Solar Panels

With the recent law passing in France regarding solar panels, it got me thinking, after probably one of the more miserable winters I've ever had with high heating costs, it might be time to invest in these.

Does anyone have any installed in their houses or know of anyone who does?
How reliable are they? What was the investment? Should we wait for next gens with better performances?
 
Should we wait for next gens with better performances?
No, because much like anything tech-related, there'll always be a new generation just in the horizon. Don't buy the very super latest newest of the new but horribly expensive, either.

Does anyone have any installed in their houses or know of anyone who does?
Half of my family and friends; I don't because I live in an apartment building.

How reliable are they?
Very. Belgium's been paving roofs with solar panels for about a decade now (heavily and heavily subsidized, that is), as I said, I know a lot of people who have them, and I've heard of fairly few who really had issues. One whose roof was blown off by a storm - obviously the solar panels were broken up and pretty much destroyed too. Nobody who's suffered serious technical damage. I can't say much about costs, because, you know, Belgium. Most were subsidized back 80% of their costs and got tax breaks for the power they reinvest in the system and all that, so it's not a fair comparison.

Also, think about which type you want to use. There's a lot of different technologies, with different aims, out there. From the fairly literal glass-box-with-tubes-of-water-to-give-you-hot-water types to the hyper-advanced versions. And don't forget that, certainly in Montréal, you'll have power to spare in summer and a shortage in winter. There are ways of storing power, but as anyone will tell you, they're neither cheap nor practical.
 
The Navy installed them on houses here. Originally it was just for solar water heating, but they recently installed more panels on our homes that were supposed to connect with HECO's power grid. We have seen no decrease in power costs, but the Navy controls our billing not HECO (it's a fucking racket all around) and I have no idea if they actually connected our panels into the grid. We have a good supply of hot water, though. When we buy we will have panels installed if the house doesn't have them already. It only makes sense here.
 

Dave

Staff member
Before you do this, @Jay, make sure you are allowed. There are places that the utility companies have a stranglehold on and solar is verboten.
 
If the only reason you are doing this is to offset heating costs in Winter, then you should be able to get by with one of the many air-heating versions that are out there (many of which are even DIY), rather than going with ones that generate electricity (which then has to be converted into heat). An added bonus would be that it might be harder for the utility to come after you for heating air since that's technically not their "turf."

--Patrick
 

figmentPez

Staff member
With the recent law passing in France regarding solar panels, it got me thinking, after probably one of the more miserable winters I've ever had with high heating costs, it might be time to invest in these.

Does anyone have any installed in their houses or know of anyone who does?
How reliable are they? What was the investment? Should we wait for next gens with better performances?
Geekbeat.tv did a really good series on installing solar panels. One of the hosts, John P., did a solar install on his own home, and I thought it was a pretty informative look at the subject.
 
Before you do this, @Jay, make sure you are allowed. There are places that the utility companies have a stranglehold on and solar is verboten.
100% allowed, heck there's 2 installers
in the industrial sector 1 KM from my house (like half a mile)
 
Solar has finally reached the break even point for even places like Michigan where you'll never get more than 40% of the panel's power due to the latitude and frequent cloud cover. Break even in this case means that in the panel's 20 year life time it will generate enough power to offset its own initial cost assuming about 10-15 cents per kilowatt hour utility power cost. Given that utility rates are only increasing, then if you're going to stay in that location for 10-20 years and you can afford to buy them, then in the long run you'll save money.

If you aren't going to stay there long, but you can show a definite savings on electrical bills, you can recover some of your costs when you sell (ie, it's a selling feature), but depending on the market it might not pay for itself.

The federal rebates are significant, and without them solar panels are really only break-even in sunny areas. If you're outside the US and you don't get subsidies or tax credits, then it might not be worth it yet.

All that being said, if you had $5,000 to spend on solar panels, but your house was poorly insulated, or had windows that are more than a few years old, or low efficiency heater/air conditioning/water heater, then you would save more money and reach break even more quickly by spending on bettering those situations.

Further, solar heating is cheaper and saves more energy than solar electricity, so even if the above is taken care of, it's worth looking at solar heating panels for water heating before you do solar electricity panels. Again, better bang for your buck.

Once you've decided to go with electric solar panels there are a lot of decisions to make. Unless you're spending 10's of thousands of dollars, you're not going to disconnect from the electrical grid (and you'd need a lot of space for that many panels and a huge battery bank).

Most installations are grid tie only, which means that as long as the grid is working, then your solar panels will generate power and offset your electric bill. If you're using less than they are producing they'll feed into the grid and your meter will run backwards, depending on your utility's rates. However, if the power goes out, your solar panels will sit idle - you can't use them without the grid because the inverter depends on the grid to work, and turns off as a safety feature.

If you have power outages frequently enough that you'd like to use the panels if the grid goes down, you can get a grid tie with offline capability. It'll require a transfer switch (as if you were installing a gas generator), and usually a small battery bank. Usually these systems are noticeably more expensive, so it's not worth doing unless you do have frequent outages.

Some people have outages so frequently and lengthy that they install full systems with big battery banks to act as backup even at night. These systems cost almost double a normal system due to the battery bank, and chances are it's not something worth considering for your situation.

The vast majority of systems installed today are grid tie only, with no possibility of usage during a power outage. If this is important to you, talk to your installer, and shop around. Break-even might be possible on this system, but if it uses batteries, they need yearly checkups and maintenance, and will have to be replaced occasionally even if not heavily used. Make sure you take this cost into account and ask your installer questions about it.

If you are doing the installation yourself and willing to shop around, you can save 1/3 to 1/2 the cost of the entire solar system, but it requires a good bit of expertise so connect with someone you know and trust who's done their own system. It's not rocket science, but you'll need to be comfortable with electrical skills, roofing skills (if you're mounting it to your roof), and putting wires through walls and so forth.

I can't speak towards reliability, I have no personal experience with them for the long term. Well built panels should last 20 years, and most come with decent warranties. I'd depend on that, and make sure your system has some amount of diagnostics or reporting so you can tell if there's a problem and have someone out to diagnose and fix it. There are no moving parts, so if you get good panels, have them professionally installed with a good warranty, you should have no problems.

The next generation is going to be cheaper, but not drastically more efficient. They can drop in price even more, so like anything the longer you wait, the cheaper they'll get. If you look at the trends for solar panel pricing:

http://cleantechnica.com/2014/09/04/solar-panel-cost-trends-10-charts/

You'll see that we're leveling off. Waiting a year probably isn't going to be a better choice than doing it now, but it's not guaranteed to be better now than in a year either. It's hard to tell where the 'knee' of the graph is while we're in the middle of it. The fact that companies in California and other sunny places are leasing solar systems to people for cheaper than their electric bill suggests that they're well past the knee for their sunny area. Chances are good we're right at the sweet spot in the northern latitudes. I know if I installed my own panels, my break-even would be in 9 years, even without federal subsidies.

So if you've got the cash and the desire, go for it. Just keep in mind that windows, insulation, high-efficiency heating, cooling and other appliances, and solar hot water systems are generally better bang for the buck if you haven't already tackled them.
 
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fade

Staff member
If the only reason you are doing this is to offset heating costs in Winter, then you should be able to get by with one of the many air-heating versions that are out there (many of which are even DIY), rather than going with ones that generate electricity (which then has to be converted into heat). An added bonus would be that it might be harder for the utility to come after you for heating air since that's technically not their "turf."

--Patrick

I can attest to this. Hippy parents. Way back in 1980, my dad built our house (as in with his own two hands), and installed DIY solar heating using the roof itself, ducts created using the rafters and sheet poly, a fan system, and roll insulation. It worked really well. Not sure if you're willing to go all Mother Earth News, and this was in SC where the winters do get cold, but not Canada cold.
 
I can attest to this. Hippy parents. Way back in 1980, my dad built our house (as in with his own two hands), and installed DIY solar heating using the roof itself, ducts created using the rafters and sheet poly, a fan system, and roll insulation. It worked really well. Not sure if you're willing to go all Mother Earth News, and this was in SC where the winters do get cold, but not Canada cold.
Back in the day, my father-in-law also built a passive solar house whose plans he found in Mother Earth News, and Kati lived in it for a number of years. How did you think I knew about its efficacy? :) They never completed the part where the collected heat was stored in the downstairs rock bed, but the attic was still a great place to hang your laundry, dry out your harvested peaches/walnuts, etc.

--Patrick
 

GasBandit

Staff member
Solar cells that turn atmospheric CO2 into burnable hydrocarbon fuel. This might go a long way to addressing a lot of the problems with solar energy (storage requiring batteries, transmission from creation to use over power lines, etc), and as a bonus, it tilts the environmentalist's favorite windmill by removing CO2 from the atmosphere.

Maybe not applicable to solar panels you put on your house, it might turn solar farms in the middle of nowhere into a more interesting proposition.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
You know, I kinda thought the prospect for UNLIMITED FREE ENERGY FOR THE FUTURE would've turned it into a more interesting proposition, but here we are.

--Patrick
In all things, TANSTAAFL.

I'm sure there's something they're not telling us that is keeping this thing from already ruling the world.
 
In all things, TANSTAAFL.
I'm sure there's something they're not telling us that is keeping this thing from already ruling the world.
Well yeah, first someone will have to (pay to) BUILD all those panels, hook 'em together into some kind of distribution network, find somewhere to put all the power generated that's not being used, figure out who's responsible for the whole mess, etc.

--Patrick
 

GasBandit

Staff member
Well yeah, first someone will have to (pay to) BUILD all those panels, hook 'em together into some kind of distribution network, find somewhere to put all the power generated that's not being used, figure out who's responsible for the whole mess, etc.

--Patrick
I mean more to the order of "oh and we didn't mention this, but the entire process gives off radiation that causes sterility in bonobos, and the resulting fuel is twice as unstable as nitroglycerine" or something.
 
I mean more to the order of "oh and we didn't mention this, but the entire process gives off radiation that causes sterility in bonobos, and the resulting fuel is twice as unstable as nitroglycerine" or something.
Well, it converts into syngas, which is not the most practical of fuels. You can make that into diesel, sure... But do you want a world where you're constantly pumping diesel fumes into the air on one side, only to recapture it on the other side? Smog wise and local pollution wise, it may still be preferable to use electricity for a lot of things.
That said, this could definitely be a game changer.
 
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