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The Falcon and The Winter Soldier Spoiler Thread

#1

Shawn

Shawn

Just as WandaVision I can only imagine that when this series gets really going it's going to spark an entire thread of thoughts.

First Episode is a very different feel from WandaVision. We're back to the spy movie feel of the C.A. movies.

So far I'm impressed with the action sequences. It's plot is moving a little slow but I do like the drama.
It gives a much more bleaker depiction of billions of people coming back from the blip all at once and the ramifications of that. WandaVision touched on it but this series is definitely exploring the crap the world would realistically go through in a lot more detail.


#2

Celt Z

Celt Z

I feel like, after this year, the post-"Blip" events are much closer to reality here than in Spider-Man: Far From Home or WandaVision. Probably because at the time they were written, we could only laugh at the idea of a world-shaking event, but those scenes at the bank? Ouch, too real.

Also, emotional whiplash: the opening, as Sam gets ready, gave me Endgame heartache all over again, but Not!Steve makes me want to punch him in his smarmy face. So angry.


#3

Gryfter

Gryfter

Like it, want more.


#4

sixpackshaker

sixpackshaker

Still waiting for Mephisto clues.


#5

HCGLNS

HCGLNS

Hmmm, looks like they're going with US Agent.


#6

bhamv3

bhamv3

HCGLNS said:
Hmmm, looks like they're going with US Agent.
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Who is clearly Mephisto. Clearly.


#7

ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

I really liked it. It's obviously more grounded (as in "less weird") than WandaVision and more in line with the Winter Soldier film.

LOVED that opening action sequence.

It's interesting that Bucky is a man out of time like Steve, but with the added layer of guilt for his actions. My heart broke when I realized how the old man meant to him. Also really liked the counseling session.

I don't think it'll be as out-there as WandaVision and I don't think we'll get a twist as jaw-dropping as Evan Peters appearing. I think it'll be more...maybe not predictable, but more straight forward. Which is fine, too. Going by this first episode, I think it'll be great for its own reasons: being a more grounded superhero spy-ish story.


#8

HCGLNS

HCGLNS

bhamv3 said:
Who is clearly Mephisto. Clearly.
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US Agent real name is John Walker.
His nick name growing up was Johnnie.
Johnnie Walker.
Johnnie Walker is a brand of Scotch.
Johnnie Walker Red is the nost popular brand of Scotch in the world.
Red is the colour of Mephisto.

QED US Agent is Mephisto.


#9

Celt Z

Celt Z

And here I though he was Snake Plissken, Jr.


#10

Krisken

Krisken

Screenshot_20210323-204132_Messenger.jpg


#11

Shawn

Shawn

This therapist needs her own show.


#12

Celt Z

Celt Z

Mackie and Stan have such great chemistry together. Also can't get over how much Wyatt looks like his dad. Even the same lip curl. (Still want to punch him, tho'.)

If last week's bank scene was heartbreaking, Baltimore was devastating for its reality. I'm glad Disney isn't shying away from calling out casual racism bullshit. I'm glad they also brought back Isaiah Bradley. I remember when those comics were announces in the early 2000's, and given the history the US government and military had on experimenting on black men, it made a lot of sense.


#13

Celt Z

Celt Z

Another thought, something I forgot to mention until I saw someone else make the same observation: it was jarring and uncomfortable to see Walker pull out a gun and start shooting at people. Yes, Steve did use guns, particularly in The First Avenger when his powers were new. But the longer he was" Cap", the more he relied on his shield and just himself. I know this was done on purpose to further the divide between real Captain America and US Agent, but still... bleah.


#14

HCGLNS

HCGLNS

Power Broker!

:aaah:


#15

ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

Celt Z said:
Another thought, something I forgot to mention until I saw someone else make the same observation: it was jarring and uncomfortable to see Walker pull out a gun and start shooting at people. Yes, Steve did use guns, particularly in The First Avenger when his powers were new. But the longer he was" Cap", the more he relied on his shield and just himself. I know this was done on purpose to further the divide between real Captain America and US Agent, but still... bleah.
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Funny enough, a lot of people had a similar reaction when Bucky had a sidearm while he was Cap.

Honestly, even Steve using a gun never bothered me that much. He's a soldier. I think the fact that he's SUPER soldier, with powers, gives him a major advantage to the point he doesn't need guns.

Guys like Walker and Bucky, though, don't have any powers so they need that extra advantage just to compete at Steve's level.


#16

Celt Z

Celt Z

ThatNickGuy said:
Funny enough, a lot of people had a similar reaction when Bucky had a sidearm while he was Cap.

Honestly, even Steve using a gun never bothered me that much. He's a soldier. I think the fact that he's SUPER soldier, with powers, gives him a major advantage to the point he doesn't need guns.

Guys like Walker and Bucky, though, don't have any powers so they need that extra advantage just to compete at Steve's level.
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I guess it was more of the context? Like, they're trying to figure out who these guys really are and what are they up to, and eh, just shoot as them. To me, it just amplified the widening gap between Steve and Walker. (Also, I'm solely referring to MCU Cap when I talk about the gun thing. Comics Cap is a different story, and less uncommon for him.)


#17

ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

Celt Z said:
I guess it was more of the context? Like, they're trying to figure out who these guys really are and what are they up to, and eh, just shoot as them. To me, it just amplified the widening gap between Steve and Walker. (Also, I'm solely referring to MCU Cap when I talk about the gun thing. Comics Cap is a different story, and less uncommon for him.)
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Sorry, I didn't meant to come across as Comicsplaining there. Just found the issue with using a gun interestingly similar to reactions to when Bucky did.


#18

Shakey

Shakey

Ugh, Walker has an ugly ass chew lip. Nasty.


#19

D

Dubyamn

Had a couple problems with the episode. I know that the terrorists had to get away but I don't like the heroes accomplishing nothing during the fight. Also the terrorists magically appearing on the top of the trucks was just silly.

Also didn't like how Falcon and Bucky acted this episode. Every interaction with New Cap they were just brats. Like I get it you don't like that the US government commissioned a new Captain that doesn't mean you get to be a dick to a guy who just risked his life to save you.

Course some of that might be that I really like the actor playing New Cap. But I'll stand by that Bucky and Falcon being pissy is just a real punk move.

Also seems way too soon to be telegraphing that the flagsmashers are good people. I think that the heroes kinda suffered when they spent so much time on the flagsmashers adventures.


#20

Ravenpoe

Ravenpoe

Dubyamn said:
Had a couple problems with the episode. I know that the terrorists had to get away but I don't like the heroes accomplishing nothing during the fight. Also the terrorists magically appearing on the top of the trucks was just silly.

Also didn't like how Falcon and Bucky acted this episode. Every interaction with New Cap they were just brats. Like I get it you don't like that the US government commissioned a new Captain that doesn't mean you get to be a dick to a guy who just risked his life to save you.

Course some of that might be that I really like the actor playing New Cap. But I'll stand by that Bucky and Falcon being pissy is just a real punk move.

Also seems way too soon to be telegraphing that the flagsmashers are good people. I think that the heroes kinda suffered when they spent so much time on the flagsmashers adventures.
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I have the opposite reaction as you. New Cap is so nice... I hate him.


#21

Shawn

Shawn

Based on comic depictions of Walker and US Patriot I think New Cap is going to be tempted by the Power Broker's wares in an effort to be worthy of the Captain America name.


#22

Celt Z

Celt Z

Ravenpoe said:
I have the opposite reaction as you. New Cap is so nice... I hate him.
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I don't get a nice guy vibe from him at all. More like a "Nice Guy". There's something simmering beneath the surface. He's the kind of guy that all the guys will tell you "Hey, John's a great guy!", but girls will warn you not to be alone with him.


#23

HCGLNS

HCGLNS

From what I saw, US Agent has been augmented. The jerk behaviour is the trouble with the drug addiction part of the augmentation. Remember hiw he tested off the charts physically and was able to go toe to toe with an augment? Thinking Power Broker is the big enemy, or a good way to introduce more augments for the good guys to fight.


#24

Frank

Frank

I was happy to see GSP aka Batroc ze Leaper again and I'm glad he didn't just get Crossbone'd.

Sam should start a go-fund me. Black people getting turned down for a loan despite helping to save Quadrillions (or more) of lives is the most realistic part of this show.


#25

Shawn

Shawn

Episode 3
A lot is going on and I don't feel like I'm keeping up with it very well.


#26

Vrii

Vrii

Shawn said:
Episode 3
A lot is going on and I don't feel like I'm keeping up with it very well.
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I watched it, then I read a summary, and now I mostly feel like I'm up to speed!


#27

Piotyr

Piotyr

For a large part of this episode, I was convinced Sharon Carter was the Power Broker, and I'm still not completely unconvinced.


#28

Shawn

Shawn

Piotyr said:
For a large part of this episode, I was convinced Sharon Carter was the Power Broker, and I'm still not completely unconvinced.
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That would explain why she’s so well off. And also why that scene was so weirdly edited. I thought they just wanted to establish her as an elite member of society for no reason whatsoever.


#29

Tiger Tsang

Tiger Tsang

I wouldn't be overly surprised if Nick Fury doesn't have her out there on 'assignment' as someone 'off the books'.


#30

Celt Z

Celt Z

On one hand, making her Power Broker would give Sharon more to do, with SHIELD being defunct and all. On the otherhand, WandaVision has taught us not to expect every trail of breadcrumbs is going to lead to something.


#31

Shawn

Shawn

Also, that seems like a big jump for a character like Sharon.


#32

D

Dubyamn

First episode that was bad. I really love spy films and this episode was basically a bunch of children playing spy film. And then it was just super rushed throughout.


#33

ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

Yeah, I wasn't crazy about this episode.

Honestly, I find I'm not as jazzed to watch this like WandaVision. I'm still enjoying it for the most part, but I'm not as glued to the TV like WandaVision. Which isn't really a fair comparison since they're entirely different kinds of shows. But I find I have zero interest in the Flag Smashers. And I was looking at my phone a lot during this episode because I just wasn't enthralled by it.

I don't think it's BAD, mind you. I think I'm unfairly comparing it with WandaVision which was brilliantly subversive at times. This is more grounded, by the numbers stuff. Which I expected, since it's more of a grounded spy thriller by design. But I find I'm caring less and less about this story.


#34

Shawn

Shawn

Looking back on it there was a lot that I did not like about this episode. A few already touched on by some folks here.

* The overall pacing on this one is way too quick.
* A lot of massive plot points are completely glossed over.
* Bucky breaks Zemo out of prison and not even for a very good reason.
* Sam has no idea what the hell this pirate island thing is despite being on the run from the law for 2 years. You'd think International Criminal 101 would have Madripoor as the first lesson.
* Zemo was a great sympathetic villain in Civil War. But here he just seems like a rich asshat.
* The boys play spy and its painful to watch Sam struggle through it.
* Sharon Carter comes out of nowhere to save them. Her placement in high society makes me worry she will be revealed as the Power Broker which honestly wouldn't make any sense as far as motive. Plus then the audience has to deal with such a good character becoming a ruthless villain for no reason and I think most folks won't like it.
* They promise Sharon to get her a pardon despite the fact that they are clearly walking around with a super criminal that they just sprung from a Germany prison. I don't really think they, and especially Sharon, would believe they have any kind of pull after that one. Plus, it also acknowledges it as fact that despite Sam, Bucky and Cap all getting pardons for everything that happened no one remembered to do the same for Sharon? That's messed up.


#35

Frank

Frank

This third episode is really dumb.


#36

HCGLNS

HCGLNS

Guys, Sharon is playing the role of Patch.


#37

ScytheRexx

ScytheRexx

ThatNickGuy said:
Guys like Walker and Bucky, though, don't have any powers so they need that extra advantage just to compete at Steve's level.
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Just a little correction but Bucky does have powers close to Steve's level. HYDRA used a reverse engineered version of the Super Soldier Serum to give Bucky enhanced strength and speed. It's why he can run faster then a car and can survive a fall out of a plane. They just like to focus more on the fact he has a cool robot arm and likes guns, so that he overlaps less with Steve.


#38

ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

ScytheRexx said:
Just a little correction but Bucky does have powers close to Steve's level. HYDRA used a reverse engineered version of the Super Soldier Serum to give Bucky enhanced strength and speed. It's why he can run faster then a car and can survive a fall out of a plane. They just like to focus more on the fact he has a cool robot arm and likes guns, so that he overlaps less with Steve.
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Ah, I actually wasn't aware of that. I THINK in the comics, he doesn't have any powers and that's what I equated it with. I didn't realize he had a form of Super Soldier Serum in him. But it's been a long while since I last watched Winter Soldier.


#39

ScytheRexx

ScytheRexx

Shawn said:
Looking back on it there was a lot that I did not like about this episode. A few already touched on by some folks here.
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I agree and disagree on a few things with your list, but I wanted to go over a few key things.
Zemo was a great sympathetic villain in Civil War. But here he just seems like a rich asshat.
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Honestly, I like this development, because it filled in what I felt was one of Zemo's biggest plot holes in CACW. HOW did he get all that shit he got?

The dude got a super realistic mask of Bucky, a full sized EMP device, access to top secret classified information, a bomb able to blow up a UN building, able to sneak into a high security fortress looking nothing like the doctor he was impersonating, and then a personal flight to Siberia? They never explained how an "Ex-Sokovian Special Forces" guy could pull off all this shit. Did he just have a lot of savings? Did he steal it all from HYDRA? Now we finally know, the dude was basically bad guy Bruce Wayne.

As for his personality, you have to realize that he was going through the five stages of grief in Civil War. By the time we meet him, he was in the anger stage, wanting to just kill anyone that got in his way of his revenge. By the end, he hit depression, deciding to take his life, because none of his money or power meant anything to him without his family. He has now had almost a decade (assuming he was not snapped) to reach acceptance, and now we are meeting the true Zemo. Still hates meta-humans though.
Sharon Carter comes out of nowhere to save them. Her placement in high society makes me worry she will be revealed as the Power Broker which honestly wouldn't make any sense as far as motive. Plus then the audience has to deal with such a good character becoming a ruthless villain for no reason and I think most folks won't like it.
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She won't be.
She is 100% working for Nick Fury as one of his ground ops. If she was actually the Power Broker, she wouldn't have put them within a hundred feet of the doctor that cracked the Super Serum code, nor would she have worked so hard defending them from the bounty hunters. I mean, think about it, HOW DID SHE KNOW Bucky and Sam were at the bar in the first place? How did she know she was going to have to setup a sniper nest to kill the bar owner and any people pursuing the trio? Her change in personality is either trying to retain her cover as a hardened criminal, or because she has one or more Skrulls working for her that are filling in for her. Remember the weird bikers and other dudes that just randomly seemed to fire into the air while the trio was running from the bar? Ten bucks those were Skrulls just trying to cause confusion.

My theory? The Power Broker is Thunderbolt Ross. The dude's entire career was attempting to recreate Super Soldiers. It was working on this that caused Bruce Banner to accidently turn himself into the Hulk, and they showed later he even had dozens of Super Soldier Serum canisters, some of which he used on Emil Blonsky and likely came from Isiah. I won't even go into the Raft being the perfect off the grid location to imprison and experiment on meta-humans that break the law. Then the blip came, and the government collapsed, and Thaddeus had to figure out a new way to keep up his obsessions.


#40

ScytheRexx

ScytheRexx

ThatNickGuy said:
Ah, I actually wasn't aware of that. I THINK in the comics, he doesn't have any powers and that's what I equated it with. I didn't realize he had a form of Super Soldier Serum in him. But it's been a long while since I last watched Winter Soldier.
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It can be easy to miss because they do focus on his metal arm a lot, and of course later on he just used a gun all the time in IW and Endgame. His best examples of his super abilities are when he kicked a dude fifty yards into a jet turbine in Winter Soldier, or pretty much the entire chase scene in Civil War where he is just jumping off seven story buildings or outran cars on the freeway.



(P.S I never even noticed this before, but he just grabs TChalla out of the air into a choke with his REGULAR arm at the 2 minute mark.)


#41

@Li3n

@Li3n

ThatNickGuy said:
I THINK in the comics, he doesn't have any powers and that's what I equated it with.
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Of course, in the comics (well, in 616), Steve technically doesn't have any superpowers either.

All of his abilities are just peak human, so there should be people out there that can lift as much as he can, run as fast, have the same reflexes, be able to throw his shield like he does etc. He just can do it all at the same time without spending as much time training for each.


#42

HCGLNS

HCGLNS

I can't help but think that every MCU show is going to fall flat now that Agatha All Along was released.

What kind of song will Power Broker have?

Also, Thunderbolt Ross is the Red Hulk, red is the colour of Mephisto.


#43

Shawn

Shawn

I do not like the direction of these episodes. They seem dull and poorly planned. The editing is inconsistent. The script is bad. Nobody’s story arc makes any sense.


#44

Shawn

Shawn

I hate how Zemo manages to escape down a manhole and is gone for just a few moments and all three of the groups give up on finding him. It's like "Oh no! He's gone. We'd have to be a group of highly trained warrior women from a technologically advanced civilization, or a man hunting super soldier, or a war hero with surveillance and speed-enhancing gadgets to be able to find him. What will we ever do?"


#45

Piotyr

Piotyr

Hard disagree, this episode was the best yet, and everyone has reasons for what they're doing, and the point is looking at what ends justify what means.

Carli wants to unite the world but she's using the serum to establish supremacy to get there.

Walker thinks the serum will help him save more people, but he couldn't even save Hoskins. And lashing out in public view of the world is going to have consequences, and it's only going to get worse for him.

Zemo had the serum in his hands but destroyed it anyway, sticking to his ideals, but thinks murdering every super solder is the only path to peace.

Sam relates to Carli's ideals but not her methods, understands Zemo's point but won't let him kill anyone to get there, and understands Walker's position (more than Walker does, for sure), but is at odds with his perspective.

Bucky gets the Dora Milaje's concerns about Zemo but needed him to stop the Flagsmashers.

The Dora Milaje don't care about politics, only justice.


#46

Tress

Tress

Agree with @Piotyr on this episode. I like the themes they are playing with. I also find it interesting that Sam is going to be one of the few major players in the show with no superpowers. It’s an interesting commentary on how power does not equal justice or righteousness.


#47

Gryfter

Gryfter

Yeah I am still liking the show.... not as much as WV but still enjoying it.


#48

Celt Z

Celt Z

Gryfter said:
Yeah I am still liking the show.... not as much as WV but still enjoying it.
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I'm in the same boat, but I think a lot of that comes from WandaVision subverting expectations and playing around with the format. This feels a lot more like your usual Marvel movie, so I'm entertained but not as hyped for "What are they going to do next??".


#49

Tiger Tsang

Tiger Tsang

WandaVision was playing around with cosmic, COSMIC, levels of power.
This show is featuring characters that by themselves, would have fit in with the Netflix shows as far as power levels.


#50

D

Dubyamn

Man the writers are in love with Zemo. Hopefully he's gone for a bit so the other characters don't have to be bit players in the Zemo show.


#51

Ravenpoe

Ravenpoe

Dubyamn said:
Man the writers are in love with Zemo. Hopefully he's gone for a bit so the other characters don't have to be bit players in the Zemo show.
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I for one welcome the Zemo show


#52

Tress

Tress

I liked this review:
The AV Club: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier Returns to Form


#53

ScytheRexx

ScytheRexx

I honestly am loving the show, but I do feel like there are a bit too many subplots racing around right now. WandaVision was great because it was so focused around Wanda, and even the side plot with the people outside were focused on Wanda. We didn't even get a real villain reveal until the show was nearly over.

FATWS just has a lot going on. Sam and his regrets with the Shield, Bucky attempting to recover and be normal, John attempting to live up to his name and losing his marbles, Karli on her crusade to unite the world, Zemo on his crusade to kill Karli, and now the Dora Milaje on their crusade to capture Zemo. Then you have to stuff Sharon in there sometimes. We still barely know anything about the Power Broker, even though they keep talking about him. I really feel like it needs to try to breath sometimes, as each episode is attempting to push forward like four or five different plot trees.

Again I am having a blast with the show, but I really wish it would take a second to let us really calm down and take stuff in a bit.


#54

ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

Yeah, it really feels like there's a LOT going on all at once and maybe too many characters all involved at the same time. I realized that when there were FIVE people all going after Karli at once (Sam, Bucky, Zemo, Walker, Hoskins). Kinda surprised how quickly Hoskins died. Though I noticed that Walker didn't take the lead when they went in, which you would figure the DUDE WITH THE SHIELD would. Steve would've taken point and that just further shows the difference between the two. To say nothing of the ending.


#55

ScytheRexx

ScytheRexx

I am still trying to figure out what Walker was even doing in that scene. He stops moving while Hoskins continues on up. At first I thought he saw something, but they never show what he saw, so I can only assume he was having a brain aneurysm from taking the Super Soldier serum and that's why he just kind of stopped and aimlessly looked around while his friend was kidnapped.

Also, the minute that one guy had that little heart to heart with Karli, I knew she was going to die. The same thing happened in a past episode where the one guy that supported her at the safe house sacrificed himself at the airport. What I didn't expect was he would admit to being a childhood fan of Captain America, only to get his face smashed in by Captain America's shield. Talk about ghastly


#56

Celt Z

Celt Z

ScytheRexx said:
I am still trying to figure out what Walker was even doing in that scene. He stops moving while Hoskins continues on up. At first I thought he saw something, but they never show what he saw, so I can only assume he was having a brain aneurysm from taking the Super Soldier serum and that's why he just kind of stopped and aimlessly looked around while his friend was kidnapped.
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If it's the part I think you're talking about, I thought he was listening for any kind of movement. He bursts through the door and it's silent, then waits to hear anything to tell him which way to go.


#57

General Specific

General Specific

I think he was talking about the bit just prior to that, when they were ascending the stairs. Walker comes in with his shield up, Hoskins moves past him up the stairs. Walker pauses for a bit while Hoskins then disappears. Walker should have been moving directly after Hoskins got to the landing.


#58

ScytheRexx

ScytheRexx

General Specific said:
I think he was talking about the bit just prior to that, when they were ascending the stairs. Walker comes in with his shield up, Hoskins moves past him up the stairs. Walker pauses for a bit while Hoskins then disappears. Walker should have been moving directly after Hoskins got to the landing.
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That's the part, yes. He just stops ascending the stairs and just looks around for awhile before going "Hoskins?" like he somehow didn't notice Hoskins continued going up the stairs.

One other little aside but I was really happy Zemo smashed most of the serum. It's fine for some characters to grow or change, but Zemo is almost entirely defined by the strength of his convictions. Having him hold literal power in his hands and then destroying it was perfect and fits with the Zemo we know that shot a bunch of sleeping super soldiers in the head during CACW, and I am glad they didn't try to do some twistaroo where he wanted to be a super soldier now.


#59

Shawn

Shawn

Did I miss something regarding Sharon Carter?
Is she a good guy or a bad guy now?
Cause she's the one who got the Batroc to work with Karlie right?


#60

figmentPez

figmentPez

Two thoughts I've been talking about Kags about when it comes to symbolism in this show:

Zemo is the anti-White Witch of Narnia. She wanted eternal winter, he wants to end the Winter Solider (well, the meta-human threat that program represents). She tried to get rid of all humans, Zemo wants to get rid of all magical creatures (I'm assuming Zemo is no happier about Asgardians and sorcerers than he is about super soliders). They both use Turkish delights to manipulate children, though. I will be irrationally angry if none of these parallels occurred to the writers and the Turkish delights were just an old fashioned candy with no other significance.

Karli is the physical antithesis of Steve/Cap when it comes to the Aryan/Nazi standard of beauty. She's mixed-raced, red haired, freckled, big nosed, and female. Don't get me wrong, she's flippin' gorgeous, but she's as polar opposite from white, blue-eyed, blonde dude as you can get without being fat and disfigured. I think it's really brilliant casting to play up that angle, and I'm glad they found such a strong actor who also had the right look.


#61

Bubble181

Bubble181

figmentPez said:
Two thoughts I've been talking about Kags about when it comes to symbolism in this show:

Zemo is the anti-White Witch of Narnia. She wanted eternal winter, he wants to end the Winter Solider (well, the meta-human threat that program represents). She tried to get rid of all humans, Zemo wants to get rid of all magical creatures (I'm assuming Zemo is no happier about Asgardians and sorcerers than he is about super soliders). They both use Turkish delights to manipulate children, though. I will be irrationally angry if none of these parallels occurred to the writers and the Turkish delights were just an old fashioned candy with no other significance.

Karli is the physical antithesis of Steve/Cap when it comes to the Aryan/Nazi standard of beauty. She's mixed-raced, red haired, freckled, big nosed, and female. Don't get me wrong, she's flippin' gorgeous, but she's as polar opposite from white, blue-eyed, blonde dude as you can get without being fat and disfigured. I think it's really brilliant casting to play up that angle, and I'm glad they found such a strong actor who also had the right look.
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OK, so based on the above I looked up Erin Kellyman (the actress playing karli). I was curious what mixed race combination manages to keep red hair - it's exceedlingly rare because of the recessive nature of the gene.
Anyway, she's Irish-Jamaican, fair enough, curiosity ended.
Now, in looking it up, I ended up on https://biowikis.com/erin-kellyman/ . Seemingly a fairly basic informatieve site. But then I was reading and.....ugh. "a perfectly shaped, slim body", and more descriptors like that, just make me feel unclean by association.


#62

ScytheRexx

ScytheRexx

Shawn said:
Did I miss something regarding Sharon Carter?
Is she a good guy or a bad guy now?
Cause she's the one who got the Batroc to work with Karlie right?
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Gonna say this again, but of course spoiler it just in case I am right.
Sharon is working for Nick Fury. Ever since episode one, I have been wondering why Bartoc was attempting to kidnap a single US soldier. Under the context that he did it for Sharon, it makes a lot more sense to me. Why? Well remember, this isn't the first time Bartoc was specifically hired on as a smoke screen for Nick Fury. In "The Winter Soldier", Nick Fury covertly hires Bartoc to commandeer the SHIELD ship at the beginning. He uses the chaos of that fight to have Natasha steal secret intelligence that Fury knew was off limits to him. That intelligence was what lead to them sending the Winter Soldier to attempt to kill him before he could decrypt it. Now that we know Sharon is involved both with that kidnapping event, and sending Bartoc to help Karli, I have a feeling that Fury is either attempting to test Sam's abilities, has some other motive to root out the Power Broker, or is stressing the GRC to root out corruption. Will be interesting to see what it ends up being.

My other big theory was that Thaddeus Ross is the Power Broker, but the fact Zemo is now on his way to the Raft makes me wonder if I was wrong on that. It's no coincidence that they name dropped that place on purpose, because in the comics both Zemo and Ross have been leaders of the group known as the Thunderbolts. I assumed they would play up Ross' obsession with creating a new super soldier, but I also realize after the Hulk incident, and the fact he was behind the Sokovia Accords, it's much more likely he mentally aligns with Zemo when it comes to super powered people. As such my theory has changed. I don't think we are even going to find out who the Power Broker is this series, but they might tease him for an upcoming series instead. I still don't think it's going to be Sharon.


#63

Frank

Frank

This episode was a tonal whiplash. Jesus.

I laughed out loud when Julia Louis-Dreyfus was revealed to be

kind-of MADAME HYDRA!


#64

Celt Z

Celt Z

Frank said:
This episode was a tonal whiplash. Jesus.

I laughed out loud when Julia Louis-Dreyfus was revealed to be

kind-of MADAME HYDRA!
Click to expand...
I really thought it was a VEEP crossover for a few seconds.


#65

D

Dubyamn

Best episode of the series so far.

Though apparently everybody can just toss the shield like that always figured that took ridiculous skill and strength.


#66

Celt Z

Celt Z

Dubyamn said:
Best episode of the series so far.

Though apparently everybody can just toss the shield like that always figured that took ridiculous skill and strength.
Click to expand...
Well, ya know...



#67

ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

Celt Z said:
Well, ya know...

Click to expand...
Get Off.jpg


#68

ScytheRexx

ScytheRexx

Dubyamn said:
though apparently everybody can just toss the shield like that always figured that took ridiculous skill and strength.
Click to expand...
When you think about it what reference did we have? Steve was the first person use it, and immediately started using it as a frisbee weapon. We all just assumed that was Steve's skill or strength, but it could have always been that the vibranium composition of the shield simply made it do what it does, and Steve figured this out quickly after taking it into combat.


#69

figmentPez

figmentPez

Zemo on Cargo Shorts meme.png


#70

Celt Z

Celt Z

figmentPez said:
View attachment 37606
Click to expand...
I mean, no, they're incredibly unflattering on pretty much every body type, but yeah, at least two functional pockets make me jealous.


#71

figmentPez

figmentPez



#72

HCGLNS

HCGLNS

figmentPez said:
Click to expand...
Not RAW, but I'll allow it. But, be forwarned I will Beauty and the Beast the hell out of this.


#73

Shakey

Shakey

Any final guesses on who Power Broker is?
My favorite out there pick would be Fisk, as long as he’s played by D’Onofrio.


#74

ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

Shakey said:
Any final guesses on who Power Broker is?
My favorite out there pick would be Fisk, as long as he’s played by D’Onofrio.
Click to expand...
Mephisto, obviously.


#75

Bubble181

Bubble181

ThatNickGuy said:
Mephisto, obviously.
Click to expand...
I was going to say that it had, in fact, been Agatha all along, but I guess yours works better.


#76

figmentPez

figmentPez

Shakey said:
Any final guesses on who Power Broker is?
My favorite out there pick would be Fisk, as long as he’s played by D’Onofrio.
Click to expand...
The kid from Iron Man 3.


#77

Shawn

Shawn

The Zemo Dance cut gets even better.


#78

Celt Z

Celt Z

Shawn said:
The Zemo Dance cut gets even better.
Click to expand...
My husband, spoiled by streaming, hates waiting for episodes to come out, so he waits until a whole season is posted and then binges. He was not impressed by episode one of TFatWS when he watched it...a week ago or whatever. But last night he threw on episode 2 and was hooked. Binged the rest.

Anyway, we get to this scene, and he's like, "Oh! Is this what the internet has been going nuts about? I thought it was an outtake from Civil War.".



...well, shit, now *I* want to see the dance party scene in Civil War.


#79

Shawn

Shawn

Sorry. I really don't buy that Sharon Carter would become The Power Broker. It seems very out of character for her.
Also, her motivation in this series does not make sense. She personally leads Zemo to her scientist who is crafting the super soldier serum. It shouldn't take a criminal genius to realize that Zemo would kill him. She also attempts to betray Sam and Bucky by helping Karli, but then helping them find Karli at the same time. It's not just a matter of playing both sides here for me, because it just feels off. Nothing of what she did felt like it made sense. Did she want the pardon or not? Did she want the super soldier serum or not?

The other part of this that doesn't make sense is why Sharon Carter was still a fugitive in the first place. Steve, Sam and Bucky all get pardons for the events that happened (and Bucky killed a lot of good people.). Sharon stole a shield. Even if somehow the system was being a prick about it you can guarantee that Steve would never have forgotten about her and let that ruling stand. Just knowing that Sharon was still out there as a fugitive kinda makes Steve look like a total douche-canoe retroactively.

I know people like this series and I'm glad for that. But I have to say I'm disappointed because of how shoe-horned in Sharon as the villain is and how unrealistic her motivations are. It feels like they really went for a "shunned by the system she fought for survival and became more like the villains she once fought" kinda sympathetic villain with her. But they did not achieve that realistically enough for me. This is a woman who chose to fight against Hydra when they revealed themselves to be part of SHIELD. Years later she suddenly has no qualms with selling U.S. secrets and weapons to the highest bidder. It just feels like someone went into the writing room and said "Sharon's a villain now. Make it work."

Sharon Carter about to go Villain.
1619174344315.png


Edit: It's been a day in a "spoiler" thread, so I'm just removing the spoiler brackets from this.


#80

Adam

Adam

Shawn said:
Sorry. I really don't buy that Sharon Carter would become The Power Broker. It seems very out of character for her.
Also, her motivation in this series does not make sense. She personally leads Zemo to her scientist who is crafting the super soldier serum. It shouldn't take a criminal genius to realize that Zemo would kill him. She also attempts to betray Sam and Bucky by helping Karli, but then helping them find Karli at the same time. It's not just a matter of playing both sides here for me, because it just feels off. Nothing of what she did felt like it made sense. Did she want the pardon or not? Did she want the super soldier serum or not?

The other part of this that doesn't make sense is why Sharon Carter was still a fugitive in the first place. Steve, Sam and Bucky all get pardons for the events that happened (and Bucky killed a lot of good people.). Sharon stole a shield. Even if somehow the system was being a prick about it you can guarantee that Steve would never have forgotten about her and let that ruling stand. Just knowing that Sharon was still out there as a fugitive kinda makes Steve look like a total douche-canoe retroactively.

I know people like this series and I'm glad for that. But I have to say I'm disappointed because of how shoe-horned in Sharon as the villain is and how unrealistic her motivations are. It feels like they really went for a "shunned by the system she fought for survival and became more like the villains she once fought" kinda sympathetic villain with her. But they did not achieve that realistically enough for me. This is a woman who chose to fight against Hydra when they revealed themselves to be part of SHIELD. Years later she suddenly has no qualms with selling U.S. secrets and weapons to the highest bidder. It just feels like someone went into the writing room and said "Sharon's a villain now. Make it work."

Sharon Carter about to go Villain.
View attachment 37669
Click to expand...

Skrull Carter, obviously


#81

Frank

Frank

I feel like the whole conclusion episode was extremely clumsy. It felt chopped up and incoherent to me.

I still mostly enjoyed the series.


#82

ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

Final episode was clunky, no question, but everything involving Sam was great. The truck rescue was a great hero moment and his speech was just. So. GOOD. Even Steve would've been like, "Damn, that's a good speech."

The finale stuck the landing where it mattered. I have to wonder what was cut since apparently the original plot involved some kind of virus used by the Flag Smashers. They really got the short end of the stick in all this, really. They weren't fleshed out well at all. Which is a shame because Karli and the actress playing her was great for what little we got of her.


#83

Frank

Frank

I do love that US Agent has learned basically nothing and got everything he ever wanted. America.


#84

D

Dubyamn

They really stuck the ending. I think the series probably should have had half as much action and like 3 times as much explaining cause they really didn't do well putting the action into context.


#85

Squidleybits

Squidleybits

It could have been several episodes longer. I would have been good with that.


#86

Tress

Tress

Squidleybits said:
It could have been several episodes longer. I would have been good with that.
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Agreed. It feels like they tried to do too much and ended up shorting most of their storylines as a result.


#87

Piotyr

Piotyr

I've heard a lot of the storyline truncation was due to COVID timing, as the pandemic hit when they were halfway through filming. Caused them to completely scrap a planned pandemic storyline (this was why the Flagsmashers were stealing medicines and vaccines), and COVID guidelines forced them to rework most of the last two episodes so most of the fighting was done in large, empty warehouses.


#88

figmentPez

figmentPez

Honestly, the pacing of both WandaVision and TFATWS reminded me of a lot of comic book story arcs. Lots of setup, great character moments, tons of references and worldbuilding, then a rushed ending that doesn't really feel like the payoff the story needed.


#89

PatrThom

PatrThom

figmentPez said:
Honestly, the pacing of both WandaVision and TFATWS reminded me of a lot of comic book story arcs. Lots of setup, great character moments, tons of references and worldbuilding, then a rushed ending that doesn't really feel like the payoff the story needed.
Click to expand...
Almost feels like a Heinlein novel.

--Patrick


#90

Bubble181

Bubble181

So, watched the first episode tonight. Like it so far.
Are there any mid- or end-credit scenes or stings we should know about?


#91

Far

Far

Bubble181 said:
So, watched the first episode tonight. Like it so far.
Are there any mid- or end-credit scenes or stings we should know about?
Click to expand...
I don't believe there were any until episode 5 and 6.


#92

Tress

Tress

Bubble181 said:
Are there any mid- or end-credit scenes or stings we should know about?
Click to expand...
Some episodes yes, and some no. But the credits for each one have references and clues that are unique to that episode (nothing too important, though).


#93

figmentPez

figmentPez



#94

Tiger Tsang

Tiger Tsang

ThatNickGuy said:
Final episode was clunky, no question, but everything involving Sam was great. The truck rescue was a great hero moment and his speech was just. So. GOOD. Even Steve would've been like, "Damn, that's a good speech."

The finale stuck the landing where it mattered. I have to wonder what was cut since apparently the original plot involved some kind of virus used by the Flag Smashers. They really got the short end of the stick in all this, really. They weren't fleshed out well at all. Which is a shame because Karli and the actress playing her was great for what little we got of her.
Click to expand...
They were actually supposed to be stealing a vaccine for the dispossessed.


#95

GasBandit

GasBandit

Celt Z said:
My husband, spoiled by streaming, hates waiting for episodes to come out, so he waits until a whole season is posted and then binges.
Click to expand...
Yet another commonality we have. I just watched the whole thing start to finish tonight.

I'd give the series 3/5. Decent enough watch, despite some awkward and clumsy moments, and some pacing problems. But better than a lot of the fare put out that was MCU-adjacent.


#96

Tiger Tsang

Tiger Tsang

GasBandit said:
Yet another commonality we have. I just watched the whole thing start to finish tonight.

I'd give the series 3/5. Decent enough watch, despite some awkward and clumsy moments, and some pacing problems. But better than a lot of the fare put out that was MCU-adjacent.
Click to expand...
Well, as has been said before, the Covid thing kind of screwed up their planned story. Kind of like the uncertainty of a 5th season on B5 messed up the 4th and 5th season.


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