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I hung out with one of my friends today and he showed me what he was playing. Some latest installment of Jap Crap that bored me to tears 30 minutes. I listened to him, a 30 something year old man, excitedly talk about the next Final Fantasy XIIII-whatever-2 terribgame that Square is wiping its ass with to sell to these rapidly diminishing but loyal fan base that for some sadistic reason proverbially leans over and let Square fuck them squarely in the ass.

Am I the only one who has had his share of JRPGs? I mean... they aren't even JRPGs anymore. It's hallway quest with teens with big hair styles waving huge swords, wands or guns with infinity ammo while wearing a skirt.

I just can't take it anymore. RPGs are supposed to be about roleplay, about CHOICES. In most of their games, you have no choices, you grind and follow the path to the next boss like good Japanese boys.

The worst part, he REFUSES to play Skyrim. Why? It's too dark fantasy. What the fuck. How could you not want to play Skyrim but would rather play a shit game like The Last Remnant?

I don't say all JRPGs are Jap Crap, some turn out pretty well, despite how some choices in Catherine are cannon, it's was a refreshing change of pace. I also liked Valkyria Chronicles or the Persona series or even Valkyrie Profile comes to mind. But even those have definite flaws that turn me off.

I played Fallout 3. I played Mass Effect. I played Dragon Age 1. And now I just played Skyrim.

I tasted filet mignon, roast beef ain't going to cut it anymore.

I'm in total agreement. Final Fantasy games haven't been relevant to me in over a decade. Somewhere along the line style became more important than substance. And I can't even stand the "style." I don't see the appeal of most modern JRPGs.

Like you said, some are good. Most are crap these days.

Jay said:

RPGs are supposed to be about roleplay, about CHOICES.

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I would contend RPGs do not necessarily have to do with choices, but rather they're about telling a story. They're an opportunity for players to put themselves in the shoes of the protagonist of the story, and experience the narrative through a more personal and visceral perspective.

As for the rest of your post, c'mon man, tastes are subjective. I hated Deus Ex the first time I played it, while everyone around me ranted and raved about how it's the best game evar.

Now, I'm not saying JRPGs are always good. But you're saying they're horrible when, in fact, it seems more like they're just not your cup of tea.

Put another way, while you're scornful towards your friend for enjoying roast beef while you can savor filet mignon, your friend is pitying you for only being able to eat a small section of the tenderloin.

I wouldn't bunch Valkyria Chrincles in with JRPGs in any way shape or form. It's a turn based strategy game, not an RPG. Just because it has anime characters doesn't make it a JRPG any more than it would make Guilty Gear X a JRPG.

Final Fantasy 6 remains one of my favorite games of all time. I even replayed it recently, and had just as much fun as before.

I tried to play FFXIII, but found it so incredibly boring and uninspired that I sold it after two days.

Now, I've played Mass Effect 1 and 2 both to completion at least three times. Played through all of Dragon Age twice (and once again to make me forget about DA2), and now TOR consumes pretty much all of my life, which has way more RPG in it than any previous MMORPG I've ever played.

I really enjoy certain types of jRPG, but square has fallen from my radar. The last squenix game that I really liked was The World Ends With You (which is super awesome, by the way) and I think they were only a publisher.

Final Fantasy has pretty much stopped being an RPG and become a slightly interactive movie. After 12 when they came up with the gambit system, they took a large chunk of the party control away and in 13 they just plain removed it entirely.

Final Fantasy died when they kept going too far "future". Even FFX had it's redeeming qualities. The peak of the FF series was definitely when it mixed Old Fantasy (Swords/Magic) with Steampunk/Ancient Tech.

The moment they went "futuristic" it was all down hill. (FFVIII was most definitely an offender. It felt like a JRPG but definitely not a FF game. FFIX redeemed the series one final time though)

I loved 9, I really wish they would come out with a remastered version with up-rezzed textures and some anti-aliasing.

The reason why JRPGs haven't evolved is because the Japanese developers have always focused on Japan as the primary market and the rest of the world as a secondary one... and because Japan has been in an economic recession for many years. This has scared Japanese game developers, which has unfortunately encouraged them to appeal to the most base and juvenile demographic in order to ensure the game makes money. Pantsu, the sexual exploitation of underage girls, and the simplest of plots are the result of this.

To put it simple, Japanese games haven't evolved because they are making enough money as they are... in Japan.

This is actually a fundamental problem in Japanese business practice: The tendency to find one thing that works and then run that into the ground, refusing to innovate. It's generally the result of the incestuous corporate culture that is prevalent in Japan. Thankfully, this is slowly dying out and many young entrepreneurs are forging out on their own instead of becoming salarymen.

However, the West is doing the exact same shit with FPS games, so you could also say it's just a problem with the games industry as a whole... a sign of it becoming more corporate and less indie.

Ravenpoe said:

I really enjoy certain types of jRPG, but square has fallen from my radar. The last squenix game that I really liked was The World Ends With You (which is super awesome, by the way) and I think they were only a publisher.

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Nope, Tetsuya Nomura helped write the story and did all the character designs, so it's definitely a Square Enix baby. Jupiter did most of the programming though and they were definitely the ones behind the incredible combat system. He also wants to do a sequel, but it's unlikely to happen till after the PS3 Kingdom Hearts game (which is Nomura's next project). It's one of the reasons Neko (from TWEWY) is making an appearance in Kingdom Hearts 3DS: to renew interest in him as a character.

I thought that was him in the KH 3D trailer.

Also, I wouldn't say that JRPGs haven't evolved, at least on the FF front. I think they've just evolved into something I'm no longer interested in.

Valkyria Chronicles is a turn-based strategy game. Jay might have been Valkyrie Profile.

The last traditional RPG I enjoyed was Radiant Historia, which decided to be as traditional as possible, and act like it was a SNES game.

I'm still on the last stretch of Persona 3, but I haven't touched it in months. I really should finish it, but as Jay put it, I have Skyrim to play. I don't feel like grinding up and down that tower right now, even though I want to see what happens. I don't know if you'd want to drop strategy RPGs in there--I will always love Final Fantasy Tactics with all my heart, and if I had more time right now, I'd be waist-deep in Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together. But those aren't the games Jay's talking about.

As for traditional Final Fantasy, I tried 12. My wife says it has a great story, but I hated the combat too much to get far enough to see that. I played a LOT of Final Fantasy XIII. I was driven to see what was going to happen between two characters. There were a couple of dramatic moments, but then the characters lost all their personality at a certain point and I couldn't be bothered to keep going. Notice how I'm not talking about the gameplay? It's as Bowielee said. These aren't about being games anymore; they're about Square wishing they'd made more theatrical releases after The Spirits Within. Advent Children wasn't enough--everything has to be their movie now.

Incidentally, I do enjoy the Dissidia games, which perfectly ape Advent Children in style, hollowness, and fan service. I just wish you could search for an online opponent via your PSP. Guess that'd be too Nintendo for Square to do.

I would love to see a first party nintendo RPG, yeah I am nintendo fanboy, but it would be cool to see them do something outside their comfort zone.

Bones said:

I would love to see a first party nintendo RPG, yeah I am nintendo fanboy, but it would be cool to see them do something outside their comfort zone.

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They have.
It's called Paper Mario, and it's awesome, you should check it out.

oh yeah, i forgot about paper mario, I own all of the titles.

My biggest problem with Square-Enix's RPGs is that they keep not releasing Front Mission games over here. Seriously, in a series of 11 games, they've ported a total of 4. They do a lousy job of promoting them over here, which is too bad. A turn-based strategy RPG with giant robots? Yes please!



Now I'm imagining a Transformers SRPG in the style of Front Mission 4, and it is awesome in my head.

Bones said:

I would love to see a first party nintendo RPG, yeah I am nintendo fanboy, but it would be cool to see them do something outside their comfort zone.

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I'd love to see a true sequel to Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars. Geno needs to make a comeback.

/epic sideshow bob rant

You know, these days just about every game offers RPG elements of some sort, heck even FPS now eagerly vomit out experience points to encourage more replay value. I strongly feel that in the last few years the RPG genre has evolved and the best thing to happen to RPGs since Baldur's Gate has recently came out... Skyrim. But JRPGs? What have they accomplished in the last decade? Jack squat. To me, it seems quite obvious that the Japanese style of RPG has lost favor with western gamers where former "blockbusters" like Final Fantasy struggle to remain relevant in the era of Skyrim.

It's clear as day that JRPGS have lost a lot of ground in the last decade and many gamers shun them automatically since it's... the same old crap. If they want to reclaim some ground, they're going to need to take some pages out of Demon's Souls' textbook and bring back the dark dungeon-grinding epics of old. Hard fantasy is very popular in the western world. Lord of the Rings, Swords and Magic, Game of Thrones. That's where the fuck it's at and frankly, a magic little girl whose stuffed animal companion turns into a sword doesn't seem very appealing, especially for one who gets laid regularly.

Seriously though, JRPGS have some sort of weird fetish for watching unrealistic teenagers or children save the world AND ALWAYS THE FUCKEN WORLD. Japanese developers are seemingly unaware that most teenagers are too busy exploring their bodies to even get their homework done let alone save the world and the fact that the main protagonists have shit for reaction to things from having their range of reactions to things go from blissfully gay to emo within seconds is NOT NORMAL. Need I remind you the laugh scene with Titus and Luna in FFX? That was painful to watch. Even more when someone else is in the room with you.

Now, I didn't say the western media isn't doing this as well. There's plenty of epic stories where kids are discovering their destiny and setting off on a quest to destroy the ancient evil. The thing is that these stories at least paint the kids as confused adolescents, often in need of an older hand to guide them. Luke Skywalker had Obi-Wan Kenobi, Harry Potter had that Dumbledorf or whatever. Heck, we even got posters here who write those type of books. They feel human. They feel flawed.

Yet JRPG casts seem to be comprised entirely of high school freshmen and when play these games and I hate it.. I'm not 12 anymore. This game feels fucken retarded. What am I doing? How does this girl of 15, who somehow happens to wear thigh high stockings and 5 inch heels is able to "save the world" and not be able to dress appropriately or not talking like a twat?

This is where I close my eyes and I think of naked middle-aged Japanese men going, "Kinatai...oooh" and rubbing their tiny peckers as the cutscenes play out.

I'm sorry but I'll pick on Final Fantasy some more, since they've been shit as Tress mentioned for the last decade (if not more). I always manage to play a few hours of it (borrowed from same friend when he's done with the game) and promptly proceed to wipe the tears of my raped childhood and try to remember the good ol' days.

For example, FFX... the game's entire cast tops out at the age of what.... nineteen? And I'm sure that happens in all their games with maybe the occasional adult here or there. I can't hardly believe that I'm the only one thinking this given that the average age of gamers is around 35 years old and JRPGs seem entirely marketed towards the Twilight crowd, encouraging the ridiculous "youth = awesome" myth that really doesn't appeal to an audience suffering from male pattern baldness. It's time for some more age-appropriate heroes IMO, if not... realistic ones.

And I'm sorry Blamv3, JRPG's are simply an RPG with just a J in front of it. We all know what J stands for, Japanese. We do forget what RPG stands for. ROLE PLAYING GAME.

This means that I want to role play your game and put myself in that character. I've done it with a smile on my face where I was the Dovahkin, I did it with my Shepard(s), I did it with my Dwarf Noble in Dragon Age (even Human Noble). I make choices and these choices matter. I get to choose an option and something happens and the storyline changes, even if it changes slightly. JRPGS rarely have this choice.

Let's be honest, is there a SINGLE real role playing choice you take in Final Fantasy? Can I tell the bad guy, Hey... you're right. I want to serve you... or what's in it for me? No...no... let's help the kids automatically like good Japanese boys." JRPGs are simply a training manual for Japanese children.

Oh.... and someone mentioned cutscenes... thank you SO MUCH.

JRPGs have made me HATE cutscenes.

HATE THEM.

This complaint is definitely pointed squarely at Final Fantasy again....a series which seems to blow the majority of its budget on ridiculous action cutscenes which are utterly incomprehensible the majority of the time. I can't help but wonder if the time and money they spent animating these needless skits might've been better spent on making the game not suck a dick.

There was a time when awesome CG cinemas were an actual selling point for games (ex : Diablo, Starcraft). Heck, we've now gotten to the point where even in-game graphics look better than cutscenes... I don't knwo about you but I just don't want to watch "Lightning" look mad as usual with nothing important to say for 10 minutes every half an hour with awkward physical motions and acting and mediocre voice acting or having the 14 year old attention whore giggle and laugh in the scene. Always a fucken Lolly in their games... always a fucken Lolly. But hey.... Lightning sure looks fuckable though. The Japanese middle aged men agree. So those cutscenes stay to torment the fuck out of me.

Here's the first lesson of Modern Game Design 101.

If you're unable to advance your plot without a twenty-minute cutscene, please stop making video games. Players today expect to be involved with the events of the game and being unable to interact with story sequences completely breaks any sense of immersion.

This breaks the concept of what an RPG is.

Japan really needs to take a look at immersive Western RPGs games like Skyrim or Fallout. Don't just show the player something awesome, let them actually take part in it. Make their actions change the world.

Do you remember how entire scenes would play out in front of you in Western games and you had a choice to make and then you'd make a decision and the game totally went with it and made you felt involved? This meant more than "reload last save, grind more to beat boss".

Honestly put, JRPGs feel like the early 90ies with prettier graphics. We start the quest, we save our game, grind, buy armor/weapons (since our enemies we kill don't give shit most of the time, only in JRPGs of course) and got our quest hook from "the old man". These days though we've been spoiled by Western RPGs offering lush fully-realized villages almost more fun to explore than the dungeons themselves. There many characters build upon the game's plot with their own small snippets of unique dialogue, each tavern and guildhall offering various side-quests and story hooks. I spent an ENTIRE DAY looting and talking and interacting with every NPC in Whiterun. What do you get in Fur-ville? 6 different NPC skin models repeating the same 1-2 lines, in some games, then force you to play a TERRIBLE CARD GAME.

Games like Skyrim are one step away from my dream game. A world that runs independently without you. A Mount & Blade with more options and better graphics would suck my life out.

And lastly, let's talk about hallway quest and you know what the fuck I'm talking about. I played FF 13 last year for a few hours. I cried. I laughed. I seethed.

I loved their maps where it was literally described as "A CRAZY BATTLEGROUND" and you simply ran 200 yards in a direct line through enemy troops. No immersive world, options to take... nope... only the "long hallway towards the boss or next 20 minute cutscene".

This is not a role playing game.

It simply is not.

If you think it is, you need to take your hands off this keyboard and think before you reply, my response to you will not be kind.

Back in the day, Dungeons & Dragons was the first role-playing game and essentially provided the template for what the RPG genre was originally all about... letting the players build the story. Letting them craft their own unique characters and role-playing them in whatever fashion they chose. The problem was that early computers were obviously unable to offer the constantly diverging plotlines of pen & paper RPGs. Many of these JRPG games barely deserve the RPG label as when your characters' every action within the plot is pre-determined, there's really not any role-playing taking place.

The moral dilemmas of Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic are an excellent example, players able to embrace either the light or dark side of the force depending on their actions, opening up relationships and different quests accordingly. Also allowing players to break from the storyline and explore the world their leisure is a goddamned necessity. As Ravenbeard pointed out, SWTOR has sucked my life for 3 weeks.

It looks to me that western developers seem to understand how much fun it is to explore a virtual world and the runaway success of games like Minecraft proves that even stumbling across a simplistic lego cave is a goddamn thrill. Letting players take charge of discovering new towns and dungeons creates the sense of adventure RPGs should strive for, something much more fun that simply riding the rails towards the next predetermined area.

Heck, in Final Fantasy 12? they implemented a "macro system" that allows the game to control your battle for you in battle. What the fuck am I playing this for? The cutscenes? The hell?

/end rant

There goes an hour of my life.

Jay said:

Need I remind you the laugh scene with Titus and Luna in FFX? That was painful to watch. Even more when someone else is in the room with you.

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1.) That scene was intentionally made painful to watch to demonstrate just how awkward it was to be in Yuna's position, where you basically had to be nice and polite and strong, whatever your feelings actually where.
2.) I still want to shank every asshole involved in that scene, from voice actors to director. You could have done this in a less annoying way.
3.)Blitzball. Really? REALLY?

Jay said:

Yet JRPG casts seem to be comprised entirely of high school freshmen and when play these games and I hate it.. I'm not 12 anymore. This game feels fucken retarded. What am I doing? How does this girl of 15, who somehow happens to wear thigh high stockings and 5 inch heels is able to "save the world" and not be able to dress appropriately or not talking like a twat?

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The only games where this has EVER worked are the Persona series, mainly because it's explicitly set in the real world (so costumes/body armor would be suspicious and not fit the art style) and because the characters are all little psychological messes like any teenager would be in that part of their life. They are so fucked up that they've actually made unraveling their problems a game mechanic. It also helps that they make them deal with real life bullshit like school, tests, and after school jobs.

[

Jay said:

This is where I close my eyes and I think of naked middle-aged Japanese men going, "Kinatai...oooh" and rubbing their tiny peckers as the cutscenes play out.

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Sadly, the game demographic in Japan is actually more skewed towards younger players... so what this actually means is that Japanese game developers are marketing child porn to children, not adults. That somehow makes it seem worse.

Regardless, those assholes consistently buy their wanking material, so Japan is gonna keep making it. Developers are too scared of going out of business to not cater to their known demographic.

Jay said:

For example, FFX... the game's entire cast tops out at the age of what.... nineteen? And I'm sure that happens in all their games with maybe the occasional adult here or there.

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Actually, FFX wasn't terrible about this. Wakka and Lulu were in their 20's, Kimarhi was in his 30's, and Auron was at least in his 40's. I think you mean FF8. That cast tops out at 19 with Quistis, excluding Edea (who you only get for like 20-30 minutes).

Jay said:

Let's be honest, is there a SINGLE real role playing choice you take in Final Fantasy? Can I tell the bad guy, Hey... you're right. I want to serve you... or what's in it for me? No...no... let's help the kids automatically like good Japanese boys." JRPGs are simply a training manual for Japanese children.

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I find it ironic that the very FIRST JRPG, Dragon Quest, actually gave you that option. It was like "Do you wanna fight the Dragon Lord? Or do you want to serve him?". Sure, it punished you for picking the serve option by killing you, but at least you were given the choice.

Jay said:

Japan really needs to take a look at immersive Western RPGs games like Skyrim or Fallout. Don't just show the player something awesome, let them actually take part in it. Make their actions change the world.

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The thing is that these games are doing really well in Japan now too. Fallout 3 and New Vegas sold fairly decently, while Skyrim is the first Western developed game to ever win a perfect score from Famitsu. It also sold remarkably well in it's launch week, beating out several Japanese developed games. I don't know if it's because Japanese tastes are starting to change (the success of Demons Souls and Dark Souls hints at this) or if Bethesda is just really good at marketing their games overseas... I know for Fallout 3 they did some awesome anime style art to promote the game, as well as an entire 8-bit Dragon Quest style game involving the map of DC.

The Japanese industry knows it has to change. Even old school greats like Kenji Inafune believe it. Hell, Kenji believed it so much, he was forced out of the company he'd worked at for almost 30 years because of it. It's just that there is still that toxic corporate culture that is holding everyone back. No one wants to upset the bosses (because the bosses will toss your ass out fast), so the only studios doing anything about it are the small ones and the new ones.

Oooo, you kind of bring up a sticking point in Jay's whole argument.

Demon's Souls and Dark Souls ARE japanese developed games, which makes them... JRPGs.

The only argument I have with what you're saying, Jay, is that I do think it's okay for some games to have a traditional, linear narrative. I don't always want a game that has me take a quest from one person and find the correspondent on the map via marker. Assassin's Creed sequels, for example--they did not need the mountains of extra shit that Ubisoft padded them with. The story and general gameplay is good enough not to need all the pointless side content. And then there are games like Half-Life, Uncharted, etc, which are just fine as straightforward narrative.

Except, none of those games I mentioned are RPGs.

Then you have FFXIII. It has a linear narrative, as you'd expect in a JRPG, but then it has a linear everything. No choices on where to go, pretty much no choices even within those locations, and it even takes a while to get choices on stats progression. Even before that, it takes three hours to get to the point where you can develop character abilities/stats at all. Meaning every battle before that is a complete waste of time.

I think there is still a place for the linear RPG, with wiggle room. Persona--lots of stuff to do besides grinding. I enjoy how those games work; they manage a decent balance. Radiant Historia was fun because you did get to mess around a lot, even time traveling back to old cutscenes to do things differently, but there was still a straightforward direction.

I feel Dragon Age: Origins had the best balance of a game I've played between choices and narrative. Maybe that would change to KOTOR, except I've really not gotten to play it thanks to Skyrim. It's not even installed thanks to a reformat I had to do a bit ago. I really need to make time for that; maybe once I've grown tired of Skyrim for a bit.
Added at: 17:24

Bowielee said:

Oooo, you kind of bring up a sticking point in Jay's whole argument.

Demon's Souls and Dark Souls ARE japanese developed games, which makes them... JRPGs.

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Yeah, Atlus--same people as the Persona games. I think Jay's argument is less against JRPGs as a whole and more against Square-Enix.

Indeed, I mentioned Demon Souls and I own the game.

Jay said:

/epic sideshow bob rant

Seriously though, JRPGS have some sort of weird fetish for watching unrealistic teenagers or children save the world AND ALWAYS THE FUCKEN WORLD. Japanese developers are seemingly unaware that most teenagers are too busy exploring their bodies to even get their homework done let alone save the world and the fact that the main protagonists have shit for reaction to things from having their range of reactions to things go from blissfully gay to emo within seconds is NOT NORMAL. Need I remind you the laugh scene with Titus and Luna in FFX? That was painful to watch. Even more when someone else is in the room with you.

Yet JRPG casts seem to be comprised entirely of high school freshmen and when play these games and I hate it.. I'm not 12 anymore. This game feels fucken retarded. What am I doing? How does this girl of 15, who somehow happens to wear thigh high stockings and 5 inch heels is able to "save the world" and not be able to dress appropriately or not talking like a twat?

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Realistic portrayals of teens means the world gets fucked. So help me - There's a comic in that. I gotta do that. It's like when Kate Beaton did the "Mystery Solving Teens". I gotta make that comic - teens that just don't give a fuck charged with saving the world, and just how bad that goes. I give you credit Jay - you have inspired me.

I actually liked FXIII. I treated it as an interactive novel instead of a choose your own adventure book and I was quite fine. I disagree the JRPGS are simply RPGs with a "J" in front of them. I think it's apples and oranges, and I player western and JRPGs for completely different reasons.

Terrik said:

I actually liked FXIII. I treated it as an interactive novel instead of a choose your own adventure book and I was quite fine. I disagree the JRPGS are simply RPGs with a "J" in front of them. I think it's apples and oranges, and I player western and JRPGs for completely different reasons.

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I think FFXIII was trash that I enjoyed on its level while it was being an interactive novel, and for that purpose, but there is a point in the game where the characters have their personalities amputated, and oddly it's the point where you're actually allowed to roam around a bit.

Meh. Probably less than 1% of Japanese titles are exported ready-to-play in the US. I'm sure there's some crazy innovation going on in there.

I vote you move there for two years, and immerse yourself, then report back before making grand statements about the suckiness of a particular genre of video games from a country you can't understand, nevermind have visited.

stienman said:

Meh. Probably less than 1% of Japanese titles are exported ready-to-play in the US. I'm sure there's some crazy innovation going on in there.

I vote you move there for two years, and immerse yourself, then report back before making grand statements about the suckiness of a particular genre of video games from a country you can't understand, nevermind have visited.

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I'm sorry, are you new to the internet Mr. StienMan? If the internet enacted your extreme standards of "understanding" and "humble thought" there would be nothing here but lolcats and porn. And maybe lolcat porn. Ew.

Espy said:

And maybe lolcat porn. Ew.

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If you speak it, it becomes true.

Terrik said:

If you speak it, it becomes true.

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stienman said:

Meh. Probably less than 1% of Japanese titles are exported ready-to-play in the US. I'm sure there's some crazy innovation going on in there.

I vote you move there for two years, and immerse yourself, then report back before making grand statements about the suckiness of a particular genre of video games from a country you can't understand, nevermind have visited.

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I can't speak for the JRPGs, but Japan certainly has its share of weird shit games that never reach foreign shores.

Apparently Xenoblade was one of the only JRPGs released this gen (for Wii) to actually feel like a current gen JRPG and not just gussied up garbage. Too bad Nintendo refused to release it in North America, waited for its angry internet fanbase to pirate its European version in order to give it a SUPER limited release (only to Gamespot) that won't likely do well where they can be smug about their original decision to not release it.

Frankie Williamson said:

Apparently Xenoblade was one of the only JRPGs released this gen (for Wii) to actually feel like a current gen JRPG and not just gussied up garbage. Too bad Nintendo refused to release it in North America, waited for the it's angry internet fanbase to pirate it's European version in order to give it a SUPER limited release (only to Gamespot) that won't likely do well where they can be smug about their original decision to release it.

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I may as well get it so I can say I got some good use out of the Wii since summer 2009.

Jay said:

The moral dilemmas of Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic are an excellent example, players able to embrace either the light or dark side of the force depending on their actions, opening up relationships and different quests accordingly. Also allowing players to break from the storyline and explore the world their leisure is a goddamned necessity. As Ravenbeard pointed out, SWTOR has sucked my life for 3 weeks.

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I honestly wish they could grow beyond the binary good/evil choices that are the entire basis of most WRPGs. You know what game did choice right? Witcher 2. That games choices were fucking choices. Both options had their pros and cons beyond the regular good and evil and both (or more) options generally had long lasting ramifications to your game (in fact, one huge choice cuts off an entire chapter of the game).

Frankie Williamson said:

I honestly wish they could grow beyond the binary good/evil choices that are the entire basis of most WRPGs. You know what game did choice right? Witcher 2. That games choices were fucking choices. Both options had their pros and cons beyond the regular good and evil and both (or more) options generally had long lasting ramifications to your game (in fact, one huge choice cuts off an entire chapter of the game).

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Have you played TOR? My highest level characer is only level 30, but even as someone going for a full 'darkside' playthrough, I've been very impressed with the option of choice in the game. You don't have to kick puppies to be darkside. You can even be merciful at times, and doing so opened up some really neat future interactions that ending up playing a role in the story.

It's still the binary light/dark thing. It's a God damn Bioware game, since the BG games, it's all they know.

I want binary choices in a Star Wars game. There's the light side and the dark side, the only middle ground would be with mercenaries and bounty hunters because the force doesn't apply to them.

I love a good linear game and since most RPG games "choices" don't mean shit for the most part I guess I'm more concerned with the story than if I'm allowed to make some dumb decision that has next to no impact.

Remember when games had multiple endings? That's hard to pull off in most MMOs, pretty sure. Skyrim is pretty much the blueprint for doing "decisions" right though. There are many decisions over the course of the game that determine the overall story, even though the final battle will always be against the same dude. Most of the problems with Skyrim aren't authorship, but rather technical gripes. The UI, the bugs, the glitches.

But they have evolved... just into something you dislike... TRUTH.

@Li3n said:

But they have evolved... just into something you dislike... TRUTH.

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That sounds familiar somehow...

What exactly is the difference between a JRPG and a WRPG?

JRPGs are made in Japan, generally have very little character customization and are usually very linear.

WRPG are made in ze west, often have very heavy character customization and can be a little more to much more open ended.

Adammon said:

What exactly is the difference between a JRPG and a WRPG?

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It's not exact, but there are demonstrated tendencies.
JRPGS tend to have -
turn-based combat
bright colors/flashing lights
girlyboy people with huge eyes
Linear storylines/scripted worlds
Impossible/exaggerated artistry in costumes/weapons/hair
Character archetypes/conflicts rooted in japanese cultural concepts
Deep plots with 9 or more huge twists that rend your brain and make you play through multiple times to understand wtf is going on
specifically pre-created characters you take control of

WRPGS tend to have -
real time/action oriented combat
grittier/edgier/darker overtones
beefmonster people with squinty eyes
flexible storylines/open worlds
somewhat more realistic models at the possible expense of artistry
character archetypes/conflicts rooted in (duh) western cultural concepts
a plot as deep as most sandboxes... but you can make your own story in a sandbox.
build-your-own-character characters.

And so forth. Some games do mix and match, but those are general tendencies.

Merci for la explication.

I would submit that JRPGs in the West met their popularity zenith over the Final Fantasy 4-5-6-7-8 period and have been dying (literally) to recreate that peak. Remembering that Japanese culture is inherently conservative, I don't think we should be terrible surprised they're not evolving at a faster pace.

Parasite Eve was pretty badass, though.

Parasite Eve was Japan's attempt to appeal to American gamers, hence the everything but the kitchen sink gameplay approach.

Frankie Williamson said:

Parasite Eve was Japan's attempt to appeal to American gamers, hence the everything but the kitchen sink gameplay approach.

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Actually, Parasite Eve mainly served as a testbed for the graphics and CGI engine for Final Fantasy 8. They were unsure how people would react to the (at the time) very real looking people and decided that it might be wise to do a little "open market testing" to see if they were in the Uncanny Valley or not. Parasite Eve passed on that front, so they kept the engine instead of overhauling all the art.

AshburnerX said:

Actually, Parasite Eve mainly served as a testbed for the graphics and CGI engine for Final Fantasy 8. They were unsure how people would react to the (at the time) very real looking people and decided that it might be wise to do a little "open market testing" to see if they were in the Uncanny Valley or not. Parasite Eve passed on that front, so they kept the engine instead of overhauling all the art.

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I find it funny that Parasite Eve was the superior game.

Quotemander Prime said:

I find it funny that Parasite Eve was the superior game.

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That's partly because they ran out of time and money. Originally FF8 was going to be two games: Squall's story and Laguna's story. But because they needed money very badly at the time (and weren't entirely sure how the fans would react to have a direct sequel to a FF game) they nixed the two games idea, instead combining the story into one game... and cutting huge chunks of Laguna's story out. Pretty much all of the plot, pacing, and characterization issues come from the fact that they cut out like 40% of the story.

The gameplay problems? That was just shitty design.

AshburnerX said:

Actually, Parasite Eve mainly served as a testbed for the graphics and CGI engine for Final Fantasy 8. They were unsure how people would react to the (at the time) very real looking people and decided that it might be wise to do a little "open market testing" to see if they were in the Uncanny Valley or not. Parasite Eve passed on that front, so they kept the engine instead of overhauling all the art.

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I still feel what I said was pretty right, they basically tossed every game system they had developed in the 32 bit era into, ATB, the Vagrant storyish movement, all the upgrading, etc.
Added at: 18:06

AshburnerX said:

That's partly because they ran out of time and money. Originally FF8 was going to be two games: Squall's story and Laguna's story. But because they needed money very badly at the time (and weren't entirely sure how the fans would react to have a direct sequel to a FF game) they nixed the two games idea, instead combining the story into one game... and cutting huge chunks of Laguna's story out. Pretty much all of the plot, pacing, and characterization issues come from the fact that they cut out like 40% of the story.

The gameplay problems? That was just shitty design.

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That seems to be pretty normal for Final Fantasy games. The vast gutting of parts of the game.

Frankie Williamson said:

I still feel what I said was pretty right, they basically tossed every game system they had developed in the 32 bit era into, ATB, the Vagrant storyish movement, all the upgrading, etc.

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Parasite Eve came out in 1998. Vagrant Story wasn't out till 2000 and it's movement isn't AT ALL like it is in Parasite Eve.

Frankie Williamson said:

It's still the binary light/dark thing. It's a God damn Bioware game, since the BG games, it's all they know.

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Meh, most of the time the non light/dark choices are just being an asshole for yourself or just being one for no reason...

@Li3n said:

Meh, most of the time the non light/dark choices are just being an asshole for yourself or just being one for no reason...

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I've actually had some weird ones pop up in the Bounty Hunter arc. For instance, killing one of your targets is a Light Side option. Leaving another to die a rather grisly death in space (instead of letting him out of his cell to fight) is also a lightside option. Asking for money is occasionally a Light Side option as well.