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SW character thingy...
#1
@Li3n
@Li3n
#2
Shegokigo
Shegokigo
#3
@Li3n
@Li3n
#4
Rob King
Rob King
#5
Dave
Dave
#6
JCM
JCM
We have a new forum? Damn, makes it 8 pvp-spawned forums Ive been in since the freeboards.
Its not my fault you are arguing that Luke had good character development
after your screen time and intention arguements failed, maybe you can try and argue its about Leia or something.
The prequel would've been better if Lucas had done what he did with V-VI, and let someone else direct and help with writing, because the reason why Vader's story was great was because it was told through other people, and thats what made Vader the most popular of all SW characters.
Instead in the prequel, we got him whining. I understand your point of view, and yes, the original trilogy can be seen as Luke's story (or Han Solo's, etc), but what Lucas originally planned, what was given to the Expanded Universe writers and what we got with the prequel was 6 movies chronicling the rise, fall and redemption of Anakin.
What, I cant share your obsession?@Li3n said:
My suggestion, watch the movies, maybe its been too long that you havent watched them and are counting several scenes as just two, or you are confusing Vader with The Emperor, who only had a few scene.@Li3n said:
But of course its episode 4-6 of a 6-part movie showing the rise and fall of Han Solo, right? My bad.Lian said:
Its not my fault you are arguing that Luke had good character development
after your screen time and intention arguements failed, maybe you can try and argue its about Leia or something.
Yeah, a retcon that was in his first script, expanded Universe bible and etc, I said, its a fanboy's world, feel free to interpret it your way, or imagine retcons where there none, after all, creators cant control people's interpretation.Lian said:
The prequel would've been better if Lucas had done what he did with V-VI, and let someone else direct and help with writing, because the reason why Vader's story was great was because it was told through other people, and thats what made Vader the most popular of all SW characters.
Instead in the prequel, we got him whining. I understand your point of view, and yes, the original trilogy can be seen as Luke's story (or Han Solo's, etc), but what Lucas originally planned, what was given to the Expanded Universe writers and what we got with the prequel was 6 movies chronicling the rise, fall and redemption of Anakin.
#7
JCM
JCM
#8
@Li3n
@Li3n
My 2 left feet disagree...
Lucas has been on record millions of times about how Luke had that whole monomyth thing going, it's even on wikipedia on the monomyth page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monomyth#George_Lucas_and_Star_Wars
I mean 2-3 scenes where Vader actually has some development besides "he's badass and can choke you with his mind", not 2-3 scenes in total in the movie...
See, that's the whole thing, without ep. 1-3 you wouldn't even think of making the argument that it's all about Vader... and as i pointed out, having prequels wasn't the plan from the get-go at all: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Adventures_of_the_Starkiller,_Episode_I:_The_Star_Wars , no matter how many times Lucas says it or how many EU books that came after the 1st film (now known as Ep.4) have to say the fact remains that one the the intermediate drafts was called: Adventures of the Starkiller, Episode I: The Star Wars
i never said Luke had GOOD development, but that he had development... whether it was good or bad is rather immaterial.Its not my fault you are arguing that Luke had good character development
Lucas has been on record millions of times about how Luke had that whole monomyth thing going, it's even on wikipedia on the monomyth page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monomyth#George_Lucas_and_Star_Wars
Except that it wasn't... the character named Annikin in there was way closer to how Luke turned out then how Vader did... and Vader WAS IN THE DAMNED THING AS A ANTAGONIST TO ANNIKIN. Read the link dammit.
At least we can agree on that...
#9
@Li3n
@Li3n
#10
ElJuski
ElJuski
#11
ElJuski
ElJuski
#12
Shegokigo
Shegokigo
Except this isn't PVP spawned in the least. If anything, it's Theatre Hopper spawned.
#13
@Li3n
@Li3n
#14
JCM
JCM
#15
@Li3n
@Li3n
#16
JCM
JCM
So a long copypasta of strawman after your screentime arguement, not enough development, and then ITS ONLY A MONOMYTH! seems a bit confusing.
Do stick to the topic. [
]
"Star Wars" as in EpIV was like Indiana Jones, V and VI were like Ocean´s Eleven or the first Xmen, with many main characters. And EpI-III turned it all into just one long narrative about Vader.
Yes, some people will stay stuck in the past (heck, like the Marvel threads on Bucky is DEAD!!) but just like Bucky is alive, the two Star Wars trilogies are all about Vader.
The second article doesnt even work, so again, lets not confuse "Star Wars" as in ep IV with the trilogy.
Do stick to the topic. [
]I said he was just a protagonist. Just like EpV-VI is NOT about Luke, its not only about Vader, but about 4 characters which the film chronicles.
And thats exactly where we disagree. You are stuck with EpIV, which was about Luke, in which Lucas didnt think he´d get to do any sequels, yet had a 9-movie layout, with the complete trilogy, in which Luke ended up becoming just one protagonist, and Han Solo, Leia and Vader were pushed foward as equally important main characters.
"Star Wars" as in EpIV was like Indiana Jones, V and VI were like Ocean´s Eleven or the first Xmen, with many main characters. And EpI-III turned it all into just one long narrative about Vader.
Yes, some people will stay stuck in the past (heck, like the Marvel threads on Bucky is DEAD!!) but just like Bucky is alive, the two Star Wars trilogies are all about Vader.
Nothing about "its a story about Luke!!!" there.... "Star Wars" as in monomyth was the movie which is now called a New Hope.
The second article doesnt even work, so again, lets not confuse "Star Wars" as in ep IV with the trilogy.
#17
ElJuski
ElJuski
#18
Shegokigo
Shegokigo
#19
JCM
JCM
#20
Calleja
Calleja
Hey guys what is going on in he-- 
#21
Andromache
Andromache
#22
Calleja
Calleja
#23
Bubble181
Bubble181
#24
@Li3n
@Li3n
#25
ElJuski
ElJuski
#26
JCM
JCM
Of course you dont care, specially with the terrible Harry Potter example (Harry Potter gets 90% of screentime, Luke barely makes a third in ep V-VI) because its exactly whats wrong with "Its ALL ABOUT LUKE", Ep IV was about Luke, with ep V and VI it became about the whole group, with I-II it became about Vader. Again-
Luke is basically a walkthough ste-by-step the of monomyth model for the kids, but ep V and VI pushed forth Leia, Han Solo and Vader, who had rather complex relations and history that ran away from the traditional hero model (smuggler who wants to get money + girl, rincess who doesnt need to be rescued and instead fights, evil lord who betrays his master and redeems himslelf), so its as idiotic to say that the trilogy is all about Luke just because SWIV was about him, just as it is to say that he as better development than Vader, or that screen time decides what makes one a protagonist.
Star Wars isnt a monomyth, but a story in which a monomyth, along with other classic mythology stories patterns, are told. Ep IV, and only ep IV, was all about Luke.
For dummies, one could say ep 4 was like The Hobbit, the whole story follows just Bilbo, with the odd chapter talking about other characters-
But by ep V-VI it turned into this, many main characters, a fleshed out world, and equal screentime for the main characters including Frodo-
But hey, ITS ALL ABOUT FRODO! Because the Hobbit was all about Bilbo.[]
Luke now is just another Obi-Wan, who carries Vader´s story along.
"For crying out loud", who will I believe, the creator, who in interviews said over and over he wanted 9 films, but then gave Timothy Zahn the right to do post-film canon stories, who kept "epIV" in the first Star Wars, and who for decades prohibited any extented Universe story about Vader´s past as he still wanted to film it, or you?
Cmon, the creator (plus shitloads of interviews, the Extended Universe gidelines created in the late 70´s), or a trol who has now taken to adhominems? I´ll take George Lucas, thank you.
Really L3an, let it go, you pathetic attempt at ad-hominems after trying to tell us that Star Wars is what you want it to be, not what Lucas has said for decades, makes you look like a pathetic anonymous troll in Luke Skywalker Jammies who writes Luke fanfiction. See how nice it is when someone else uses ad hominems and attacks you instead of the arguement?
[/COLOR]
-Screentime?
-Luke has more development?
-Ep IV was all a monomyth, so that means ep V-VI must only be about Luke?
-That George Lucas, after naming it ep IV, prohibiting writers from touching Vader´s past for 3 decades because he wanted to do it, is wrong and for some reason, because Lian says so, it must be all about Luke, even through epV-VI changed it to about the group, and EpI-III turned the original trilogy into a continuation of Vader´s story?
But now that he´s shown his true colors and taken to ad-hominems, well, I might as well have fun with the troll, who by the might of the Luke Jammies, will reply, as Troll depend on that.
Awaiting life-support post in 3... 2.... 1...
Luke is basically a walkthough ste-by-step the of monomyth model for the kids, but ep V and VI pushed forth Leia, Han Solo and Vader, who had rather complex relations and history that ran away from the traditional hero model (smuggler who wants to get money + girl, rincess who doesnt need to be rescued and instead fights, evil lord who betrays his master and redeems himslelf), so its as idiotic to say that the trilogy is all about Luke just because SWIV was about him, just as it is to say that he as better development than Vader, or that screen time decides what makes one a protagonist.
Star Wars isnt a monomyth, but a story in which a monomyth, along with other classic mythology stories patterns, are told. Ep IV, and only ep IV, was all about Luke.
For dummies, one could say ep 4 was like The Hobbit, the whole story follows just Bilbo, with the odd chapter talking about other characters-
But by ep V-VI it turned into this, many main characters, a fleshed out world, and equal screentime for the main characters including Frodo-
But hey, ITS ALL ABOUT FRODO! Because the Hobbit was all about Bilbo.[
]Newsflash. Its 2009. I-III were made, ep V-VI, so the original trilogy just became another movie with many protagonists at V-VI, and just a chapter of the Vader story with I-III.
Luke now is just another Obi-Wan, who carries Vader´s story along.
Who Lucas decided to kill and put in a previous movie?
"For crying out loud", who will I believe, the creator, who in interviews said over and over he wanted 9 films, but then gave Timothy Zahn the right to do post-film canon stories, who kept "epIV" in the first Star Wars, and who for decades prohibited any extented Universe story about Vader´s past as he still wanted to film it, or you?
Cmon, the creator (plus shitloads of interviews, the Extended Universe gidelines created in the late 70´s), or a trol who has now taken to adhominems? I´ll take George Lucas, thank you.
Yep, like I said, there will come the adhominem from the fanboy.
Really L3an, let it go, you pathetic attempt at ad-hominems after trying to tell us that Star Wars is what you want it to be, not what Lucas has said for decades, makes you look like a pathetic anonymous troll in Luke Skywalker Jammies who writes Luke fanfiction. See how nice it is when someone else uses ad hominems and attacks you instead of the arguement?
[/COLOR]
Nah, he was burying himself.. I mean-
-Screentime?
-Luke has more development?
-Ep IV was all a monomyth, so that means ep V-VI must only be about Luke?
-That George Lucas, after naming it ep IV, prohibiting writers from touching Vader´s past for 3 decades because he wanted to do it, is wrong and for some reason, because Lian says so, it must be all about Luke, even through epV-VI changed it to about the group, and EpI-III turned the original trilogy into a continuation of Vader´s story?
But now that he´s shown his true colors and taken to ad-hominems, well, I might as well have fun with the troll, who by the might of the Luke Jammies, will reply, as Troll depend on that.
Awaiting life-support post in 3... 2.... 1...
#27
ElJuski
ElJuski
#28
JCM
Episode IV = like Conan (since you cant understand "The Hobbit" was used as an example of a story about 1 character, its about Luke, ony Luke
Episode V and VI
But if you cant learn just one fucking language enough to read it, and are still stuck to childhood memories of epIV, well, go ahead and make up some other arguement for me to laugh at, fanboy. And do learn simple English.
JCM
God, nobody is saying epIV is the Hobbit? God, cant you read?
Episode IV = like Conan (since you cant understand "The Hobbit" was used as an example of a story about 1 character, its about Luke, ony Luke
Episode V and VI
But if you cant learn just one fucking language enough to read it, and are still stuck to childhood memories of epIV, well, go ahead and make up some other arguement for me to laugh at, fanboy. And do learn simple English.
#29
ThatNickGuy
ThatNickGuy
#30
Calleja
Calleja
#31
JCM
JCM
#32
Cuyval Dar
Cuyval Dar
#33
Calleja
Calleja
#34
Cuyval Dar
Cuyval Dar
#35
JCM
JCM
Theres a New Hitchiker´s book? 
#36
Calleja
Calleja
#37
JCM
JCM
#38
@Li3n
Dude, we had this conversation already... to be an ad hominem it need to tkae the form of "YOU'RE STUPID, SO YOU MUST BE WRONG"... if someone says "you're wrong for this reasons, and also stupid" it's rude, but not a fallacy. Also, you fail at sarcasm...
As for the rest... ever heard of Captain Nemo... he too died during a story about someone else, and he had way more moments in the story then Vader... but his was also not the main story being told.
And also, Bilbo was in LotR, and had an ending and some development in the books too... are you saying that if we take the Hobbit with LotR then it's all about Bilbo's story? Or Gandalfs (who pretty much Xanatos Gambited the whole thing)
Yup, Vader's narative ties the 6 movies, but that doesn't change the fact that the OT was about Luke and it shows even if you take all 6 together. (btw, i know you don't care, but that's been my argument all along, that's why i posted the straw man stuff).
As for Lucas saying that he wanted 9 films in the 70's... i'll believe it when i see it... (Empire was 80's, you could at least placed it then, i could see him getting the idea after Vader was set in stone as Luke's father), aka post a source.
But hey, Word of God overwrites logic and arguments, right? Greedo shot first and any actual roll of film depicting it differently is fanboysm...
The first drafts pretty much show that the 9 films (as in with prequels) thing was not the original idea (but that sequels where, as i recall even the rought draft left the ending open for more), but of course it could have morphed into it even before Ep. 4 came out, but if you want to prove that you need sources going back to at leat '79.
Also, if the're where 9 movies planned, and Vader died in Jedi, how was the whole thing supposed to be about him anyhow?!
EDIT: Oh, and as always, i enjoyed the "you'reusing ad hominems = your argument must be wrong" stuff... it's not like that's a fallacy or anything...
@Li3n
Of course you dont care, specially with the terrible Harry Potter example (Harry Potter gets 90% of screentime, Luke barely makes a third in ep V-VI) because its exactly whats wrong with \"Its ALL ABOUT LUKE\", Ep IV was about Luke, with ep V and VI it became about the whole group, with I-II it became about Vader. Again-
Luke is basically a walkthough ste-by-step the of monomyth model for the kids, but ep V and VI pushed forth Leia, Han Solo and Vader, who had rather complex relations and history that ran away from the traditional hero model (smuggler who wants to get money + girl, rincess who doesnt need to be rescued and instead fights, evil lord who betrays his master and redeems himslelf), so its as idiotic to say that the trilogy is all about Luke just because SWIV was about him, just as it is to say that he as better development than Vader, or that screen time decides what makes one a protagonist.
Star Wars isnt a monomyth, but a story in which a monomyth, along with other classic mythology stories patterns, are told. Ep IV, and only ep IV, was all about Luke.
For dummies, one could say ep 4 was like The Hobbit, the whole story follows just Bilbo, with the odd chapter talking about other characters-
But by ep V-VI it turned into this, many main characters, a fleshed out world, and equal screentime for the main characters including Frodo-
But hey, ITS ALL ABOUT FRODO! Because the Hobbit was all about Bilbo.[
Newsflash. Its 2009. I-III were made, ep V-VI, so the original trilogy just became another movie with many protagonists at V-VI, and just a chapter of the Vader story with I-III.
Luke now is just another Obi-Wan, who carries Vader´s story along.Who Lucas decided to kill and put in a previous movie?
\"For crying out loud\", who will I believe, the creator, who in interviews said over and over he wanted 9 films, but then gave Timothy Zahn the right to do post-film canon stories, who kept \"epIV\" in the first Star Wars, and who for decades prohibited any extented Universe story about Vader´s past as he still wanted to film it, or you?
Cmon, the creator (plus shitloads of interviews, the Extended Universe gidelines created in the late 70´s), or a trol who has now taken to adhominems? I´ll take George Lucas, thank you.
Yep, like I said, there will come the adhominem from the fanboy.
Really L3an, let it go, you pathetic attempt at ad-hominems after trying to tell us that Star Wars is what you want it to be, not what Lucas has said for decades, makes you look like a pathetic anonymous troll in Luke Skywalker Jammies who writes Luke fanfiction. See how nice it is when someone else uses ad hominems and attacks you instead of the arguement?
[/COLOR]Nah, he was burying himself.. I mean-
-Screentime?
-Luke has more development?
-Ep IV was all a monomyth, so that means ep V-VI must only be about Luke?
-That George Lucas, after naming it ep IV, prohibiting writers from touching Vader´s past for 3 decades because he wanted to do it, is wrong and for some reason, because Lian says so, it must be all about Luke, even through epV-VI changed it to about the group, and EpI-III turned the original trilogy into a continuation of Vader´s story?
But now that he´s shown his true colors and taken to ad-hominems, well, I might as well have fun with the troll, who by the might of the Luke Jammies, will reply, as Troll depend on that.
Awaiting life-support post in 3... 2.... 1...
Dude, we had this conversation already... to be an ad hominem it need to tkae the form of "YOU'RE STUPID, SO YOU MUST BE WRONG"... if someone says "you're wrong for this reasons, and also stupid" it's rude, but not a fallacy. Also, you fail at sarcasm...
As for the rest... ever heard of Captain Nemo... he too died during a story about someone else, and he had way more moments in the story then Vader... but his was also not the main story being told.
And also, Bilbo was in LotR, and had an ending and some development in the books too... are you saying that if we take the Hobbit with LotR then it's all about Bilbo's story? Or Gandalfs (who pretty much Xanatos Gambited the whole thing)
Yup, Vader's narative ties the 6 movies, but that doesn't change the fact that the OT was about Luke and it shows even if you take all 6 together. (btw, i know you don't care, but that's been my argument all along, that's why i posted the straw man stuff).
As for Lucas saying that he wanted 9 films in the 70's... i'll believe it when i see it... (Empire was 80's, you could at least placed it then, i could see him getting the idea after Vader was set in stone as Luke's father), aka post a source.
But hey, Word of God overwrites logic and arguments, right? Greedo shot first and any actual roll of film depicting it differently is fanboysm...
The first drafts pretty much show that the 9 films (as in with prequels) thing was not the original idea (but that sequels where, as i recall even the rought draft left the ending open for more), but of course it could have morphed into it even before Ep. 4 came out, but if you want to prove that you need sources going back to at leat '79.
Also, if the're where 9 movies planned, and Vader died in Jedi, how was the whole thing supposed to be about him anyhow?!
EDIT: Oh, and as always, i enjoyed the "you'reusing ad hominems = your argument must be wrong" stuff... it's not like that's a fallacy or anything...
#39
@Li3n
@Li3n
#40
JCM
JCM
:eyeroll:
Yep, just like I said the reply would be
Oh, and stupid, I just mentioned that Vader´s story was NOT TOLD in EU, I know you know nothing about SW, but trying to pass off your bad memory as EU is lame than your "Luke has better development" arguement.
Sorry it contradicts your childhood memories.
Star Wars/EpIV was all about Luke. Ep V and VI made it like Lord of the rings, a narrative about many characters, NOT a central character. While some may fantasize of Star Wars being a Luke: the Jedi movie I-III ala Conan, no matter how much you bitch about Lucas, the original trilogy isnt about HIM, but about THEM. Heck, look at how the movies were sold-
Note how its all about Luke. Remember "the Hobbit"? It was all about Bilbo Baggins.
Now lets move on and see how Lucas sold ep V and V?
See how Luke is just another character? Now, I´d be glad to shove down your throat comparison to films with a main character, like Indiana Jones, Conan or the Bourne trilogy, but even after not getting it for two threads and you taking it to ad-hominems, I still have faith in your intelligence.
Again, Luke isnt the main character, but a main character in the OT, just like frodo is in LOTR. And with epI-III, its all about Vader.
Yep, just like I said the reply would be
Awww, wasnt that your idiotic arguement? And you are still with Alzheimer´s and cant remember anything of Vader beyond two scenes?
Oh, and stupid, I just mentioned that Vader´s story was NOT TOLD in EU, I know you know nothing about SW, but trying to pass off your bad memory as EU is lame than your "Luke has better development" arguement.
He planned to tell Vader´s story in the early drafts, then officialized it with his 79 rule of "no EU stories on VAder, because he was going to tell it himself.
Sorry it contradicts your childhood memories.
No book>game canon rule, and pretty much everything´s canocity can be know over at the Star Wars database.
Thats again where you fail, over and over.
Star Wars/EpIV was all about Luke. Ep V and VI made it like Lord of the rings, a narrative about many characters, NOT a central character. While some may fantasize of Star Wars being a Luke: the Jedi movie I-III ala Conan, no matter how much you bitch about Lucas, the original trilogy isnt about HIM, but about THEM. Heck, look at how the movies were sold-
Note how its all about Luke. Remember "the Hobbit"? It was all about Bilbo Baggins.
Now lets move on and see how Lucas sold ep V and V?
See how Luke is just another character? Now, I´d be glad to shove down your throat comparison to films with a main character, like Indiana Jones, Conan or the Bourne trilogy, but even after not getting it for two threads and you taking it to ad-hominems, I still have faith in your intelligence.
Again, Luke isnt the main character, but a main character in the OT, just like frodo is in LOTR. And with epI-III, its all about Vader.
#41
@Li3n
I also never repeated over and over that Luke's development isn't (necessarily - as that's opinion) better as the point was that he was some, which you seemed to think he didn't.
And are you saying that pre-Ep.1-3 there where no EU Vader stories?! Or did you just assume i was refering to the story covered in Ep.1-3?!
Also, as my childhood took place during and a short while after communism i actually didn't get to see SW until the late 90's, and even then i don't think i saw any of the movie in their entirety until talk of the new ones came about...
Remember the first one? Han had the whole "doubting the force mumbo-jumbo" and the returning to help the rebels moments and everything, are you actually saying that doesn't qualify like the stuff from the next 2 ones does?
Having a developed cast doesn't mean the film isn't about the central character anymore...
But you know what, i'm willing to take the movie being about the whole cast instead of about Vader... [/STRIKE]
So the movies are about THEM and not Vader.... it's good for you to admit it...
And being the principle protagonist is not unheard of... aka of the main cast his is the story that takes precedence... and Luke most certainly qualifies, even if you think that that only happens when the story takes place in a vacuum with only NPCs next to the protagonist.
@Li3n
Yes, it nice how you're self-reinforcing how you're right based on vague expectations and misinterpretations of what i said.
Yes, my memory is so bad that i seem to think that because the name got changed from Annikin to Luke while the story itself stayed the same they are 2 different things... i must be delusional.
I also never repeated over and over that Luke's development isn't (necessarily - as that's opinion) better as the point was that he was some, which you seemed to think he didn't.
And are you saying that pre-Ep.1-3 there where no EU Vader stories?! Or did you just assume i was refering to the story covered in Ep.1-3?!
Oh right it's only Films vs Films+EU... everything else gets sorted on an individual basis, what a giant fail... i should give up my forum badge right now.
Also, as my childhood took place during and a short while after communism i actually didn't get to see SW until the late 90's, and even then i don't think i saw any of the movie in their entirety until talk of the new ones came about...
[STRIKE]How the sequels where sold is down to exactly what i said about peopel responding to Vader and Han etc. from the first one... people liked them so they where used more in the advertisments, and maybe even the film (yeah, i for one will not be counting to see how much more time they get compared to ep.4).
Remember the first one? Han had the whole "doubting the force mumbo-jumbo" and the returning to help the rebels moments and everything, are you actually saying that doesn't qualify like the stuff from the next 2 ones does?
Having a developed cast doesn't mean the film isn't about the central character anymore...
But you know what, i'm willing to take the movie being about the whole cast instead of about Vader... [/STRIKE]
So the movies are about THEM and not Vader.... it's good for you to admit it...
The fact that you ignore the dwarfs is contemptible... ELF-LOVER.Note how its all about Luke. Remember \"the Hobbit\"? It was all about Bilbo Baggins.
See how Luke is just another character? Now, I´d be glad to shove down your throat comparison to films with a main character, like Indiana Jones, Conan or the Bourne trilogy, but even after not getting it for two threads and you taking it to ad-hominems, I still have faith in your intelligence.
Again, Luke isnt the main character, but a main character in the OT, just like frodo is in LOTR. And with epI-III, its all about Vader.
And being the principle protagonist is not unheard of... aka of the main cast his is the story that takes precedence... and Luke most certainly qualifies, even if you think that that only happens when the story takes place in a vacuum with only NPCs next to the protagonist.
#42
JCM
I really love how you argue all over the place to run away from a)your failed arguements, and b) the fact that you were wrong about being Luke being the main character.
Oh, and George didnt allow pre-prequel, so I´d love for you to find me one pre-SW story where we see Anakin´s story being told, not that you´ll ever be able to find one and wll just post anther thread of more SW fanboys bitching on small details, and NO ANAKIN.
As I said over and over-
Again, Luke isnt the main character, but a main character in the OT, just like frodo is in LOTR. And with epI-III, its all about Vader.
and
Newsflash. Its 2009. ep V-VI were made, so the original trilogy just became another movie with many protagonists at V-VI, and just a chapter of the Vader story with I-III.
The SW films are now just Vader´s saga. Unless the Luke fanboy entitlement is more imortant than the writer, marketing materials and the movies itself.
JCM
I really love how you argue all over the place to run away from a)your failed arguements, and b) the fact that you were wrong about being Luke being the main character.
Oh, and George didnt allow pre-prequel, so I´d love for you to find me one pre-SW story where we see Anakin´s story being told, not that you´ll ever be able to find one and wll just post anther thread of more SW fanboys bitching on small details, and NO ANAKIN.
Hurray, you finally learned to read.
As I said over and over-
Again, Luke isnt the main character, but a main character in the OT, just like frodo is in LOTR. And with epI-III, its all about Vader.
and
Newsflash. Its 2009. ep V-VI were made, so the original trilogy just became another movie with many protagonists at V-VI, and just a chapter of the Vader story with I-III.
The SW films are now just Vader´s saga. Unless the Luke fanboy entitlement is more imortant than the writer, marketing materials and the movies itself.
#43
@Li3n
And do try to remember, no one is actually saying that Vader isn't a big part of the link between the prequels and the OT or that his story didn't matter, but that it isn't the main story of the OT like you originally claimed, not until Lucas does a "Greedo shot first" special Vader edition so his "true vision" can be seen...
@Li3n
I'd go look for the description of the fallacy, but you'll just skip it like the last time (something about moving the goalposts i believe + the straw man thing you've been having since whenever).
I really love how you argue all over the place to run away from a)your failed arguements, and b) the fact that you were wrong about being Luke being the main character.
Oh, and George didnt allow pre-prequel, so I´d love for you to find me one pre-SW story where we see Anakin´s story being told, not that you´ll ever be able to find one and wll just post anther thread of more SW fanboys bitching on small details, and NO ANAKIN.
I'm sorry but no, you don't get to have it both ways... either the prequels made the whole 6 movies Vader's saga, and thus the OT is Luke's saga because the first film was about him (like the prequels where about Vader), or they're not after New Hope and then the whole 6 movies aren't about Vader either...
And do try to remember, no one is actually saying that Vader isn't a big part of the link between the prequels and the OT or that his story didn't matter, but that it isn't the main story of the OT like you originally claimed, not until Lucas does a "Greedo shot first" special Vader edition so his "true vision" can be seen...
#44
GeneralOrder24
GeneralOrder24
#45
@Li3n
@Li3n
#46
@Li3n
@Li3n
#47
JCM
But hey, if fallacy is what Luke fanboys call "Jesus I was stupid", feel free to call it so. Again, Lucas, since 79, BEFORE ep V and VI, put Vader´s past as Anakin, and future, off-limits for the EU
A fanboy saying "its Luke´s saga!" vs the marketing for SW (which Luke was just another character), the movies themselves (where othe characters where as central as Luke), the creator saying before its about many mythologies being retold thorugh many characters, and now saying with the prequel its all about Vader.
Who do we go, the movies, marketing and the creator, or a Luke fanboy? I´ll take option number 1, thank you.
---------- Post added at 03:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:54 PM ----------
JCM
Whine about fallacies [/quote]Why are wyou whining about fallacies, I say Lucas always wanted to tell the rest of the Vader story, and you idiotically post a thread that has NOTHING to do with Vader´s past as Anakin.
I really love how you argue all over the place to run away from a)your failed arguements, and b) the fact that you were wrong about being Luke being the main character.
Oh, and George didnt allow pre-prequel, so I´d love for you to find me one pre-SW story where we see Anakin´s story being told, not that you´ll ever be able to find one and wll just post anther thread of more SW fanboys bitching on small details, and NO ANAKIN.
But hey, if fallacy is what Luke fanboys call "Jesus I was stupid", feel free to call it so. Again, Lucas, since 79, BEFORE ep V and VI, put Vader´s past as Anakin, and future, off-limits for the EU
I'm sorry but no, you don't get to have it both ways... either the prequels made the whole 6 movies Vader's saga, and thus the OT is Luke's saga, and yes, I own Star Wars and can overule the movies, creator and marketing.[/QUOTE]Riiight.
A fanboy saying "its Luke´s saga!" vs the marketing for SW (which Luke was just another character), the movies themselves (where othe characters where as central as Luke), the creator saying before its about many mythologies being retold thorugh many characters, and now saying with the prequel its all about Vader.
Who do we go, the movies, marketing and the creator, or a Luke fanboy? I´ll take option number 1, thank you.
---------- Post added at 03:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:54 PM ----------
As valid as saying only Luke was the main character, but sorry, as much as I ignore fanboy opinion like the Luke fanboy who says he is above Lucas´ own words, marketing and the movies in deciding what the movie is about, I dont read fanfiction, unless its canon and has been called "the phantom menace"
#48
@Li3n
And anyhow, by '79 the script for Ep.5 must have been final for it to be released in 1980, and any story published without knowing about th twist wouldn't be canon, and one done knowing about it would have spoiled it so it makes sense without this being planned as Vaders story from the get go aka before ep. 4 came out (which is what i argued against).
As for his future... he dies in Ep.6, what else is there?
Even the most minor character can be central to a story... doesn't mean that the story id about them.
Cpt. Nemo helping the castaways in The Mysterious Island was the main driving force behind the story, but it wasn't his story by a long shot.
You mean the creator that said he wanted 9 films but is now saying that the 6 films are all that was supposed to be? Lucas has changed his mind plenty of times since the OT aired.
See here: http://www.starwars.com/theclonewars/news/news20080317.html
And i quote:
Do you think you'd have other people continue the Star Wars saga past Episode VI or turn some of the other material into films?
But there's no story past Episode VI, there's just no story. It's a certain story about Anakin Skywalker and once Anakin Skywalker dies, that's kind of the end of the story. There is no story about Luke Skywalker, I mean apart from the books. But there's three worlds: There's my world that I made up, there's the licensing world that's the books, the comics, all that kind of stuff, the games, which is their world, and then there's the fans' world, which is also very rich in imagination, but they don't always mesh. All I'm in charge of is my world. I can't be in charge of those other people's world, because I can't keep up with it.
And look how this 1976 book was marketed:
Vader has centre stage because he looks cool, as this was the novelisation of Ep. 4's script, and only has minor differences to the film you say was only about Luke.
Marketing is the last way one should judge a product on, even cracked agrees:
And another thing from the official website, the article about Vader: http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/darthvader/
Behind the Scenes The name of Darth Vader was first introduced as a tall, grim-looking general in the rough draft of Star Wars. It was not until the second draft that the character of Vader appeared in a recognizable form. Vader's fearsome face-mask came about almost by accident. Concept artist Ralph McQuarrie designed the mask since the early drafts had Vader board Leia's captured starship by crossing the vacuum of space, a circumstance that necessitated a breathing apparatus. Little did McQuarrie realize that the reason for the mask was more deep-rooted than that.
Vader at first played a limited role in the expanded universe of Star Wars publishing, since the editors of those spin-off works did not know what the films would have in store. As such, Vader tended to plot through proxy villains -- like the House of Tagge nobles or Lumiya that appeared in the early Marvel series. The 1978 novel, Splinter of the Mind's Eye, took the uncharacteristic step of pitting Vader directly against Luke, resulting in their first depicted lightsaber duel. Vader's arm is severed in that battle, and it's only with the hindsight provided by the prequel trilogy do readers now realize it was an artificial arm to begin with.
There's also this interesting tid-bit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splinter_of_the_Mind%27s_Eye#History
So to me it's pretty obvious that Vader was not originally as what he became during the course of the development of the OT.
I'M NOT SAYING THAT LUCAS DIDN'T RETCON IT WITH THE PREQUELS (maybe even got the idea some time during the OT), OR THAT WE SHOULDN'T ACKNOWLEDGE THAT RETCON, but that it was a retcon, thus saying that originally the OT was about Luke going from plucky farmboy to Jedi badass. Vader just happened to be the break out character, like Fonzy... and then he jumped a shark using a pod racer.
Yes, Lucas's word is canon when it comes to the SWU, but not reality... and all signs point to the fact that originally the plan was just to tell the story of Luke (even if his name was different in some early drafts).
Oh, and about the previous brouhaha about what levels there are, the canon levels as per the guy who runs the canon database: http://blogs.starwars.com/holocron/4
Are the entries in the Holocron sorted as canonical & non-canonical? Are there various degrees of "officialness"?
The database does indeed have a canon field for each individual entry and for sources, though the canon level of the entry would overide the canon level of the source since it factors in other sources associated with that entry. When determining canon levels for individual entries, anything in the films and from George Lucas (including unpublished internal notes that we might receive from him or from the film production department) is considered "G" canon. A new level we recently added is "T" canon, comprising of the theatrical release of The Clone Wars and the television series, in addition to the planned live-action television series. Next we have what we call continuity "C" canon which is pretty much everything else from the EU. There is a secondary "S" continuity classification used for older published materials created when there was less attention to making everything in the EU fit with everything else in the EU. But, if it is referenced in something else it becomes "C". Similarly, any "C" canon entry that makes it into the films can become "G" canon. Lastly there is non-continuity "N" which we rarely use except in the case of a blatant contradiction. Any contradictions that arise are dealt with on a case-by-case basis.
Dude, you need to go to the hardware store and buy a new sarcasm detector... sheesh.... my mistake for being humorous, this debate here is too much SERIOUS BUSINESS for that.
@Li3n
Again, got any sources for that?
And anyhow, by '79 the script for Ep.5 must have been final for it to be released in 1980, and any story published without knowing about th twist wouldn't be canon, and one done knowing about it would have spoiled it so it makes sense without this being planned as Vaders story from the get go aka before ep. 4 came out (which is what i argued against).
As for his future... he dies in Ep.6, what else is there?
Even the most minor character can be central to a story... doesn't mean that the story id about them.
Cpt. Nemo helping the castaways in The Mysterious Island was the main driving force behind the story, but it wasn't his story by a long shot.
You mean the creator that said he wanted 9 films but is now saying that the 6 films are all that was supposed to be? Lucas has changed his mind plenty of times since the OT aired.
See here: http://www.starwars.com/theclonewars/news/news20080317.html
And i quote:
Do you think you'd have other people continue the Star Wars saga past Episode VI or turn some of the other material into films?
But there's no story past Episode VI, there's just no story. It's a certain story about Anakin Skywalker and once Anakin Skywalker dies, that's kind of the end of the story. There is no story about Luke Skywalker, I mean apart from the books. But there's three worlds: There's my world that I made up, there's the licensing world that's the books, the comics, all that kind of stuff, the games, which is their world, and then there's the fans' world, which is also very rich in imagination, but they don't always mesh. All I'm in charge of is my world. I can't be in charge of those other people's world, because I can't keep up with it.
And look how this 1976 book was marketed:
Vader has centre stage because he looks cool, as this was the novelisation of Ep. 4's script, and only has minor differences to the film you say was only about Luke.
Marketing is the last way one should judge a product on, even cracked agrees:
And another thing from the official website, the article about Vader: http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/darthvader/
Behind the Scenes The name of Darth Vader was first introduced as a tall, grim-looking general in the rough draft of Star Wars. It was not until the second draft that the character of Vader appeared in a recognizable form. Vader's fearsome face-mask came about almost by accident. Concept artist Ralph McQuarrie designed the mask since the early drafts had Vader board Leia's captured starship by crossing the vacuum of space, a circumstance that necessitated a breathing apparatus. Little did McQuarrie realize that the reason for the mask was more deep-rooted than that.
Vader at first played a limited role in the expanded universe of Star Wars publishing, since the editors of those spin-off works did not know what the films would have in store. As such, Vader tended to plot through proxy villains -- like the House of Tagge nobles or Lumiya that appeared in the early Marvel series. The 1978 novel, Splinter of the Mind's Eye, took the uncharacteristic step of pitting Vader directly against Luke, resulting in their first depicted lightsaber duel. Vader's arm is severed in that battle, and it's only with the hindsight provided by the prequel trilogy do readers now realize it was an artificial arm to begin with.
There's also this interesting tid-bit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splinter_of_the_Mind%27s_Eye#History
So to me it's pretty obvious that Vader was not originally as what he became during the course of the development of the OT.
I'M NOT SAYING THAT LUCAS DIDN'T RETCON IT WITH THE PREQUELS (maybe even got the idea some time during the OT), OR THAT WE SHOULDN'T ACKNOWLEDGE THAT RETCON, but that it was a retcon, thus saying that originally the OT was about Luke going from plucky farmboy to Jedi badass. Vader just happened to be the break out character, like Fonzy... and then he jumped a shark using a pod racer.
Yes, Lucas's word is canon when it comes to the SWU, but not reality... and all signs point to the fact that originally the plan was just to tell the story of Luke (even if his name was different in some early drafts).
Oh, and about the previous brouhaha about what levels there are, the canon levels as per the guy who runs the canon database: http://blogs.starwars.com/holocron/4
Are the entries in the Holocron sorted as canonical & non-canonical? Are there various degrees of "officialness"?
The database does indeed have a canon field for each individual entry and for sources, though the canon level of the entry would overide the canon level of the source since it factors in other sources associated with that entry. When determining canon levels for individual entries, anything in the films and from George Lucas (including unpublished internal notes that we might receive from him or from the film production department) is considered "G" canon. A new level we recently added is "T" canon, comprising of the theatrical release of The Clone Wars and the television series, in addition to the planned live-action television series. Next we have what we call continuity "C" canon which is pretty much everything else from the EU. There is a secondary "S" continuity classification used for older published materials created when there was less attention to making everything in the EU fit with everything else in the EU. But, if it is referenced in something else it becomes "C". Similarly, any "C" canon entry that makes it into the films can become "G" canon. Lastly there is non-continuity "N" which we rarely use except in the case of a blatant contradiction. Any contradictions that arise are dealt with on a case-by-case basis.
Dude, you need to go to the hardware store and buy a new sarcasm detector... sheesh.... my mistake for being humorous, this debate here is too much SERIOUS BUSINESS for that.
#49
JCM
It's a certain story about Anakin Skywalker and once Anakin Skywalker dies, that's kind of the end of the story. There is no story about Luke Skywalker, I mean apart from the books.
Here I tell the Luke fanboy over and over that ep IV was about Luke, like the Hobbit was about just Bilbo and Conan books are about just Conan, but ep V-VI were like LOTR and had many main characters, and the kid posts epIV to prove my point. Guess what, it changed with ep V and VI.
Again-
Now lets move on and see how Lucas sold ep V and V?
See how Luke is just another character? Now, I´d be glad to shove down your throat comparison to films with a main character, like Indiana Jones, Conan or the Bourne trilogy, but even after not getting it for two threads and you taking it to ad-hominems, I still have faith in your intelligence.
But hey, if fallacy is what Luke fanboys call "Jesus I was stupid", feel free to call it so. Again, Lucas, since 79, BEFORE ep V and VI, put Vader´s past as Anakin, and future, off-limits for the EU
A fanboy saying "its Luke´s saga!" vs the marketing for SW (which Luke was just another character), the movies themselves (where othe characters where as central as Luke), the creator saying before its about many mythologies being retold thorugh many characters, and now saying with the prequel its all about Vader.
Who do we go, the movies, marketing and the creator, or a Luke fanboy? I´ll take option number 1, thank you.
---------- Post added at 03:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:54 PM ----------
JCM
Love your own quotes-\"Lian\" said:
It's a certain story about Anakin Skywalker and once Anakin Skywalker dies, that's kind of the end of the story. There is no story about Luke Skywalker, I mean apart from the books.
*yawns*Star wars Ep IV!!!
Here I tell the Luke fanboy over and over that ep IV was about Luke, like the Hobbit was about just Bilbo and Conan books are about just Conan, but ep V-VI were like LOTR and had many main characters, and the kid posts epIV to prove my point. Guess what, it changed with ep V and VI.
Again-
Now lets move on and see how Lucas sold ep V and V?
See how Luke is just another character? Now, I´d be glad to shove down your throat comparison to films with a main character, like Indiana Jones, Conan or the Bourne trilogy, but even after not getting it for two threads and you taking it to ad-hominems, I still have faith in your intelligence.
While I see that you can barely grasp one language (english), Im sure you are smart enough to search google, but hey, if you want to keep babbling about fallacies and strawmen after making them left or right, and STILL not find one EU story of Anakin pre-prequels, I'll just repost over and over to the new fanboy.\"Lian\" said:
Whine about fallacies [/quote]Why are wyou whining about fallacies, I say Lucas always wanted to tell the rest of the Vader story, and you idiotically post a thread that has NOTHING to do with Vader´s past as Anakin.
I really love how you argue all over the place to run away from a)your failed arguements, and b) the fact that you were wrong about being Luke being the main character.
Oh, and George didnt allow pre-prequel, so I´d love for you to find me one pre-SW story where we see Anakin´s story being told, not that you´ll ever be able to find one and wll just post anther thread of more SW fanboys bitching on small details, and NO ANAKIN.
But hey, if fallacy is what Luke fanboys call "Jesus I was stupid", feel free to call it so. Again, Lucas, since 79, BEFORE ep V and VI, put Vader´s past as Anakin, and future, off-limits for the EU
I'm sorry but no, you don't get to have it both ways... either the prequels made the whole 6 movies Vader's saga, and thus the OT is Luke's saga, and yes, I own Star Wars and can overule the movies, creator and marketing.[/quote]Riiight.
A fanboy saying "its Luke´s saga!" vs the marketing for SW (which Luke was just another character), the movies themselves (where othe characters where as central as Luke), the creator saying before its about many mythologies being retold thorugh many characters, and now saying with the prequel its all about Vader.
Who do we go, the movies, marketing and the creator, or a Luke fanboy? I´ll take option number 1, thank you.
---------- Post added at 03:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:54 PM ----------
As valid as saying only Luke was the main character, but sorry, as much as I ignore fanboy opinion like the Luke fanboy who says he is above Lucas´ own words, marketing and the movies in deciding what the movie is about, I dont read fanfiction, unless its canon and has been called "the phantom menace"[/QUOTE]
#50
@Li3n
Right, he marketed ep 5 and 6 just like he marketed ep. 4... with Vader on the cover... (man, i can't believe i didn't just search for some 1977 ep 4 posters from the get go...)
And that Lucas quote is taken from when Attack of the Clones came out, aka after he already retconned it, and it contradicts what you (and Lucas) said about there being a plan for 9 movies...
But hey, ignore any contradictions and just pretend that was the plan all along... there's even a trope for that: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.IMeantToDoThat
There are no Anakin stories during the OT, so Lucas must have told them not to do it from the year you said ('79) is a leap of logic... all we know that Vader's past became off limits at some time in the past... without actual sources from around the OT's time there's no proof either way.
But there i go again whining about you using fallacies in an argument... now why would i ever do that.
@Li3n
Love your own quotes-\"Lian\" said:
It's a certain story about Anakin Skywalker and once Anakin Skywalker dies, that's kind of the end of the story. There is no story about Luke Skywalker, I mean apart from the books.
*yawns*Star wars Ep IV!!!
Here I tell the Luke fanboy over and over that ep IV was about Luke, like the Hobbit was about just Bilbo and Conan books are about just Conan, but ep V-VI were like LOTR and had many main characters, and the kid posts epIV to prove my point. Guess what, it changed with ep V and VI.
Again-
Now lets move on and see how Lucas sold ep V and V?
See how Luke is just another character? Now, I´d be glad to shove down your throat comparison to films with a main character, like Indiana Jones, Conan or the Bourne trilogy, but even after not getting it for two threads and you taking it to ad-hominems, I still have faith in your intelligence.
Right, he marketed ep 5 and 6 just like he marketed ep. 4... with Vader on the cover... (man, i can't believe i didn't just search for some 1977 ep 4 posters from the get go...)
And that Lucas quote is taken from when Attack of the Clones came out, aka after he already retconned it, and it contradicts what you (and Lucas) said about there being a plan for 9 movies...
But hey, ignore any contradictions and just pretend that was the plan all along... there's even a trope for that: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.IMeantToDoThat
Really, how about you find me any stories about Han Solo's childhood that came out at the same time as the OT... or even Leia's or Luke's on Aldeeran of Tatooine.
There are no Anakin stories during the OT, so Lucas must have told them not to do it from the year you said ('79) is a leap of logic... all we know that Vader's past became off limits at some time in the past... without actual sources from around the OT's time there's no proof either way.
But there i go again whining about you using fallacies in an argument... now why would i ever do that.
#51
JCM
Right, he marketed ep 5 and 6 just like he marketed ep. 4...[/quote]Oh dear, lets add "bad vision" to "bad reading comprehension", "bad arguements", "fallacies" and "strawmen".
I love how the Luke fanboysim makes you ignore the fact that the OTHER main characters of ep V and VI are being shown more than Luke (and have more screentime and development to boot)
Really, you dont know squat about SW, do you? Much of Leia's childhood is covered in EU, and so have adventures of young Luke and Solo. Leia for example, has her past told in books as early as snippets of her youth in the Thrawn trilogy (essentially, the reason Lucas decided not to do ep VII to IX, because Timothy Zahn apporached him with a damn better idea, and the thrawn trilogy is basically the next trilogy after VI), the specter of the past, planet of twilight, Children of the Jedi, and countless stories in the Marvel comics (most importantly "the weapons master") all predating the prequels from as early as the late 70s.
I await any story about Anakin, pre-prequel.
However, making idiotic fallacies while pretending you know anything about SW while running away from the fact that Anakin's story has always been off-bounds, because Lucas intended to tell his story, makes it more pathetic to defend your broken idea that epV and VI continued being just "Luke's saga"
Guess unlike the creator, some people have never moved beyond epIV.
JCM
Love your own quotes-Lian said:
It's a certain story about Anakin Skywalker and once Anakin Skywalker dies, that's kind of the end of the story. There is no story about Luke Skywalker, I mean apart from the books.
*yawns*Star wars Ep IV!!!
Here I tell the Luke fanboy over and over that ep IV was about Luke, like the Hobbit was about just Bilbo and Conan books are about just Conan, but ep V-VI were like LOTR and had many main characters, and the kid posts epIV to prove my point. Guess what, it changed with ep V and VI.
Again-
Now lets move on and see how Lucas sold ep V and V?
See how Luke is just another character? Now, I´d be glad to shove down your throat comparison to films with a main character, like Indiana Jones, Conan or the Bourne trilogy, but even after not getting it for two threads and you taking it to ad-hominems, I still have faith in your intelligence.
Right, he marketed ep 5 and 6 just like he marketed ep. 4...[/quote]Oh dear, lets add "bad vision" to "bad reading comprehension", "bad arguements", "fallacies" and "strawmen".
I love how the Luke fanboysim makes you ignore the fact that the OTHER main characters of ep V and VI are being shown more than Luke (and have more screentime and development to boot)
Really, you dont know squat about SW, do you? Much of Leia's childhood is covered in EU, and so have adventures of young Luke and Solo. Leia for example, has her past told in books as early as snippets of her youth in the Thrawn trilogy (essentially, the reason Lucas decided not to do ep VII to IX, because Timothy Zahn apporached him with a damn better idea, and the thrawn trilogy is basically the next trilogy after VI), the specter of the past, planet of twilight, Children of the Jedi, and countless stories in the Marvel comics (most importantly "the weapons master") all predating the prequels from as early as the late 70s.
I await any story about Anakin, pre-prequel.
However, making idiotic fallacies while pretending you know anything about SW while running away from the fact that Anakin's story has always been off-bounds, because Lucas intended to tell his story, makes it more pathetic to defend your broken idea that epV and VI continued being just "Luke's saga"
Guess unlike the creator, some people have never moved beyond epIV.
#52
@Li3n
@Li3n
#53
SpecialKO
SpecialKO
#54
SeraRelm
SeraRelm
Fuck you. It's all about Wedge, bitches.
#55
Mr. Lawface
Mr. Lawface
#56
JCM
JCM
#57
@Li3n
@Li3n
#58
JCM
JCM