Speed Doesn't Kill, Bad Drivers Do

[Shegokigo]

I can't believe the amount of idiocy this thread has spawned within the first page. Seriously? Sexism and racism?

I thought HF was way above that.

 

[Gurpel]

I can't believe the amount of idiocy this thread has spawned within the first page. Seriously? Sexism and racism?

I thought HF was way above that.

hay, dont forget me, i was being ageist.

 

[Chazwozel]

No, what it's saying is that men drive faster and more aggresively and women tend to drive more slowly and less aggresively. While women are in more accidents per million miles driven, men's accidents are more dangerous and are far more often fatal.

Here's another great site:

http://reportingstatistics.blogspot.com ... s-and.html

I know it's a blog, but their links are wonderful.

Why would you be in more accidents per million miles driven if you drove better?

Men generally take more risks. ---> more fatal accidents per million miles
Women generally don't know how to drive. ---> More accidents per million miles

Just because you drive more slowly and less aggressively doesn't make you a good driver.

 

"Asians just off the boat"?


Wait, wait, wait! That deserves another.



(On reread I think he meant it sarcastically. Please mean that sarcastically.)

-- Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:59 am --

Interesting question, Chaz. Would I say women are better drivers than men because men cause more fatal accidents? Or would I say that men are better drivers because women get into more accidents?

Not sure. According to this, I'd rather get into an accident with a woman because I'm more likely to walk away from it.

 

[Shegokigo]

Men generally take more risks. ---> more fatal accidents per million miles
Women generally don't know how to drive. ---> More accidents per million miles

Wow, is that really what you want to go with as your argument? I mean wow.

Men die in most of their accidents.
Women have more but don't die.

Men are the better driver?

 

[Chazwozel]

Men generally take more risks. ---> more fatal accidents per million miles
Women generally don't know how to drive. ---> More accidents per million miles

Wow, is that really what you want to go with as your argument? I mean wow.

Men die in most of their accidents.
Women have more but don't die.

Men are the better driver?

I'd like to see the fatality rates of men and women drivers at high speed compared, and the low speed average accidents.

 

[Gurpel]

"Asians just off the boat"?


Wait, wait, wait! That deserves another.



(On reread I think he meant it sarcastically. Please mean that sarcastically.)

i was only being a little sarcastic.

being racist towards asians would be something like: those subhuman immigrants really piss me off

what i said was: people who have learned a fundamentally different style of driving will have a hard time learning the western one.

if that is racist somehow please inform me and i will edit my post.

EDIT: just for clarification, i edited my previous post. i had forgot about half a sentence. sorry if that made the post seem muddled.

 

[Shegokigo]

I'd like to see the fatality rates of men and women drivers at high speed compared, and the low speed average accidents.

Why? Neither should be driving at high speeds.

 

\"Asians just off the boat\"?


Wait, wait, wait! That deserves another.



(On reread I think he meant it sarcastically. Please mean that sarcastically.)

i was only being a little sarcastic.

being racist towards asians would be something like: those subhuman immigrants really piss me off

what i said was: people who have learned a fundamentally different style of driving will have a hard time learning the western one.

if that is racist somehow please inform me and i will edit my post.

Ah. I see. "Fresh off the boat" is a term used to denegrate immigrants since the early days of the US. Maybe I only know it because I'm older.

-- Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:08 am --

Reading the entry in Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fresh_off_the_boat) it seems it's lost some of its racist undertones. Guess I learned something today.

 

[strawman]

1. Higher speeds leave less room for driver error (ie, time to react to changing road conditions and other drivers)

1. Only if you don't know how to drive at high speed. If you can't, don't do it. Again not claiming 100% deathproof, but if you know how to handle a high speed situation, you're better off. Most people don't.

Practice and training can make one better able to react appropriately more quickly than someone who isn't adequately trained.

However, you still have LESS time to react at a higher speed than a lower speed no matter how able you are to handle high speed. The issue isn't how well you can handle your car, the issue is that by the time you've processed the visual information, and started instructing your muscles to move from the gas to the brake, you've gone further at higher speed than you've gone at lower speed.

2. Higher speeds result in greater injury and death when an accident does occur, regardless of driver error - further this is exponential, not linear.

2. Only if your car isn't made for it. A corvette at 150mph handles far better than a Honda Civic at 90mph. I'm not saying you can't die, but the risk is significantly lower when you drive a car made for speeding over a Ford P.O.S.

That's irrelevant.

You will experience nearly 2x the force going 45 in a corvette than going 35 in that same car.

You will experience nearly 2x the force going 45 in a pinto than going 35 in that same car.

It's simple physics.

Yes, different cars have different capability to decelerate the human body safely when they hit something, but within the same vehicle the deceleration force is still exponentially greater the faster you go.

So, while your caveats are informational, at the end of the day a higher speed is worse due to many factors, and these two are big reasons to keep the speed down.

-Adam

 

[Chazwozel]

"Asians just off the boat"?


Wait, wait, wait! That deserves another.



(On reread I think he meant it sarcastically. Please mean that sarcastically.)

-- Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:59 am --

Interesting question, Chaz. Would I say women are better drivers than men because men cause more fatal accidents? Or would I say that men are better drivers because women get into more accidents?

Not sure. According to this, I'd rather get into an accident with a woman because I'm more likely to walk away from it.

Well, thing is any accident can have detrimental effects and every accident is different. So, I'm the opposite. I'd rather be the passenger of a car of someone who knows how to react to the accident if it occurs, rather than someone who's prone to more accidents.

According to those facts, you'll less likely be in an accident if your male, but if you are you run a higher risk of that accident being fatal. If you're a woman your accident risk increases, but you run a lower risk of fatality. Would you rather ride with someone with a 30% chance to get into an accident with an 80% fatality rate if that accident occurs, or would you rather ride with someone with a 60% chance of accident and 50% fatality rate? My statistics are rusty but I run 24% chance of death with the male driver and 30% with the woman one in terms of accident probability and fatality probability.

I'm not trying to be sexist here, but it's a cultural thing here that men generally learn how to operate cars better. I can't help that we're all the product of a sexist society. I'm not saying that women can't learn how to drive, but society conditions them to drive the way they do. Am I claiming that all women suck as drivers? Hell no! Nor are all men wonderful drivers. I'm just reporting how the trend goes. Don't shoot the messenger.

Personal note: I have a male friend who's a semi-pro auto racer. I feel faaaaar safer as his passenger when he's doing crazy shit in his cars like gunning 140 mph over my other, female friend, who will occasionally nail a curb because (well I don't know why she does it), or fly around corners at 50 mph into the other lane because she doesn't understand the concept of centripetal force, friction, and basic driving maneuvers.

-- Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:47 pm --

1. Higher speeds leave less room for driver error (ie, time to react to changing road conditions and other drivers)

1. Only if you don't know how to drive at high speed. If you can't, don't do it. Again not claiming 100% deathproof, but if you know how to handle a high speed situation, you're better off. Most people don't.

Practice and training can make one better able to react appropriately more quickly than someone who isn't adequately trained.

However, you still have LESS time to react at a higher speed than a lower speed no matter how able you are to handle high speed. The issue isn't how well you can handle your car, the issue is that by the time you've processed the visual information, and started instructing your muscles to move from the gas to the brake, you've gone further at higher speed than you've gone at lower speed.

2. Higher speeds result in greater injury and death when an accident does occur, regardless of driver error - further this is exponential, not linear.

2. Only if your car isn't made for it. A corvette at 150mph handles far better than a Honda Civic at 90mph. I'm not saying you can't die, but the risk is significantly lower when you drive a car made for speeding over a Ford P.O.S.

That's irrelevant.

You will experience nearly 2x the force going 45 in a corvette than going 35 in that same car.

You will experience nearly 2x the force going 45 in a pinto than going 35 in that same car.

It's simple physics.

Yes, different cars have different capability to decelerate the human body safely when they hit something, but within the same vehicle the deceleration force is still exponentially greater the faster you go.

So, while your caveats are informational, at the end of the day a higher speed is worse due to many factors, and these two are big reasons to keep the speed down.

-Adam

I agree with you. No car is going to circumvent physics, but the fact of the matter is that you're more likely to survive a high speed crash in a Nascar grade racecar going 90 mph into a wall than a Geo Metro at the same speed. Simple absorption physics. i.e. If your car ain't made to go 100 mph, don't go 100 mph. This is something a lot of people ignore, especially those little wannabe race pro's with their crappy, loud Honda Civics.


Furthermore, the reason why sports cars are so much more expensive than sedans (for example) is because of the probability that the sports car owner WILL drive fast. This doesn't imply that sports cars are not safe, which is why I hate those fucking consumer report articles about Camaros, Mustangs, and Corvettes being the unsafest cars, and Volvo's ranking the highest. If people that bought Volvos drove at the speeds Corvettes are driven, you'd see a total reversal of accident to fatality ratios.


Man if you guys think I'm a cock about this....

I personally think anyone who can't do basic engine maintenance like change their own oil, replace an air filter shouldn't have a driver's license.

 

[Tress]

In psychology and cognitive science, confirmation bias is a tendency to search for or interpret new information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions and to irrationally avoid information and interpretations which contradict prior beliefs. Confirmation bias is a type of cognitive bias and represents an error of inductive inference, or as a form of selection bias toward confirmation of the hypothesis under study or disconfirmation of an alternative hypothesis.[1]

 

[sixpackshaker]

It is the combo of Speeder hitting a distracted driver changing lanes w/o looking. Or the distracted driver running the speeder off the road and not getting into accidents themselves.

 

[Chazwozel]

In psychology and cognitive science, confirmation bias is a tendency to search for or interpret new information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions and to irrationally avoid information and interpretations which contradict prior beliefs. Confirmation bias is a type of cognitive bias and represents an error of inductive inference, or as a form of selection bias toward confirmation of the hypothesis under study or disconfirmation of an alternative hypothesis.[1]

So the whole field of statistics falls under this, is what you're saying.

-- Thu Jul 30, 2009 2:08 pm --

It is the combo of Speeder hitting a distracted driver changing lanes w/o looking. Or the distracted driver running the speeder off the road and not getting into accidents themselves.

Well that's my point. A good driver that's speeding will know to look for soccer mom's on the right hand side and be cautious of them well before any situation like that occurs. A dumbass will fly past without a second thought.

 

[strawman]

If people that bought Volvos drove at the speeds Corvettes are driven, you'd see a total reversal of accident to fatality ratios.

Show me the data.

If you don't have a good source for this assertion, then take the crash data for everything over 80mph and give me a sports car vs regular car breakdown of fatalities.

-Adam

 

[Chazwozel]

If people that bought Volvos drove at the speeds Corvettes are driven, you'd see a total reversal of accident to fatality ratios.

Show me the data.

If you don't have a good source for this assertion, then take the crash data for everything over 80mph and give me a sports car vs regular car breakdown of fatalities.

-Adam

I can't find that data. The car companies only report things like Head Injury Criterion, chest deceleration, and femur load. These are done at 35mph into a wall. Average cars are going to fair better than sports cars.

Another problem is that there isn't basic crash test data from high end sports cars. They're are either not enough on the road, or they simply don't do the crash tests on them.

It's simple logic though. A Corvette and a stock Honda Civic crash at 90mph. The Corvette has better airbags, better seat belts, it's frame is designed better with better crumple zones. The chances for the Corvette driver to survive are slim but better than the Civic driver.

 

[Tress]

In psychology and cognitive science, confirmation bias is a tendency to search for or interpret new information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions and to irrationally avoid information and interpretations which contradict prior beliefs. Confirmation bias is a type of cognitive bias and represents an error of inductive inference, or as a form of selection bias toward confirmation of the hypothesis under study or disconfirmation of an alternative hypothesis.[1]

So the whole field of statistics falls under this, is what you're saying.

Of course! I'm certainly not making a comment on some retarded comments in this thread about race, gender, and age.

 

[Shegokigo]

I can't find that data. The car companies only report things like Head Injury Criterion, chest deceleration, and femur load. These are done at 35mph into a wall. Average cars are going to fair better than sports cars.

Another problem is that there isn't basic crash test data from high end sports cars. They're are either not enough on the road, or they simply don't do the crash tests on them.

It's simple logic though. A Corvette and a stock Honda Civic crash at 90mph. The Corvette has better airbags, better seat belts, it's frame is designed better with better crumple zones. The chances for the Corvette driver to survive are slim but better than the Civic driver.

So again, you're talking about personal experience and claiming to be a whole stated fact that is applicable to generalizations?

 

[Chazwozel]

In psychology and cognitive science, confirmation bias is a tendency to search for or interpret new information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions and to irrationally avoid information and interpretations which contradict prior beliefs. Confirmation bias is a type of cognitive bias and represents an error of inductive inference, or as a form of selection bias toward confirmation of the hypothesis under study or disconfirmation of an alternative hypothesis.[1]

So the whole field of statistics falls under this, is what you're saying.

Of course! I'm certainly not making a comment on some retarded comments in this thread about race, gender, and age.

Well race has nothing to do with anything.

Like I stated before, gender is more of a cultural thing, and I'm not saying that all women are bad drivers either...

Age is a very real stat. Teenagers are bad. Older (60+) can be very dangerous behind the wheel.

-- Thu Jul 30, 2009 2:33 pm --

I can't find that data. The car companies only report things like Head Injury Criterion, chest deceleration, and femur load. These are done at 35mph into a wall. Average cars are going to fair better than sports cars.

Another problem is that there isn't basic crash test data from high end sports cars. They're are either not enough on the road, or they simply don't do the crash tests on them.

It's simple logic though. A Corvette and a stock Honda Civic crash at 90mph. The Corvette has better airbags, better seat belts, it's frame is designed better with better crumple zones. The chances for the Corvette driver to survive are slim but better than the Civic driver.

So again, you're talking about personal experience and claiming to be a whole stated fact that is applicable to generalizations?

What personal experience? I've never been in a 90 mph crash, but if I was you bet your ass I'd want to be in a high end sports car over a Ford Focus.

 

[strawman]

If people that bought Volvos drove at the speeds Corvettes are driven, you'd see a total reversal of accident to fatality ratios.

Show me the data.

I can't find that data. The car companies only report things like Head Injury Criterion, chest deceleration, and femur load. These are done at 35mph into a wall. Average cars are going to fair better than sports cars.

Another problem is that there isn't basic crash test data from high end sports cars. They're are either not enough on the road, or they simply don't do the crash tests on them.

http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/QueryTool ... tYear.aspx

Over 30 years of crash data, including high speed crashes, sortable by speed of accident, make, and model.

Knock yourself out.

The Corvette has better airbags, better seat belts, it's frame is designed better with better crumple zones.

You obviously don't know the auto industry. On the off-chance that I'm wrong, go ahead and show me how you determined that the airbags, seat belts, and frame on a corvette are better in terms of safety than those same parts on the volvo.

-Adam

 

[Seraphyn]

Speeding is like the least dangerous thing I ever run into on the road. Driving too slow, staying in the wrong lane, frantically switching lanes, overtaking you then hit on the brake in front of you and such are at least a zillion times more dangerous then that guy that's going 220 on the left (fast) lane.

As for who is the most dangerous driver: Unfocused/distracted drivers are the most dangerous. Anytime you start doing anything that takes your mind/vision/attention off the road, you risk everyone's lives, no matter at what speed you're going at that moment.

 

[Chazwozel]

If people that bought Volvos drove at the speeds Corvettes are driven, you'd see a total reversal of accident to fatality ratios.

Show me the data.

I can't find that data. The car companies only report things like Head Injury Criterion, chest deceleration, and femur load. These are done at 35mph into a wall. Average cars are going to fair better than sports cars.

Another problem is that there isn't basic crash test data from high end sports cars. They're are either not enough on the road, or they simply don't do the crash tests on them.

http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/QueryTool ... tYear.aspx

Over 30 years of crash data, including high speed crashes, sortable by speed of accident, make, and model.

Knock yourself out.

The Corvette has better airbags, better seat belts, it's frame is designed better with better crumple zones.

You obviously don't know the auto industry. On the off-chance that I'm wrong, go ahead and show me how you determined that the airbags, seat belts, and frame on a corvette are better in terms of safety than those same parts on the volvo.

-Adam

You're telling me a 5 point Z06 harness is on par with a sedan lap belt? I'm not going to get into better brakes and crumple zones... The sheer fact that a Z06 has a lower center of gravity over say a Volvo sedan means it's less likely to roll over in an impact.

 

[sixpackshaker]

A Corvette is built like a power-boat. It is just glue and strands of glass. The plastic fantastic is not good in a high-speed crash. Even cheap Japanese cars are good in accidents, but they just don't have the mass of a Crown Vic.

The only car I'd want to be in during a high-speed crash is a Flag Ship Mercedes. I've seen footage of one sliding off the road at 100mph spinning, and flipping for many yards. Then when it came to a halt, the doors opened and the passengers walked out.

 

[Chazwozel]

A Corvette is built like a power-boat. It is just glue and strands of glass. The plastic fantastic is not good in a high-speed crash. Even cheap Japanese cars are good in accidents, but they just don't have the mass of a Crown Vic.

The only car I'd want to be in during a high-speed crash is a Flag Ship Mercedes. I've seen footage of one sliding off the road at 100mph spinning, and flipping for many yards. Then when it came to a halt, the doors opened and the passengers walked out.

No car exterior is made to survive a crash. The metal frame is what is required to maintain so, for example, in a front end crash the engine doesn't say hello to your torso. A vette has a solid aluminum alloy frame which is stronger than most low end sedans.

 

[figmentPez]

Bad drivers reduce traffic jams

I'm not sure I believe it. It's only been tested in simulation, of pedestrian traffic at that, and it makes no mention of taking accidents, and the flow problems they cause, into account.

 

[Chazwozel]

Tally on cell phones on my hour drive from work today.

At least 10 women drivers yakking away for over 10 minutes a piece.

I saw 1 guy with his phone.

Also witnessed a lady in the fast lane driving the speed limit then proceed to cut off the car in the right lane as she got over.

One of the cell phone chicks barreled past me on the right lane at over 90 mph and then cut off a truck on the left lane, all while chatting like it ain't no thing.

Glad I know how to drive, and fully stop at the offramp before inching forward. Some lady decided not to want to wait for the guy turning left to the onramp, goes to pass him at full speed and nearly clipped my front end sitting at the offramp stop sign.


Oh and I almost got rearended when the guy in front of me stopped short at the traffic light on my home. I had plenty of space to stop, bitch tailgating me didn't. Oh yeah, she was on her cell phone.... :slap:

This is pretty much a daily routine for me, and you people are still trying to convince me that women aren't the worse of the two sexes in terms of driving?

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

Yes because your personal experience isn't statistically significant in the least. I don't know how you don't see this as someone working in science.

 

I've been in 3 accidents in my life.

You really do have the "it happened to me therefore the world is like this" mentality down pat, don't you? Why people even bother responding to this bullshit I can't fathom.

 

[Frank]

You think police are heavily into Speed Traps because it's for the safety of the citizens? :blue:

Anytime I'm in the office, my Staff asks me why I'm not out writing tickets. Then when I go out and write tickets he gives me hell about not having my paperwork done.

I hate my job.

 

[Ravenpoe]

I have anecdotal evidence that contradicts EVERYONE in this thread.

So what now, bitches*?


*This is the non gender-specific variation of bitches

 

[Chazwozel]

Yes because your personal experience isn't statistically significant in the least. I don't know how you don't see this as someone working in science.

I see it every damn day. I wish I was making this up.

 

[drawn_inward]

Speed doesn't kill people. People kill people. :tongue:

 

[blotsfan]

People don't kill people. Candlejack kills pe

 

[strawman]

You're telling me a 5 point Z06 harness is on par with a sedan lap belt?

What 5 point harness? It's not even an option on that vehicle, or the highest level corvette, nevermind standard. Are you talking about aftermarket accessories?

The sheer fact that a Z06 has a lower center of gravity over say a Volvo sedan means it's less likely to roll over in an impact.

Ok, perhaps risk of rollover is lower. It's probably not significant in the mix, but if it is I'd like to see the data.

Have you crunched through the FARS system data yet? So far you haven't given me anything significant that proves your point, so I'm still scratching my head...

-Adam

 

[Chazwozel]

You're telling me a 5 point Z06 harness is on par with a sedan lap belt?

What 5 point harness? It's not even an option on that vehicle, or the highest level corvette, nevermind standard. Are you talking about aftermarket accessories?

The sheer fact that a Z06 has a lower center of gravity over say a Volvo sedan means it's less likely to roll over in an impact.

Ok, perhaps risk of rollover is lower. It's probably not significant in the mix, but if it is I'd like to see the data.

Have you crunched through the FARS system data yet? So far you haven't given me anything significant that proves your point, so I'm still scratching my head...

-Adam

I don't get how the website works, and I'm not spending an hour to make nice excel graphs for this thread. Being right on the internet isn't that important to me.

But what I gather is you're claiming that in a 80-90 mph crash a honda civic is safer than a Lamborghini. I say no. The Lamborghini will handle better, has better brakes, and control in that situation over a regular sedan. Speed doesn't kill, morons who drive cars that shouldn't be driven at high speed kill.