The Internet will never satisfy its lust for Net Neutrality and Bandwidth

This article raises the very good point that the Amazon/Google "dust-up" with streaming devices only weakens their position with regards to Net Neutrality: (emphasis mine)
We’re witnessing the worst kind of petty bickering from two tech giants, and consumers are taking the brunt of this escalating feud. If that’s not embarassing enough, the companies are already being mocked by industry groups in favor of dismantling net neutrality. USTelecom wasted little time in piling on. “Broadband ISPs are committed to providing an open internet for their customers, including protections like no content blocking or throttling,” CEO Jonathan Spalter said. “Seems like some of the biggest internet companies can’t say the same. Ironic, isn’t it?” This stubborn conflict is turning into fodder for FCC chairman Ajit Pai’s supporters.
@Gared and I mentioned this in another thread, but now it's "important" to this as well.

Get your acts together Amazon/Google. This will bite us ALL in the ass later (and I'm in Canada, and I think long-term USA going non-neutral is horrible for ME down the road).
 

figmentPez

Staff member
Actually, I think that whole fight makes it obvious why we need Net Neutrality. Big companies will inevitably end up using their customers as bargaining chips, and that's going to hurt free speech because of just how much the internet is capable of.

People feel "locked in" to using a >$100 device, when there are numerous other competing devices available, so much so that companies know they use that to their advantage. It's a case where people can move on, leave negative reviews, etc, but obviously they don't in large enough numbers to matter.

Then there's internet, where a number of people can't change to an equivalent service. Where changing services is often difficult, and frustrating, if you can manage to do it at all. Where you can't leave customer feedback where lots of people know to see it. Basically, none of the usual resources for promoting consumer awareness and choice exist. It's pretty obvious that in such a situation consumers are going to get screwed without protection.
 

figmentPez

Staff member


—Patrick
Cute, but it doesn't do anything to address the actual reasons why companies are greedy for wanting to charge more. To a lot of people, saying that ISPs want to charge more for some services is on the same level as companies charging more for First Class on a plane, overnight shipping, the collector's edition Blu-ray, etc. I need a video that explains why Net Neutrality is important, not just comedy about how awful it will be when we don't have it. I keep seeing videos that explain how it's important, but the presenters swear too much for me to present them to a conservative crowd.

Honestly, it's really hard to find good explanations of why Net Neutrality is not only preferable, but explaining why there's no technical or economic need for ISPs to try to recoup fees.
 
I need a video that explains why Net Neutrality is important, not just comedy about how awful it will be when we don't have it.
Here, this one was the third in the list:


But this one may be more ... relatable for them:

...though he does say "Hell" once.

--Patrick
 
Yeesh, and now a security evacuation break while they call in a K-9 unit.
Edit: And now the security break is over.
 

figmentPez

Staff member
Are the courts our only hope now? Or do we actually have some chance of the FTC doing something?

When this inevitably becomes a 1st amendment issue, I'm going to have the BIGGEST "I told you so" to a lot of people in my life.
 
Are the courts our only hope now? Or do we actually have some chance of the FTC doing something?

When this inevitably becomes a 1st amendment issue, I'm going to have the BIGGEST "I told you so" to a lot of people in my life.
Congress can override with a simple majority.
 
Net neutrality rules were put in place in February 2015, under three years ago.

I don't like that they're going away, but honestly all this panic is really overblown.

The FCC's new ruling does require that ISPs provide their customers with exactly how their managing their traffic, and even if they aren't clear we know that good technical people will out bad ISP actions.

It'll be awhile before anyone mounts a serious challenge to the ruling, so we will have some experience under it before they mess with it again.
 

figmentPez

Staff member
Hard to believe that the gov't is fucking with the engine that has made so much money for this country over the last 25 years.
I don't find it that hard to believe at all. I'm guessing there are a lot of politicians who:
1. Honestly believe that removing restrictions on business is for the best.
2. Know this will screw things over in the long run, but stand to make enough money from it that they don't care about what will happen to other people, possibly after they're dead.
3. Don't understand how the internet is any different from cable TV, and think that everyone is whining about entertainment.[DOUBLEPOST=1513284459,1513284068][/DOUBLEPOST]
Net neutrality rules were put in place in February 2015, under three years ago.
Far later than they should have been, but a lot of people are slow to realize just how powerful the internet is when it comes to freedom of speech and innovation in all areas of science, business, etc.

Net Neutrality wasn't put in place 3 years ago on a whim. It was a recognition of the long term plans of ISPs to stifle competition in businesses, and to control the spread of information. It wasn't just a case of "just in case we need it", Net Neutrality was an absolute necessity that was being put in place to prevent changes that had already started to be implemented.

The FCC's new ruling does require that ISPs provide their customers with exactly how their managing their traffic, and even if they aren't clear we know that good technical people will out bad ISP actions.
And what good will that do? A lot of people can't change ISPs to an equivalent service.
 
And what good will that do? A lot of people can't change ISPs to an equivalent service.
As we reach saturation of the 4G LTE network and start rolling out 5G networks (right now a few carriers are rolling out pre-5g, or 4.5g, but 5G is still just over the horizon) I suspect this will become a non issue except for very rural areas.

But 90% of the population will have several choices with reasonable speeds, and the carriers will have to compete, particularly since they're largely unbundled from lengthy contracts now, and most will pay the broken contract fees when switching.

That said, yes, there's going to be a lot of pain as they all try to figure out what they can get away with and what they can surcharge for.[DOUBLEPOST=1513284928,1513284881][/DOUBLEPOST]
...but they must do so within 60 days, according to the procedure for the Congressional Review Act.

--Patrick
I don't think that's going to happen. The majority of the republicans appear to support the ISPs.
 

figmentPez

Staff member
As we reach saturation of the 4G LTE network and start rolling out 5G networks (right now a few carriers are rolling out pre-5g, or 4.5g, but 5G is still just over the horizon) I suspect this will become a non issue except for very rural areas.
You really think that the data caps and pricing for wireless are going to be practical for most people compared to wired internet? They won't be, not if any significant number of people try to switch to a wireless carrier from landline for streaming, downloading games, etc.

EDIT: Dammit, something went wrong ate my edit. Retyping.

Anyway, I laugh at your optimistic ideas about cellular coverage. I live right next to a major highway, close to a hospital and a college, across from a shopping center for one of Houston's larger and more affluent suburbs. I'd describe my cell coverage as spotty, at best. Right now I'm getting 2 bars out of 5, and it's not even registering as LTE. If I'm away from WiFi in this area (at the college, shopping, out to lunch) I struggle to even load basic webpages. If I had to rely on cellular data for internet, I wouldn't be able to stream video, I wouldn't be able to download large games, I would have trouble even just browsing Halforums. Cellular is NOT equivalent to landline.
 
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You really think that the data caps and pricing for wireless are going to be practical for most people compared to wired internet? They won't be, not if any significant number of people try to switch to a wireless carrier from landline for streaming, downloading games, etc.
The carriers are experimenting with unlimited plans again. I got on board when ATT started theirs up earlier this year, and I'm grandfathered in now that they've altered it significantly. I generally use about 500GB per month and still get better speed than my terrible DSL I had before.

As I said, as the bandwidth grows, they will want to compete with comcast, cox, and other landline services. Customers are clamoring for them, they will eventually provide products suitable for that market.

No, it won't happen immediately. Yes, there's going to be a lot of pain. Yes, some people will be at the mercy of their provider with little real choice.

That's already occurring, though, in terms of raw speeds. We were lucky to convince the DSL provider to change their settings to allow 3mbit/s on our line even though we were "too far away" according to their tables. We had no other reasonable choice until ATT rolled out their plan, and I was seriously considering rolling my own fiber.

Those underserved people are going to remain underserved, and the fight about net neutrality already rang hollow with them because they don't get enough internet to worry about whether netflix is slower - it's only going to come at them at 480p no matter which ISP is fighting with netflix.

Everyone else will have multiple choices. I could choose between comcast and att DSL at all my previous residences, and they were competitive.

I don't think the net neutrality fight will really make or break those that only have one choice, so I don't think it's worth crafting national regulations based on such a small portion of the population.

As such it's not worth arging about the people who don't have choice.

What's worth arguing about is collusion - whether intentional or undirected - such that even if you have multiple choices it doesn't matter.

It's worth arguing about whether this may stimulate competition because - perhaps - ISPs will have something more to compete about rather than just bandwidth. Maybe your two choices provide the same speeds, but one includes HBO now for the same cost. You never watch HBO, but it's "more" so you might choose it, and the ISP is able to gain a customer it wouldn't have otherwise.

I don't know.

Let's see.

Mostly my apathy for this is high simply because I'm already underserved.

It's like the big kids arguing over the thanksgiving feast while I'm stuck at the kids table with the macaroni and cheese.

For all the words spilled over the poor and underprivileged, I don't think this fight is about them, nor will it truly affect them. It's about the big players trying to get money from each other - comcast wanting a piece of netflix's pie, and so forth.

And before you pretend netflix or any other internet company is an innocent party, they are an 8 billion dollar a year company and will do anything to protect that from others.

Maybe consumers will lose. I guess we will find out.
 
I expect Colorado to get another migration flood as more cities here start building city utility internet.
I'm expecting city utility internet to take off, at least in those states that allow it. And as long as tech companies make it priority, I suspect more states will make it possible.

We just had a township nearby approve a millage for fiber to every single home in the township (about 40 square miles, with 4,000 people). It'll still be run by a corporation, and I bet comcast, ATT, or someone else will come knocking at the door to buy it after it's built, but the provisions of the millage have some requirements regarding cost, and other riders which would still apply to anyone running the network.

My township is only 2,000 people, so while the millage would be the same, effective cost would be two times per household, so I'm not holding my breath. But there are about 3 groups in my general area all working on fiber projects.

Eventually whatever the corporations don't provide, the people will build for themselves.
 

figmentPez

Staff member
I'm expecting city utility internet to take off, at least in those states that allow it. And as long as tech companies make it priority, I suspect more states will make it possible.
And any places that try it will most likely get sued by ISPs, as they have every single time it's been done in the past. Why do we have to put up with this bullshit over and over and over?
 
And any places that try it will most likely get sued by ISPs, as they have every single time it's been done in the past. Why do we have to put up with this bullshit over and over and over?
It's working out here so far, albeit in only one city. But it's working very well for them.
 
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