The Falcon and The Winter Soldier Spoiler Thread
- Thread starter Shawn
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Just a little correction but Bucky does have powers close to Steve's level. HYDRA used a reverse engineered version of the Super Soldier Serum to give Bucky enhanced strength and speed. It's why he can run faster then a car and can survive a fall out of a plane. They just like to focus more on the fact he has a cool robot arm and likes guns, so that he overlaps less with Steve.
Ah, I actually wasn't aware of that. I THINK in the comics, he doesn't have any powers and that's what I equated it with. I didn't realize he had a form of Super Soldier Serum in him. But it's been a long while since I last watched Winter Soldier.
I agree and disagree on a few things with your list, but I wanted to go over a few key things.
Honestly, I like this development, because it filled in what I felt was one of Zemo's biggest plot holes in CACW. HOW did he get all that shit he got?
The dude got a super realistic mask of Bucky, a full sized EMP device, access to top secret classified information, a bomb able to blow up a UN building, able to sneak into a high security fortress looking nothing like the doctor he was impersonating, and then a personal flight to Siberia? They never explained how an "Ex-Sokovian Special Forces" guy could pull off all this shit. Did he just have a lot of savings? Did he steal it all from HYDRA? Now we finally know, the dude was basically bad guy Bruce Wayne.
As for his personality, you have to realize that he was going through the five stages of grief in Civil War. By the time we meet him, he was in the anger stage, wanting to just kill anyone that got in his way of his revenge. By the end, he hit depression, deciding to take his life, because none of his money or power meant anything to him without his family. He has now had almost a decade (assuming he was not snapped) to reach acceptance, and now we are meeting the true Zemo. Still hates meta-humans though.
She won't be.
She is 100% working for Nick Fury as one of his ground ops. If she was actually the Power Broker, she wouldn't have put them within a hundred feet of the doctor that cracked the Super Serum code, nor would she have worked so hard defending them from the bounty hunters. I mean, think about it, HOW DID SHE KNOW Bucky and Sam were at the bar in the first place? How did she know she was going to have to setup a sniper nest to kill the bar owner and any people pursuing the trio? Her change in personality is either trying to retain her cover as a hardened criminal, or because she has one or more Skrulls working for her that are filling in for her. Remember the weird bikers and other dudes that just randomly seemed to fire into the air while the trio was running from the bar? Ten bucks those were Skrulls just trying to cause confusion.
My theory? The Power Broker is Thunderbolt Ross. The dude's entire career was attempting to recreate Super Soldiers. It was working on this that caused Bruce Banner to accidently turn himself into the Hulk, and they showed later he even had dozens of Super Soldier Serum canisters, some of which he used on Emil Blonsky and likely came from Isiah. I won't even go into the Raft being the perfect off the grid location to imprison and experiment on meta-humans that break the law. Then the blip came, and the government collapsed, and Thaddeus had to figure out a new way to keep up his obsessions.
My theory? The Power Broker is Thunderbolt Ross. The dude's entire career was attempting to recreate Super Soldiers. It was working on this that caused Bruce Banner to accidently turn himself into the Hulk, and they showed later he even had dozens of Super Soldier Serum canisters, some of which he used on Emil Blonsky and likely came from Isiah. I won't even go into the Raft being the perfect off the grid location to imprison and experiment on meta-humans that break the law. Then the blip came, and the government collapsed, and Thaddeus had to figure out a new way to keep up his obsessions.
It can be easy to miss because they do focus on his metal arm a lot, and of course later on he just used a gun all the time in IW and Endgame. His best examples of his super abilities are when he kicked a dude fifty yards into a jet turbine in Winter Soldier, or pretty much the entire chase scene in Civil War where he is just jumping off seven story buildings or outran cars on the freeway.
(P.S I never even noticed this before, but he just grabs TChalla out of the air into a choke with his REGULAR arm at the 2 minute mark.)
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Of course, in the comics (well, in 616), Steve technically doesn't have any superpowers either.
All of his abilities are just peak human, so there should be people out there that can lift as much as he can, run as fast, have the same reflexes, be able to throw his shield like he does etc. He just can do it all at the same time without spending as much time training for each.
I hate how Zemo manages to escape down a manhole and is gone for just a few moments and all three of the groups give up on finding him. It's like "Oh no! He's gone. We'd have to be a group of highly trained warrior women from a technologically advanced civilization, or a man hunting super soldier, or a war hero with surveillance and speed-enhancing gadgets to be able to find him. What will we ever do?"
Hard disagree, this episode was the best yet, and everyone has reasons for what they're doing, and the point is looking at what ends justify what means.
Carli wants to unite the world but she's using the serum to establish supremacy to get there.
Walker thinks the serum will help him save more people, but he couldn't even save Hoskins. And lashing out in public view of the world is going to have consequences, and it's only going to get worse for him.
Zemo had the serum in his hands but destroyed it anyway, sticking to his ideals, but thinks murdering every super solder is the only path to peace.
Sam relates to Carli's ideals but not her methods, understands Zemo's point but won't let him kill anyone to get there, and understands Walker's position (more than Walker does, for sure), but is at odds with his perspective.
Bucky gets the Dora Milaje's concerns about Zemo but needed him to stop the Flagsmashers.
The Dora Milaje don't care about politics, only justice.
Carli wants to unite the world but she's using the serum to establish supremacy to get there.
Walker thinks the serum will help him save more people, but he couldn't even save Hoskins. And lashing out in public view of the world is going to have consequences, and it's only going to get worse for him.
Zemo had the serum in his hands but destroyed it anyway, sticking to his ideals, but thinks murdering every super solder is the only path to peace.
Sam relates to Carli's ideals but not her methods, understands Zemo's point but won't let him kill anyone to get there, and understands Walker's position (more than Walker does, for sure), but is at odds with his perspective.
Bucky gets the Dora Milaje's concerns about Zemo but needed him to stop the Flagsmashers.
The Dora Milaje don't care about politics, only justice.
I'm in the same boat, but I think a lot of that comes from WandaVision subverting expectations and playing around with the format. This feels a lot more like your usual Marvel movie, so I'm entertained but not as hyped for "What are they going to do next??".
WandaVision was playing around with cosmic, COSMIC, levels of power.
This show is featuring characters that by themselves, would have fit in with the Netflix shows as far as power levels.
This show is featuring characters that by themselves, would have fit in with the Netflix shows as far as power levels.
I for one welcome the Zemo show
I liked this review:
The AV Club: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier Returns to Form
The AV Club: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier Returns to Form
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I honestly am loving the show, but I do feel like there are a bit too many subplots racing around right now. WandaVision was great because it was so focused around Wanda, and even the side plot with the people outside were focused on Wanda. We didn't even get a real villain reveal until the show was nearly over.
FATWS just has a lot going on. Sam and his regrets with the Shield, Bucky attempting to recover and be normal, John attempting to live up to his name and losing his marbles, Karli on her crusade to unite the world, Zemo on his crusade to kill Karli, and now the Dora Milaje on their crusade to capture Zemo. Then you have to stuff Sharon in there sometimes. We still barely know anything about the Power Broker, even though they keep talking about him. I really feel like it needs to try to breath sometimes, as each episode is attempting to push forward like four or five different plot trees.
Again I am having a blast with the show, but I really wish it would take a second to let us really calm down and take stuff in a bit.
FATWS just has a lot going on. Sam and his regrets with the Shield, Bucky attempting to recover and be normal, John attempting to live up to his name and losing his marbles, Karli on her crusade to unite the world, Zemo on his crusade to kill Karli, and now the Dora Milaje on their crusade to capture Zemo. Then you have to stuff Sharon in there sometimes. We still barely know anything about the Power Broker, even though they keep talking about him. I really feel like it needs to try to breath sometimes, as each episode is attempting to push forward like four or five different plot trees.
Again I am having a blast with the show, but I really wish it would take a second to let us really calm down and take stuff in a bit.
Yeah, it really feels like there's a LOT going on all at once and maybe too many characters all involved at the same time. I realized that when there were FIVE people all going after Karli at once (Sam, Bucky, Zemo, Walker, Hoskins). Kinda surprised how quickly Hoskins died. Though I noticed that Walker didn't take the lead when they went in, which you would figure the DUDE WITH THE SHIELD would. Steve would've taken point and that just further shows the difference between the two. To say nothing of the ending.
I am still trying to figure out what Walker was even doing in that scene. He stops moving while Hoskins continues on up. At first I thought he saw something, but they never show what he saw, so I can only assume he was having a brain aneurysm from taking the Super Soldier serum and that's why he just kind of stopped and aimlessly looked around while his friend was kidnapped.
Also, the minute that one guy had that little heart to heart with Karli, I knew she was going to die. The same thing happened in a past episode where the one guy that supported her at the safe house sacrificed himself at the airport. What I didn't expect was he would admit to being a childhood fan of Captain America, only to get his face smashed in by Captain America's shield. Talk about ghastly
Also, the minute that one guy had that little heart to heart with Karli, I knew she was going to die. The same thing happened in a past episode where the one guy that supported her at the safe house sacrificed himself at the airport. What I didn't expect was he would admit to being a childhood fan of Captain America, only to get his face smashed in by Captain America's shield. Talk about ghastly
If it's the part I think you're talking about, I thought he was listening for any kind of movement. He bursts through the door and it's silent, then waits to hear anything to tell him which way to go.
I think he was talking about the bit just prior to that, when they were ascending the stairs. Walker comes in with his shield up, Hoskins moves past him up the stairs. Walker pauses for a bit while Hoskins then disappears. Walker should have been moving directly after Hoskins got to the landing.
That's the part, yes. He just stops ascending the stairs and just looks around for awhile before going "Hoskins?" like he somehow didn't notice Hoskins continued going up the stairs.
One other little aside but I was really happy Zemo smashed most of the serum. It's fine for some characters to grow or change, but Zemo is almost entirely defined by the strength of his convictions. Having him hold literal power in his hands and then destroying it was perfect and fits with the Zemo we know that shot a bunch of sleeping super soldiers in the head during CACW, and I am glad they didn't try to do some twistaroo where he wanted to be a super soldier now.
figmentPez
Staff member
Two thoughts I've been talking about Kags about when it comes to symbolism in this show:
Zemo is the anti-White Witch of Narnia. She wanted eternal winter, he wants to end the Winter Solider (well, the meta-human threat that program represents). She tried to get rid of all humans, Zemo wants to get rid of all magical creatures (I'm assuming Zemo is no happier about Asgardians and sorcerers than he is about super soliders). They both use Turkish delights to manipulate children, though. I will be irrationally angry if none of these parallels occurred to the writers and the Turkish delights were just an old fashioned candy with no other significance.
Karli is the physical antithesis of Steve/Cap when it comes to the Aryan/Nazi standard of beauty. She's mixed-raced, red haired, freckled, big nosed, and female. Don't get me wrong, she's flippin' gorgeous, but she's as polar opposite from white, blue-eyed, blonde dude as you can get without being fat and disfigured. I think it's really brilliant casting to play up that angle, and I'm glad they found such a strong actor who also had the right look.
Zemo is the anti-White Witch of Narnia. She wanted eternal winter, he wants to end the Winter Solider (well, the meta-human threat that program represents). She tried to get rid of all humans, Zemo wants to get rid of all magical creatures (I'm assuming Zemo is no happier about Asgardians and sorcerers than he is about super soliders). They both use Turkish delights to manipulate children, though. I will be irrationally angry if none of these parallels occurred to the writers and the Turkish delights were just an old fashioned candy with no other significance.
Karli is the physical antithesis of Steve/Cap when it comes to the Aryan/Nazi standard of beauty. She's mixed-raced, red haired, freckled, big nosed, and female. Don't get me wrong, she's flippin' gorgeous, but she's as polar opposite from white, blue-eyed, blonde dude as you can get without being fat and disfigured. I think it's really brilliant casting to play up that angle, and I'm glad they found such a strong actor who also had the right look.
OK, so based on the above I looked up Erin Kellyman (the actress playing karli). I was curious what mixed race combination manages to keep red hair - it's exceedlingly rare because of the recessive nature of the gene.
Anyway, she's Irish-Jamaican, fair enough, curiosity ended.
Now, in looking it up, I ended up on https://biowikis.com/erin-kellyman/ . Seemingly a fairly basic informatieve site. But then I was reading and.....ugh. "a perfectly shaped, slim body", and more descriptors like that, just make me feel unclean by association.
Gonna say this again, but of course spoiler it just in case I am right.
Sharon is working for Nick Fury. Ever since episode one, I have been wondering why Bartoc was attempting to kidnap a single US soldier. Under the context that he did it for Sharon, it makes a lot more sense to me. Why? Well remember, this isn't the first time Bartoc was specifically hired on as a smoke screen for Nick Fury. In "The Winter Soldier", Nick Fury covertly hires Bartoc to commandeer the SHIELD ship at the beginning. He uses the chaos of that fight to have Natasha steal secret intelligence that Fury knew was off limits to him. That intelligence was what lead to them sending the Winter Soldier to attempt to kill him before he could decrypt it. Now that we know Sharon is involved both with that kidnapping event, and sending Bartoc to help Karli, I have a feeling that Fury is either attempting to test Sam's abilities, has some other motive to root out the Power Broker, or is stressing the GRC to root out corruption. Will be interesting to see what it ends up being.
My other big theory was that Thaddeus Ross is the Power Broker, but the fact Zemo is now on his way to the Raft makes me wonder if I was wrong on that. It's no coincidence that they name dropped that place on purpose, because in the comics both Zemo and Ross have been leaders of the group known as the Thunderbolts. I assumed they would play up Ross' obsession with creating a new super soldier, but I also realize after the Hulk incident, and the fact he was behind the Sokovia Accords, it's much more likely he mentally aligns with Zemo when it comes to super powered people. As such my theory has changed. I don't think we are even going to find out who the Power Broker is this series, but they might tease him for an upcoming series instead. I still don't think it's going to be Sharon.
My other big theory was that Thaddeus Ross is the Power Broker, but the fact Zemo is now on his way to the Raft makes me wonder if I was wrong on that. It's no coincidence that they name dropped that place on purpose, because in the comics both Zemo and Ross have been leaders of the group known as the Thunderbolts. I assumed they would play up Ross' obsession with creating a new super soldier, but I also realize after the Hulk incident, and the fact he was behind the Sokovia Accords, it's much more likely he mentally aligns with Zemo when it comes to super powered people. As such my theory has changed. I don't think we are even going to find out who the Power Broker is this series, but they might tease him for an upcoming series instead. I still don't think it's going to be Sharon.
Well, ya know...
When you think about it what reference did we have? Steve was the first person use it, and immediately started using it as a frisbee weapon. We all just assumed that was Steve's skill or strength, but it could have always been that the vibranium composition of the shield simply made it do what it does, and Steve figured this out quickly after taking it into combat.
figmentPez
Staff member
I mean, no, they're incredibly unflattering on pretty much every body type, but yeah, at least two functional pockets make me jealous.