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Why are rape jokes out of bounds?
#1
Necronic
Necronic
This hit me when I was reading the IT articles attached in the sexism and bullying thread. First off, let me be clear, I DO think they are out of bounds, but I'm not sure why. Why is it that rape is given some special priveledge that doesnt exist with murder, child sexual or physical abuse, or genocide.
Murder is always tossed around in different ways. Jokes of course, or in threats (my team is goin to murder your team.). But honestly murder may be the single worst thing you can do to someone. Why is it more ok to joke around with that than with rape?
Child abuse is even worse, because it's basically raping a child. Yet there are some pretty hilarious jokes around about this, especially when you add a priest. It's far less common than how we joke about murder, but it is still there. And when it comes to smacking a child, another pretty heinous crime, this is joked about somewhat commonly as well (more so than sexual abuse)
Then there's Genocide. Take the worst thin you can do to someone, murder, and multiply it by thousands. 911, Hutus and Tutsis, even the Holocaust. People make jokes about this.
So what's different about rape? For me the thing that got me to stop making rape jokes was having a person close to me get raped. It was an awful experience and they almost killed themselves after. But it makes me think that it all has to do with proximity. Murdered people aren't overly PC, being dead and all, and while the survivors may be sensitive, they aren't really the victims of murder. And with Child abuse, while its turning out to be quite common, most of us don't know that we know someone who is a victim o child abuse.
I dunno, what do you think? Why is rape the off limits one? Why not murder?
Murder is always tossed around in different ways. Jokes of course, or in threats (my team is goin to murder your team.). But honestly murder may be the single worst thing you can do to someone. Why is it more ok to joke around with that than with rape?
Child abuse is even worse, because it's basically raping a child. Yet there are some pretty hilarious jokes around about this, especially when you add a priest. It's far less common than how we joke about murder, but it is still there. And when it comes to smacking a child, another pretty heinous crime, this is joked about somewhat commonly as well (more so than sexual abuse)
Then there's Genocide. Take the worst thin you can do to someone, murder, and multiply it by thousands. 911, Hutus and Tutsis, even the Holocaust. People make jokes about this.
So what's different about rape? For me the thing that got me to stop making rape jokes was having a person close to me get raped. It was an awful experience and they almost killed themselves after. But it makes me think that it all has to do with proximity. Murdered people aren't overly PC, being dead and all, and while the survivors may be sensitive, they aren't really the victims of murder. And with Child abuse, while its turning out to be quite common, most of us don't know that we know someone who is a victim o child abuse.
I dunno, what do you think? Why is rape the off limits one? Why not murder?
#2
Dave
Dave
I think it has to do with the victims. With murder, the victim isn't still around to hear the jokes. The families still are, but not the victims. With rape, not only is it something that is frequently hidden as a secret shame, but the victims have to live with the violence every day. Which is also why child abuse jokes don't work. It's a helpless victim that just isn't that funny.
The holocaust jokes probably weren't told that much in the 1940's & 1950's.
The holocaust jokes probably weren't told that much in the 1940's & 1950's.
#3
Necronic
Necronic
Well, Hogans Heros came out in the 60s I think. Not exactly holocaust jokes but you did have a Jew playing a Nazi (Clink). And then you have racism. There was progressive racially charged humor all the way back in the 60s. To generalize it as much as I can, most of humor is about tragedy. Not all of it, but a lot of it is about some human suffering.
Perhaps the difference between the Hogans Heros/progressive Racial humor and Rape Jokes is that in the former, there is a "bad guy" (Nazi and racist) and he is lampooned, whereas in the latter, the victim is lampooned.
Perhaps the difference between the Hogans Heros/progressive Racial humor and Rape Jokes is that in the former, there is a "bad guy" (Nazi and racist) and he is lampooned, whereas in the latter, the victim is lampooned.
#4
Cajungal
Cajungal
Some would argue that leaving you alive with memories of being used in the most horrifying way possible is on the same level as murder. I'm not stating my opinion there.
Also, consider who the victim usually is: a woman or a child, someone who's generally weaker and can't fight someone off. It's insane that 40 Days and 40 Nights was still considered a comedy even though the protagonist is raped at the end. But he was a guy, so people treated it differently. If that had been a woman swearing off sex who got fucked in her sleep, that movie wouldn't have been made.
Murder is horrible, but it's something that people choose to justify sometimes. War, self-defense, crime of passion, etc. It's an awful thing that it's socially acceptable to defend sometimes (again, just observing here). Rape isn't. You can't argue that someone ever made you feel so threatened or so angry that you just couldn't help but overpower them and use their body for sex. I guess you technically could, but it would be horrifying and disgusting.
I've pondered what I would do in a situation when my life felt threatened. What if I were in the army? What would I do in the event of a home invasion? If someone killed one of my loved ones, would I have it in me to kill someone out of revenge? Dark thoughts, but people have them. I've never gone to a dark enough place to think about making someone feel exposed, vulnerable, and humiliated, and then leaving them alive to cope with the memories. That's... different.
Also, consider who the victim usually is: a woman or a child, someone who's generally weaker and can't fight someone off. It's insane that 40 Days and 40 Nights was still considered a comedy even though the protagonist is raped at the end. But he was a guy, so people treated it differently. If that had been a woman swearing off sex who got fucked in her sleep, that movie wouldn't have been made.
Murder is horrible, but it's something that people choose to justify sometimes. War, self-defense, crime of passion, etc. It's an awful thing that it's socially acceptable to defend sometimes (again, just observing here). Rape isn't. You can't argue that someone ever made you feel so threatened or so angry that you just couldn't help but overpower them and use their body for sex. I guess you technically could, but it would be horrifying and disgusting.
I've pondered what I would do in a situation when my life felt threatened. What if I were in the army? What would I do in the event of a home invasion? If someone killed one of my loved ones, would I have it in me to kill someone out of revenge? Dark thoughts, but people have them. I've never gone to a dark enough place to think about making someone feel exposed, vulnerable, and humiliated, and then leaving them alive to cope with the memories. That's... different.
#5
sixpackshaker
sixpackshaker
I think the victim matters, that is why prison rape jokes get told with regularity. The victim is not powerless, but is just not powerful enough to stop what is about to happen.
#6
Tress
Tress
I think a big part of why rape is off-limits has to do with how women were treated throughout history. It wasn't long ago (historically speaking) that raping a woman was no big deal - and we sometimes still have problems with that kind of thinking now. The casual regard people had towards rape was ugly. Now, in modern society, that's no longer acceptable. I think rape jokes being off-limits is a collective decision in society to make it clear as possible that we don't disregard rape as a subject anymore.
But this is 100% speculation on my part.
But this is 100% speculation on my part.
#7
phil
phil
I read an article somewhere that explained it to me well. I'll try to paraphrase it for now but I'll also try to find it when I can.
1) Because rape comes in so many different forms than what we might think, a surprising number of people have committed some kind of act of rape, or at least sexual harassment. Because of that, joking about it can lead to people who have done something to feeling justified in their actions.
2) It adds to the idea of rape culture, which is the idea that rape has become something of an acceptable statistic. This is what can lead to misconceptions about what rape really looks like, and lawmakers spouting off nonsense about it being a gift from god or questioning if it was legitimate.
So to more directly answer your question as to why rape is more taboo to joke about than murder, I'd say it's because chances are you might know a rapist. He or she might not be open about it or even consider what they did to be rape, which just confounds the issue further. I'd be willing to bet though, that you don't know a murderer.
Here's the article that really made me rethink some things:
www.care2.com/causes/rape-jokes-are-no-laughing-matter.html
1) Because rape comes in so many different forms than what we might think, a surprising number of people have committed some kind of act of rape, or at least sexual harassment. Because of that, joking about it can lead to people who have done something to feeling justified in their actions.
2) It adds to the idea of rape culture, which is the idea that rape has become something of an acceptable statistic. This is what can lead to misconceptions about what rape really looks like, and lawmakers spouting off nonsense about it being a gift from god or questioning if it was legitimate.
So to more directly answer your question as to why rape is more taboo to joke about than murder, I'd say it's because chances are you might know a rapist. He or she might not be open about it or even consider what they did to be rape, which just confounds the issue further. I'd be willing to bet though, that you don't know a murderer.
Here's the article that really made me rethink some things:
www.care2.com/causes/rape-jokes-are-no-laughing-matter.html
#8
Necronic
I think the truth is that it's a personal conscience/guilt based on knowing a victim of rape. Which...I dunno it's kind of shitty because it implies that our empathy is only at arms length, somethig I suspect is probably true.
Necronic
I Want to think that this is the reason, because it shows us as reasonable, progressive, and socially empathic beings, my problem with this is that the exact same could be said of Slavery, and slavery jokes can really whip a crowd up. It could be that slavery is so far gone that there's no reason to be careful about it as a topic....except that it's totally not gone and it's still everywhere.I think a big part of why rape is off-limits has to do with how women were treated throughout history. It wasn't long ago (historically speaking) that raping a woman was no big deal - and we sometimes still have problems with that kind of thinking now. The casual regard people had towards rape was ugly. Now, in modern society, that's no longer acceptable. I think rape jokes being off-limits is a collective decision in society to make it clear as possible that we don't disregard rape as a subject anymore.
But this is 100% speculation on my part.
I think the truth is that it's a personal conscience/guilt based on knowing a victim of rape. Which...I dunno it's kind of shitty because it implies that our empathy is only at arms length, somethig I suspect is probably true.
#9
Bowielee
Bowielee
I'm just gonna grab some popcorn and wait for the Charlie response to this. 
#10
phil
phil
exact same could be said of Slavery, and slavery jokes can really whip a crowd up.
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#11
Dave
Dave
Again, there's no slaves or slavers hanging around anywhere now. It's a matter of the victims.I Want to think that this is the reason, because it shows us as reasonable, progressive, and socially empathic beings, my problem with this is that the exact same could be said of Slavery, and slavery jokes can really whip a crowd up. It could be that slavery is so far gone that there's no reason to be careful about it as a topic....except that it's totally not gone and it's still everywhere.
I think the truth is that it's a personal conscience/guilt based on knowing a victim of rape. Which...I dunno it's kind of shitty because it implies that our empathy is only at arms length, somethig I suspect is probably true.
#12
strawman
strawman
First, a staggering 25 to 30 percent of girls are sexually abused in some form or another before they are 18. About 16 to 20 percent of boys are sexually abused before they are 18.
If you have a group of more than 5 people present, you can safely bet on one person in that group having suffered sexual abuse as a child, and the incidence merely goes up from there.
I suspect a lot of the cultural antipathy towards rape jokes specifically has to do with presence of victims. You don't tell rape jokes when one is present, and since you can't tell when one is present you don't tell one. This isn't taught, it is learned. When someone makes rape jokes, someone else will eventually pull them aside and tell them to stop because they were the victim of rape. It doesn't take too many of these experiences for someone to find out just how prevalent sexual abuse is in our society.
But rape jokes are far from uncommon. It wasn't too many years ago that we had someone on this board insisting that they could turn any lesbian straight with a forced sex act. They obviously meant this to be funny, and would not actually act on it, but it still presented an oppressive environment where women were objectified and threatened.
We still see the image macro "40# box of rape - you know you want to open it" once in awhile. More frequently you'll see "die in a fire" and "I will cut you" as acts of violence, but far fewer people have been tortured, stabbed, shot, or mutilated than have been sexually abused.
Human beings have an instinctual sex drive they must keep in its proper bounds, but they don't have an instinctual murder or torture drive (generally speaking) so you will always see a higher incidence of sexual abuse than you will see of other types of abuse. Further, it's easier to abuse those that are physically, emotionally, financially, etc weaker, so you'll see a lot more abuse against children than adults, and in our patriarchal society a lot more against women than men. There is a difference between the sex drive of men and women which also contributes, but even if the sex drives were the same, I suspect in our society you'd still see far more female victims than male.
So yeah, sexual abuse is different enough, and common enough, compared to other forms of abuse that you can't readily joke about it without hurting someone who was already a victim of sexual abuse.
If you have a group of more than 5 people present, you can safely bet on one person in that group having suffered sexual abuse as a child, and the incidence merely goes up from there.
I suspect a lot of the cultural antipathy towards rape jokes specifically has to do with presence of victims. You don't tell rape jokes when one is present, and since you can't tell when one is present you don't tell one. This isn't taught, it is learned. When someone makes rape jokes, someone else will eventually pull them aside and tell them to stop because they were the victim of rape. It doesn't take too many of these experiences for someone to find out just how prevalent sexual abuse is in our society.
But rape jokes are far from uncommon. It wasn't too many years ago that we had someone on this board insisting that they could turn any lesbian straight with a forced sex act. They obviously meant this to be funny, and would not actually act on it, but it still presented an oppressive environment where women were objectified and threatened.
We still see the image macro "40# box of rape - you know you want to open it" once in awhile. More frequently you'll see "die in a fire" and "I will cut you" as acts of violence, but far fewer people have been tortured, stabbed, shot, or mutilated than have been sexually abused.
Human beings have an instinctual sex drive they must keep in its proper bounds, but they don't have an instinctual murder or torture drive (generally speaking) so you will always see a higher incidence of sexual abuse than you will see of other types of abuse. Further, it's easier to abuse those that are physically, emotionally, financially, etc weaker, so you'll see a lot more abuse against children than adults, and in our patriarchal society a lot more against women than men. There is a difference between the sex drive of men and women which also contributes, but even if the sex drives were the same, I suspect in our society you'd still see far more female victims than male.
So yeah, sexual abuse is different enough, and common enough, compared to other forms of abuse that you can't readily joke about it without hurting someone who was already a victim of sexual abuse.
#13
GasBandit
GasBandit
That's a profound point that had never occurred to me before, and I think I'll appropriate it, for future discussions of the difference between rape and murder - it's possible to kill in self defense, but it's not possible to rape in self defense.Murder is horrible, but it's something that people choose to justify sometimes. War, self-defense, crime of passion, etc. It's an awful thing that it's socially acceptable to defend sometimes (again, just observing here). Rape isn't.
#14
Necronic
Ed: I guess what I'm realizing with all of this is that we don't avoid rape jokes because rape is immoral, we avoid rape jokes to avoid the risk of social embarrassment due to sayin it to a rape victim. That's kind of fucked up.
Necronic
That would be news to all the slaves out there.Again, there's no slaves or slavers hanging around anywhere now. It's a matter of the victims.
Ed: I guess what I'm realizing with all of this is that we don't avoid rape jokes because rape is immoral, we avoid rape jokes to avoid the risk of social embarrassment due to sayin it to a rape victim. That's kind of fucked up.
#15
strawman
strawman
Not because we might be embarrassed, but because we might be causing someone pain. In a society we try to form rules that allow everyone maximum freedom with minimum pain.
This is merely a social item that may result in emotional pain for another person in our society.
I don't think you can correlate immorality with whether a joke is acceptable or not. There are tons of "immoral" jokes, for instance, about adultery, which are much less offensive than rape. Yet in an adulturous relationship there is still a victim, and in a comedy club you can count on there being people there who were hurt by it.
But it's not nearly as scarring as rape, which, as far as I can tell, is a form of torture.
This is merely a social item that may result in emotional pain for another person in our society.
I don't think you can correlate immorality with whether a joke is acceptable or not. There are tons of "immoral" jokes, for instance, about adultery, which are much less offensive than rape. Yet in an adulturous relationship there is still a victim, and in a comedy club you can count on there being people there who were hurt by it.
But it's not nearly as scarring as rape, which, as far as I can tell, is a form of torture.
#16
Gilgamesh
Gilgamesh
I'm just gonna grab some popcorn and wait for the Charlie response to this.
#17
strawman
Better add a smiley so people understand I'm joking.
strawman
YOU SHOULDN'T MAKE FUN OF PEOPLE WITH ESOPHAGEAL DEFECTS THAT REQUIRE THEM TO MOVE THEIR NECK IN ORDER TO SWALLOW.
Better add a smiley so people understand I'm joking.
#18
sixpackshaker
sixpackshaker
Best trigger topic ever.YOU SHOULDN'T MAKE FUN OF PEOPLE WITH ESOPHAGEAL DEFECTS THAT REQUIRE THEM TO MOVE THEIR NECK IN ORDER TO SWALLOW.
#19
Ravenpoe
I've always hated the one in five example, it's a gross oversimplification.
Ravenpoe
How many kids do you have again?If you have a group of more than 5 people present, you can safely bet on one person in that group having suffered sexual abuse as a child, and the incidence merely goes up from there.
I've always hated the one in five example, it's a gross oversimplification.
#20
strawman
However it is so common that it's foolish to think that just because your current group comes from a middle class or better background with education and success that the chances are so low as to be worth ignoring.
strawman
Sexual abuse isn't randomly distributed, so yes, you will find yourself in groups of significantly lower sexual abuse and sometimes in other groups of higher incidence.How many kids do you have again?
I've always hated the one in five example, it's a gross oversimplification.
However it is so common that it's foolish to think that just because your current group comes from a middle class or better background with education and success that the chances are so low as to be worth ignoring.
#21
Ravenpoe
That and going for the cheap and tasteless joke, I'm clearly not cut out for this thread.
Ravenpoe
I never implied it should be ignored, I was stating a pet peeve about your example.Sexual abuse isn't randomly distributed, so yes, you will find yourself in groups of significantly lower sexual abuse and sometimes in other groups of higher incidence.
However it is so common that it's foolish to think that just because your current group comes from a middle class or better background with education and success that the chances are so low as to be worth ignoring.
That and going for the cheap and tasteless joke, I'm clearly not cut out for this thread.
#22
Bowielee
Bowielee
That would be more on topic than most posts.I never implied it should be ignored, I was stating a pet peeve about your example.
That and going for the cheap and tasteless joke, I'm clearly not cut out for this thread.
#23
Charlie Don't Surf
Charlie Don't Surf
short version: if rape is a joke, more people will rape.
#24
Gilgamesh
Gilgamesh
short version: if rape is a joke, more people will rape.
#25
Dave
Dave
Disregarding Gil's image, I tend to think this may be fairly accurate. It lessens the perceived impact. There is already a disconnect on what rape is for a great number of people. Making it something that is the butt of a joke would just help these people disassociate the severity of the act.short version: if rape is a joke, more people will rape.
#26
Gilgamesh
Gilgamesh
Oh totally, remember how the increase in jokes about slavery caused more plantation owners to get more slaves? 
#27
Charlie Don't Surf
Charlie Don't Surf
[citation needed]Oh totally, remember how the increase in jokes about slavery caused more plantation owners to get more slaves?
#28
phil
For the record, I don't actually think there is anything that just cannot be joked about. Most of the time though, topics like the ones listed are only mentioned as a type of shock value to a joke that wasn't funny to start with.
phil
I think it's just also a harder topic to tell a joke about without it being completely tasteless and or a completely fucked up thing to say.That would be news to all the slaves out there.
Ed: I guess what I'm realizing with all of this is that we don't avoid rape jokes because rape is immoral, we avoid rape jokes to avoid the risk of social embarrassment due to sayin it to a rape victim. That's kind of fucked up.
For the record, I don't actually think there is anything that just cannot be joked about. Most of the time though, topics like the ones listed are only mentioned as a type of shock value to a joke that wasn't funny to start with.
#30
Bowielee
Bowielee
#31
Gilgamesh
Gilgamesh
Yeah, those links explain how it belittles it but in no means creates more rape/slavery/anythingelse. Sorry.
#32
Bowielee
What I know, though, I only study social psychology.
Slavery is a strawman in this case. It was completely abolished by force, and wasn't based on interpersonal decisions.
Bowielee
Yes, it does. By treating something that is abhorrent as a joke, it creates passive acceptance. Add to that the fact that we have a historical bias of blaming women for their own rape, treating the subject as a joke minimizes the social impact, therefore the stigmatization of said act.Yeah, those links explain how it belittles it but in no means creates more rape/slavery/anythingelse. Sorry.
What I know, though, I only study social psychology.
Slavery is a strawman in this case. It was completely abolished by force, and wasn't based on interpersonal decisions.
#33
Charlie Don't Surf
Charlie Don't Surf
bowielee beat me to it
also now I want to change my name back to "FineFreshFierce"
also now I want to change my name back to "FineFreshFierce"
#34
Gilgamesh
Nice throwing in the fact that you study psychology. You aren't the only one who's had learnin.
Gilgamesh
Except we've been joking about rape for years and it's only become more of a focal point, gained more strength in laws and punishment, and taken much more seriously in the passing years instead of the secret people covered up in the 40s-60s. So it seems to go against your point all together.Yes, it does. By treating something that is abhorrent as a joke, it creates passive acceptance. Add to that the fact that we have a historical bias of blaming women for their own rape, treating the subject as a joke minimizes the social impact, therefore the stigmatization of said act.
What I know, though, I only study social psychology.
Slavery is a strawman in this case. It was completely abolished by force, and wasn't based on interpersonal decisions.
Nice throwing in the fact that you study psychology. You aren't the only one who's had learnin.
#35
blotsfan
blotsfan
Gil, I think your blind mockery of charlie makes you look as outrageous as his blatant trolling (though I don't think he really was this time).
#36
Bowielee
A better equivalency to your misguided slavery analogy would be acceptance of racism through permeation of racist jokes.[DOUBLEPOST=1364242954][/DOUBLEPOST]Also, my field of study is directly relevant to the conversation.
Bowielee
Every assertion you make is baseless other than the fact that there are more laws nowadays. That is a direct consequence of raising awareness of rape culture (via things like the article that I linked), bringing it out into the open.Except we've been joking about rape for years and it's only become more of a focal point, gained more strength in laws and punishment, and taken much more seriously in the passing years instead of the secret people covered up in the 40s-60s. So it seems to go against your point all together.
Nice throwing in the fact that you study psychology. You aren't the only one who's had learnin.
A better equivalency to your misguided slavery analogy would be acceptance of racism through permeation of racist jokes.[DOUBLEPOST=1364242954][/DOUBLEPOST]Also, my field of study is directly relevant to the conversation.
#37
Gilgamesh
Gilgamesh
Direct consequence of raising awareness of rape culture. Thank you.Every assertion you make is baseless other than the fact that there are more laws nowadays. That is a direct consequence of raising awareness of rape culture (via things like the article that I linked), bringing it out into the open.
If a student of anything walked into any place of it's relevant study, they'd be laughed clean out of the room by those who have the study and the experience. They'll also tell you that experience will often times trump and even in other situations, completely negate the study the student may have thought to be 100% factual. Since we're just throwing things out there.Also, my field of study is directly relevant to the conversation.
#38
Bowielee
Bowielee
Awesome, thanks for dismissing both my intelligence and my training.Direct consequence of raising awareness of rape culture. Thank you.
If a student of anything walked into any place of it's relevant study, they'd be laughed clean out of the room by those who have the study and the experience. They'll also tell you that experience will often times trump and even in other situations, completely negate the study the student may have thought to be 100% factual. Since we're just throwing things out there.
#39
Charlie Don't Surf
Charlie Don't Surf
Um. Anecdotal evidence doesn't trump any study. I used to think you were just dumb-trolling me back, but now it's becoming more apparent that you might not understand any sort of research ever?If a student of anything walked into any place of it's relevant study, they'd be laughed clean out of the room by those who have the study and the experience. They'll also tell you that experience will often times trump and even in other situations, completely negate the study the student may have thought to be 100% factual. .
#40
strawman
First, even if that were true, it'd be irrelevant.
Second, it's not true. In every industry I've spent time in, interested students are treated with a great deal of respect and while professionals may debate with them to discover what they know and whether their passion really lies in the subject, they know that the student is the future of their field, and should already know many things the professional does not. There may be individuals within an industry that prefer to hate students, for whatever reason, and push them down, but they are clearly in the minority.
This is my experience, and I am unprepared to show a study which confirms this.
Back on topic, rape jokes are like cussing. Swearing doesn't provide any useful information to a conversation that can't be made using non swear words, and likewise the good and/or funny rape jokes don't require rape, they are merely another joke tossed on the framework that rape provides, and they can be transposed into other jokes. Rape jokes that are truly and fundamentally only about rape have no worth or value in our society.
strawman
I don't see how this is relevant to the discussion. He posted a bit of academic research. You've dismissed it as irrelevant to your specific point. He's indicated that it suggests a likely outcome, but admits that it doesn't actually study your exact point. You go on to suggest that if he, as a "student" were to show up someplace where "professionals" work, he'd be laughed out of the office.If a student of anything walked into any place of it's relevant study, they'd be laughed clean out of the room by those who have the study and the experience. They'll also tell you that experience will often times trump and even in other situations, completely negate the study the student may have thought to be 100% factual. Since we're just throwing things out there.
First, even if that were true, it'd be irrelevant.
Second, it's not true. In every industry I've spent time in, interested students are treated with a great deal of respect and while professionals may debate with them to discover what they know and whether their passion really lies in the subject, they know that the student is the future of their field, and should already know many things the professional does not. There may be individuals within an industry that prefer to hate students, for whatever reason, and push them down, but they are clearly in the minority.
This is my experience, and I am unprepared to show a study which confirms this.
Back on topic, rape jokes are like cussing. Swearing doesn't provide any useful information to a conversation that can't be made using non swear words, and likewise the good and/or funny rape jokes don't require rape, they are merely another joke tossed on the framework that rape provides, and they can be transposed into other jokes. Rape jokes that are truly and fundamentally only about rape have no worth or value in our society.
#41
Gilgamesh
Oh and I specfically addressed that the facts presented were not on the topic in question, which simply stated that it belittles the action in the eyes of the general public but my argument was that it does not increase the action in any way. So yeah, you're the one not following along.
Gilgamesh
Pot calling the kettle black much? You've been slammed with evidence/facts for years dismissing your claims and your usual response is either to disappear from the topic or type -nah- so how about that?Um. Anecdotal evidence doesn't trump any study. I used to think you were just dumb-trolling me back, but now it's becoming more apparent that you might not understand any sort of research ever?
Oh and I specfically addressed that the facts presented were not on the topic in question, which simply stated that it belittles the action in the eyes of the general public but my argument was that it does not increase the action in any way. So yeah, you're the one not following along.
I did neither. I was simply stating that the comment was unneeded and could be dismissed as such if used as a stepping ground over the other person speaking.Awesome, thanks for dismissing both my intelligence and my training.
#42
Charlie Don't Surf
rewrite "Yippie Kay Yay, Motherfucker" without a cuss word or losing any of the strength
or the entirety of In The Loop / The Thick of It
Charlie Don't Surf
walk it back, cussin' is fucking hilarious.Back on topic, rape jokes are like cussing. Swearing doesn't provide any useful information to a conversation that can't be made using non swear words,.
rewrite "Yippie Kay Yay, Motherfucker" without a cuss word or losing any of the strength
or the entirety of In The Loop / The Thick of It
#43
Ravenpoe
Ravenpoe
Yippie kay yay, nonconsensual motherfucker.walk it back, cussin' is fucking hilarious.
rewrite "Yippie Kay Yay, Motherfucker" without a cuss word or losing any of the strength
or the entirety of In The Loop / The Thick of It
#44
blotsfan
Fuck Fudge. I shouldn't have rated that funny.
I fail the thread.
blotsfan
I fail the thread.
#45
GasBandit
GasBandit
That joke wasn't about strength, it was about underpinning the class difference between crass New York street cop John McLaine, and the erudite and sophisticated criminal terrorist Hans Gruber (who can't even repeat the line back correctly later because of how awkward it feels coming from him).rewrite "Yippie Kay Yay, Motherfucker" without a cuss word or losing any of the strength
#46
Charlie Don't Surf
Charlie Don't Surf
I agree with you! I meant strength of the joke, which is based in McClane's dirty gritty don't-give-a-fuck cop.That joke wasn't about strength, it was about underpinning the class difference between crass New York street cop John McLaine, and the erudite and sophisticated criminal terrorist Hans Gruber (who can't even repeat the line back correctly later because of how awkward it feels coming from him).
#47
Bowielee
http://psp.sagepub.com/content/32/3/286.short
For the record, here's a study that directly addresses the point I was making about social norms via minimisation.
I'll just leave it at that. If you don't accept peer reviewed studies, I don't know what you'll accept.
Bowielee
Pot calling the kettle black much? You've been slammed with evidence/facts for years dismissing your claims and your usual response is either to disappear from the topic or type -nah- so how about that?
Oh and I specfically addressed that the facts presented were not on the topic in question, which simply stated that it belittles the action in the eyes of the general public but my argument was that it does not increase the action in any way. So yeah, you're the one not following along.
I did neither. I was simply stating that the comment was unneeded and could be dismissed as such if used as a stepping ground over the other person speaking.
- Gerd Bohner,
- Frank Siebler,
- and Jürgen Schmelcher
http://psp.sagepub.com/content/32/3/286.short
For the record, here's a study that directly addresses the point I was making about social norms via minimisation.
I'll just leave it at that. If you don't accept peer reviewed studies, I don't know what you'll accept.
#48
Charlie Don't Surf
Charlie Don't Surf
maybe a list of posts ironically marked funny and upvoted from reddit?I'll just leave it at that. If you don't accept peer reviewed studies, I don't know what you'll accept.
#49
strawman
But it's actually a terrible example, because the whole point of his phrase was to directly insult Gruber. He wasn't communicating information, he was calling him names. The lowest form of verbal debate is name calling. Might as well be back on the playground. Swearing as name calling makes sense - if you accept name calling as a reasonable response to a situation.
strawman
Right. It was showing that McClane was mentally incapable of expressing himself without swearing. Gruber only turned toward swearing in mockery, and as he lost control of the situation, and therefore himself.I agree with you! I meant strength of the joke, which is based in McClane's dirty gritty don't-give-a-fuck cop.
But it's actually a terrible example, because the whole point of his phrase was to directly insult Gruber. He wasn't communicating information, he was calling him names. The lowest form of verbal debate is name calling. Might as well be back on the playground. Swearing as name calling makes sense - if you accept name calling as a reasonable response to a situation.
#50
Bowielee
Bowielee
I don't need or want your help, Charlie.maybe a list of posts ironically marked funny and upvoted from reddit?
#51
strawman
Mommy... is our forum going to be ok?
[DOUBLEPOST=1364247103][/DOUBLEPOST]( 
)
strawman
Mommy... is our forum going to be ok?
[DOUBLEPOST=1364247103][/DOUBLEPOST]( )
#52
Charlie Don't Surf
Charlie Don't Surf
at least one good thing has come of this thread, I can hearby stop my world wide search for the most boring man aliveRight. It was showing that McClane was mentally incapable of expressing himself without swearing. Gruber only turned toward swearing in mockery, and as he lost control of the situation, and therefore himself.
But it's actually a terrible example, because the whole point of his phrase was to directly insult Gruber. He wasn't communicating information, he was calling him names. The lowest form of verbal debate is name calling. Might as well be back on the playground. Swearing as name calling makes sense - if you accept name calling as a reasonable response to a situation.
#53
Ravenpoe
But cursing fucking rocks.
Ravenpoe
I've always pictured Stienman as Donny Osmond in my mind. Cool in his own clean cut, family oriented sort of way.at least one good thing has come of this thread, I can hearby stop my world wide search for the most boring man alive
But cursing fucking rocks.
#54
strawman
strawman
Charlie, you seriously need better hobbies.I can hearby stop my world wide search for the most boring man alive
#55
Charlie Don't Surf
Charlie Don't Surf
FYI I spun this off into another thread since this is slightly a serious deal/idea thread and I've shit it up already
https://www.halforums.com/threads/cussin.29156/
https://www.halforums.com/threads/cussin.29156/
#56
ElJuski
ElJuski
RE: rape jokes,
Nothing's offensive if it isn't funny. Problem is, most people on the internet--or rape jokes, period--make lame jokes, period. Raunch for the sake of effect is juvenile and lazy, but a true maestro can spin that shit. Same goes for cursing, but fuck posting in that other thread.
Nothing's offensive if it isn't funny. Problem is, most people on the internet--or rape jokes, period--make lame jokes, period. Raunch for the sake of effect is juvenile and lazy, but a true maestro can spin that shit. Same goes for cursing, but fuck posting in that other thread.
#57
Charlie Don't Surf
Charlie Don't Surf
*lip quivers, tear rolling down cheek*RE: rape jokes,
Nothing's offensive if it isn't funny. Problem is, most people on the internet--or rape jokes, period--make lame jokes, period. Raunch for the sake of effect is juvenile and lazy, but a true maestro can spin that shit. Same goes for cursing, but fuck posting in that other thread.
#58
Zappit
Zappit
Look at the Steubenville kids. So many of them thought it was HI-larious that a girl was being raped. Just great comedy. They were (still are) morally deficient punks that did not understand the severity of what they did and what they witnessed.
For whatever reason, rape and sexual abuse is often defended by attacking the victim, claiming he/she was asking for it. That doesn't happen with robbery or murder. Those are universally accepted as morally wrong. But it really isn't that way for sex crimes yet; there's still an ongoing battle to get a bunch of knuckle-draggers to realize that such behavior is wrong.
That's my feeling on it. We can joke about other crimes because we accept as an entire global community that those things are wrong, but the community won't attach the same label to sex crimes. It's uncomfortable for many people to make those jokes because there might be some bonehead that thinks it's funny because he thinks it's acceptable.
For whatever reason, rape and sexual abuse is often defended by attacking the victim, claiming he/she was asking for it. That doesn't happen with robbery or murder. Those are universally accepted as morally wrong. But it really isn't that way for sex crimes yet; there's still an ongoing battle to get a bunch of knuckle-draggers to realize that such behavior is wrong.
That's my feeling on it. We can joke about other crimes because we accept as an entire global community that those things are wrong, but the community won't attach the same label to sex crimes. It's uncomfortable for many people to make those jokes because there might be some bonehead that thinks it's funny because he thinks it's acceptable.
#59
Necronic
Slavery is still prevalent in the world. Slavery ISN'T GONE. It's just out of sight.
Necronic
Ok, I feel like I've had to repeat this too many times.Slavery is a strawman in this case. It was completely abolished by force, and wasn't based on interpersonal decisions.
Slavery is still prevalent in the world. Slavery ISN'T GONE. It's just out of sight.
#60
Gilgamesh
Very well
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/18/AR2006061800610.html
Rape has declined drastically in the past 40years. You know what's been on the rise? Rape being taken less seriously and being minimalized in the public's view. So again, noone ever watched a stand-up act, hearing a rape joke and decided, oh you know what? Rape is cool now, I'm gonna go do it because 40years ago I couldn't.
You can talk theories and theoretical studies all day, but stats and experience will always be the final word.
(I guess I should make clear that obviously rape jokes are not tied into directly the decline of rape, but my larger point is that rape has been minimalized over the past 50 years, yet it sees a steady decline for many reasons. The conjecture that minimalizing something leading to it's growth is just not a factual statement but a pyschological theory that makes sense on paper but not in practice)
Gilgamesh
Social Norms and the Likelihood of Raping: Perceived Rape Myth Acceptance of Others Affects Men's Rape Proclivity Pers Soc Psychol Bull March 2006 32: 286-297, doi:10.1177/0146167205280912
- Gerd Bohner,
- Frank Siebler,
- and Jürgen Schmelcher
http://psp.sagepub.com/content/32/3/286.short
For the record, here's a study that directly addresses the point I was making about social norms via minimisation.
I'll just leave it at that. If you don't accept peer reviewed studies, I don't know what you'll accept.
Very well
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/18/AR2006061800610.html
Rape has declined drastically in the past 40years. You know what's been on the rise? Rape being taken less seriously and being minimalized in the public's view. So again, noone ever watched a stand-up act, hearing a rape joke and decided, oh you know what? Rape is cool now, I'm gonna go do it because 40years ago I couldn't.
You can talk theories and theoretical studies all day, but stats and experience will always be the final word.
(I guess I should make clear that obviously rape jokes are not tied into directly the decline of rape, but my larger point is that rape has been minimalized over the past 50 years, yet it sees a steady decline for many reasons. The conjecture that minimalizing something leading to it's growth is just not a factual statement but a pyschological theory that makes sense on paper but not in practice)
#61
PatrThom
Rape is portrayed as funny when a person purporting to be the pinnacle of the pecking order gets pounded, a sort of, "Ha-haah, you finally get what was coming to you!" vibe.
Rape is portrayed as not funny when the act is done to "remind" someone how low they are on the totem pole, or to degrade and/or terrify the victim.
--Patrick
PatrThom
I see rape as more of an involuntary violation than torture. Rape has always been about pecking order (as far as I can tell) and as such the people getting raped are getting "demoted" from their current place in the social hierarchy. I'm sure there are people who rape a victim because they genuinely want to have sex with that person, were turned down, and then forged ahead anyway, but I'm not sure that doesn't end up being my first point again. It's not so much that I-am-going-to-have-sex-with-you as it is that I-am-going-to-have-sex-with-you-and-you-will-be-powerless-to-stop-me.But it's not nearly as scarring as rape, which, as far as I can tell, is a form of torture.
Rape is portrayed as funny when a person purporting to be the pinnacle of the pecking order gets pounded, a sort of, "Ha-haah, you finally get what was coming to you!" vibe.
Rape is portrayed as not funny when the act is done to "remind" someone how low they are on the totem pole, or to degrade and/or terrify the victim.
--Patrick
#62
Frank
Frank
Some of those statistics seem to be based on narrowing the definition of rape, the FBI's especially.
#63
Bowielee
Your entire point revolves around the completely unfounded belief that as rape jokes have increased, rape instances have gone down. Your assertion that rape jokes have increased is completely unsupported. If anything, I'd probably say the opposite is true.
Bowielee
You're drawing a causal conclusion exclusive from corollary evidence. That's the opposite of how science works. Corollary evidence is used to form hypotheses which are then tested using experimentation. The article I linked was an experimental study, not a purely theoretical study.Very well
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/18/AR2006061800610.html
Rape has declined drastically in the past 40years. You know what's been on the rise? Rape being taken less seriously and being minimalized in the public's view. So again, noone ever watched a stand-up act, hearing a rape joke and decided, oh you know what? Rape is cool now, I'm gonna go do it because 40years ago I couldn't.
You can talk theories and theoretical studies all day, but stats and experience will always be the final word.
(I guess I should make clear that obviously rape jokes are not tied into directly the decline of rape, but my larger point is that rape has been minimalized over the past 50 years, yet it sees a steady decline for many reasons. The conjecture that minimalizing something leading to it's growth is just not a factual statement but a pyschological theory that makes sense on paper but not in practice)
Your entire point revolves around the completely unfounded belief that as rape jokes have increased, rape instances have gone down. Your assertion that rape jokes have increased is completely unsupported. If anything, I'd probably say the opposite is true.
#64
Gilgamesh
Gilgamesh
I believe you missed the entire paragraph in parenthesis.You're drawing a causal conclusion exclusive from corollary evidence. That's the opposite of how science works. Corollary evidence is used to form hypotheses which are then tested using experimentation. The article I linked was an experimental study, not a purely theoretical study.
Your entire point revolves around the completely unfounded belief that as rape jokes have increased, rape instances have gone down. Your assertion that rape jokes have increased is completely unsupported. If anything, I'd probably say the opposite is true.
#65
Bowielee
Bowielee
Rape was even more minimized in the past, so your point is beyond absurd.I believe you missed the entire paragraph in parenthesis.
#66
Gilgamesh
Gilgamesh
How can it have been minimized if it was hidden from view almost completely? It was a very serious issue, so serious it couldn't even be allowed to be heard most of the time. I don't see the absurdity. It was something that wasn't even spoken by nearly any victim decades ago. Now it's out in the open, and even joked about.Rape was even more minimized in the past, so your point is beyond absurd.
#67
Bowielee
Bowielee
Pretending something doesn't exist is pretty much the most extreme form of minimalisation.
#68
Gilgamesh
Gilgamesh
I simply disagree with that. They would treat it as if it were nothing, vs something you couldn't and would be allowed to speak about because of the severity.Pretending something doesn't exist is pretty much the most extreme form of minimalisation.
#69
Bowielee
Bowielee
If you believe that not acknowledging that something is happening is the same as it not happening, there's nowhere we're going to be able to go with this conversation.
#70
Gilgamesh
Gilgamesh
That's not what I wrote at all: I said they hid it because it was too severe to acknowledge in it's time BECAUSE it wasn't something minimal as you claim it was. It was hid because of it's severity not because it was simply ignored.If you believe that not acknowledging that something is happening is the same as it not happening, there's nowhere we're going to be able to go with this conversation.
#71
Charlie Don't Surf
Charlie Don't Surf
I've never been more villified in being right about everything than I am now, reading gilgamesh use words
#72
Bowielee
Bowielee
You're not grasping the key concept, then.
#73
Gilgamesh
Gilgamesh
It could not possibly make me happier to know you think that. You keep being hilarious.I've never been more villified in being right about everything than I am now, reading gilgamesh use words