[News] US Capitol Siege 6 January 2021

figmentPez

Staff member

White nationalists want to blow up the Capitol and kill as many people as possible, at or around the time of the next State of the Union.
 
This has been a weird night.


Hey, that looks hilariously like Jay Johnston of Mr. Show, Sarah Silverman, Bob's Burgers, etc.

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Oh fuck. It legit might actually be him.

 
This has been a weird night.


Hey, that looks hilariously like Jay Johnston of Mr. Show, Sarah Silverman, Bob's Burgers, etc.

View attachment 37277

Oh fuck. It legit might actually be him.

FUCK, this is still unresolved with a few more ex-coworkers saying, "Yeah, probably."

Heart-breaking, I fucking love Jay in stuff and Mr. Show is literally my favourite comedy anything ever.

ALLLLLSSSSOOOOOOOOO


Laugh out loud. I love that this nazi piece of shit grows a shittier mustache than me.
 
FIRST of all, it's actually called a "toothbrush" mustache, not a "Hitler" mustache.
Second of all, you ain't lyin'. This looks like a mug shot taken after he got caught trying to get high by snorting the leftovers from a bag of Kingsford Match Light charcoal.

--Patrick
 
Uh huh. And the swastika is just a good luck charm from Tibet.

Look, I know being pedantic is your thing. But sometimes when something gets associated with a certain person or event, the name gets changed. And I know you know that.
Yes, and when people call all skinheads nazi's, and all toothbrush moustaches are Hitler 'staches, and everyone using the Flemish flag without the red tongue is by definition a racist, and so on and so forth, you're just quietly allowing the extremes to hijack and monopolize more and more symbols. Every symbol is being taken over, and it's a bad thing.

I mean, to be clear, in this instance I'm 100% convinced he was trying to grow a Hitler 'stache (and failing badly). But that doesn't mean we shouldn't still try to keep our vocabulary clean.
 
Yes, and when people call all skinheads nazi's, and all toothbrush moustaches are Hitler 'staches, and everyone using the Flemish flag without the red tongue is by definition a racist, and so on and so forth, you're just quietly allowing the extremes to hijack and monopolize more and more symbols. Every symbol is being taken over, and it's a bad thing.

I mean, to be clear, in this instance I'm 100% convinced he was trying to grow a Hitler 'stache (and failing badly). But that doesn't mean we shouldn't still try to keep our vocabulary clean.
1) Language evolves, and trying to stop what is essentially a flood of people (everyone is going to call that a "Hitler mustache") using a phrase a certain way, or attaching a newer meaning to words, is foolish. At some point it just becomes pedantic to cling to the etymology.

2) Slippery-slope fallacy is called a fallacy for a reason. To use one of my favorite southern terms, "that dog won't hunt." Just because some symbols have changed their meaning due to association does not mean that somehow every symbol is in danger of being co-opted. But it does happen to some symbols, and acknowledging that is not going to hurt.
 
I know being pedantic is your thing.
I'm never pedantic just to be pedantic. It's always done either with humorous intent or as a genuine attempt to educate.
But, like @Bubble181 says, the only way a hijacked symbol is ever going to shed its corrupted reputation is if people return to using it how it was originally meant [EDIT: Or give it an entirely new meaning]. Maintaining that a symbol can never change to shed its polluted association ignores the fact that it had to change to gain it in the first place.

--Patrick
 
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Some symbols, like the Hitler Mustache or the Nazi Swastika, will never lose it's association with something as horrible as the Holocaust. Nor should they. It is too important for us to remember what happened so that we can try to keep it from ever happening again.

I understand that there were meanings to some symbols prior to being co-opted and those meanings can still be used, but the new meanings should remain.

Other things, like the OK hand gesture should eventually go back to just meaning OK after this latest round of jackasses die out and people forget the meaning. But the swastika? No, sorry, that one is never going back.
 
1) Language evolves, and trying to stop what is essentially a flood of people (everyone is going to call that a "Hitler mustache") using a phrase a certain way, or attaching a newer meaning to words, is foolish. At some point it just becomes pedantic to cling to the etymology.
I've made this same argument years and years ago when people fought to keep the "hacker" term's "good" meaning, and fought to keep the term "cracker" for people who broke into systems.

Sometimes, there's just no fighting the tide, and you have to go with where the cultural zeitgeist takes the language. In more modern times, I still cringe every time I hear about a picture that's "cursed"...that bit of language change just gnaws at my soul. ;)
 
I understand that there were meanings to some symbols prior to being co-opted and those meanings can still be used, but the new meanings should remain.
I agree that the new meanings should be acknowledged, but I feel like there should be effort to revert or at least deemphasize the most egregious ones. I want them to get the "New Coke" treatment--everyone knows it happened, everyone agrees it was a bad idea, everyone went back to the "Classic" version and the "New" version, while not forgotten, was at least discontinued.

--Patrick
 
You can't really compare "New Coke" with "Genocide" though. I mean, it was bad, but not THAT bad.

The fact is, the horrors of the Holocaust are not likely to fade away until we are at least two generations removed from the people that experienced it. There are still people living today that lived the Holocaust, so it's best not to get "Well ACTUALLY..." about the naming of a mustache or the classical root meaning of the swastika.

Yes, some things will revert in meaning a hundred years from now, or hell, get new meanings, but I agree we can't really get pedantic about it because it disrespects the horrors those symbols still bring to living peoples nightmares.
 
You can't really compare "New Coke" with "Genocide" though. I mean, it was bad, but not THAT bad.

The fact is, the horrors of the Holocaust are not likely to fade away until we are at least two generations removed from the people that experienced it. There are still people living today that lived the Holocaust, so it's best not to get "Well ACTUALLY..." about the naming of a mustache or the classical root meaning of the swastika.

Yes, some things will revert in meaning a hundred years from now, or hell, get new meanings, but I agree we can't really get pedantic about it because it disrespects the horrors those symbols still bring to living peoples nightmares.
Which is
1) a purely emotional appeal which doesn't actually mean anything
2) is.. Without wanting to be offensive, like a white Woman getting upset in the name of a black guy for a racially charged joke he was okay with.
My grandparents were in the war, three of them were in camps (two work, one death - he survived), my great uncle was a Jew and was one of the "lucky" ones who got released from a death camp only to be taken to a Russian Gulag, and survive that as well. Nobody made horrible camping trip / chimney / soap / etc jokes like him and my grandfather.
3) flawed because, while there are still people alive, even so there's already plenty of people calling it overblown, fake, exaggerated, etc etc.

Look, I'm not saying I want the toothbrush mustache to come back into fashion or anything! Heck, I said nothing this time :p but we can't reduce Hitler - or the nazis - to a few main symbols. I'll even go further - the fact that we reduced the nazis as a whole to "bad folks who all just want to kill all Jews with some big crosses and ugly mustaches" is a big, big problem with how we've dealt with WWII.
It's not that "some nazis weren't so bad", it's that "most nazis didn't consider themselves bad". People don't consider themselves as bad as or similar to nazis! They would never operate a gas chamber! But, 99.9% of all nazis didn't and wouldn't, either. They just created an atmosphere where others saw that as a perfectly valid solution. Modern day propaganda about Muslims and black people is already as bad as anything about Jews the nazis ever put out - and what they say about gay people could just be carbon copied.
Hitlers mustache is like Trumps orangeness. It's an easy physical attribute to make fun of, but it's also something that makes him instantly recognizable. And while I'm not a fan of fake spray paint tan, I don't think being orange should suddenly man you're clearly a fascist.
 
Which is 1) a purely emotional appeal which doesn't actually mean anything
So you are saying we shouldn't take into account the emotional sensitivity of others? It's okay to appeal to emotion, as long as the emotion actually has gravity to it, like, you know, surviving genocide.

2) is.. Without wanting to be offensive, like a white Woman getting upset in the name of a black guy for a racially charged joke he was okay with.
You are mixing up a personal situation within only a few people are joking around and a much larger social issue. If a white woman gets upset at a dude for calling a black guy a slur on social media, even though the black guy was okay with it, does not absolve the dude from social mockery. Indeed, there would be hundreds of others in the black community ready to call the guy a dipshit. If the dude was with his friend and some white lady overheard and started yelling at them in the Rite Aid, then they can deal with that themselves.

My grandparents were in the war, three of them were in camps (two work, one death - he survived), my great uncle was a Jew and was one of the "lucky" ones who got released from a death camp only to be taken to a Russian Gulag, and survive that as well. Nobody made horrible camping trip / chimney / soap / etc jokes like him and my grandfather.
As were some of my grandparents (Not Jewish, but fought in the wars). It's great to say "Well I know people that survived and they made jokes all the time" but that does not work for everyone. For your grandparents being able to make soap jokes, my grandfather woke up every night with PTSD from all the shit he dealt with in Czechoslovakia.

3) flawed because, while there are still people alive, even so there's already plenty of people calling it overblown, fake, exaggerated, etc etc.
And there are plenty of people that say the opposite. Are we going to have to get into a fight of statistics now?

Look, I'm not saying I want the toothbrush mustache to come back into fashion or anything! Heck, I said nothing this time :p but we can't reduce Hitler - or the nazis - to a few main symbols. I'll even go further - the fact that we reduced the nazis as a whole to "bad folks who all just want to kill all Jews with some big crosses and ugly mustaches" is a big, big problem with how we've dealt with WWII.
It's not that "some nazis weren't so bad", it's that "most nazis didn't consider themselves bad". People don't consider themselves as bad as or similar to nazis! They would never operate a gas chamber! But, 99.9% of all nazis didn't and wouldn't, either. They just created an atmosphere where others saw that as a perfectly valid solution. Modern day propaganda about Muslims and black people is already as bad as anything about Jews the nazis ever put out - and what they say about gay people could just be carbon copied. Hitlers mustache is like Trumps orangeness. It's an easy physical attribute to make fun of, but it's also something that makes him instantly recognizable. And while I'm not a fan of fake spray paint tan, I don't think being orange should suddenly man you're clearly a fascist.
Symbols and understanding those symbols or the nuances of how the war went are not mutually exclusive things.

Yes, just because Trump was orange does not mean we have to mark all people with a shitty tan as a fascist.

Now when he actually gathers his "Orange Patriots" wearing large TRUMP letters on their uniforms and horrible fake spray tans, marching out of Florida and gathering every Mexican they can find into work camps from which they will likely either die or be killed, and ending with 75 million people dead through either extermination or conflict, then we can have a conversation about what those symbols can mean less then 100 years later.
 
One of the guys just arrested in connection with the death of the Capitol Police officer is from here. Owner of a popular restaurant. :facepalm:
 

figmentPez

Staff member
It comes as no surprise that the trials have been a fucking circus:

Lawyer blames 'Foxitis' for his US Capitol riot client's actions, as another defendant derails hearings with profane outbursts

"Antonio, his lawyer Joseph Hurley said, had lost his job at the beginning of the pandemic and for the next six months watched Fox News constantly. Antonio developed what his lawyer called 'Foxitis' and 'Foxmania,' and believed the lies about the 2020 election from Fox News and then-President Donald Trump."

Ah, yes, the party of personal accountability is shifting the blame, as usual.
 
Still in the "throw every defense at the wall and see what sticks" phase, I see.

I swear it's like the lawyers for all those idiots are on their own message board and just coming up with random ideas.

"Ok, how about this: 'My client never wanted to enter the Capitol, they were struggling against the tide of other protestors and simply got pushed into the building.'

What about, 'My client is an amateur plumber and noticed some of the pipes outside had gotten broken and were merely going in to offer their services to fix or inform someone inside of the damages?' No?

Hmmm, 'My client is an avid bird watcher and saw a rare Painted Bunting fly into the building and simply followed it in to observe it and nothing more.'

'My client was mesmerized by Aurora Borealis'?"
 
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