The Zoe Quinn sex-for-reviews scandal
- Thread starter GasBandit
- Start date
Necronic
Staff member
I wasn't really following this thread since (due to the title) it's not one I would click at work. I think I commented in the first page or two and forgot about it. Now I come back and there are 17 pages.
This whole thing flowered from such a small bud into such a massive bouquet of embarrassment for the gaming community. For years I've been somewhat defiantly proud of being a geek/gamer. I don't think I can do that anymore, because this whole thing has shown me how truly immature and pathetic large swathes of the community are.
It's made me realize that the stereotype of the socially distinctionl basement dwelling neck beard isn't some hyperbolic exaggeration. This really is what a lot of the people are like. It's like a neverneverland of MRAs and SJWs and a lot of people who are just...bad people. People who chose to not grow up, not just in that they retained their imagination and creativity (the positive side I defended for years), but also they chose never to become a functioning member of society, and falsely conflate this inadequacy of their own humanity with their imaginative/creative wonders.
This whole thing disgusts me. The one saving grace I find is in this forum itself, where we are thoughtful and reasonable, but are we just an oasis in a sea of pathetic half-people? People say that we only ever hear the loud ones, so am I getting a false sense of the real community?
Honestly I don't know. I know if I were to look at the comments section of any news article I would be awash with the mentally ill, but in this case I don't feel like it's kept there. I see it everywhere I look now.
To the peter pans out there: it's time to grow the fuck up.
This whole thing flowered from such a small bud into such a massive bouquet of embarrassment for the gaming community. For years I've been somewhat defiantly proud of being a geek/gamer. I don't think I can do that anymore, because this whole thing has shown me how truly immature and pathetic large swathes of the community are.
It's made me realize that the stereotype of the socially distinctionl basement dwelling neck beard isn't some hyperbolic exaggeration. This really is what a lot of the people are like. It's like a neverneverland of MRAs and SJWs and a lot of people who are just...bad people. People who chose to not grow up, not just in that they retained their imagination and creativity (the positive side I defended for years), but also they chose never to become a functioning member of society, and falsely conflate this inadequacy of their own humanity with their imaginative/creative wonders.
This whole thing disgusts me. The one saving grace I find is in this forum itself, where we are thoughtful and reasonable, but are we just an oasis in a sea of pathetic half-people? People say that we only ever hear the loud ones, so am I getting a false sense of the real community?
Honestly I don't know. I know if I were to look at the comments section of any news article I would be awash with the mentally ill, but in this case I don't feel like it's kept there. I see it everywhere I look now.
To the peter pans out there: it's time to grow the fuck up.
The problem with this is that even if people were found with guns on their person, if they have a concealed weapons permit they're allowed to carry. And, it's Utah, a lot of us have guns out here.
I feel especially terrible about the threats against Anita because they came from my hometown. She was set to give her conference up at USU which is where Nate is going to school, and I'm pretty sickened that I live in a place where someone would make a threat like that. I confess I'm a little nervous with Nate being up on campus today.
Necronic
Staff member
The death threats, and more importantly the way the death threats are treated by members of the community may be the biggest blow to me.
The idea that people need to downplay them as a tool for making her seem like some shrill drama queen is just fucking mind bogglingly disgusting to me.
Ironically her simple existence and the community's reaction to her has done more to illuminate the extreme sexism in the community than any of her work has.
The idea that people need to downplay them as a tool for making her seem like some shrill drama queen is just fucking mind bogglingly disgusting to me.
Ironically her simple existence and the community's reaction to her has done more to illuminate the extreme sexism in the community than any of her work has.
Remember when Jack Thompson was getting death threats? The gaming community sure has a habit of making them.
GasBandit
Staff member
There are a lot of sexists and misogynists who play video games, that's for sure.
But that's different than Sarkeesian's main assertion, which is that video games are sexist and misogynist by design.
I didn't know she'd done other ones. I wonder exactly what was so different with this one.
I just don't like giving in, and though I don't agree with everything Sarkeesian says, I support what she's doing. That makes it hard to stomach when we get a "terrorists win" situation like this, where the threats trump the principles.
I'll admit; I'm weak with this stuff. Sometimes I hesitate posting feminist stuff on my blog out of fear of losing subscribers, but I say fuck it and post it anyway. I'm not saying one should be so reckless with one's life, but I don't like letting these tools and their threats have even a single victory.
Necronic
Staff member
That's sort of why the death threats them self don't bother me as much as the reaction. There will always be crazy people who make death threats given a large enough audience. I could argue that coke is better than Pepsi in the wrong audience and get a death threat. But the reaction to those seems far more fucked up in this case.
Anyways. Ran across an interesting example of what bothers me so damned much. Apparently some kid made a flash game where you can beat up Sarkeesian leaving her with black eyes and whatnot, it's pretty foul.
I'm assuming (based on pictures) the author is pretty young, like late teens. And that got me thinking of some of the things I said at that age, and they weren't good. I had the good luck, however, to be of an age that the internet and social networking was pretty limited when I made those mistakes.
This is important because without that outlet I bounced my ideas off of people around me, who came from all ages and walks of life, and (not surprisingly) was heavily challenged for them.
But this kid, in the age of the twitterverse etc is able to have his views selectively supported by the niche cross-section of the world audience that supports his views. He can litter ally hashtag his views. I'll be honest, if at that young age I was able to bounce my views into the echo chamber of the internet where they weren't challenged (or more appropriately were filtered and selectively reinforced), I might have started to really believe them myself.
Check out his twitter feed if you want, it's Ben Spurr. What really bothers me in that feed is the reinforcement he's getting from people my own age who are old enough to know better (like Mike Cernovich), and he HAS to weight that high in confirming his views.
The other "side" isn't much better (ok it's definitely better but still fucked up). Google his name and you get an article by gameranx.com which calls him out (fine) and then chooses to give his full name and where he lives. What was the purpose of that, exactly? In an article that rightly criticizes releasing Anita Sarkeesians home address as a disturbing call to action how are we to interpret this? This is not sophisticated journalism, in the slightest. This is the same type of juvenile shit.
I dunno. I'm just...fuck I'm glad I'm old enough to know better. I'll be god damned if my kids grow up online.[DOUBLEPOST=1413414231,1413414042][/DOUBLEPOST]
Never attribute to malice what can first be attributed to incompetence. Games are sexist. No doubt. But my guess is that this is because games are made by gamers, and a lot of them are sexist. Not too different from Hollywood really.
Anyways. Ran across an interesting example of what bothers me so damned much. Apparently some kid made a flash game where you can beat up Sarkeesian leaving her with black eyes and whatnot, it's pretty foul.
I'm assuming (based on pictures) the author is pretty young, like late teens. And that got me thinking of some of the things I said at that age, and they weren't good. I had the good luck, however, to be of an age that the internet and social networking was pretty limited when I made those mistakes.
This is important because without that outlet I bounced my ideas off of people around me, who came from all ages and walks of life, and (not surprisingly) was heavily challenged for them.
But this kid, in the age of the twitterverse etc is able to have his views selectively supported by the niche cross-section of the world audience that supports his views. He can litter ally hashtag his views. I'll be honest, if at that young age I was able to bounce my views into the echo chamber of the internet where they weren't challenged (or more appropriately were filtered and selectively reinforced), I might have started to really believe them myself.
Check out his twitter feed if you want, it's Ben Spurr. What really bothers me in that feed is the reinforcement he's getting from people my own age who are old enough to know better (like Mike Cernovich), and he HAS to weight that high in confirming his views.
The other "side" isn't much better (ok it's definitely better but still fucked up). Google his name and you get an article by gameranx.com which calls him out (fine) and then chooses to give his full name and where he lives. What was the purpose of that, exactly? In an article that rightly criticizes releasing Anita Sarkeesians home address as a disturbing call to action how are we to interpret this? This is not sophisticated journalism, in the slightest. This is the same type of juvenile shit.
I dunno. I'm just...fuck I'm glad I'm old enough to know better. I'll be god damned if my kids grow up online.[DOUBLEPOST=1413414231,1413414042][/DOUBLEPOST]
Never attribute to malice what can first be attributed to incompetence. Games are sexist. No doubt. But my guess is that this is because games are made by gamers, and a lot of them are sexist. Not too different from Hollywood really.
http://augmented-vision.co.uk/2014/10/what-are-you-afraid-of/
My friend wrote this good thing, please don't threaten to kill him at all, if you read it or not. Thanks!
My friend wrote this good thing, please don't threaten to kill him at all, if you read it or not. Thanks!
It's really good.
I swear, if you say #GamerGate three times into a mirror, a tin-foil hat wearing white male gamer will appear and tell you all about conspiracies and how you're wrong about everything.
Seriously, over the last few days, I've said a few things about GamerGate on Twitter and every time - EVERY time - at least half a dozen strangers jump on it to defend themselves and their "cause."
Seriously, over the last few days, I've said a few things about GamerGate on Twitter and every time - EVERY time - at least half a dozen strangers jump on it to defend themselves and their "cause."
GasBandit
Staff member
Dude, you're an author. A public figure. You weigh in publicly on a politically charged matter, you're gonna get a response.
"What are you afraid of?"
I think I already articulated that in this post.
Basically, I'm "afraid," if you want to call it that, that developers will overestimate the amount of sway this extremely vocal minority has, and will alter their future development to cater to it just as people in real life have to cater to (and pay off) racism pimps like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson. I've pointed out that the specific examples used to decry sexism in games is fallacious and incorrect, and the last thing we want is the artistry of game making (and we ARE all in agreement that video games are art, aren't we?) to be warped by the artist feeling they have a metaphorical social justice gun to the back of their head while they sculpt, so that the questions "which tumblr snowflakes will this trigger?" will be foremost in their mind while they design content. It starts out with little asinine changes like a ban on midriff-baring armor and moves on to robot boss enemies stopping down from gameplay/plot to point out they identify as bi-gender and insisting on being referred to by the proper xe/xim pronouns, next thing you know there's an unwritten law that X number of minutes of your game has to be devoted to pushing unskippable social awareness content, or something like that. And all the while, the incestuous, collusive clique of game journalists and forum moderators will continue to manufacture "journalism" content and mass delete discussion so as to shape the narrative that all this is a good thing.
Basically, I'm concerned that largely terrible examples of a problem that isn't really that much of a problem will be used by small but loud and loudly supported professional social justice patreon mercenaries to erode the quality of gamecrafting (however questionable that quality may already be at times), and that the gaming-related website owners, moderators and authors with which they have personal relationships (not necessarily sexual, just personal) will carry the water to help them do it.
CHORUS OF OLD PEOPLE: [shouting] One of us! One of us!
CHORUS OF OLD PEOPLE: [shouting intensifies]
[DOUBLEPOST=1413471528,1413471312][/DOUBLEPOST]
I also view video games as a "safe" place to indulge in otherwise inappropriate behavior in order to get it out of your system so that it does not spill over into real life.
I realize this is becoming more difficult what with "forced" multiplayer and the inability of some people to segregate reality v. virtual reality.
--Patrick
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I'm an incredibly small-time, nobody author (so far) with less than 200 followers. I'm barely a public figure.
fade
Staff member
I've been trying to find out more about GamerGate, and all I see are nasty, misogynist comments from the so-called vocal minority. If this is the minority, the majority is apparently so silent they're not even talking. Also at this point, it seems like any potentially (?) valid points have been superseded and co-opted by this so-called minority.
GasBandit
Staff member
In other words, the internet.
My, what an opinion you must hold about organized religions!
Techraptor's got some pretty good coverage though, if you really want to know more.
I'm an actual nobody who just seems to talk with/be friends with several semi-high profile people. Folks invested in this are still perfectly willing to shit all over me. For instance, I'm kind of a "bullshit filter" for J.J. McCullough (I'm told he's big in Canada) and just the other day he asked about Gamer Gate and if he should say something. My response was basically "Don't bother. It's typical liberal/conservative shit. You'll just get bored and become the target of assholes on both sides." Within 5 minutes I had a bunch of Anti-GGs proclaiming it was a false equivalency because their side wasn't harassing people. After I pointed out that this was completely untrue, they moved the goal posts and said that it was okay because they still weren't as bad the other guys and it was for a good cause. I said no... just because you aren't as bad as actual monsters (because that's what the rape/death threat people are) doesn't mean you are guiltless and it's just poisoning people against them.
At that point they defended sending syringes and doxxing by asserting I was claiming that I was essentially saying that it was all equal, so I must think that the US was/is just as bad as ISIS and Nazi Germany. Yes, I was ACTUALLY Godwinned in a political debate IN FRONT OF AN ACTUAL CABLE NEWS POLITICAL PUNDIT. And then these guys (who sought me out to harass me) blocked me... as if I'd care.
J.J.'s response was basically "OKAy... yeah, this isn't worth my time. I'm not going to validate anyone by engaging them on this. Thanks for the warning."
My point in all of this? It doesn't matter how small fry you are. Everyone on both sides of this is so full of themselves that ANYTHING goes.
EDIT: Here's a great article that touches on why it's important for the Anti Gamer Gate folks to stop lowering themselves.
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if you have JJ's ear, please tell him to never speak again and move to the mountains and stop bothering people. He is a massive shitlord. His putrid brand of neo-conservatism percolated for years on Kurtz's-other-killed-forum-that-I-came-from long ago before he got bigger.
If you're a figure at all, that's what you are. My webcomic only had about 200 daily readers, but I still get the occasional someone messaging me about it 10 years after I started it, 8 years after I quit. You get into this stuff and make things for people to read/consume, you're in it for the long haul.
Coming from you, that's practically a compliment. He's ether mellowed since or you're exaggerating, because he's positively tame compared to American conservatives.
You know, this presents an interesting opportunity for a social experiment.
1) set up a fake twitter / tumblr / social media of choice account with a feminine-sounding name
2) post something like the following statement: "Gaming journalism is too deeply enmeshed with developers, but I don't think threatening rape and murder is the answer. #Gamergate"
3) see how long it takes before you are threatened with rape and murder.
1) set up a fake twitter / tumblr / social media of choice account with a feminine-sounding name
2) post something like the following statement: "Gaming journalism is too deeply enmeshed with developers, but I don't think threatening rape and murder is the answer. #Gamergate"
3) see how long it takes before you are threatened with rape and murder.
have you seen some of his comics? he's QUITE a racist.
and this popped up recently and speaks for itself:
Sun is basically Fox News North
I want to do that but... too much work to make it half-believable...
I would think that a brand new account would fail to get noticed over all the noise/rage.
Also they already know the tricks because they've been using them to make fake SJW accounts to pose as SJW's and make them look bad / muddy the message / spread lies / etc etc etc.
BUT IT'S JUST ABOUT JOURNALISM ETHICS
BUT IT'S JUST ABOUT JOURNALISM ETHICS
figmentPez
Staff member
It would really help Sarkeesian's case if she would refrain from hyperbole:
http://www.feministfrequency.com/2010/05/bayonetta-innovative-advertising-or-sexual-harassment-training/
here's her actual back up / fully fleshed opinion.
from what I've seen of it, I don't think she's that far off
here's her actual back up / fully fleshed opinion.
from what I've seen of it, I don't think she's that far off
Sun News makes Fox seem reasonable.
