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I think it's well past time we had a place to discuss this show without spoiler boxes.

So, Malcom in the Middle opening, huh? I guess they're conveniently skipping over the Full House era, avoiding Elizabeth Olsen having to say "You're in big trouble, Mister!"

ThatNickGuy said:

Something just occurred to me. People seem to think Mephisto is going to appear in WandaVision. I'm not so sure that aligns with family friendly Disney.

But given that Wanda is set to be in Dr Strange 2, you know who MIGHT fit?

NIGHTMARE.
View attachment 37090
He's a classic Dr Strange villain. He's all about creating dreams or nightmares for people. And he was rumored at one point to be the main villain in Dr Strange 2.

But hey, that's just a theory...

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Personally, I think it's going to be like Ronin in Guardians of the Galaxy. Nightmare (or some other villain) is the one causing the problems in WandaVision, but Mephisto is a bigger bad pulling strings beyond the immediate threat.

Nightmare is even more likely as a culprit, after Hayward said "We take her out this whole nightmare ends".

--

I like this series of tweets from Nash Bozard





Honestly, I'm down for the Muppets showing up, and I really hope that reality gets that broken at some point.

Full house partially served as inspiration for episode 5.

Yeah. Episode 5 was the 80s era and had some Full House references such as shots from the episode theme song.
I still think it's going to be Mephisto. In fact I feel like Evan Peters is Mephisto but posing as Pietro as he tries to keep Wanda fixated on this world and possibly get close to her to better control her powers.
Even if not I'm guessing he will be someone important, but not X-Men universe Quicksilver important. Now that an episode has gone by without discussing that possibility I think it's safe to say the Evan Peters intro is just a clever use of casting.
He does, however, clearly know more than he's admitting.
Agnes still has that Harkness likelihood going for her, especially with her dressed as a witch for Halloween. But she's just at the mercy of Wanda's powers as anyone.
Speaking of Wanda's powers, while she could potentially control the minds of the residents, she's never had the powers to physically alter reality. Something has granted her these powers, and taken away her memory of how she got them.

Fun interview from the Age of Ultron press tour:

That commercial in episode 6 was dark S hell too. What was the message with that one?

Shawn said:

That commercial in episode 6 was dark S hell too. What was the message with that one?

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A shark trying to steal magic while the kid starves to death on an island?


It also could be reference to how the people on the outer edge of the control are likely starving to death since Wanda isn't making them eat, or do anything.

I'm surprised the kid wasn't on a raft.

As the commercials go, I think they're referencing infinity stones. Here are the commercials:
1. Stark-made toaster with a single blinking light in the center, not in color so can't tell what color it is, but could reference a humorous bit from the comics referring to Vision as a glorified toaster. - Mind Stone
2. Strucker watch - Again, black and white but the watch is actually available for purchase online and is gold with a green face - Time Stone
3. Hydra soak - "Escape to a world all your own", also a blue square - Space Stone
4. Lagos paper towels - shown cleaning up an out of control red liquid - Reality Stone
5. Yo-Magic - Devil's bargain, sacrifice a life for reward - Soul Stone

Piotyr said:

1. Stark-made toaster with a single blinking light in the center, not in color so can't tell what color it is

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The light is the only part that IS in color, and is the first color shown in the show. It's red.

That is not a red light:


There was actually no color at all in the first episode. The first color in the show was the red and yellow helicopter in episode 2.

EDIT: Weird, in the thumbnail and youtube video it's not red, but in the show it definitely is red. I'm sticking with mind stone representation though.

EDIT 2: Heh, if you watch the episode in Disney plus, the first time the light blinks it's yellow, then when they cut back to it at the end it's red.

Subject of Agnes, I feel that either she IS a witch and knows more than she's saying, OR she tricks Wanda into giving her her powers.

#GiveDarcySuperpowers

Piotyr said:

That is not a red light:


There was actually no color at all in the first episode. The first color in the show was the red and yellow helicopter in episode 2.

EDIT: Weird, in the thumbnail and youtube video it's not red, but in the show it definitely is red. I'm sticking with mind stone representation though.

EDIT 2: Heh, if you watch the episode in Disney plus, the first time the light blinks it's yellow, then when they cut back to it at the end it's red.
View attachment 37103View attachment 37104

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Youtube compression loses the color because it's so small.

In the actual episode, the light is not in color until the 'beeping' starts, then it's red.

I think each commercial is a reference to trauma in Wanda's past. The toaster beeps like a bomb, in age of Ultron you discover that the maximoffs were killed when their apartment building was hit by a Stark Industries shell. A second shell hit but did not detonate, much like the toaster counting down to nothing.



The second commercial references Wolfgang von Strucker, the HYDRA scientist that experimented on Wanda and Pietro and ultimately gave them their powers.


Hydrasoak is pretty obvious. When you want to get away without going anywhere, both referencing how Wanda is running from her problems by staying put in her bubble, and also how she joined HYDRA after the death of her parents.

Lagos towels, again, obvious. Lagos is the city she's in when she accidently blows up a building kicking off Civil War, a mess she didn't mean to make.

Is Magneto their dad in any of these realities?

blotsfan said:

Is Magneto their dad in any of these realities?

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In the X-men movies. So if he is that Quicksilver, yes.

I'm not sure why he would remember being gunned down then.

Darcy's likely "Oh, fuck!" censoring to "Oh, fudge!" as the sitcom reality of the hex moved over her was great.

MindDetective said:

I'm not sure why he would remember being gunned down then.

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Part of me is thinking the re-cast was done as a clever reference, and that it IS MCU-Pietro's body re-animated, but like implied with Vision Wanda can't actually resurrect people, she just re-structures matter into something different with the same properties, and whatever memories Wanda wants to implant into said being.

Although given Pietro's funky dialogue, WON'T be surprised if he is Mephisto or some other such suchery.

Yeah, I'm with Yoshi and Shawn here. As I'd suspected, I don't think this is Quicksilver from the X-Men movies. He felt too...manipulative, especially during their heart to heart where he gives his blessing for what she's doing.

Also notice how he spent 90% of his time with the kids? And basically helped unlock their powers?

If he's not Mephisto or Nightmare himself, I would not be surprised if he's involved in some way.

Less sure about Agnes now, though. I still think she's more self aware than others in the town, but I'm not sure to what degree.

Crap, now I'm thinking Agnes might be a feint like the Skrulls in Captain Marvel. Still think she knows more than she's saying, but still a LOT of ways here.

Yoshimickster said:

Crap, now I'm thinking Agnes might be a feint like the Skrulls in Captain Marvel. Still think she knows more than she's saying, but still a LOT of ways here.

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Come to think of it, who's to say the whole bit with Vision wasn't a performance just for him? Not that this genre isn't already filled with contrivances, but it was awfully convenient she stopped her car right there, at the edge of town, and pointing a proverbial arrow right at the exit and the SWORD camp.

ThatNickGuy said:

Not that this genre isn't already filled with contrivances, but it was awfully convenient she stopped her car right there, at the edge of town,

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I figured she was trying to get out but couldn't.

blotsfan said:

I figured she was trying to get out but couldn't.

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That's definitely a possibility, too. It's hard to say. Maybe Wanda's spell weakened on Agnes because she was trying to control so many people all at once? Weakened enough that she at least attempted an escape?

Okay, this a long-shot (pun intended), but all the players on the field have me wondering if Inferno could be the next Infinity War. The MCU could be bringing in the X-Men, there's been the (failed) New Mutants movie, Mephisto is heavily hinted at, with possible demons and Limbo being part of the picture. Inferno isn't a story arc I hear mentioned by fans very often, and it's got a huge score of problems, but.... C'mon, tell me you don't want to see the Goblin Queen ruling a twisted version of the MCU.

Piotyr said:

As the commercials go, I think they're referencing infinity stones. Here are the commercials:
1. Stark-made toaster with a single blinking light in the center, not in color so can't tell what color it is, but could reference a humorous bit from the comics referring to Vision as a glorified toaster. - Mind Stone
2. Strucker watch - Again, black and white but the watch is actually available for purchase online and is gold with a green face - Time Stone
3. Hydra soak - "Escape to a world all your own", also a blue square - Space Stone
4. Lagos paper towels - shown cleaning up an out of control red liquid - Reality Stone
5. Yo-Magic - Devil's bargain, sacrifice a life for reward - Soul Stone

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Hmm... if they are a reference to the Infinity Stones, maybe Thanos atomizing them didn't actually destroy them, just spread them around, and some of their power is coalescing around Wanda, giving her the boost to do all this stuff.

Has anyone considered that “mutants” could be random people from a very large group (let’s say... half the world population) that recently went through a cosmic level event and were altered on a dna level?

Shawn said:

Has anyone considered that “mutants” could be random people from a very large group (let’s say... half the world population) that recently went through a cosmic level event event and we’re altered on a dna level?

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That's clever.

Huh. You know, I just realized something.

SWORD's base of operations looks like it includes some shuttles. Shuttles that someone could...borrow for an experiment or mission.

Say...a FOUR-man mission.

I have no speculations on what is exactly going on but I am really enjoying the show and hope the rest of the mini-series upcoming are this good.

I have to admit that Bucky and the Falcon being on "TV" kinda makes me sad. I hoped it could be a MCU movie. Then again this will be 5 to 10 hours instead.

ThatNickGuy said:

Huh. You know, I just realized something.

SWORD's base of operations looks like it includes some shuttles. Shuttles that someone could...borrow for an experiment or mission.

Say...a FOUR-man mission.

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Episode 4 when Monica is being reintroduced to sword, they mention their space program and some problems with their astronauts. Particularly some missing astronauts.

Ravenpoe said:

Episode 4 when Monica is being reintroduced to sword, they mention their space program and some problems with their astronauts. Particularly some missing astronauts.

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Reeeeeeeeeally? I hadn't caught that. Interesting.

Far said:

So Wandavision

Spoiler

Didn't think they'd jump right into setting up phase 4 so quickly but looks like his return/revival/recast has set that off like a shot.

Also curious now if the missing Sword astronauts from episode 4 might be the lead up to a certain fantastic family.

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I'm just down with the great sitcom parodies. This last one was a PERFECT re-imagining of Malcom in the Middle.

I wonder what is next, sitcom-wise? We're into the 2000's. It would be amusing if they did a shout-out to something like Fresh Off the Boat (which is both an ABC/Disney property AND starring Randall Park).

The Office is supposed to be the inspiration for one episode, as is Modern Family (which I know little about).

MindDetective said:

The Office is supposed to be the inspiration for one episode, as is Modern Family (which I know little about).

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I saw a trailer for the next episode. They are heavily parodying Modern Family. It’s the “single camera family comedy, jump cut to person speaking to camera like it’s a mockumentary” style. That would be the same style that The Office essentially made famous.

So I've been reading up on theories regarding that very odd Yo Magic commercial.

People seem to agree there is a very Faustian Bargain feel to it. The boy on the island is starving and along comes a scary looking shark with the key to his survival. But in the end his greatest wish does not save him.
Someone has granted Wanda these additional powers, however, they have come at a great cost.
People have also noted that the Shark has a very similar color scheme of a recent addition to the "cast".

With Darcy Lewis getting caught in the hex, we've gotta get a Two Broke Girls reference.

One of the big rumors swirling is that the "friend" of Monica that will appear in the next episode, and was hinted at in previous episodes, is going to be "pre-powers" Reed Richards, and the person who has been in talks to play him last we heard was John Krasinski (Jim from The Office). Add on the fact that Randall Park (Agent Woo) had a small joke role playing Asian Jim in The Office, and considering Modern Family took a lot of inspiration in it's format from The Office, we could be hitting some extreme forms of meta here.

Not even going to go into the fact that it's very likely Darcy becomes a diner waitress now that she is inside the Hex. It's references all the way down.

Also, one thing I wanted to mention was the commercials. I feel the commercials are traumatic periods in Wanda's life that she is coping with.

#1 : The toaster represents a bomb. When Wanda was young, she, like most people, probably looked up to Tony Stark, since he was considered by many to be a philanthropist and innovator that would take the world into the future. Then her parents are killed by a bomb developed by Stark Industries, unraveling how she saw him and putting her and her brother down the path that made them who they are now. The toaster "ticking down" ominously, before simply giving them toast, was her "sanitizing" this trauma by making the bomb into a simple appliance, one in which no one dies, but ultimately coming to terms with them being gone. "Forget the past, this is your future."

#2 and #3 : The Strucker Watch and Hydrasoak are interesting, in that they kind of overlap. The Strucker Watch represents who recruited them and her idealization of him, as a powerful influential man of refinement who was going to give her everything she ever wanted, "Strucker, he'll always make time for you". Hydrasoak continues on that, but represents the twins being fed up and frustrated protesting with no progress, on the edge. Hydra let them "get away" from that and soaked them in the powers of the infinity stone, making her extremely powerful, "Unlock the goddess within." If you notice, these are very positive commercials, and much like sanitizing the bomb in the first commercial, it's her trying to cope with the fact she got her powers from very bad people and trying to tell herself she shouldn't be ashamed of that.

#4 : Lagos Paper Towels is pretty simple. When she blew up the building in Lagos, killing all those people. It's symbolic in that not only does she never make the mess (it's the kids, or the husband. Likely internalizing that it was Crossbones that did it by blowing himself up.) but she wipes up all the "blood", fixing the problem. Once again, she is trying to sanitize the whole thing, attempting to remove herself from blame and wiping the slate clean. "When you make a mess, you didn't mean to."

#5 : Yo Magic is a bit more difficult to parse, and I honestly think it has multiple meanings, but I think the main thing it represents is her time trapped on "The Raft". She was stuck in the middle of the ocean, with her powers taken away from her, and likely being studied by the government for ways to utilize her powers. The shark represents a manifestation of her desire for freedom (hunger) but her inability to do anything due to her magic being suppressed (unable to open the cup). The kid wasting away is what she thinks would happen to her if she ever lost her "magic" again, and the tag line "Yo Magic, it's for survivors." is once again her coping with that loss of power. She got out, and so she won't let "her magic" ever escape her again, because if it does, death will follow for herself and those she loves.

Now there are two events missing so far from this idea. The death of Pietro, and the death of Vision, but I think the reason no commercials for those events exist is due to just how tragic they are. The others, she is willing to remember in some way to work through the grief and frustration and lies by sanitizing these events into commercials, but the death of her brother and her lover deserve no air-time. There is no way she can "justify" or "overwrite" those memories, and thus there is never a commercial for them.

Wait for it.

Episode 7!
Just writing down some notes as I watch.

• I love how the "glitching" is being written in as part of the comedy in our sitcom homage of the week. You get those delightful "shenanigans" music cues whenever something goes wrong. When Wanda "Case of the Monday"-fies it it's like she's given up ignoring the anomalies and is just doing her best to incorporate them into her perfect little world.
• I paused on the 5-Day forecast on the TV. But I didn't see anything easter-eggy. Anyone notice anything?
• Turning the SWORD base into a circus was all kinds of perfect.
• In all previous episodes Agnes has shown that she seems to be just as under Wanda's spell as the rest of the town. There has always been that hint that there is more to her than it seems. So I don't know what to think of her reveal here as the "main" villain. Even her announcement "The name's Agatha Harkness!" seems so over-the-top for what the creators of the show must have known would have been very obvious to fans ahead of time. Because on one hand, if this is the reveal of the main villain, I feel kinda cheated. She's just really "twirl of the mustache" evil and Not-Pietro just being some random manifestation she came up with seems like a major cop-out for what was otherwise brilliant casting. But on the OTHER HAND... with two episodes left maybe this is all just a huge fake-out. Maybe there is far more to all of this and Agatha is just a pawn in a grander scheme.
• Also, I think this is the first episode with a mid credits scene, though it wasn't very spectacular or at all revealing.

Shawn said:

Episode 7!
Just writing down some notes as I watch.

• I love how the "glitching" is being written in as part of the comedy in our sitcom homage of the week. You get those delightful "shenanigans" music cues whenever something goes wrong. When Wanda "Case of the Monday"-fies it it's like she's given up ignoring the anomalies and is just doing her best to incorporate them into her perfect little world.
• I paused on the 5-Day forecast on the TV. But I didn't see anything easter-eggy. Anyone notice anything?
• Turning the SWORD base into a circus was all kinds of perfect.
• In all previous episodes Agnes has shown that she seems to be just as under Wanda's spell as the rest of the town. There has always been that hint that there is more to her than it seems. So I don't know what to think of her reveal here as the "main" villain. Even her announcement "The name's Agatha Harkness!" seems so over-the-top for what the creators of the show must have known would have been very obvious to fans ahead of time. Because on one hand, if this is the reveal of the main villain, I feel kinda cheated. She's just really "twirl of the mustache" evil and Not-Pietro just being some random manifestation she came up with seems like a major cop-out for what was otherwise brilliant casting. But on the OTHER HAND... with two episodes left maybe this is all just a huge fake-out. Maybe there is far more to all of this and Agatha is just a pawn in a grander scheme.
• Also, I think this is the first episode with a mid credits scene, though it wasn't very spectacular or at all revealing.

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I think the over the top reveal, as well as the Agatha All Along theme (which was great btw) point to Agatha also being a player for someone else in the show. So she might not be the main villain, but a pawn of the main villain as well.

Ravenpoe said:

I think the over the top reveal, as well as the Agatha All Along theme (which was great btw) point to Agatha also being a player for someone else in the show. So she might not be the main villain, but a pawn of the main villain as well.

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This is my hope. Because up until this point she really does seem just as under the spell of the Hex as everyone else. A good secret villain reveal is one where if you watch the series again you start to pick out all the little hints you missed.

Shawn said:

This is my hope. Because up until this point she really does seem just as under the spell of the Hex as everyone else. A good secret villain reveal is one where if you watch the series again you start to pick out all the little hints you missed.

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But these days, all this lines of shows get so over-analyzed by fans on the internet (I don't mean like this thread, but more the frame-by-frame comparisons etc) that practically by reveal is either an ass-pull, or already predicted. There's only so many Chekhov's Guns and continuity pointers and hints you can hide. Viewers - at least the younger more internet wise cynical nerdy group - have gotten very savvy. I prefer a twist I could see coming but wasn't sure of over a twist that's just seemingly random.

Shawn said:

This is my hope. Because up until this point she really does seem just as under the spell of the Hex as everyone else. A good secret villain reveal is one where if you watch the series again you start to pick out all the little hints you missed.

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You know, thinking about it now, it could still be Wanda. Agnes didn't come over until after Monica told Wanda not to become a villain, so Agnes, still under the spell, steps in to become the new villain and absolve Wanda.

Hey! No fair suddenly putting an after-credits scene when there hasn't been one before.

figmentPez said:

Hey! No fair suddenly putting an after-credits scene when there hasn't been one before.

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I don't see the point of it honestly. It doesn't give a good reveal or fun gag.

Anyone think it's a coincidence that we get an end credit scene and a superhero origin the same week WandaVision is paying tribute to a show that started in 2009 -- one year after Iron Man made superheroes common knowledge?

Shawn said:

I don't see the point of it honestly. It doesn't give a good reveal or fun gag.

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The reveal is that Pietro is on team Agatha.

Piotyr said:

The reveal is that Pietro is on team Agatha.

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I wouldn't go that far, all it revealed is that Pietro caught her looking at the basement. We have no idea if he is actually on her side or not. It really just revealed that he continues to exist.

On one hand, I like the reveal of Agatha, on the other hand, it DOES feel like this whole thing was staged to absolve Wanda of her own guilt. What is throwing me off are the Vision scenes. If they didn't have the scenes of Vision talking to the camera, I would have seen it as staged because only Wanda has the "Television" scenes, and since Agatha had a soap opera style reveal and a theme song, that fits. Yet Vision and Darcy are right now "In-yet-out" of the Television world, yet Vision still had random moments where he was speaking with the camera, which means the Hex itself could be forcing these plots.

Vision is definitely something neither Agatha nor Wanda can control, and I think it is Agatha that is going to great lengths to keep Vision away from Wanda right now.

Side note, Disney redacted the spoiler in the end credits, which I found amusing:

Piotyr said:

Disney redacted the spoiler in the end credits, which I found amusing:

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Oh look! They actually learned from Phantom Menace.

--Patrick

AND-I'm back to thinking Quicksilver is from the X-men movie universe again, MAN this show is a whirl wind!

I think this since AGATHA was the one controlling him, and given her reaction to Wanda's supposed resurrection powers, I think its something Wanda can do and she can't.

FINAL THOUGHT-Ralph is dead and she's trying to get Wanda to bring him back to life.

Ralph is almost guaranteed to be Mephisto, should he exist at all.

Of course, it could be that Mephisto is dead, as I don't see them going into the whole "He is the devil pulling all the strings from hell" for the MCU, and instead might have him be a more super natural super being that Agatha is trying to awaken from some death like sleep. I have a feeling if that is the route they go, it was not Wanda that she needed, but Billy and Tommy. Goes a long way to explain Quicksilver calling them demon spawn in the episode before this one. Now that she has the twins, she had no need to conceal herself from Wanda anymore.

I think Agatha is a sleight of hand for the audience. The REAL villain wouldn't have a cheeky, fun theme song all set up and ready to go. I completely agree with @Ravenpoe that Agatha is made to be the villain so that Wanda is not.

Dave said:

I think Agatha is a sleight of hand for the audience. The REAL villain wouldn't have a cheeky, fun theme song all set up and ready to go. I completely agree with @Ravenpoe that Agatha is made to be the villain so that Wanda is not.

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I thought this too, but honestly there are two things that kind of throw wrenches in that theory.

1) Billy was unable to read Agatha's mind, even before Wanda and Monica had their confrontation. This points to Agnes / Agatha having some sort of resistant to Wanda's powers, as Billy inherited many of his powers from her.

2) This episode broke a motif in that the "television" stuff only happened with people under Wanda's control, but this episode has Vision break into the interview moment and do the forth wall breaks even though he isn't under Wanda's control anymore. This, to me, means someone else has to be pushing for Vision to have these moments, either Agatha, or maybe even the Hex itself.

The thing is, if Agatha is the one behind the Hex, then all the television motifs could be specifically because she loves television. In that situation, her having a big reveal moment and a theme song fits within the character. Remember, she is the one that acted like an actress on a stage in the 70s episode and during the song was shown as the "director" of the interview parts of this episode. If this is all a television show in which she is the director / actress, that then fits that she would keep up that motif even when telling Wanda the truth.

I mean, it makes sense. How old is Wanda? Why would she craft a world that starts in 1950s television? She wasn't even born yet, and I don't think Sokovia has Nick At Nite. However, a possibly ancient witch from eons past with a flare for the dramatic? That makes a lot more sense.

So on Agatha being the main villain, remember she is a witch and witches get their powers from some other, be it devil, demon, or other cosmic entity. I think the 'real' big bad has yet to be revealed.

Gryfter said:

So on Agatha being the main villain, remember she is a witch and witches get their powers from some other, be it devil, demon, or other cosmic entity. I think the 'real' big bad has yet to be revealed.

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What if the whole thing is just Agatha trying to entertain Mephisto? Like, they been doing this just so he has something to watch each night because he is bored.

Agatha in the comics is also sometimes an anti-hero or friend to Wanda, so maybe she is just trying to keep Mephisto content to save the world, and everything is ruined by the end and Mephisto decides to get himself involved.

ScytheRexx said:

I mean, it makes sense. How old is Wanda? Why would she craft a world that starts in 1950s television? She wasn't even born yet, and I don't think Sokovia has Nick At Nite. However, a possibly ancient witch from eons past with a flare for the dramatic? That makes a lot more sense.

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Wanda is apparently 31.

Actually, a lot of older TV shows had a much extended life in places like the former soviet bloc because they were already translated into those languages before the wall fell so they could be sold on the cheap to stations in those areas. So stuff like I Love Lucy and others were ready to go when Wanda was a kid... and at the very least, it's something that would have been playing or she'd have had access to. I'm more surprised she's seen stuff like Malcom in the Middle or The Office, but I suppose she was also on lockdown in Avengers HQ for awhile with nothing to do. I could totally see her binging Nick at Nite as comfort food, if it's the kind of stuff she'd have done with Pietro. Hell, Vision probably did it with her and it's probably WHY she choose to base her world on this things.

I'm going to take a break from the speculation for a sec and mention that whoever did the set design for WandaVision should will ALL of the awards? They picked a design that would not only be able to be immediately recognizable to whichever tv show/era they're parodying, but also able to be redressed/redesigned almost from scratch every time there's a new episode? That's a ridiculous amount of work.

I'm just commenting so I can see all your theories and be notified. I adored the hell out of this episode, and wanted to add- did no one else love Monica getting her super powers from being so stubborn she pushed through the hex?

Krisken said:

I'm just commenting so I can see all your theories and be notified. I adored the hell out of this episode, and wanted to add- did no one else love Monica getting her super powers from being so stubborn she pushed through the hex?

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YEAH that was straight up my shit right there. If this season ends with Monica in a beam struggle with literally ANYONE I'll die a happy clam.

I don't know about anyone else, but I've rewatched Agatha's song more than half a dozen times already.

Also, looks like I was right that her location in the last episode was awfully convenient. I think she's been trying to separate Vision from Wanda because he'd protect her and she Agnes can't directly control him.

If Pietro isn't Mephisto or Nightmare, I'm guessing he's working for Agnes. I'm still not convinced he's Quicksilver from the X-Men universe. I think it was just brilliant stunt casting as a red herring. I also think the mailman is in on it, too. Notice the rabbit symbol on his hat this episode? Maybe he's part of her coven or something.

I'm a little disappointed Monica's contact was just...some unnamed woman. After all the build up and constantly mentioning them, I thought it'd be SOMEONE.

Also:

Agatha: And I killed Sparky, too!
John Wick: That's it. I'm going in.

ThatNickGuy said:

Also:

Agatha: And I killed Sparky, too!
John Wick: That's it. I'm going in.

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Oh, crap. John Wick with super powers?

MindDetective said:

Oh, crap. John Wick with super powers?

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Does he need them? He's already basically The Punisher.

Another thought I just had:

I wouldn't be surprised if next week's episode is Agnes-centered, like Episode 4 was Monica-centered. Like seeing her backstory, her motivations, etc.

Celt Z said:

Does he need them? He's already basically The Punisher.

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I know! That's what I'm saying!

Celt Z said:

Does he need them? He's already basically The Punisher.

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Not only does he not need them....



It's generally a bad thing when Punisher-type characters get powers.



(Though guns that can kill demons might come in useful.)

My new theory after watching the newest episode:

blotsfan said:

My new theory after watching the newest episode:

Spoiler

Agatha was actually behind it all.

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That's a bold theory

At least it's pretty obvious who Evan Peters is playing...

Okay, Nexus big hint, which leads to Loki, so WandaVision leads to Dr. Strange movie and Loki TV show.

Killing Sparky. Yep, just ended that conversation that she might be a good guy.

Now, excuse me I have a theme song to sing.

HCGLNS said:

Killing Sparky. Yep, just ended that conversation that she might be a good guy.

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Unless this is the case of an unreliable narrator.

Agatha Harkness created Covid-19.

Agatha's whole theme song and the "I killed Sparky too!" is waaay too over the top for the MCU. Plus with her being front & center the entire series and all of the fans immediately pointing her out as exactly the comic character she is later revealed to be, there is no way she's the actual big bad. She's being manipulated by other forces to play the bad guy right now. It remains to be seen if that "other force" is Wanda's subconcious or another being like Mephisto or Nightmare.

No, that's too big. MCU will have hints for the MCU movies, but not a major impact. They want people who watch only the movies to get full enjoyment. A full massive villain reveal is unlikely and doesn't follow their 8 episode tv pattern.

Now, I'm rusty about my Marvel History, but Agatha enlisted herself to help Wanda learn to control her *etconned* 'Hex magic' and the Richards trusted her to be Franklin's nanny. She's no Shining Knight, more of a Arcane Person who can peek behind the curtain?
*

Essentially.

Just thinking that the show is now in "the age of heroes", so when Monica went through she became a hero.

I am two episodes in and holy shit, if I didn't know for a fact from friends I trust that it gets better I would have 100% bailed here. I have ZERO affection for sitcoms from before I was born. I found the first two unbearably dull. Also, 5 minute credits every episode is hilarious.

I can't stop singing the song.

Frank said:

I am two episodes in and holy shit, if I didn't know for a fact from friends I trust that it gets better I would have 100% bailed here. I have ZERO affection for sitcoms from before I was born. I found the first two unbearably dull. Also, 5 minute credits every episode is hilarious.

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This was exactly my experience. It took me about three days and four or five tries to get through the first two episodes, and I think this is going to end up on my list of Marvel content that I won't be rewatching.

That said, it does get better as it goes along. Mostly when it steps outside of the sitcom homage/parody stuff and starts telling the actual story.

The sitcom is the story.

See, what I liked about those first two episodes is they fully embraced the sitcom tropes of those eras. They did it with later episodes, but the bigger story encroached on those. I honestly enjoyed those first two episodes so much that I would honestly be okay with more of it in that situational comedy style, even without the bigger mysteries. They were honestly a lot of fun. As I said when they originally came out, I enjoyed the situational comedy so much that when the insidious bigger mystery creeped in, it briefly threw me BECAUSE of how good the situational comedy was. Which a testament not just to the writers and production crew, but especially Olsen and Bettany's acting and chemistry.

That said, while I say I'd be okay with more straight situational comedy episodes, they've honestly paced the series very well. The first episode was played almost entirely straight except for the creepy dinner scene. The second episode gave us glimpses of more, like the Pleasantville-like coloring and rewind after seeing the "beekeeper." Then the third episode gave us the weird glitches like the neighbor sawing the brick and the rewind "glitch" with Vision that worked so well, I briefly thought it was your typical streaming glitch. Then the whole thing with Monica and everything just rolled downhill from there. Episode 4 was a perfect placement to give us an outsider look at things and since then, we've gotten a bit of both worlds while being peppered with answers to the mysteries along the way. That's, again, why I think the next episode will be purely Agatha-focused, much like Monica's episode. Pacing-wise, it makes sense. We get all her backstory and probably a lot more answers like Episode 4 gave us, and bring it all full circle to where we were left off this week in time for the big final episode.

HCGLNS said:

The sitcom is the story.

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I disagree, at least so far. The sitcom is a part of the story, but it's weighed down by a whole bunch of winking and nodding at sitcom tropes and sitcom acting and etc. For people who grew up watching and enjoying those shows, or who have enough invested to enjoy those elements I'm sure it's great, and I'm not saying the show is objectively bad for doing it. For me, though, it was boring and I almost didn't stick with it long enough to see it start turning into a bigger and more interesting narrative than "Wanda and Vision as seen through the lens of the sitcoms of different decades." Even with the pace picking up and the overall direction getting clearer I'm still spending a couple of minutes per episode rolling my eyes and waiting for the sitcom-referential interludes to stop so things can get interesting again.

They sprinkle all sorts of SUBTLE metaphors about her (their) past in there during the sitcommy shit, I just don't like old sitcoms. At all. If you were to tell me I had to watch I Love Lucy and The Andy Griffith show for 8 hours or chew glass for 30 seconds, I might ask how much glass.

Ok, so I'm much further in now. Definitely a pretty fun show that I still think diddled too long in the pre-colour era.

Also, fucking laughed at loud at the walking corpses at the edge of the Hex (groan). What a shit way to die, starving to death because Wanda ain't regulating your mind enough. At least, that's what I gathered the spooky starving kid commercial was on the surface.

One, I am enjoying rewatching it based upon the latest reveal and how much sense it makes.

Two, there is the question of why a tv show? It can't be just kitsch, I tend towards the first messsge from space in Contact theory.

For those still thinking that Agatha is some sort of trick, or just part of the sitcom, I noticed something rather huge today.

Not sure how many of you noticed this, but whenever we are in the "sitcom" world, the aspect ratio always matches the era of the show, but whenever we were outside the influence of the Hex, the aspect ratio has been the standard 21:9. Re-watching the episode, as Wanda creeps down into the basement and approaches the "Temple", the aspect ratio slowly changes from 16:9 into 21:9, representing that she is now in "the real world" or the MCU proper. When Agatha starts her song, it snaps back to the older aspect ratios for each era. I missed it the first time because the scene itself was so dark.

If this sticks to the rules of the show, this means Agatha isn't something made up by Wanda, but that really is her true self, as the aspect ratio means they were outside the influence of the Hex.

I do seriously hope there's SOME (hinted at at least) reason why she Magic'd up Fox Quicksilver.

Kudos to the makeup people that make Paul Bettany look like the Paul Bettany of old and not the Stephen Merchant he's turned into.

Frank said:

I do seriously hope there's SOME (hinted at at least) reason why she Magic'd up Fox Quicksilver.

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A friend and I have a running theory right now that Agatha is attempting to bring someone back from the dead, likely "Ralph" AKA Mephisto. It's likely Wanda went to her hoping to bring Vision back from the dead, but Agatha told her it was impossible, but then through some event we will learn about later, Wanda and Agatha created the Hex and succeeded in bringing Vision back from the dead. Wanda wouldn't tell Agatha how she actually did it though, leading to Agatha erasing their memories, expanding the Hex, and putting them into the sitcom world so she could study them as the nosy neighbor. The twins were the first test (creating life without conception) and killing Sparky was the second test (resurrecting the dog to make her kids happy) from which Wanda didn't take the bait. This likely frustrated Agatha.

So why Pietro? Because she needed to get rid of Vision so that Wanda would be forced to try resurrecting him again. She can't control Vision, however, as his own powers allow him more autonomy then she planned for, so she had to find a way to make him vulnerable. Pietro was pushed in because he was the only other person Wanda really cared about, and his involvement in the next episode was to let Wanda put her guard down. Since Agatha couldn't bring the original Pietro back from the dead, she looked through the multiverse for another version of him that she could use as a pawn instead. This almost worked, as Pietro allowed Vision to wander away from Wanda, and then she tricked Vision into leaving the Hex. She didn't expect Wanda to expand the Hex though, because she didn't know their son would be able to feel Vision's distress and react to it. This is why she took the twins now actually,, because when Billy told her he liked how silent she was, Agatha realized Billy had inherited some of Wanda's powers, and thus she no longer feels she needs Wanda to carry out her plans. She is going to try and use Billy instead.

So you might be asking, if she can look into and pull people from multiple universes, why not just pull Mephisto from another universe? Because Mephisto is a "Nexus Being" and thus exists simultaneously in all alternate universes. If he is dead in one universe, he is dead in all of them. Fun fact, but Wanda herself also becomes a Nexus Being in the comics.

Addition - On further consideration I don't think Wanda ever went to Agatha. I think Wanda did create the original Hex and brought Vision back from the dead using it, but then Agatha sensed it and had to find out how, so she infiltrated the original Hex, turning it into the sitcom world we all know now. You can see it when the song starts, as her entering the frame makes the aspect ratio change and then the color transform to black and white, showing her influencing the Hex.

ScytheRexx said:

A friend and I have a running theory right now that Agatha is attempting to bring someone back from the dead, likely "Ralph" AKA Mephisto. It's likely Wanda went to her hoping to bring Vision back from the dead, but Agatha told her it was impossible, but then through some event we will learn about later, Wanda and Agatha created the Hex and succeeded in bringing Vision back from the dead. Wanda wouldn't tell Agatha how she actually did it though, leading to Agatha erasing their memories, expanding the Hex, and putting them into the sitcom world so she could study them as the nosy neighbor. The twins were the first test (creating life without conception) and killing Sparky was the second test (resurrecting the dog to make her kids happy) from which Wanda didn't take the bait. This likely frustrated Agatha.

So why Pietro? Because she needed to get rid of Vision so that Wanda would be forced to try resurrecting him again. She can't control Vision, however, as his own powers allow him more autonomy then she planned for, so she had to find a way to make him vulnerable. Pietro was pushed in because he was the only other person Wanda really cared about, and his involvement in the next episode was to let Wanda put her guard down. Since Agatha couldn't bring the original Pietro back from the dead, she looked through the multiverse for another version of him that she could use as a pawn instead. This almost worked, as Pietro allowed Vision to wander away from Wanda, and then she tricked Vision into leaving the Hex. She didn't expect Wanda to expand the Hex though, because she didn't know their son would be able to feel Vision's distress and react to it. This is why she took the twins now actually,, because when Billy told her he liked how silent she was, Agatha realized Billy had inherited some of Wanda's powers, and thus she no longer feels she needs Wanda to carry out her plans. She is going to try and use Billy instead.

So you might be asking, if she can look into and pull people from multiple universes, why not just pull Mephisto from another universe? Because Mephisto is a "Nexus Being" and thus exists simultaneously in all alternate universes. If he is dead in one universe, he is dead in all of them. Fun fact, but Wanda herself also becomes a Nexus Being in the comics.

Addition - On further consideration I don't think Wanda ever went to Agatha. I think Wanda did create the original Hex and brought Vision back from the dead using it, but then Agatha sensed it and had to find out how, so she infiltrated the original Hex, turning it into the sitcom world we all know now. You can see it when the song starts, as her entering the frame makes the aspect ratio change and then the color transform to black and white, showing her influencing the Hex.

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I am skeptical that they could convey all that to a general audience in 2 more episodes.

Vision has the Mind Stone in his head, so I want to know how. I guessing alternate dimension Vision, alternate dimension Pietro and kids, and that Agatha hopes Wanda can return some one else.

Also, the numbers on the license plate in the opening are some ones birthdate.

Awwww.

But why is it that Vision can't exist outside the Hex? Every other object so far that has come out of the Hex seems capable of keeping it's new form.

Perhaps Vision is a component of the spell and as such is integral to it. Maybe the big victory is him leaving the hex and rejoining the MCU?

I doubt it. I have a feeling Visions time is over. I hope I’m wrong though, he was under used.
Wand is going to have to make a choice. It could be say goodbye to Vision again, or maybe even to lose her kids as well. Obviously the hex will have to go away at the end, and Wanda will lose something. I don’t think she’ll make it out without a trade off.

Shakey said:

I doubt it. I have a feeling Visions time is over. I hope I’m wrong though, he was under used.
Wand is going to have to make a choice. It could be say goodbye to Vision again, or maybe even to lose her kids as well. Obviously the hex will have to go away at the end, and Wanda will lose something. I don’t think she’ll make it out without a trade off.

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Something that can be reviewed quickly for the audience in an MCU movie.

Dr Strange "In an attempt to save the life of her husband Wanda Maximoff fractured the oogidy boogidy. And now it's spreading ..."

Part of me is wondering if this ends with the hex covering everything. Changes aren't blatant, but lead to other shenanigans.

Mostly I just want to keep Vision though. He's been so good in this.

Darcy needs superpowers! She would make a great Volcana!

HCGLNS said:

Darcy needs superpowers! She would make a great Volcana!

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#GiveDarcySuperpowers

figmentPez said:

#GiveDarcySuperpowers

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Enough power to be a buddy for the new Thor, like Hulk was.

When it comes to the ending I am 50% sure that Wanda is going to "sacrifice" herself to save Vision and the twins. I have a whole theory about it that ties into the Loki series and the next Doctor Strange movie, but just in case I'm a little too on the nose I won't talk about it here.

Disney loves killing moms, so you may be onto something.

Fire away, no theory too small, no theory too big!

My only staunch theory is that Disney will not risk the enjoyment of the movie goers over the joy of the TV streams.

Celt Z said:

Disney loves killing moms, so you may be onto something.

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Okay I will spoiler it just in case though.

You know, in the comics Agatha spends A LOT of time dead. Maybe she's using Wanda to bring herself back.

That would actually would be an interesting take on it, and I can see it happening if the little temple under her house was always physically there. Like, maybe her remains were in the temple and the very act of creating the Hex brought her back to life, and now she too is trying to figure out how to leave it.

I had to look up Agatha Harkness because I only know her as Franklin Richards' nanny. Oh, I see Scarlet Witch has hands on murdered her once.

They have a complicated history.

Is she a FF MCU bridge? Could be.

I still think Agatha is working or being forced to work for some bigger bad. This show is meant to set up Multiverse of Madness and I believe Nightmare has been mentioned as the villain of that movie, so I don't think it would be far off to have the plot in the show resolved only to have the bigger bad teased at the end in a similar vein to how Thanos was shown being behind things at the end of the first Avengers movie.

I'm kinda hoping Dr. Strange shows up at the end to dispel the Hex and break Wanda out of her fugue state. He's supposed to be safeguarding against magical threats, even showing up quickly when Thor & Loki came to Earth in Ragnarok in order to get them on their way faster, so where is he now?

Solving crimes in London.

HCGLNS said:

Solving crimes in London.

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He gave that up years ago. It was becoming a bad hobbit...er, habit.

figmentPez said:

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The animation style actually looks more like that from the intro to Bewitched, which I suppose is appropriate.
I should really start watching this. Every time I open this thread is such a spoiler risk.

--Patrick

PatrThom said:

The animation style actually looks more like that from the intro to Bewitched, which I suppose is appropriate.

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Why not both?

You know, when I saw the trailer for this show, I thought the actress that plays Agnes looks a lot like Idina Menzel. And now that they've actually got her singing, I'm sad they didn't actually get Idina Menzel.

The strongest Mephisto is the fly. Though I doubt they will use that name.

Me Fist oh! Not Disney approved.

Okay so two episodes left? And two crisis to overcome.

This week will explore the SWORD problem while expanding on Agatha, final episode is all heroes vs Sparky killer.

blotsfan said:

View attachment 37204

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I don't think Fat Thor is a crime against the MCU, but I have a friend who does, so I made this for her.

Fat Thor was brilliant and awesome.

Fat Thor is relatable, and so I love him.

I also still love Swole Thor though, in that questioning-my-heterosexuality way.

Cool analysis of all the different musical styles in the opening songs for each era, and the common theme throughout:

Here we go. Episode 8.
* Agatha is not really good at keeping secrets. "Talk!" - "No!" - "Talk!"- "Kay..."
* A very disturbing take on "witch trials"
* Kathryn Hahn is fantastically hammy and vile. I love it.
* And just like that Wanda's obsession with sitcoms suddenly has become so damn depressing.
* Wanda and Pietro's ability to absorb power from the mind stone without perishing does make more sense knowing that they already had some level of powers beforehand.
* Love the meta analysis of why sitcoms are funny thrown in to this episode.
* Wanda and Vision growing closer over sitcoms makes it equally cute AND depressing.
* I'm guessing that West View was nice before the Snap but the 5 years of losing so many probably messed it up like that neighborhood in Endgame when Antman comes back.
* "Scarlet Witch!"
* Hayward is a very very naughty boy. He lied about Wanda taking Vision and has now created a Pseudo-Vision.

Unless they are going to throw something crazy into the final episode I think we can rule out multiverse theories for now. Also, Wanda's powers, despite being very powerful, don't seem to be the result of any deals or cooperation with other powerful beings. Agatha isn't even behind Westview. She's just gone along with the madness to know more about Wanda.

I'm a little slow on this part, but I just realized this as I was watching: the deed says they live on Sherwood Drive(?). Sherwood Schwartz was the creator of The Brady Bunch and Gilligan's Island. Nice touch, show.

Even though I knew it was coming, the bombing still made me jump.

And I really wanted an update on Monica and Darcy this week!

Shawn said:

* Wanda and Pietro's ability to absorb power from the mind stone without perishing does make more sense knowing that they already had some level of powers beforehand.

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Are we even sure at this point that the stone did anything more then react to her being "The Scarlet Witch" ? Apparently, now even in the comics that's some sort of magic title.

And i found it interesting that they (as in Hydra) don't mention trying it on the brother after. Seeing how she can just manifest a whole new Vision, there's no reason to assume she didn't just give Pietro his speed herself.

Damn what an episode. It was nice to learn why Wanda loved old television, being that her father sold old television tapes and DVDs, was a smart move tying in why she made everything into sitcoms. The bombing, I knew it was coming but I was not ready for it.

I really like how they threw in Wanda's mutant origins and powers. Yes, not with the "mutant" part, but showing that she had some sort of abilities over probability (or as Agatha called it, Probability Magic) that allowed her to literally "will" the bomb into a dud. This also ties in nicely with the toaster commercial, as the bomb represented in it was not the one that killed her parents, but instead the one that would have killed them but didn't.

The next part I am going to spoil just in case.

@Li3n said:

And i found it interesting that they (as in Hydra) don't mention trying it on the brother after. Seeing how she can just manifest a whole new Vision, there's no reason to assume she didn't just give Pietro his speed herself.

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This is exactly what I was thinking. I think what happened is they retconned it so Hydra never actually gave them their powers, as the Mind Stone kept killing all the other volunteers. Wanda had some sort of latent magic, being born as the Scarlet Witch, that gives her powers over probability, reality, and creation. When she came into contact with the Mind Stone, the being that showed itself inside the stone unlocked her powers, using the Mind Stone more as a conduit, and Hydra just worked off whatever fluke happened with her and the stone.

Then, while Wanda was attempting to get the hang of her new abilities, she subconsciously gave Pietro his speed speed, fearing that she would be alone as Hydra's guinea pig. This could explain how "Fake Pietro" could also go at super speed, because there is nothing specifically saying Agatha gave him that power, it could have been Wanda's subconscious simply "wishing" for the fake Pietro to be the real one, and thus his powers manifested all the same until Wanda realized he was fake, thus stripping him of his power.

Feel like I am spamming a bit in here but I love talking about this show.

We see near the end of the episode that Vision bought Wanda the property in Westview before he died. What's funny is, since a deed is a legal document, Vision had to put down a full name, so he put his name as "The Vision", with "The" filling in for his lack of a first name. This means as far as legal documents go, his name is "The Vision". This means that should the two of them been married, Wanda's legal name would be...

Wanda Vision.

So I'm a little bummed that apparently Fox Pietro was for no real reason. That could of course change, but as of now.

Frank said:

So I'm a little bummed that apparently Fox Pietro was for no real reason. That could of course change, but as of now.

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Wanda can make things real, so I guess we'll see

Frank said:

So I'm a little bummed that apparently Fox Pietro was for no real reason. That could of course change, but as of now.

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It was a beautiful job of misdirection for the audience using our preconceived notions of what it means for Evan Peters to play Pietro.

Yeah, perfect red herring for sure. I should have said "no real reason other than to be a red herring."

I legit yelled "WOO" when Agatha said Scarlet Witch.

The only thing people are mad about with the last episode is they think Paul Bettany trolled them all.

Paul said in an interview that he got to work with an actor he wanted to work with all his life while filming WandaVision, leading to dozens of theories from Patrick Stewart to Dick Van Dyke. Now with the reveal of White Vision they are pretty sure he was talking about working with himself.

White Vision is the Vision of my childhood. Like brown Wolverine. I kind of hope super power reconstructed Vision does end up merging with Vision corpse.

Brown Wolverine is best Wolverine btws.

Idk I thought that episode was weak. It was just a bunch of flashbacks to stuff that was pretty strongly implied with no real addition. Like, I already knew she was sad about her family being killed, and it was obvious the sitcoms were childhood memories without it being shown. Not to mention they completely dropped the sitcom format which made it stand out in the first place. I feel like they could've done a similar exposition episode but in the style of a fake clip show or behind the scenes "documentary" or something. It just was lazy to me.

Something I realized: the finale is going to have some the third act of most MCU movies have, and a common criticism: fighting an evil version of themselves. Wanda vs Agnes and Vision vs White Vision. It's a minor nitpick, but for all the uniqueness of the show, it's a little disappointing that's what it'll boil down to.

blotsfan said:

Idk I thought that episode was weak. It was just a bunch of flashbacks to stuff that was pretty strongly implied with no real addition. Like, I already knew she was sad about her family being killed, and it was obvious the sitcoms were childhood memories without it being shown. Not to mention they completely dropped the sitcom format which made it stand out in the first place. I feel like they could've done a similar exposition episode but in the style of a fake clip show or behind the scenes "documentary" or something. It just was lazy to me.

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Remember, while a lot of this is no doubt extremely obvious for fans and is known all over reddit and such, they do want to appeal to people who have never read a comic, too.
I'm debating watching it, but my wife really doesn't know anything outside of the movies and the first few seasons of Agents of Shield. I'm pretty sure if I ask her who Wanda from the Avengers is, she'll say it's Scarlett Johanson's character. I might get annoyed with too obvious a recap, and while I haven't seen it I think I'll agree with you they couldn't handled it in a more unique way, but recaps really do matter.

Bubble181 said:

Remember, while a lot of this is no doubt extremely obvious for fans and is known all over reddit and such, they do want to appeal to people who have never read a comic, too.

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I'm much closer to the latter category than the former. They've referenced her dead parents multiple times.

I agree with @blotsfan. I don't know a whole lot about Marvel outside the movies (when they did the big villain reveal, I had to Google to find out who Agatha Harkness is). The last episode just didn't do anything for me. I think the first flashback revealing that the TV shows reminded her of her childhood and family was enough. The rest of the flashbacks just came across as an info dump (with a hint of fanservice), and since there wasn't a solid story to carry it I don't even remember much of what was dumped on us. Sitcoms remind Wanda of happier times, there was stuff, and then we find out Wanda didn't steal Vision's body.

If they were trying to do the annoying 'clip show' that TV shows used to do, then I guess they succeeded?

It was supposed to be a clip show that tied up all the big questions about Wanda and WandaVision before the finale. I think if they threw in more shots of Agatha or Wanda peering into old scenes from the MCU movies, it would have tied the intention together a lot better then it did though. It's framing was rooted so much in the MCU reality that you forget we are still going off television tropes, this episode being the "Let's look back on this characters life." trope that was often the plot of a lot of clip shows.

blotsfan said:

Idk I thought that episode was weak. It was just a bunch of flashbacks to stuff that was pretty strongly implied with no real addition. Like, I already knew she was sad about her family being killed, and it was obvious the sitcoms were childhood memories without it being shown. Not to mention they completely dropped the sitcom format which made it stand out in the first place. I feel like they could've done a similar exposition episode but in the style of a fake clip show or behind the scenes "documentary" or something. It just was lazy to me.

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I'm going to respectfully disagree, because of one scene: the beginning of Wanda and Vision's relationship in the compound. We had never seen what actually brought the two together in the first place. It just jumped to them being madly in love at the start of Infinity War. Even the scenes in CA: CW seemed like Vision suddenly cared for Wanda a great deal, with no explanation as to why. Sure, there were some subtle hints about a blooming romance... but it still felt like it came out of the blue. Seeing Wanda grieving for Pietro and having Vision's shoulder to cry on gave us a beautiful (IMO) scene showing how grief and loss led her to find love in a place she did not expect. That scene alone made the episode worth it. That, and seeing the deed he had given her for the home.

I do understand your point of view, as the childhood and HYDRA parts felt unnecessary. But the rest was good!

EDIT: And Vision talking about never having anyone in his life! That showed much more depth to his character that we didn’t have before.

I think there's two ways to look at the episode. On one hand, if you're more interested in plot development or actions sequences, this episode will be kind of a letdown. On the other hand, there is a lot of character building and emotional development going on in the episode.

A lot of what we know about Wanda up until WandaVision has been through what we know about her from the comics. She hasn't been considered one of the main Avengers, so she hasn't gotten the spotlight like Tony or Cap. We've known enough about her story to keep the main plot moving along, but not much else. A lot of the past episode isn't giving things we didn't already know, but how the felt and impacted Wanda. Her pain has been weaponized throughout her appearances in the MCU, but it's never been dealt with. Not to mention, her relationship with Vision and WHY they connected was never really explored. We just assumed it was meant to be, because, comics. Her creation of the Westview Hex, as it turns out, is a direct effect of the traumas she's been through, but therapy, in a way. An unhealthy way, as we've found out, but it seems that's because she's never been given a heathly outlet, except for her realtionship with Vision.

I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume this emotional infodump will have a lot to do in the finale. It wasn't the most exciting episode, but I think it may have more importance than we know yet. (Maybe.)

That's where I am with it - both her and Vision are always in team movies, and those mostly focus on the core Avengers. It's nice to see more of them as actual characters and not sidekicks.

You know what nobody is talking about? At the end of LAST week's show, we got to see "Pietro" catch Monica quite ominously. And nothing this week. I thought they'd at least TOUCH on it!

Honestly, the only scene I felt was not needed was the Agatha origin scene. For a episode focusing on Wanda almost entirely, it felt out of place to just start the whole thing with Agatha. We know Agatha is a witch. We know she likely isn't a good one, or at least being influenced by someone evil. We didn't need to see her suck the life out of her mom to get that point. The dialogue she had with Wanda did that.

A good point from Twitter:


Wanda has lost just about everyone she's ever had a strong connection with.

figmentPez said:

A good point from Twitter:


Wanda has lost just about everyone she's ever had a strong connection with.

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Hawkeye is still around, but he has his own family to worry about.

ScytheRexx said:

Honestly, the only scene I felt was not needed was the Agatha origin scene. For a episode focusing on Wanda almost entirely, it felt out of place to just start the whole thing with Agatha. We know Agatha is a witch. We know she likely isn't a good one, or at least being influenced by someone evil. We didn't need to see her suck the life out of her mom to get that point. The dialogue she had with Wanda did that.

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I'm wondering if there's some sort of significance to Agatha's mothers brooch. It seemed like they were making a point of showing her taking it after killing her mother. If that does end up being important in the final episode it could explain this scene - if they didn't want to introduce it on the same episode that it ends up being important in, but couldn't show it before they'd established Agatha as being a witch then this was really the only place that scene could go.

mikerc said:

I'm wondering if there's some sort of significance to Agatha's mothers brooch. It seemed like they were making a point of showing her taking it after killing her mother. If that does end up being important in the final episode it could explain this scene - if they didn't want to introduce it on the same episode that it ends up being important in, but couldn't show it before they'd established Agatha as being a witch then this was really the only place that scene could go.

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I think the scene is pretty simply just to establish that Agatha is an incredibly powerful and dangerous witch, and yet she's still small potatoes compared to Wanda, who is doing magic she could only ever dream of without even thinking about it.

blotsfan said:

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that took me a second.

I liked the flashback episode.
I still think Wanda is going to have to lose something big before the end. Either she will have to give up her kids to bring down the hex and she’ll be able to merge the two visions and at least keep him, or she’ll have to see Vision die again but find a way to keep her kids.

Shakey said:

I liked the flashback episode.
I still think Wanda is going to have to lose something big before the end. Either she will have to give up her kids to bring down the hex and she’ll be able to merge the two visions and at least keep him, or she’ll have to see Vision die again but find a way to keep her kids.

Click to expand...

I still think it's going to come down to her sacrificing herself so Vision and the kids can both live, fully knowing she will be forever alone.

ScytheRexx said:

I still think it's going to come down to her sacrificing herself so Vision and the kids can both live, fully knowing she will be forever alone.

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But then how can she be in Dr Strange 2?

blotsfan said:

But then how can she be in Dr Strange 2?

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Dr. Strange saves her from her pocket dimension?

blotsfan said:

But then how can she be in Dr Strange 2?

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A sacrifice does not need to end in death. All we know about Dr Strange 2 is that it involves the multiverse, and Wanda exiling herself to another dimension means Dr Strange can find / stumble into her while doing his own multiverse adventures. It ties her into the story and allows her to have a bit of a bitter sweet ending because she finally has her family but will be unable to be with them.

blotsfan said:

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Uh, I don't get it?

ThatNickGuy said:

Uh, I don't get it?

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It's loss.

Easier to see like this:

I had blissfully forgotten that meme.

Watched Episode 8 again and I'm really feeling that Agatha Harkness is a good guy, working with Stephen Strange to help Wanda through these issues - or maybe that's my hope. Her only two 'bad guy indicators' are the fourth-wall break of "And I killed Sparky" and, well, obviously the strangling of the 'kids' at the end of Episode 8. The way she was phrasing things felt very trauma-discovery, very therapeutic and not necessarily antagonistic. More trying to get to the root of issues and to assist Wanda in finding solutions. I'd be VERY pleased if what comes out of episode 9 isn't a big giant battle between Wanda and Agatha but a team up of all of our wizardly/witchly friends against a common foe in White Vision, Nightmare, Mephisto, Mordo, whoever is the 'big bad'.

Adam said:

Watched Episode 8 again and I'm really feeling that Agatha Harkness is a good guy, working with Stephen Strange to help Wanda through these issues - or maybe that's my hope. Her only two 'bad guy indicators' are the fourth-wall break of "And I killed Sparky" and, well, obviously the strangling of the 'kids' at the end of Episode 8. The way she was phrasing things felt very trauma-discovery, very therapeutic and not necessarily antagonistic. More trying to get to the root of issues and to assist Wanda in finding solutions. I'd be VERY pleased if what comes out of episode 9 isn't a big giant battle between Wanda and Agatha but a team up of all of our wizardly/witchly friends against a common foe in White Vision, Nightmare, Mephisto, Mordo, whoever is the 'big bad'.

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Yeah, like I think I've said before here, once Marvel decided to boost/change/add that Wanda also had Chaos magic, Agatha taught here to control it. And, if not *currently* in the MCU, she was trusted to be Franklin Richard's nanny.
It's been awhile and I don't trust WIKI too much, but she's the 'brakes and teacher' to people too young or unexpectedly ramping up to Cosmic Power levels.

Adam said:

Watched Episode 8 again and I'm really feeling that Agatha Harkness is a good guy, working with Stephen Strange to help Wanda through these issues - or maybe that's my hope. Her only two 'bad guy indicators' are the fourth-wall break of "And I killed Sparky" and, well, obviously the strangling of the 'kids' at the end of Episode 8. The way she was phrasing things felt very trauma-discovery, very therapeutic and not necessarily antagonistic. More trying to get to the root of issues and to assist Wanda in finding solutions. I'd be VERY pleased if what comes out of episode 9 isn't a big giant battle between Wanda and Agatha but a team up of all of our wizardly/witchly friends against a common foe in White Vision, Nightmare, Mephisto, Mordo, whoever is the 'big bad'.

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IF she is a good guy then I don't think they will be able to adequately explain the shit she's done. She's been pretty aggressive with her tactics here and taking WAY too much joy in it.

figmentPez said:

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"So I was like, driving past this town called Westview, right, and I saw all these two- or three-story detached houses, but you know me, I'm more of a bungalow guy, 'cause my grandma used to live in a bungalow so every time I visited her the whole house was filled with the smell of her amazing food, so bungalows are associated with good memories for me, you know? So outside the town there were all these cars and structures and FBI agents, but that made me real uncomfortable because I haven't had many good interactions with law enforcement, so I thought maybe I should stay away, but there was also this weird energy shield that kinda reminded me of that giant dome from the Simpsons movie, hey did I ever tell you about that time I saw the Simpsons movie five times in one day? I snuck into a movie theater and hid there all day. But anyway, one of the agents comes over, and it's Agent Woo from that time Scott was under house arrest, and he says, "Yo, you're not supposed to be here, get out of here immediately." And I was like, "Hey man I don't want to be here anyway, I'm gone." But then the whole shield thing started expanding, you know, kinda like when you blow up a balloon, and suddenly it swallows me and I find myself inside the town, and then everything's black and white..."

I'm really hoping to see some elements from other sitcoms as Wanda's world continues to unravel. And I mean the kinds of sitcoms that she probably wouldn't have liked because so many of the characters were grouchy and antisocial. She tries to go back to the '70s setting and finds herself in a cramped, dumpy-looking house. And then she sees Vision sitting in an armchair and smoking a cigar. Wanda starts to break down and Vision just frowns and says "aww jeez, Wanda. Will you stifle yourself?" Or she says something that surprises Vision and he clutches his chest, waves his arm, and cries out "this is the big one, Elizabeth! I'm coming to join you, honey!"

I feel like with one episode left and movies to set up and plots to wrap up that the sitcom motif is done.

That's my cynical Marvel take.

Twitter is very angry about Disney+ issues right now.

Pause as soon as wanda logo pops up try fast forward 10 or just hold ff down a little bit that got me past the bottleneck

Tiger Tsang said:

Pause as soon as wanda logo pops up try fast forward 10 or just hold ff down a little bit that got me past the bottleneck

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of course then my headphones unplugged so i paused as it wss working fine and i guess i lost my spot in line

And this is why people hoist the jolly roger for weekly shows that people with more money than god didn't have back up servers ready for something like this

Well... it ended. It was quite a finale and the budget was clearly spent mostly on that episode.
I have one realistic complaint. And that's that Wanda walked away from this with no repercussions. Sadly that makes her pretty awful of a person.

My only other complaint isn't really that realistic.
As a piece of the MCU I was certainly hoping for more surprises. But I can't blame the series for my unreasonable expectations, especially since the series never promised any of that.

Overall it was a good series. Wanda is officially the Scarlet Witch. White Vision has his memories (though I don't understand why he's not trying to track down Wanda to be with her now). Monica gets to go meet with Nick Fury on whatever space station they were working on. The Darkhold is officially a thing in the MCU now? Or is Agents of Shield and Runaways considered MCU and therefore this was a copy?

Also, are Agents of Shield and Runaways connected with the MCU officially or not since they both deal with the Darkhold? Or is this a different Darkhold? I think the cover looks different between this and the other two series.

Finally got thru the first bottleneck again. No more touching the firestick!!!

Tiger Tsang said:

Finally got thru the first bottleneck again. No more touching the firestick!!!

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I downloaded it to my phone and cast it to the TV because of the issues you were reporting.

Shawn said:

Well... it ended. It was quite a finale and the budget was clearly spent mostly on that episode.
I have one realistic complaint. And that's that Wanda walked away from this with no repercussions. Sadly that makes her pretty awful of a person.

My only other complaint isn't really that realistic.
As a piece of the MCU I was certainly hoping for more surprises. But I can't blame the series for my unreasonable expectations, especially since the series never promised any of that.

Click to expand...

I liked the ending. They made it clear that Wanda didn't know what she did or even how she did it. She also had no way to make amends, I think. Perhaps most importantly, nobody had the power to stop her from leaving and so we are left having to trust that she is moving on from her grief and striving to do better. That's a message they could have spelled out more clearly, maybe, but it is one we should hear more often too.

Interesting to note that now that it has caught up to the present MCU, it has both a mid credit and end credit scene.

"These people whom you've tortured beyond reason and comprehension and will undoubtedly suffer lifelong debilitating trauma will never understand that you sacrificed your children you've known for...days? Weeks? YOU'RE THE REAL VICTIM HERE."

Frank said:

"These people whom you've tortured beyond reason and comprehension and will undoubtedly suffer lifelong debilitating trauma will never understand that you sacrificed your children you've known for...days? Weeks? YOU'RE THE REAL VICTIM HERE."

Click to expand...

Yeah. I was really bothered by that line. Maybe Wanda didn't know exactly how she did it, but she knew she WAS doing it. "Best of intentions" does not clear someone of the stuff she did. Honestly I not only feel frustrated with Wanda but also with Monica for not even TRYING to ask her to do the right thing and give herself up.

And that Darkhold scene at the end credits just kinda supports my point.

What I like about the finale is that so many people were wrong with their theories. After weeks of speculation, analyzing every Easter egg, and predicting each reveal, Disney/Marvel chose a different direction. No famous TV cameo. No Reed Richards. No big bad guy secretly pulling the strings. Seriously, I like that it really WAS Agatha All Along. The MCU has a serious shortage of women villains. If anything, I was sad Monica didn't get to do more, but this isn't her time. Yet.

And although this isn't an important point, can I just say how thrilled I was for whomever costumed/designed Wanda's epic battle? I want to find that person and give them the biggest hug of my life. After an entire lifetime of women is comics/movies/tv/video games having to battle in the most male-gaze-y, contrived, impractical, complete bullshit outfits, the possibly most powerful being in the MCU got to fight in sweats, sneakers, and her hair tied out of her goddammed face! HALLE-FUCKING-LUJAH! I also like her costume redesign. The old coat and pants were cool, but I felt so bad everytime she went into battle in that corset. It looked like it was tied so tight she could rest her chin on her breasts, and that can't have been easy for poor Elizabeth to breathe in.

Shawn said:

Also, are Agents of Shield and Runaways connected with the MCU officially or not since they both deal with the Darkhold? Or is this a different Darkhold? I think the cover looks different between this and the other two series.

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Agents of Shield is weird because it was handled by Marvel itself under their TV division, while the movies were done by Marvel Studios, which is actually a separate division of Disney. This split happened years ago because Kevin Feige (the head of Marvel Studios) hated Ike Perlmutter (the head of Marvel), thus to keep him around Bob Iger broke the original chain of command and made Marvel Studios its own division.

This lead to a one way street where Marvel, wanting to capitalize on the success of the movies, desired to make TV shows that were based in the universe (Thus AoS, Peggy Carter, etc). However, Kevin didn't want Marvel to have any say in the MCU storylines, and thus while the TV shows kept referencing the movies, the movies went out of their way to not reference the shows. Chloe Bennet even referenced her frustration with this in a press interview leading into one of the later seasons. Marvel finally gave up sometime during Infinity War, and took AoS into its own continuity, even going so far as to ignore "the snap" event entirely in the last two seasons.

The Darkhold appearing in WandaVision is just another break in this relationship.

I really liked the episode, honestly any issue I have with it is nitpicking, but I will say a few things.

Darcy felt like she needed a little more? I mean, she pretty much crashed into Hayward, said one line, and poof, vanished. I know she is just a background character, but I liked the dynamic the three had together. Felt that could have had more of an ending, even if only during the mid-credits scene. Instead we only got Jimmy and Monica.

Speaking of Hayward, his end felt a little sloppy. We all knew he was a villain since like half way through the season, but I expected a little more then a quick plan monologue to Jimmy, rolling into the Hex, gets out of a car to silently unload a clip into two kids (really?!"), then quickly tries to drive off and escape, all without a single word of dialogue. It felt like they didn't know what to really do with him once they got Agatha revealed.

ScytheRexx said:

Speaking of Hayward, his end felt a little sloppy. We all knew he was a villain since like half way through the season, but I expected a little more then a quick plan monologue to Jimmy, rolling into the Hex, gets out of a car to silently unload a clip into two kids (really?!"), then quickly tries to drive off and escape, all without a single word of dialogue. It felt like they didn't know what to really do with him once they got Agatha revealed.

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I feel like Hayward, as well as the townspeople at the end, and really there to play up the fact that there are a lot of people who are not thrilled with these powered beings even existing, particularly when their existence directly affects them. He doesn't need to be a big bad - he's just a guy with some power who doesn't like that there are others who will always have more.

Also, whoever wrote Vision's dialog deserved all the awards.

Fun Size said:

Also, whoever wrote Vision's dialog deserved all the awards.

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Vision stole the show any time he was on frame, honestly. His lines were some of the best.

Also, now any time someone confuses me I am going to say "I request elaboration." in the most robotic voice I can.

Also I just wanted to say that Wanda sure picked up astral projection pretty quick since reading the Darkhold. She can even do it while walking around doing other things with her regular body.

I loved this series as a whole, but I kinda feel like the ending was rushed. Like maybe the writers got cut from 10 to 13 episodes down to 9, and this was the version of the ending with a lot cut out.

You actually reminded me, but what is with episode length these days?

Maybe I am just an old fart, but I grew up with television shows having set length. Movies often varied, but due to time slots every episode of a tv show was usually 30 minutes. The bigger shows were usually an hour. Yes, I know a lot of that time was eaten by commercials, but those commercials also had set time intervals, so all the shows had to fit the slots between all that and so usually each episode was the same length from the first episode to the last one.

Lots of the Disney+ shows, including Mandalorian and WandaVision, are just all over the place with episode length. The first episode of WandaVision was only a half hour (including credits! So it was even shorter then a half hour!) then went to 37 minutes, then 33 minutes, then at some point 42 minutes, and ended with 50 minutes.

I mean, I guess when you want to treat the show less like classic television and more like episodic movies, I can get the desire to not be held to a specific episode length, but it really gets on my nerves when one day I make a slot for a possible hour long show only to find its 30 minutes, then the next week when I slot 30 minutes and the next episode is nearly an hour.

Man does anyone else feel like they were trolled when it comes to Quicksilver?

The character was both the fuel and the destruction of some of the shows biggest theories.

It's Quicksilver from another universe! Nope it's Ralph Bohner.

The Ralph that Agatha always talked about is Mephisto! Nope, it was Ralph Bohner.

At this point I wouldn't be surprised if Ralph Bohner was also the witness that Jimmy was checking up on. It was BOHNER ALL ALONG.

Shawn said:

Yeah. I was really bothered by that line. Maybe Wanda didn't know exactly how she did it, but she knew she WAS doing it. "Best of intentions" does not clear someone of the stuff she did. Honestly I not only feel frustrated with Wanda but also with Monica for not even TRYING to ask her to do the right thing and give herself up.

And that Darkhold scene at the end credits just kinda supports my point.

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It was still accidental. It wasn't even negligence!

Frank said:

"These people whom you've tortured beyond reason and comprehension and will undoubtedly suffer lifelong debilitating trauma will never understand that you sacrificed your children you've known for...days? Weeks? YOU'RE THE REAL VICTIM HERE."

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Roughly the same number of days people were held captive? They can form life long traumas in those days but Wanda doesn't get to form any life long anything in the same matter if time? Obviously everyone was the victim here. Because it was all accidental.

ScytheRexx said:

Man does anyone else feel like they were trolled when it comes to Quicksilver?

The character was both the fuel and the destruction of some of the shows biggest theories.

It's Quicksilver from another universe! Nope it's Ralph Bohner.

The Ralph that Agatha always talked about is Mephisto! Nope, it was Ralph Bohner.

At this point I wouldn't be surprised if Ralph Bohner was also the witness that Jimmy was checking up on. It was BOHNER ALL ALONG.

Click to expand...

Nope! It's Chuck Testa!

MindDetective said:

It was still accidental. It wasn't even negligence!



Roughly the same number of days people were held captive? They can form life long traumas in those days but Wanda doesn't get to form any life long anything in the same matter if time? Obviously everyone was the victim here. Because it was all accidental.

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That's how I'm feeling too. She never meant to hurt them, and still at the end didn't realize she was hurting them. Once she did, she was horrified.

Ultimately, it perfectly shows what it's like to be someone grieving and to be around someone who is grieving. Everyone feels helpless to make it better, and the only thing which will help is time.

I dunno, there were many moments during the series where the show portrays her as if she knows what's going on. To hand wave that away seems cheap.

If you say so. I'm just saying how it felt familiar and personal. I'm not here to convince you, though. I felt she was horrified at the end and she even says she thought she was making them happy.

Now that Westview is back to normal, did we ever find out who @Celt Z and @Yoshimickster really are?

Just going to have to tune in to find out.
Excelsior!

Wanda put Agatha into "nosy neighbor" personality as punishment, but would that expire when the hex collapsed and the townsfolk were set free?

klew said:

Wanda put Agatha into "nosy neighbor" personality as punishment, but would that expire when the hex collapsed and the townsfolk were set free?

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Nope. The only thing the Hex actually maintained on its own was Hex Vision and the kids. The rest of the time it just acted as an amplifier for magic she always had, like mental manipulation and reality bending powers.

Remember when Monica escaped the Hex but her 70s disco outfit warped from her old kevlar vest remained? Wanda was not needed to maintain that and neither was the Hex, it was permanent unless Wanda changed it back.

Agatha was specifically cursed by Wanda and transmuted into Agnes, just like Agatha turned the chicada into a bird, and she will stay that way until Wanda turns her back.

Frank said:

"These people whom you've tortured beyond reason and comprehension and will undoubtedly suffer lifelong debilitating trauma will never understand that you sacrificed your children you've known for...days? Weeks? YOU'RE THE REAL VICTIM HERE."

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I dunno, when she was walking by them she just looked ashamed. It had the vibe of "I want to apologize but I know what I did was so shitty, that it wouldn't be right to do so" which is super relatable, at least to me. Monica saying "I would've probably done the same if I could've" was more "I don't think I could've resisted the temptation to do it" not "you did the right thing by doing what you did." She knows there wasn't any malice and Wanda is surrounded by people who completely hate her. It was a gesture of kindness more than a belief that she was right.

Accidental torture is still torture. Especially when you have enough evidence and information available to you to make the realization that what you are doing is torture. Wanda was told several times by individuals that what she was doing was wrong. She made active choices to keep the kids inside, asleep and apart from their families. She forced people to act out HER fantasies. How on earth could anyone realistically think to themselves "This is okay."? Grief is not in anyway an excuse for someone's actions. You can't be let off the hook for something so terrible because "you were sad".
You know what kind of people in movies think that putting people on invisible strings and mind controlling them is what's best for them? Super Villains.

You know what people who are grieving sometimes don't notice? How other people are feeling. And in no way does the show or the main character excuse what she did. That was seriously the point at the end of the episode when Wanda speaks to Monica. Wanda literally says they wouldn't understand, and she is right. No one is letting her off the hook for it, except maybe Monica.

Krisken said:

You know what people who are grieving don't notice? How other people are feeling.

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Sure. But I still don't see how this is an excuse for mind control.

It's not. Like, seriously not. It's degrees of terrible. She feels terrible, then starts to realize what she is doing and excuses it because she thinks she is making things better for them (notice at the beginning of episode 8 how miserable everyone looked?), then episode 9 she is TOLD they are feeling her nightmares and she realizes what a truly awful thing she is doing. Only after she is able to see that the pain she is feeling is being projected onto everyone else is she able to come back and break from her grief.

She knew what she is doing was shitty, thats why she kept the children asleep the entire time. Its just when the people are talking to her it breaks the cognitive dissonance.

It's like being super sad about something, getting into a car, driving over a bunch of people in the street, and trying to excuse it by saying you were crying too hard to notice anyone.

Shawn said:

It's like being a super powered reality warper who while grieving the loss of their soul mate is in a super fugue state and being oblivious about what is going on, getting into a car, driving over a bunch of people in the street, and once you realize what had happened not trying to excuse it by saying you didn't know what was happening but couldn't say anything to make the horrible thing you did ok.

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More like THAT.

Krisken said:

More like THAT.

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Well... and then after not being able to say anything that makes it okay you fly off, completely avoiding any kind of consequences for what you've done apart from your own guilt.

Shawn said:

Well... and then after not being able to say anything that makes it okay you fly off, completely avoiding any kind of consequences for what you've done apart from your own guilt.

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I mean, ya got me there. But I guess considering she could destroy the earth, yay?

Also, keep in mind she is the nexus of the multiverse. Like, literally the thing which is constant across all realities. I guess i call it a win when a god doesn't destroy everything.

But it's not like we are debating reality here, but a realistic interpretation of a god like being dealing with grief.

Shawn said:

Well... and then after not being able to say anything that makes it okay you fly off, completely avoiding any kind of consequences for what you've done apart from your own guilt.

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Consequences like what? Super jail? It was an accidental use of her powers that she didn't fully understand (NOT like driving over people, which is negligence at best). Jail is just a way to give one person's shitty feelings more validity over another person's shitty feelings in the form of vengeance. Jail wouldn't be any more fair than Wanda leaving. This is a situation where therapy is what is needed, not punishment.

Krisken said:

I mean, ya got me there. But I guess considering she could destroy the earth, yay?

Also, keep in mind she is the nexus of the multiverse. Like, literally the thing which is constant across all realities. I guess i call it a win when a god doesn't destroy everything.

But it's not like we are debating reality here, but a realistic interpretation of a god like being dealing with grief.

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Well the difference for me here is what the character deems okay and justified, and what the show tries to make sound okay and justified.
If it was simply Wanda flying off, avoiding consequences, because she is a grieving, confused, but overall selfish person, then that's okay because the show is showing that she is flawed and doing the wrong thing.
The end of WandaVision makes it feel like the show itself is trying to justify her decision. This is clear when Monica, who is considered a voice of reason so far, lets her go without a word. Through Monica justifying Wanda's actions so does the show.
Meanwhile a character like Superman, who could easily destroy the world too, would immediately submit himself to arrest and sit quietly in a jail cell that he could escape from at any time.

MindDetective said:

Consequences like what? Super jail? It was an accidental use of her powers that she didn't fully understand (NOT like driving over people, which is negligence at best). Jail is just a way to give one person's shitty feelings more validity over another person's shitty feelings in the form of vengeance. Jail wouldn't be any more fair than Wanda leaving. This is a situation where therapy is what is needed, not punishment.

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Mind controlling people, being told that you're hurting people and then ignoring that information is a lot worse than even negligence.

Shawn said:

Mind controlling people, being told that you're hurting people and then ignoring that information is a lot worse than even negligence.

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She didn't ignore them. She didn't believe them. They didn't present evidence or anything. They just claimed it.

MindDetective said:

She didn't ignore them. She didn't believe them. They didn't present evidence or anything. They just claimed it.

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She willingly kept the children at home and asleep to not subject them to what was going on. Pretty sure she knew.

Shawn said:

She willingly kept the children at home and asleep to not subject them to what was going on. Pretty sure she knew.

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She did almost everything unconsciously in a manner she didn't understand. Why do you suspect she knew that part?

MindDetective said:

She did almost everything unconsciously in a manner she didn't understand. Why do you suspect she knew that part?

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Because she was straight up told she was doing it.

Shawn said:

Because she was straight up told she was doing it.

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As I said above. She didn't believe anyone's motives when they told her such things. When she WAS convinced she did the right thing. They made that much pretty clear, I think.

MindDetective said:

As I said above. She didn't believe anyone's motives when they told her such things. When she WAS convinced she did the right thing. They made that much pretty clear, I think.

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But before she did the right thing you need to ask just how much is "Willful Ignorance" an excuse for the bad stuff?

Shawn said:

But before she did the right thing you need to ask just how much is "Willful Ignorance" an excuse for the bad stuff?

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Again, I disagree that it was willful ignorance. It was distrust and disbelief in the claims (without evidence) that people were making. It would be willful ignorance if she saw it for herself and closed her eyes to it.

MindDetective said:

Again, I disagree that it was willful ignorance. It was distrust and disbelief in the claims (without evidence) that people were making. It would be willful ignorance if she saw it for herself and closed her eyes to it.

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I think it also qualifies as willful ignorance if she knows there is a possibility that someone is being truthful with her about her actions, but she chooses to not even bother to check. Especially when what is being said is well within the grand scope of the situation.
Altering the car analogy a bit, It's like being inside what you think is a driving simulation (its enclosed. Sound proof. Shock proof. There is a video screen showing you a happy neighborhood.). Someone breaks inside and tells you that you are NOT in a simulation and you are hurting people. You can A) Ignore the person. Kick them out of your simulation. And continue driving without questioning what just happened, or B) at least entertain the idea that something might be wrong and taking a peek outside just to be on the safe side.
A) is willful ignorance. Choosing to ignore information so that you can blissfully live without guilt. When people are being hurt than this is punishable.

I've highjacked this thread enough.
My point is I just feel the show justified her actions. I don't like it but it's what happened. The MCU will still be one of my favorite things in entertainment.

Shawn said:

I think it also qualifies as willful ignorance if she knows there is a possibility that someone is being truthful with her about her actions, but she chooses to not even bother to check. Especially when what is being said is well within the grand scope of the situation.
Altering the car analogy a bit, It's like being inside what you think is a driving simulation (its enclosed. Sound proof. Shock proof. There is a video screen showing you a happy neighborhood.). Someone breaks inside and tells you that you are NOT in a simulation and you are hurting people. You can A) Ignore the person. Kick them out of your simulation. And continue driving without questioning what just happened, or B) at least entertain the idea that something might be wrong and taking a peek outside just to be on the safe side.
A) is willful ignorance. Choosing to ignore information so that you can blissfully live without guilt. When people are being hurt than this is punishable.

I've highjacked this thread enough.
My point is I just feel the show justified her actions. I don't like it but it's what happened. The MCU will still be one of my favorite things in entertainment.

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See, you have the curse of knowledge. You can see everything that Wanda cannot. Someone breaking into my car deserves suspicion and distrust.

MindDetective said:

See, you have the curse of knowledge. You can see everything that Wanda cannot. Someone breaking into my car deserves suspicion and distrust.

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But it's a car you stole in the first place.

Shawn said:

She willingly kept the children at home and asleep to not subject them to what was going on. Pretty sure she knew.

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This isn't exactly true, she did bring out the kids when she needed them for her own kids to have Halloween.

I think the issue is, Wanda knew she was controlling them, but didn't understand the extent of how she was controlling them. This isn't the best analogy, but I think she saw them as ants in an ant farm. She felt she kept them safe, fed, gave them everything she could, like better houses, better jobs, etc, but that they were still doing their own things. Remember, her mental powers up to this point were not about literal control, but instead persuasion, like sending Hulk into a rampage or giving the Avengers nightmares. She thought all the people were still "living a life", just one that she "nudged" like some kind of benevolent dictator. What she didn't understand was she was literally controlling everything they did, so much so that people on the edge of town existed like statues since they were not needed by the plotlines.

It was the finale where she finally realized the extent of her influence, and that was what freaked her out. She literally thought Agatha was mind controlling the town because she didn't realize how much she had been mind controlling them herself ("What are you doing to them?" "Their your meat puppets, I am just cutting the strings."). All the people she mainly interacted with, Vision, the Kids, Agatha, and Ralph, were never ever fully under her control, and thus they set the template she thought all the others existed as.

Shawn said:

But it's a car you stole in the first place.

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Not knowingly. People have to break into my car to tell me as much. Therein lies the problem.

Very good finale. As I thought, no significant influence on any possible movies.

As a whole it revealed one big thing, Wanda is a world ending threat level character and the Pulsar origin story. It revealled TWO big things, Wanda is a world ending threat level character and the Pulsar origin story and Vision is back in the world. It revealled THREE big things, Wanda is a world ending threat level character and the Pulsar origin story and Vision is back in the world, and Darcy is the new go to scientist of the MCU. It revealled FOUR big things, Wanda is a world ending threat level character and the Pulsar origin story and Vision is back in the world, and Darcy is the new go to scientist of the MCU and FBI Agent Woo is the new Coulson. Arrgh.

It revealed one big thing, Wanda is a world ending threat level character. That's it, nothing else.

I was inspired to make a meme.

I just realized they did the "turn the lights out" thing during a finale that many sitcom finales have done. And was joked or parodied in later sitcoms.

Shawn said:

She willingly kept the children at home and asleep to not subject them to what was going on. Pretty sure she knew.

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While I see what you're saying, this point keeps coming up, and I think you're missing something vital - old sitcoms only include children when they are necessary for the plot. Like, literal family members wouldn't be seen for entire episodes if they weren't part of that weeks storyline. I actually really loved that point, because I didn't notice it at all until Vision pointed it out.

David said:

View attachment 37283

I was inspired to make a meme.

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OMG @David you can't just ask some one why they're white.

What's really funny is after this, it gives me some sympathy for Tony and the scene where he is attacking Cap. Cap says "This won't change the past" and Tony says "I don't care, he killed my mom". I get it now, more than I did then. Doesn't mean he was right, though. Remorse over what one has done is big for these characters.

I see so many people angry that certain theories - which were never promised - never came true.

No Mephisto or Nightmare. No Quicksilver from the X-Men movies.
(EDIT: No Dr Strange, no Reed Richards)

Which I don't get. Yeah, we all theorized about it, but to get upset the story didn't go the way you wanted is silly.

If anything, NOT including a big evil bad guy controlling it all makes Wanda's story of trauma and grief even more important.

Adding Evan Peters was a brilliant red herring for both Wanda and fans but it was never hinted that he was the same character crossing over. I'd said from the beginning that I wasn't convinced it was him and I'm glad he's not in the end because it needlessly overcomplicates a story about grieving. I'm also glad the story is largely its own thing without being a direct prequel to Dr Strange 2 or something.

Well, looking at the planned roll out, it's all nutters now, so I doubt TV MCU will ever impact movies. Movie build on previous films, and TV might build upon previous TV, but TV will never take away from Movies, only strengthen it.

Aren't we 3 films behind now? Black Widow, Kims Convenience and Eternals?

HCGLNS said:

Aren't we 3 films behind now? Black Widow, Kims Convenience and Eternals?

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LOL, too me too long to get that.

@GasBandit - Simu Liu, or Shang-Chi in the MCU, is also one of the stars of the Netflix series Kim's Convenience.
(The dad also has a recurring role on The Mandalorian.)

It's a Canadian Broadcasting Company (CBC) comedy and as such quite Canadian.

I love Kim's Convenience.

HCGLNS said:

It's a Canadian Broadcasting Company (CBC) comedy and as such quite Canadian.

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and all these years i thought CBC was just Hockey, News, and Fred Penner’s Place.

Nah, you get the occasional gem out of CBC like Kids in the Hall, Kim's Convenience, Schitt's Creek, etc.

ThatNickGuy said:

Adding Evan Peters was a brilliant red herring for both Wanda and fans but it was never hinted that he was the same character crossing over.

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I've been thinking about it and I don't particularly agree with this. Dottie was a really good red herring since it seemed like something odd there outside of the rest of the oddness. For the children chanting and all that. Evan Peters Quicksilver was just trolling. They knew the baggage casting him would bring.

HCGLNS said:

It's a Canadian Broadcasting Company (CBC) comedy and as such quite Canadian.

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True for both, but Netflix is how we get to see it south of the border.

Frank said:

I've been thinking about it and I don't particularly agree with this. Dottie was a really good red herring since it seemed like something odd there outside of the rest of the oddness. For the children chanting and all that. Evan Peters Quicksilver was just trolling. They knew the baggage casting him would bring.

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It was stunt casting. The second he showed up probably 80% of people knew who he was supposed to be. It was legitimately my favorite moment in the entire run.

But I didn't convince myself that this made the x-men cinematic universe canon in the MCU.

Celt Z said:

@GasBandit - Simu Liu, or Shang-Chi in the MCU, is also one of the stars of the Netflix series Kim's Convenience.
(The dad also has a recurring role on The Mandalorian.)

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Shiang-Chi was originally supposed to be released at the start of the 2021 Lunar New Year. That would have been so fitting.

Dubyamn said:

It was stunt casting. The second he showed up probably 80% of people knew who he was supposed to be. It was legitimately my favorite moment in the entire run.

But I didn't convince myself that this made the x-men cinematic universe canon in the MCU.

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But he still made no sense. So he’s just a dude from the town? So why does he have powers?

Dave said:

But he still made no sense. So he’s just a dude from the town? So why does he have powers?

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He was given them by Agatha.

The magic necklace.

blotsfan said:

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*Witch

Wizards/witches/sorcerers are just magic users with different hats.

A sorcerer is just a wizard without a hat.

Pretty sure the preferred headgear for sorcerers is a tiara.

Had a discussion with someone and we came to the conclusion that Evan Peters was a great choice when you frame it in the scope of what the show was about, Wanda.

Think about it, the whole point of him showing up was to confuse Wanda. Here was her brother, but not actually her brother, showing up out of nowhere. Using the original MCU actor for Quicksilver wouldn't have been confusing, and using some random new actor wouldn't have been unsettling. By choosing an actor that also played Quicksilver in a different franchise to impersonate her brother, they brought us into the confusing "Is this really happening? Is this real?" mindspace of Wanda, and thus it fits really well into the nature of the show. I think this was just a casualty of WandaVision being pushed up to be the start of Phase 4, when before there were multiple shows and movies happening before it pre-COVID. It's likely going through those stories would have better prepared us to not have such high expectations on Evan's casting, and see it more as the sort of "meta commentary into Wanda's confused mind" that it was, instead we saw it as them literally bringing in the Fox X-Men, and I think we need to be real here that Kevin isn't likely to adopt stories he didn't have a say in crafting.

Krisken said:

Wizards/witches/sorcerers are just magic users with different hats.

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Celt Z said:

A sorcerer is just a wizard without a hat.

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--Patrick

Except she is now learning from a book so she's... multiclassing? Nah, Marvel don't care about D&D rules.

There are some people already saying Mephisto is going to end up being the main bad guy of Loki, because there is a scene where Mobius M Mobius is giving something to a little girl and there is a stained glass window that looks similar to what you would see of Jesus, but a demon of some sort instead.

ScytheRexx said:

There are some people already saying Mephisto is going to end up being the main bad guy of Loki, because there is a scene where Mobius M Mobius is giving something to a little girl and there is a stained glass window that looks similar to what you would see of Jesus, but a demon of some sort instead.

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Ugh, people need to STOP trying to come up with all these fucking theories. Just wait and enjoy the fucking movie.

That is exactly something Mephisto would say....

I, for one, welcome future developments in the MCU.

The Mephisto Cinematic Universe.

Tress said:

Ugh, people need to STOP trying to come up with all these fucking theories. Just wait and enjoy the fucking movie.

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Let people have any fun they can. I just wish people didn't get worked up when their theories don't come true.

Absolutely zero of my own theories came true, even the one I thought was a given of Hex Vision merging with White Vision. I am perfectly okay with that. It's just fun to theorize.

Frank said:

Let people have any fun they can. I just wish people didn't get worked up when their theories don't come true.

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Fair enough. When you said that, I realized the only problem I have is all the whining and complaining when unsubstantiated theories don’t come true.

Tress said:

Fair enough. When you said that, I realized the only problem I have is all the whining and complaining when unsubstantiated theories don’t come true.

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THAT fuckin' sucks.

DOTTIE WASN'T MEPHISTO, THEREFORE I MUST BURN THE WHOLE INTERNET DOWN!! IT'S THE ONLY RECOURSE!

The actress that plays Dottie admitted she was added as a red herring. Not only because her hex name and everything was based around a comic character, but because the actress herself is decently popular and so people expected her to have a larger role in the series. She said they knew this going in and wanted it to add to the mystery much like the Evan Peters casting. The writers really were messing with the fan theorists lol.

Needed more bunnies.

Celt Z said:

Needed more bunnies.

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So you were hoping for full-on horror, then?

Did anyone else notice that when Agatha killed Sparky, she had a perm.

Just sayin.

Wandavision animated version

Watched the first two episodes yesterday. I'm glad I know from this place that it gets better - the first episode especially didn't hold any interest for me whatsoever, as I feared /expected.
And reading up on what Wanda and Vision have done before this, man, Sheesh. I'm not one for picking up on references but I feel like I'm missing 90% of them here.

References are just rewards for comic book readers and have no impact on the TV/movies.

So covid is kicking NS ass pretty hard right now. It's sad and depressing. But we are hopeful, we've fought it back twice now and vaccinations are ahead of schedule. So there is hope.

So why am I posting here?

Because the Disneyworld Halloween Parade with Agatha Harkness will be fucking banging yall!

Who's that spreading covid to NS?

Finished the series. I liked it overall, though there was definitely some room for improvement and some handwavey explanations going on. Onwards to TFATWS if I can ever find it somewhere to watch.

Bubble181 said:

Finished the series. I liked it overall, though there was definitely some room for improvement and some handwavey explanations going on. Onwards to TFATWS if I can ever find it somewhere to watch.

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I've got the first six episodes on my seedbox, I was gonna wait until I have everything to download it to my plex server, but fiiiine Gimme 10 mins.

blotsfan said:

Who's that spreading covid to NS?

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It was Agatha all along!

(actually Ontario)

GasBandit said:

I've got the first six episodes on my seedbox, I was gonna wait until I have everything to download it to my plex server, but fiiiine Gimme 10 mins.

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I really can wait sorry, didn't know you intended to upload them later, no rush at all!

Bubble181 said:

I really can wait sorry, didn't know you intended to upload them later, no rush at all!

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The first six episodes should be there now, the rest will be there as availability happens.

My wife will give you many hugs and cuddles, if and when it's allowed again and you happen to find yourself in Belgium :-P

GasBandit said:

The first six episodes should be there now, the rest will be there as availability happens.

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Six is all there is

Ravenpoe said:

Six is all there is

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Odd, for some reason I thought there was going to be eight.

figmentPez said:

There were nine episodes of Wandavision.

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We mean of falcon and Winter soldier.

GasBandit said:

Odd, for some reason I thought there was going to be eight.

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I think that was the original plan, but it was cut down due to Covid.

There was actually a whole subplot removed. There was supposedly a whole thing about a virus getting out and killing people. From what we know the virus was created by the Power Broker, who then controlled the only vaccines. The Flagsmashers went rogue stealing the vaccines from the Power Broker to give to those that couldn't afford the Power Broker's monopoly, and with the help of moles inside the US Government (Likely Val AKA Julia's character),the Power Broker created John Walker to stop them.

It's likely, considering the whole show also had a deep subplot about the nature of refugees and minority discrimination, they likely felt they were stacking a bit too many "controversial" topics on top of each other for a single show, so they dropped the vaccine plot and replaced most of those scenes with stolen super soldier serum instead, leaving a good chunk of the show feeling disjointed.

ScytheRexx said:

It's likely, considering the whole show also had a deep subplot about the nature of refugees and minority discrimination, they likely felt they were stacking a bit too many "controversial" topics on top of each other for a single show, so they dropped the vaccine plot and replaced most of those scenes with stolen super soldier serum instead, leaving a good chunk of the show feeling disjointed.

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It's been stated the plague and vaccine subplot were dropped because it was too similar to the pandemic-hell we were all experiencing. Thus we get a disjointed story and reshoots of action scenes in empty warehouses.