape fantasy' is more 'pushing the line on rough sex'.
While it's a shame he's gonna go to jail for this, he only has himself to blame.
#60
strawman
If I could choose and apply the laws then it would have a strong parallel to hiring a hit man who successfully killed your target, except within the realm of rape vs murder. The person who hired the hitman is charged with murder 1 - premeditated murder. Rape is simplified, but given that it was aggravated rape (ie, the marine 'ordered' the rape to be as bad as it was, rather than simply saying, "hey, go rape me" it was his intent to make her suffer significantly during the ordeal) then the modification of aggravation plus breaking and entering, etc should land the man who hired the 'hit' in the same hot water as if he had done it by his own hands.
But I don't know that the laws that cover accomplice to rape are as strong as accomplice to murder, or the various other related laws.
I suspect the case has gotten enough national attention that some places will be looking at their laws to see if something should change.
But chances are the marine won't get more than a few years, max, and he may well believe it's worth the price.
strawman
I don't know what the laws are.Stien, do you think the Marine should be charged as much as the other man or should get lesser charges (not what he WILL get but what you think he should get)?
If I could choose and apply the laws then it would have a strong parallel to hiring a hit man who successfully killed your target, except within the realm of rape vs murder. The person who hired the hitman is charged with murder 1 - premeditated murder. Rape is simplified, but given that it was aggravated rape (ie, the marine 'ordered' the rape to be as bad as it was, rather than simply saying, "hey, go rape me" it was his intent to make her suffer significantly during the ordeal) then the modification of aggravation plus breaking and entering, etc should land the man who hired the 'hit' in the same hot water as if he had done it by his own hands.
But I don't know that the laws that cover accomplice to rape are as strong as accomplice to murder, or the various other related laws.
I suspect the case has gotten enough national attention that some places will be looking at their laws to see if something should change.
But chances are the marine won't get more than a few years, max, and he may well believe it's worth the price.
#61
Math242
Math242
I think both of them should get max punishment for rape charges.
Even if it's roleplaying, the dude just should have fucking noticed she was not into it and something was iffy. As for the marine, let's just say i hope inmates like his tight army ass.
Even if it's roleplaying, the dude just should have fucking noticed she was not into it and something was iffy. As for the marine, let's just say i hope inmates like his tight army ass.
#62
@Li3n
@Li3n
The guy that set it up should be getting full charges...
Also, electrocuting someone's balls isn't torture, it's enhanced interrogation.
Wait, i'm pretty sure that if you can prove that it was consensual pressing charges after won't hold up. I recall seeing somewhere something about how a big percentage of reported rapes here where actually prostitutes charging clients that didn't pay after.Those who claim that the BDSM community proves that some acts are not criminal if performed with consent - that is only true if all parties to the act decide, before, during and after, that the act is consensual. They can change their mind at any time and press charges, even if at the time of the act it was consensual. The only thing protecting their partners is their own social contract, which is not in any way shape or form legally enforceable.
Also, electrocuting someone's balls isn't torture, it's enhanced interrogation.
#63
Tinwhistler
Sec. 22.06. CONSENT AS DEFENSE TO ASSAULTIVE CONDUCT. (a) The victim's effective consent or the actor's reasonable belief that the victim consented to the actor's conduct is a defense to prosecution
You can't retroactively revoke consent. If you let someone spank your ass, and then try to get them arrested later, and it can be shown to a jury's satisfaction that you consented, that guy will get off.
Of course, you can revoke consent at any time DURING, and that's just fine.
Tinwhistler
That's totally incorrect around these parts. In Texas, the assaultive charges specifically have a codified defense for consent.Those who claim that the BDSM community proves that some acts are not criminal if performed with consent - that is only true if all parties to the act decide, before, during and after, that the act is consensual. They can change their mind at any time and press charges, even if at the time of the act it was consensual. The only thing protecting their partners is their own social contract, which is not in any way shape or form legally enforceable.
Sec. 22.06. CONSENT AS DEFENSE TO ASSAULTIVE CONDUCT. (a) The victim's effective consent or the actor's reasonable belief that the victim consented to the actor's conduct is a defense to prosecution
You can't retroactively revoke consent. If you let someone spank your ass, and then try to get them arrested later, and it can be shown to a jury's satisfaction that you consented, that guy will get off.
Of course, you can revoke consent at any time DURING, and that's just fine.
#64
Chibibar
Sec. 22.06. CONSENT AS DEFENSE TO ASSAULTIVE CONDUCT. (a) The victim's effective consent or the actor's reasonable belief that the victim consented to the actor's conduct is a defense to prosecution
You can't retroactively revoke consent. If you let someone spank your ass, and then try to get them arrested later, and it can be shown to a jury's satisfaction that you consented, that guy will get off.
Of course, you can revoke consent at any time DURING, and that's just fine.[/QUOTE]
Hence the "safe word" right?
Chibibar
In Texas, the assaultive charges specifically have a codified defense for consent.Those who claim that the BDSM community proves that some acts are not criminal if performed with consent - that is only true if all parties to the act decide, before, during and after, that the act is consensual. They can change their mind at any time and press charges, even if at the time of the act it was consensual. The only thing protecting their partners is their own social contract, which is not in any way shape or form legally enforceable.
Sec. 22.06. CONSENT AS DEFENSE TO ASSAULTIVE CONDUCT. (a) The victim's effective consent or the actor's reasonable belief that the victim consented to the actor's conduct is a defense to prosecution
You can't retroactively revoke consent. If you let someone spank your ass, and then try to get them arrested later, and it can be shown to a jury's satisfaction that you consented, that guy will get off.
Of course, you can revoke consent at any time DURING, and that's just fine.[/QUOTE]
Hence the "safe word" right?
#65
ScytheRexx
Both need to get punished. I actually think the one that orchestrated the attack should get worst, since he not only premeditated the plan, conspired to have it carried out, pushed the fantasy rapist into the act through his e-mails, and made sure to probably word it in ways that makes the fantasy rapist to think she was just "playing along". I hope he does not walk away from this with only a slap on the wrist type of sentence.
ScytheRexx
The last part of that sentence made me chuckle. :laugh: Is that wrong of me?If you let someone spank your ass, and then try to get them arrested later, and it can be shown to a jury's satisfaction that you consented, that guy will get off.
Both need to get punished. I actually think the one that orchestrated the attack should get worst, since he not only premeditated the plan, conspired to have it carried out, pushed the fantasy rapist into the act through his e-mails, and made sure to probably word it in ways that makes the fantasy rapist to think she was just "playing along". I hope he does not walk away from this with only a slap on the wrist type of sentence.
#66
sixpackshaker
sixpackshaker
I hope the conspiracy charge carries the same punishment as the rapist. Like it was mentioned earlier, hiring a hit man that kills your target is still a capital crime. I think Texas just executed some one for hiring a hit man to kill their spouse.
#67
Math242
Math242
he has his ex raped, how could he walk away. that would really be a slap in the poor girl's face.
#68
ThatNickGuy
ThatNickGuy
This is why I have a policy in place for meeting someone in public, first, when meeting them off the 'net. Mind you, I've never done the casual encounter thing, but I still wouldn't have someone come over or go anywhere without meeting them somewhere, first. The dude ignored the #1 policy when meeting someone off the net.
Should he be punished? Eeee, I really, REALLY don't know. I wouldn't want to be the judge in this case.
Should he be punished? Eeee, I really, REALLY don't know. I wouldn't want to be the judge in this case.
#69
Math242
Math242
well he raped her. the line of defense: i thought she liked it is not gonna hold up.
His lawyer will try to have him look as a victim too but no jury or judge is going to show sympathy to some perv's cause.
His lawyer will try to have him look as a victim too but no jury or judge is going to show sympathy to some perv's cause.
#70
Adammon
Margaret Atwood, famous Canadian author. Nice!
Adammon
Reminds me of the short story "Rape Fantasies." The main character says something close to that.[/QUOTE]Lesson learned:
If a stranger asks you to rape them, get them to sign a contract first that they're not going to call the cops afterwards. And even if you did sign a contract, you would still go to jail if they called the cops. So don't 'rape' strangers!
Because rape is illegal. There's no such thing as consensual rape. A rape fantasy is a bit of an oxymoron because it implies participation and consent. Rape has neither. What is considered a 'rape fantasy' is more 'pushing the line on rough sex'.
While it's a shame he's gonna go to jail for this, he only has himself to blame.
Margaret Atwood, famous Canadian author. Nice!
#71
Chazwozel
Chazwozel
But that's why it's a fantasy. It's not real. This dude should have attempted to meet beforehand etc... Any kind of BDSM role-play stuff usually involves safety words so the other person stops if things are getting too rough. He should go to jail, if only because he's a dipshit.Lesson learned:
If a stranger asks you to rape them, get them to sign a contract first that they're not going to call the cops afterwards. And even if you did sign a contract, you would still go to jail if they called the cops. So don't 'rape' strangers!
Because rape is illegal. There's no such thing as consensual rape. A rape fantasy is a bit of an oxymoron because it implies participation and consent. Rape has neither. What is considered a 'rape fantasy' is more 'pushing the line on rough sex'.
While it's a shame he's gonna go to jail for this, he only has himself to blame.
#72
GasBandit
GasBandit
... so you don't accidentally rape them?... :wtf:This is why I have a policy in place for meeting someone in public, first
#73
Math242
Math242
damn right
#74
Kitty Sinatra
Seems like a good policy.
Kitty Sinatra
... so you don't accidentally rape them?... :wtf:[/QUOTE]This is why I have a policy in place for meeting someone in public, first
Seems like a good policy.
#75
makare
Yet another lesson learned the hard way.
makare
... so you don't accidentally rape them?... :wtf:[/QUOTE]This is why I have a policy in place for meeting someone in public, first
Yet another lesson learned the hard way.
#76
Chazwozel
Chazwozel
Your Honor, I have no idea how my penis ended up in that vagina.
#77
phil
phil
I think I saw a three stooges like that. Larry and Curly keep slipping on banana peels Mo keeps leaving out and end up double teaming this chick. When they go to court for it the judge had to throw the case out, least his courtroom be covered in more pies.
#78
GasBandit
.
GasBandit
#79
ThatNickGuy
...no. I just mean general safety and common sense when meeting a stranger from the internet.
ThatNickGuy
... so you don't accidentally rape them?... :wtf:[/QUOTE]This is why I have a policy in place for meeting someone in public, first
...no. I just mean general safety and common sense when meeting a stranger from the internet.
#80
Iaculus
...no. I just mean general safety and common sense when meeting a stranger from the internet.[/QUOTE]
There's a difference?
Iaculus
... so you don't accidentally rape them?... :wtf:[/QUOTE]This is why I have a policy in place for meeting someone in public, first
...no. I just mean general safety and common sense when meeting a stranger from the internet.[/QUOTE]
There's a difference?
#81
GasBandit
...no. I just mean general safety and common sense when meeting a stranger from the internet.[/QUOTE]
While a good idea, unfortunately even if the woman in question here also had that policy, it wouldn't have helped her in this case.
I'm also a little surprised the ex GF of a marine didn't have a gun. But maybe she didn't want to be reminded of the guy who eventually would arrange her rape.
GasBandit
... so you don't accidentally rape them?... :wtf:[/QUOTE]This is why I have a policy in place for meeting someone in public, first
...no. I just mean general safety and common sense when meeting a stranger from the internet.[/QUOTE]
While a good idea, unfortunately even if the woman in question here also had that policy, it wouldn't have helped her in this case.
I'm also a little surprised the ex GF of a marine didn't have a gun. But maybe she didn't want to be reminded of the guy who eventually would arrange her rape.
#82
Chibibar
...no. I just mean general safety and common sense when meeting a stranger from the internet.[/QUOTE]
While a good idea, unfortunately even if the woman in question here also had that policy, it wouldn't have helped her in this case.
I'm also a little surprised the ex GF of a marine didn't have a gun. But maybe she didn't want to be reminded of the guy who eventually would arrange her rape.[/QUOTE]
hmmm that would have been an interesting twist.
So if the woman had a gun and kill the "fantasy rapist" would the marine be charge of accessory to murder? If it was in Texas, she would be protected by castle law (the guy did break in and rape her or attempt. She does have the right to defend herself)
Chibibar
... so you don't accidentally rape them?... :wtf:[/QUOTE]This is why I have a policy in place for meeting someone in public, first
...no. I just mean general safety and common sense when meeting a stranger from the internet.[/QUOTE]
While a good idea, unfortunately even if the woman in question here also had that policy, it wouldn't have helped her in this case.
I'm also a little surprised the ex GF of a marine didn't have a gun. But maybe she didn't want to be reminded of the guy who eventually would arrange her rape.[/QUOTE]
hmmm that would have been an interesting twist.
So if the woman had a gun and kill the "fantasy rapist" would the marine be charge of accessory to murder? If it was in Texas, she would be protected by castle law (the guy did break in and rape her or attempt. She does have the right to defend herself)
#83
makare
...no. I just mean general safety and common sense when meeting a stranger from the internet.[/QUOTE]
While a good idea, unfortunately even if the woman in question here also had that policy, it wouldn't have helped her in this case.
I'm also a little surprised the ex GF of a marine didn't have a gun. But maybe she didn't want to be reminded of the guy who eventually would arrange her rape.[/QUOTE]
Why would a marine's ex have a gun? To defend herself from the marine?
makare
... so you don't accidentally rape them?... :wtf:[/QUOTE]This is why I have a policy in place for meeting someone in public, first
...no. I just mean general safety and common sense when meeting a stranger from the internet.[/QUOTE]
While a good idea, unfortunately even if the woman in question here also had that policy, it wouldn't have helped her in this case.
I'm also a little surprised the ex GF of a marine didn't have a gun. But maybe she didn't want to be reminded of the guy who eventually would arrange her rape.[/QUOTE]
Why would a marine's ex have a gun? To defend herself from the marine?
#84
Iaculus
...no. I just mean general safety and common sense when meeting a stranger from the internet.[/QUOTE]
While a good idea, unfortunately even if the woman in question here also had that policy, it wouldn't have helped her in this case.
I'm also a little surprised the ex GF of a marine didn't have a gun. But maybe she didn't want to be reminded of the guy who eventually would arrange her rape.[/QUOTE]
Why would a marine's ex have a gun? To defend herself from the marine?[/QUOTE]
Evidently necessary.
Iaculus
... so you don't accidentally rape them?... :wtf:[/QUOTE]This is why I have a policy in place for meeting someone in public, first
...no. I just mean general safety and common sense when meeting a stranger from the internet.[/QUOTE]
While a good idea, unfortunately even if the woman in question here also had that policy, it wouldn't have helped her in this case.
I'm also a little surprised the ex GF of a marine didn't have a gun. But maybe she didn't want to be reminded of the guy who eventually would arrange her rape.[/QUOTE]
Why would a marine's ex have a gun? To defend herself from the marine?[/QUOTE]
Evidently necessary.
#85
Espy
...no. I just mean general safety and common sense when meeting a stranger from the internet.[/QUOTE]
While a good idea, unfortunately even if the woman in question here also had that policy, it wouldn't have helped her in this case.
I'm also a little surprised the ex GF of a marine didn't have a gun. But maybe she didn't want to be reminded of the guy who eventually would arrange her rape.[/QUOTE]
Why would a marine's ex have a gun? To defend herself from the marine?[/QUOTE]
I guess it depends on his actions towards her previous to this. If he was this nuts who knows if he had already been harassing her or whatnot.
Espy
... so you don't accidentally rape them?... :wtf:[/QUOTE]This is why I have a policy in place for meeting someone in public, first
...no. I just mean general safety and common sense when meeting a stranger from the internet.[/QUOTE]
While a good idea, unfortunately even if the woman in question here also had that policy, it wouldn't have helped her in this case.
I'm also a little surprised the ex GF of a marine didn't have a gun. But maybe she didn't want to be reminded of the guy who eventually would arrange her rape.[/QUOTE]
Why would a marine's ex have a gun? To defend herself from the marine?[/QUOTE]
I guess it depends on his actions towards her previous to this. If he was this nuts who knows if he had already been harassing her or whatnot.
#86
makare
makare
You guys are missing the key part of what he said
he did not say the girlfriend of THE marine he said girlfriend of A marine. as in a marine's girlfriend would be expected to own a gun. That was what I was asking about.
This chick needed a gun AND restraining order and possibly the guts to make a preemptive strike on that douchebag.
he did not say the girlfriend of THE marine he said girlfriend of A marine. as in a marine's girlfriend would be expected to own a gun. That was what I was asking about.
This chick needed a gun AND restraining order and possibly the guts to make a preemptive strike on that douchebag.
#87
Iaculus
Iaculus
Oh, I saw that, but I couldn't resist the wisecrack. So it goes.You guys are missing the key part of what he said
he did not say the girlfriend of THE marine he said girlfriend of A marine. as in a marine's girlfriend would be expected to own a gun. That was what I was asking about.
This chick needed a gun AND restraining order and possibly the guts to make a preemptive strike on that douchebag.
#88
Philosopher B.
Philosopher B.
They should both get a shotgun blast to the tits.
(That's my new official answer to everything).
(That's my new official answer to everything).
#89
Green_Lantern
Green_Lantern
Hi, just to add something, not sure if it wasn't posted before.
I think the "actual rapist" should be charged with rape, even if at a lesser degree, I also think that the Marine should be charged with rape of his ex at highest degree possible (Wouldn't mind that much if it was bigger than the actual rapist).
Now this a new angle: The marine should be charged with "rape" of the actual rapist think about this, as far he is telling us, the guy never agreed with actually raping someone, so the marine tricked him in to commit a sex act without his consent, might not be the most common variation of rape, but still is a damn evil act, "actual rapist" life is now ruined because the marine manipulated him so. I am not, by any means, saying that the rapist is innocent, I am just saying that he can also considered a victim.
I am mostly telling this, because I really would like to see the marine to be sentenced as if he has raped both.
>.<
I think the "actual rapist" should be charged with rape, even if at a lesser degree, I also think that the Marine should be charged with rape of his ex at highest degree possible (Wouldn't mind that much if it was bigger than the actual rapist).
Now this a new angle: The marine should be charged with "rape" of the actual rapist think about this, as far he is telling us, the guy never agreed with actually raping someone, so the marine tricked him in to commit a sex act without his consent, might not be the most common variation of rape, but still is a damn evil act, "actual rapist" life is now ruined because the marine manipulated him so. I am not, by any means, saying that the rapist is innocent, I am just saying that he can also considered a victim.
I am mostly telling this, because I really would like to see the marine to be sentenced as if he has raped both.
>.<
#90
Chazwozel
Chazwozel
He meant that Marines are usually gun nuts and therefore own guns therefore their significant others also share this same interest. I will post that my cousin, a former Marine and someone who's quite knowledgeable about modern weapons, does not own a gun himself. I have a friend who's the ex wife of a marine; she does not own a gun. My wife's cousin's current girlfriend is the ex wife of a Marine. She does not own a gun. I've got two buddies and an ex girlfriend in the Air Force, none of them own guns. Being enlisted does not equal having to own a gun by some weird arbitrary logic.You guys are missing the key part of what he said
he did not say the girlfriend of THE marine he said girlfriend of A marine. as in a marine's girlfriend would be expected to own a gun. That was what I was asking about.
This chick needed a gun AND restraining order and possibly the guts to make a preemptive strike on that douchebag.
#91
WolfOfOdin
The thing is, the marine did not physical rape the woman in question. He cannot be charged with Rape in the First Degree. That requires him to have physically have done the act. As of the current statute, by causing Rape in the Third Person, the Marine would be liable to a fine of an unlimited amount, as well as a maximum sentence of 10 years in prison.
Now, obviously he is guilty of conspiracy to commit a criminal act as well, which as of United States V Shabani, adopts the common law principal wherein the fact that a conspiracy alone is proof of a criminal act, further compounded with the harm and damages done by the act in and of itself.
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=us&vol=513&page=10
I'll get back to you on the specifics of the fines and terms of imprisonment associated with Conspiracy to commit a criminal act.
Also, with the idea of precedent...yes, going very lenient or letting off the hook the manipulated party could in fact create a viable defense for new defendants to argue the same. Difficult, but doable with a good lawyer and a scapegoat with a bad past/connections to the defendant. It's a shitty thing, but there are obvious cues as to when someone doesn't want a thing to continue or at all. Sexual arousal does not excuse that and is not grounds for incompetence. If he's charged with Rape in the First, that's again, an unlimited fine as well as a sentence of possible life imprisonment
...And yes, I am a 2nd year law student...AND A MALE. HOW THE HELL DID YOU THINK I WAS WOMAN?!
WolfOfOdin
....Alright then.Hi, just to add something, not sure if it wasn't posted before.
I think the \\"actual rapist\\" should be charged with rape, even if at a lesser degree, I also think that the Marine should be charged with rape of his ex at highest degree possible (Wouldn't mind that much if it was bigger than the actual rapist).
Now this a new angle: The marine should be charged with \\"rape\\" of the actual rapist think about this, as far he is telling us, the guy never agreed with actually raping someone, so the marine tricked him in to commit a sex act without his consent, might not be the most common variation of rape, but still is a damn evil act, \\"actual rapist\\" life is now ruined because the marine manipulated him so. I am not, by any means, saying that the rapist is innocent, I am just saying that he can also considered a victim.
I am mostly telling this, because I really would like to see the marine to be sentenced as if he has raped both.
>.<
The thing is, the marine did not physical rape the woman in question. He cannot be charged with Rape in the First Degree. That requires him to have physically have done the act. As of the current statute, by causing Rape in the Third Person, the Marine would be liable to a fine of an unlimited amount, as well as a maximum sentence of 10 years in prison.
Now, obviously he is guilty of conspiracy to commit a criminal act as well, which as of United States V Shabani, adopts the common law principal wherein the fact that a conspiracy alone is proof of a criminal act, further compounded with the harm and damages done by the act in and of itself.
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=us&vol=513&page=10
I'll get back to you on the specifics of the fines and terms of imprisonment associated with Conspiracy to commit a criminal act.
Also, with the idea of precedent...yes, going very lenient or letting off the hook the manipulated party could in fact create a viable defense for new defendants to argue the same. Difficult, but doable with a good lawyer and a scapegoat with a bad past/connections to the defendant. It's a shitty thing, but there are obvious cues as to when someone doesn't want a thing to continue or at all. Sexual arousal does not excuse that and is not grounds for incompetence. If he's charged with Rape in the First, that's again, an unlimited fine as well as a sentence of possible life imprisonment
...And yes, I am a 2nd year law student...AND A MALE. HOW THE HELL DID YOU THINK I WAS WOMAN?!
#92
makare
If the rapist is telling the truth the only thing he conspired to do was to fulfill a fantasy, which is not a criminal act, that was his intent and to the best of his knowledge what he was doing. If he could prove that then I fail to see how he can be convicted of conspiracy. The marine manipulated the situation but since he didn't conspire with the rapist to actually plan a rape I dont see how he can be convicted of conspiracy either.
makare
I am the female law student.....Alright then.
The thing is, the marine did not physical rape the woman in question. He cannot be charged with Rape in the First Degree. That requires him to have physically have done the act. As of the current statute, by causing Rape in the Third Person, the Marine would be liable to a fine of an unlimited amount, as well as a maximum sentence of 10 years in prison.
Now, obviously he is guilty of conspiracy to commit a criminal act as well, which as of United States V Shabani, adopts the common law principal wherein the fact that a conspiracy alone is proof of a criminal act, further compounded with the harm and damages done by the act in and of itself.
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=us&vol=513&page=10
I'll get back to you on the specifics of the fines and terms of imprisonment associated with Conspiracy to commit a criminal act.
Also, with the idea of precedent...yes, going very lenient or letting off the hook the manipulated party could in fact create a viable defense for new defendants to argue the same. Difficult, but doable with a good lawyer and a scapegoat with a bad past/connections to the defendant. It's a shitty thing, but there are obvious cues as to when someone doesn't want a thing to continue or at all. Sexual arousal does not excuse that and is not grounds for incompetence. If he's charged with Rape in the First, that's again, an unlimited fine as well as a sentence of possible life imprisonment
...And yes, I am a 2nd year law student...AND A MALE. HOW THE HELL DID YOU THINK I WAS WOMAN?!
If the rapist is telling the truth the only thing he conspired to do was to fulfill a fantasy, which is not a criminal act, that was his intent and to the best of his knowledge what he was doing. If he could prove that then I fail to see how he can be convicted of conspiracy. The marine manipulated the situation but since he didn't conspire with the rapist to actually plan a rape I dont see how he can be convicted of conspiracy either.
#93
WolfOfOdin
WolfOfOdin
Ah, sorry misread the earlier post :O
Honestly Makere, I am going to assume conspiracy is going to be put on to the marine's charges to lengthen punishment, not the poor sap who raped the girl though. Prosecutors now a days have a habit of tossing what they can and seeing what sticks, at least in the stuff I've been forced to read (admittedly not as widespread as that statement may seem).
Would you be more comfortable slapping the marine with a variant of fraud?
Honestly Makere, I am going to assume conspiracy is going to be put on to the marine's charges to lengthen punishment, not the poor sap who raped the girl though. Prosecutors now a days have a habit of tossing what they can and seeing what sticks, at least in the stuff I've been forced to read (admittedly not as widespread as that statement may seem).
Would you be more comfortable slapping the marine with a variant of fraud?
#94
makare
makare
Like i said it is a kitchen sink charge, used when nothing else fits right. But frankly, charge him with whatever, charge him with it all! See what a jury can do with it. Nothing really just is going to happen in this situation, might as well do whatever can be done.Ah, sorry misread the earlier post :O
Honestly makare, I am going to assume conspiracy is going to be put on to the marine's charges to lengthen punishment, not the poor sap who raped the girl though. Prosecutors now a days have a habit of tossing what they can and seeing what sticks, at least in the stuff I've been forced to read (admittedly not as widespread as that statement may seem).
Would you be more comfortable slapping the marine with a variant of fraud?
#95
WolfOfOdin
WolfOfOdin
Yeah. He's a tricky case and I agree with you there. Rape in the third person's a definite fit. I could see fraud, false representation of a personage...hell, if you want to be REALLY creative, Conspiracy to Corrupt Public Morals would -technically- fit, since Craigslist is a periodical of sorts, and crime calls for a person or persons to seek to induce immoral behavior via a periodical or publication, but that's stretching that law to the damn limits.
#96
makare
makare
Yeah there are lots of things he can be charged with but none of them give that slight satisfaction of labeling him the raping bastard that he is. That's the problem.
#97
WolfOfOdin
WolfOfOdin
Heh, you could always throw him to the Corp and let them have their fun with him. Repeatedly. With live ordnance
#98
Tinwhistler
Tinwhistler
article 134 is the general UCMJ charge that he'd likely get stuck with. It's the catch-all when other charges don't quite fit.
"Though not specifically mentioned in this chapter, all disorders and neglects to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces, all conduct of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces, and crimes and offenses not capital, of which persons subject to this chapter may be guilty, shall be taken cognizance of by a general, special, or summary court-martial, according to the nature and degree of the offense, and shall be punished at the discretion of that court."
They'd likely give him a good long sentence on it.
"Though not specifically mentioned in this chapter, all disorders and neglects to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces, all conduct of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces, and crimes and offenses not capital, of which persons subject to this chapter may be guilty, shall be taken cognizance of by a general, special, or summary court-martial, according to the nature and degree of the offense, and shall be punished at the discretion of that court."
They'd likely give him a good long sentence on it.
#99
ThatNickGuy
ThatNickGuy
I'm not talking about her, I'm talking about him. If he had set up a meeting, or wouldn't do it unless meeting somewhere first, then this wouldn't have happened because she wouldn't have shown up. It sure as hell would've helped HER case if he set up a meeting beforehand instead of just jumping right into it.While a good idea, unfortunately even if the woman in question here also had that policy, it wouldn't have helped her in this case.
#100
Shannow
Shannow
Give the most that you can to the both of them under the law. Peroid. One raped a woman, whether he thought it was a fantasy or not. The other set it up. whatever the law states these two fuckers can get, give it to them.
#101
Chibibar
not saying that this is the case (it could who knows until more info are given)
I mean she could have set it up and trying to pin on her ex. Of course then the case would be totally different wouldn't it? I would assume the rapist (the guy who did the act) would be release since there was consent from HER at the time.
Chibibar
of course I hear stories that sometimes a woman did "give it up" but later call "rape" cause she didn't like it.Give the most that you can to the both of them under the law. Peroid. One raped a woman, whether he thought it was a fantasy or not. The other set it up. whatever the law states these two fuckers can get, give it to them.
not saying that this is the case (it could who knows until more info are given)
I mean she could have set it up and trying to pin on her ex. Of course then the case would be totally different wouldn't it? I would assume the rapist (the guy who did the act) would be release since there was consent from HER at the time.