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I have been married for a long time, and I feel lately like I want out. There just seems to be nothing for me in my relationship except the kids. And they still exist outside of the relationship. I get no attention from my wife whatsoever. To be clear, she's not bad to me, or mean to me. There are no real fights or arguments. But, hell, I'd take that over nothing, which is what we seem to have. We just seem to be roommates who share kids. I get no expression of love from her at all. She does things for me, but I don't want a servant. I'd rather have someone who never lifted a finger for me, but expressed love. I cannot tell you the last time she really kissed me. Years, maybe. I can barely recall a time she touched me voluntarily. Even during increasingly rare love-making, her arms are out to the side, and never around me. And then, it never feels like she really wants to do it. I've stopped approaching her about it, because frankly, she sounds like it's a concession, and that feels really uncomfortable to me.

To head off some suggestions, I have talked to her about this. In soft terms at first, and later in no uncertain terms. Many times now, and nothing ever changes. My wife has a tendency to simply say yes during a discussion, and there's never any, well, discussion. There's me talking and her just saying yes. She tells me everything is fine to her. I've offered to leave, and that's the only time she's ever reacted, just to get me to stay. Honestly, it feels more like my leaving would be bad because it would damage her standing more than it would bother her personally.

I'm at the age where I'm still young, but old enough to feel life creeping on. And lately I just don't want to be trapped forever like this in what feels like a loveless marriage. I've tried so many things. I've tried gushing attention on her. One of her complaints when I do finally get her to say anything is that she's busy, so I've tried doing everything, and she will make more work for herself. If I clean the whole house, she'll go scrub something that hasn't been touched in years, then complain that she has no time. And if I call it a complaint, she swears it's "just a statement of fact, not a complaint", which has to be the most irritating sentence ever uttered, because what else is the definition of a complaint? On top of all that, the busy thing just directly and in no uncertain terms tells me exactly where I sit on the totem pole. "I can't because I have to do this." Okay, well you just told me that that is more important than me.

I lack the courage to ask for a way out myself, and I don't think she'd let me go easily. She's the queen of pragmatism, and if nothing else, I'm a wallet. I hate to talk that way, but I cannot for the life of me think what she's getting out of this if she has held me beyond arm's length for years.

Sorry for the wall of text.

Having kids complicates matters, because they won't see your divorce is as the dissolution of an already dead relationship, they'll see it as a fragmentation of their stable home life. And there's a very good chance you will be financially destroyed in the divorce - alimony and child support aren't cheap.

Have you suggested going to a marriage counselor and get some of these thoughts out in a neutral environment? Regarding the sex, there might be medical reasons for her lack of interest.

Marriage is a partnership - if at least one member isn't willing to put the work into maintaining it, it will fail.

So my advice is to take steps to try and salvage your marriage together - but if she goes on acting like everything's fine and nothing needs to change, divorce may wind up being the better option in the long term. Child support, weekend visits, and being single again are a marked sight better than letting it fester to the point of violence.

Man...No words. It sounds like you're really trying whatever you can think of. I wish you and your wife the best.

Null's advice is probably wiser, or at least less-selfish, than mine; but from your post it sounds like you've tried everything short of counseling already, and she doesn't sound like she cares enough about the relationship to go to counseling. You could try a couple of counseling sessions on your own, for some possible support in having different words and phrases to use to approach the subject with your wife; but honestly, it sounds like it may be time to put a divorce lawyer on retainer, or at least start looking around for good ones.

Anonymous said:

...I cannot for the life of me think what she's getting out of this...

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The question for you is: what are you getting out of this since you are choosing to stay?

In case your answer involves your children and the effects of divorce, staying in a marriage which lacks intimacy and warmth is going to effect your kids, too. Your relationship with your wife is setting an example for their relationship ideals later in life (I don't know how old your kids are, so I am assuming they are school age rather than infants or young adults).

You could get a mistress.

What? Don't give me that look, that's what people do.

Ravenpoe said:

You could get a mistress.

What? Don't give me that look, that's what people do.

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You joke but the thought has often crossed my mind.

Not the same anonymous as the OP but this could be my thread as well. I don't have an answer for you or I'd have an answer for me as well.

An affair would make you feel better in the meantime, but will just give her more leverage during the inevitable divorce.

You pretty much describe my previous marriage. Which is why it is my previous one.

It had pretty much devolved into me being the bill-payer, and that was my only real connection to my spouse by the end. We had slowed to having sex three times a year or less. At the very end, we went like 8 months without, because I got tired of feeling like I was imposing on her because she would only begrudgingly oblige when we did do the deed. She developed a ton of interests that were solitary and didn't include me, and when we tried to work on "together time", what she really wanted to do was just have me sit in when she was enjoying her hobbies, rather than us doing something different and mutually enjoyable.

I put up with it for years. And like you, we had talked about it. Numerous times. For years.

We had a child together, and I had concerns about how it would affect him. But in the end, the dissolution was pretty much good for everyone. Sure, she lost the gravy train, so she couldn't use her income to fly all over the country several times a year to conventions, but now she has the freedom to do what she wants without having to worry about my involvement, I had the freedom to meet my current wife (and we're still going strong after a couple years dating followed by our 5th wedding anniversary coming up in a couple weeks). And it was good for our son--once I got custody and she realized that he wouldn't always be around, she stopped taking him for granted and is very involved with him.

Sometimes, splitting up can be for the best.

If you're unhappy and she's refusing to work with you - then maybe you should get out of it before you wake up 15 years from now wishing you had the chance to get out before you were too late.

I mean, honestly, there weren't any kids involved in my first marriage (for which I am eternally thankful), and we had some issues outside of the ones you've mentioned (including the involvement of lovers), and all it did was wind up being an incredibly resentful relationship. The two of us never spoke after she went home to her parents and they came to get her belongings out of our rental house. She didn't show up to the divorce hearing (which was good for her, considering some of the claims she was attempting to make on social media), and I never looked back.

Ravenpoe said:

You could get a mistress.

What? Don't give me that look, that's what people do.

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Just ask her permission before taking a mistress!

Anonymous said:

She does things for me, but I don't want a servant. I'd rather have someone who never lifted a finger for me, but expressed love.

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I can understand some of your frustration, can't say that any marriage that has lasted for years doesn't have it, but I think that we need to focus a little on this statement. This is just throwing stuff against the wall, but could it apply?

Could her doing things for you be her way of trying to find that way that best works for her to express herself to you? Could your reaction, which seems to be a little dismissive (and just could be limits of typing), be driving a little wedge deeper?

My wife and I went though a patch kind of like this, some frustration, some not sure of where we were going, some just being afraid of what lies ahead. We've been married for over 26 years now, and closer than we were 10 years back. It's not easy, people are different, and sometimes the same experiences affect each partner in a differing ways. Counseling is a good idea, a third party to talk to, together and separately.

How old are these kids? I'll admit, it's never easy when they're so young.

The first year was difficult but this last year is another level of difficult. Heck, most of the time I'm burnt out of 6 AM to 8 PM, sex rarely is even on my mind these days.

Unless it's during the weekends, if I get to sleep till 7ish I wake up with an oak tree in my pants.

I feel for you, have you guys considered the rapy?

I wish I had something helpful to say in this thread. If I were in your shoes, I think I'd insist on trying counseling, and go from there. If it makes progress, then great... if not at least it'll be 3rd party corroboration in splitting up.

What @Sparhawk says raises a good point; people have different ways of expressing emotions/feelings/love, and don't always necessarily give the same way they want to receive - I tend to throw money at my girlfriend (no, not literally ), as a way of showing how much I care, but I'd rather she spend time with me than buy me stuff. Some people write poetry, some give gifts, some do little things for each other, some try to make huge sacrifices, some want physical attention (not necessarily referring to sex- I know I find hugs/massages/petting/snuggling to be a huge factor in feeling loved while some people really don't care - though sex can and often is an expression in this vein as well). Perhaps she really does care for you, but there's problems with incompatible ways of showing that love, not knowing how to express yourself, etc. Counseling could certainly help in such a case.
I'm not saying this is the case - in some cases, love can just sort of fade away and leave nothing more than 'roommates with benefits' or 'roommates and a kid and a loan and whatever we have to stay together for'. Such marriages can work just fine - love as a prime reason for marriage is a fairly modern thought, all in all. A mutual fondness, friendship and willingness to work together and make the best of it was pretty much all most people were striving for - and you were often lucky to find it. I know I know quite a few couples like that - especially of the older or more conservative variety, who don't really look at divorce as an option. Divorce can be a way of running from the challenge of making it work... Or a way of salvaging what's left of both of your lives, instead of wasting them together - I definitely can't tell from over here.
While I'm not sure whether or not it's said in jest (I'm tired, sorry), @MindDetective also brings up a point. I do actually know a couple where one partner lost all interest in sex (admittedly, in this case, after a hysterectomy), and she was perfectly OK with her husband going to prostitutes and/or having one night stands - as long as he didn't get too attached to any one in particular, and he still loved her, she didn't care where he got his rocks off - it just eased a burden on her, as she didn't have to do that anymore. Obviously, not everyone would feel or think that way, I don't know your wife/situation.

Sparhawk said:

I can understand some of your frustration, can't say that any marriage that has lasted for years doesn't have it, but I think that we need to focus a little on this statement. This is just throwing stuff against the wall, but could it apply?

Could her doing things for you be her way of trying to find that way that best works for her to express herself to you? Could your reaction, which seems to be a little dismissive (and just could be limits of typing), be driving a little wedge deeper?

My wife and I went though a patch kind of like this, some frustration, some not sure of where we were going, some just being afraid of what lies ahead. We've been married for over 26 years now, and closer than we were 10 years back. It's not easy, people are different, and sometimes the same experiences affect each partner in a differing ways. Counseling is a good idea, a third party to talk to, together and separately.

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I don't dismiss what she does for me. I try to regularly express my gratitude. I definitely recognize that she's expressing herself through these things she does, but it feels more like an expression of obligation than an expression of love. That's hard to convince you of I know, but that's my feeling. I guess the point of bringing it up at all was that I would rather her not feel obligated to do things for me in lieu of emotional expression.

Anonymous said:

I get no expression of love from her at all. ... I'd rather have someone who never lifted a finger for me, but expressed love.

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Anonymous said:

I definitely recognize that she's expressing herself through these things she does, but it feels more like an expression of obligation than an expression of love.

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Just a few thoughts:

Following through on a commitment made in a marriage ceremony years later when the puppy love is gone is most certainly an expression of love.

You can rekindle romance. The fact that you are already together and have each other's attention for a portion of the day every day gives you something to work with. Have dinner together every single day. Use that time to see how she's doing. Don't try to fix anything, just listen and encourage her to talk.

Second, consider "The five love languages" - I haven't read it, but from what I've read about it, and from what you're saying, it seems like the book will have some significant insight into how to reconnect with your partner when you two obviously have different concepts of what constitutes love and expressions of love.

Lastly, she might not be willing to work on your marriage, but there's a lot you can do if you want to.

But you have to want to.

We do have dinner together as a family every day. We have conversations about regular things all the time. I know her life, and she knows mine. But I can do those same things with a friend and a roommate. That's the thing. I don't hate her, and I'm certain she doesn't hate me. But I'm also not interested in spending the rest of my life with a roomie and a pal. That's a huge deal for me. We've been married nearly 20 years, so I know the puppy love is gone. We are well beyond those years. It's not romance I want--it's love.

I know I'm no innocent, and you're only getting my side. But as selfish as this sounds, she's the one who needs to read your second paragraph, not me. I do constantly ask her about her life. She's the one who shows little interest in mine. I come after the kids, after work, after sleep. Then, if there's any time left at all, I get it, and it's usually given visibly begrudgingly. And again, I have mentioned this many times over the years now, and all I ever get is "I'll change it", which bugs me, because I don't want a concession. I want a conversation. Which we never have.

Your situation scares me a lot about marriage. My wife and I have been married for 5 yrs, and I can see other priorities creeping in that put something else ahead of each other. Left unchecked, I could see it ending up the same way. We're both very intentional now so hopefully it was remain good. Marriage is challenging. Two selfish people (all people are selfish) wanting the same thing in different ways is going to cause tension and lead to resentment.

Not to knock you down Anon, but it sounds like you already resent your wife, and that you are letting that cloud your judgement. Love takes different forms and has different temperatures (from boiling passion to just warm). I'd say your wife loves you, but she isn't doing so in a way that makes you feel loved and wanted. That's got to hurt. I don't feel qualified to give you advice since I am only 5 yrs into my marriage. Perhaps you know some older couple (not family) that could be a mentor or at least give you some perspective. It honestly sounds like a normal progression of a relationship when one doesn't intentionally try to show love for their spouse. I'd say there is hope for a turn-around. You are going to have to be that pivot if you are seeing the problem and she doesn't. It will be up to you to help her see the light. I don't know how to do that.

Best of luck. Whatever is done protect those kiddos.

A couple with whom we are friends went through something similar. The wife posted an article on Facebook which she said helped her, but frankly I found it almost disturbing. It was a married professional woman talking about how she just waited it out, and how she tried to redirect it every time her husband brought it up, and eventually he stopped and went back to the way things were. Shudder. That's what you do to kids because you are training them as part of our culture. It's not what you do to an adult. I told my friend that article wasn't about saving a marriage, it was about breaking a horse. The man stopped talking about it because he gave up and conceded that there was nothing he could do. He went back to the way things were--which clearly made him unhappy--because he had no other choice. What amazed me was all the likes and shares this article had. I bring it up, because my wife does use this tactic with our kids, and honestly I think it's why she doesn't talk back to me. She wants me to tucker myself out like a baby. It is so frustrating because so many of the times I try to broach the topic, she literally says nothing back at all. I don't even know what to do with that.

I don't resent her. I'm sorry if I've given that impression. I really don't.

It's so frustrating to hit a brick wall with someone. That's what Jake's family is like, and it's why their relationship isn't great. To have no feedback except, "It will change" or "it doesn't need to change" is very hard to live with long term. Again, I don't know what else to say... just sympathizing. It sounds like you're in a very lonely place right now, and I really hope things get better.

Kati and I have been married now for almost 10 years, and the OP sounds disturbingly similar to discussions we've been having lately thanks to our period of enforced separation*. As the person on the other side of the discussion (except for the money part), I will maintain that my love has not receded, nor have I reason to believe that hers has, either. Any intimacy is constrained (again, we're literally too distant at the moment), and I believe this to be more a matter of lack of confirmation/reassurance than anything else. As time goes on and you become more and more comfortable with another person, it becomes harder to maintain that "more than just a roommate/POSSLQ" feeling, and I have no solid advice for combatting that yet. I'm sure we'll discover something profound within the next 5-10 years, but that's probably not an acceptable timeframe for your situation.

Right now the only advice I have is to be more inviting, to offer to involve her in more of your doings, but as a partner, not a spectator or student. You're not bringing her along as a helper nor as a boss, you're involving her as a teammate. Also, don't underestimate the power of "noncommittal" physical contact as an indicator of a level of acceptance. And by "noncommittal," I mean avoid the "we are touching therefore one of us must want to have sex" mentality. The automatic reaction in public is to apologize for unintentional physical contact of any kind, but physical contact between the two of you (assuming it's not collision-based) should be accepted as normal and usual, and should even be encouraged even if it is not acknowledged.

I hope my point comes across. I was interrupted, like, 80 times while I was typing this, but I tried hard to not screw it up.

--Patrick
*I'm 2500mi away on assignment for work for 4-1/2 months, for those who don't know.

This is semi-random, but one of the things that keeps me from seriously approaching divorce is that I really like my in-laws. In a lot of ways, I'm closer to them than I am to my own parents.

Anonymous said:

This is semi-random, but one of the things that keeps me from seriously approaching divorce is that I really like my in-laws. In a lot of ways, I'm closer to them than I am to my own parents.

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Can you confide in them on this? Enlist their help?

Isn't there a forum-poster that has an open marriage here? That could be something to add some sort of electricity to the marriage.

BananaHands said:

Isn't there a forum-poster that has an open marriage here? That could be something to add some sort of electricity to the marriage.

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Yes.
It's not me, though.

--Patrick

BananaHands said:

Isn't there a forum-poster that has an open marriage here? That could be something to add some sort of electricity to the marriage.

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That's not a variable I would add to an already troubled relationship.

Tinwhistler said:

That's not a variable I would add to an already troubled relationship.

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Yes, that is something that requires a strong foundation already, as well as complete open, honesty, and trust.

BananaHands said:

Isn't there a forum-poster that has an open marriage here? That could be something to add some sort of electricity to the marriage.

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Generally speaking, if the marriage is already troubled, that's not going to fix it, it's just going to make the breakup even messier. You need a stable, trusting relationship to even think about other parties in on, and even then, it's very tricky. Like, I'm not part of the relationship between the woman I'm seeing and her husband. Every so often she just takes a day, we meet up, hang out, go somewhere to eat, screw, and she goes back home.

There was a member of the Krypton Krew way back when who joined a 4-way marriage with her husband - ie she, her husband, the other wife, and the other husband, were a foursome, since they were all "polyamorous". Lasted 2 years before basically the parties split up with swapped partners.

I know quite a few very happy long term poly relationships. Not suggesting that here or anything.

fade said:

I know quite a few very happy long term poly relationships. Not suggesting that here or anything.

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Yeah, it's not for everyone. I only mentioned it because the people in question thought it would fix things and instead it made the problems more apparent.

Another thing I forgot to mention is that my wife has taken to going to bed really early. Like 8:30-9pm. Often before my oldest kid goes to bed. A lot of nights, I don't even have the chance to talk to her because she's out by the time we could talk.

It's starting to sound like she might be clinically depressed - lack of interest in things, excessive sleeping, etc. Has she seen a medical professional about that?

I don't mean to give the impression that she has a lack of interest in things--just a lack of interest in me. I don't think it's depression, but she has been to the doctor about fatigue. She was diagnosed as hypothyroid, and she has medication. But it doesn't seem to have done much. I only brought it up because she seems to have a convenient attack whenever we do schedule a "date night" (because it has never, ever been spontaneous) or whenever I ask to talk about this topic.

An attack of hypothyroidism? How does that work exactly?

Those are my words, not hers.

Okay, but I still don't get it. I've known a lot of people, friends and family, who were diagnosed with an underactive thyroid and they never talked about any type of "attack" other than hot flashes or maybe depression.

Yeah but I just meant conveniently tired. She doesn't call it anything or even call attention to it. That's my addition. I feel like I'm doing her a disservice with some of my descriptions.

Really, I think with a subject like this it can be hard to get the whole of your feelings and thoughts across through the internet. Not that it's a fault in your communications, but the medium itself.

It sounds like you two really need to see a professional about this.

Or just fucking leave, do whatever the fuck you want, it's your life.

There's a limit to how many times people can say, "You need to seek help," and get "Yeah but she does this..." in response.

Look I appreciate the advice, but there's also a limit to how much I am conveying or can convey. I mean, it's equivalent to me saying, "the plane is going down!", and the control tower says, "Bail out!", and then I clarify "Wait, I didn't mean it was crashing, just going downward, which is bad, but not as bad as crashing!"

Anonymous said:

Look I appreciate the advice, but there's also a limit to how much I am conveying or can convey. I mean, it's equivalent to me saying, "the plane is going down!", and the control tower says, "Bail out!", and then I clarify "Wait, I didn't mean it was crashing, just going downward, which is bad, but not as bad as crashing!"

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Is this something that can be averted? If so, work to avert it. If not, better to bail.

--Patrick

You should just tell her everything that you've said in this thread. Worst case - you two get divorced. Best case? She works with you to fix things.

Anonymous said:

Look I appreciate the advice, but there's also a limit to how much I am conveying or can convey. I mean, it's equivalent to me saying, "the plane is going down!", and the control tower says, "Bail out!", and then I clarify "Wait, I didn't mean it was crashing, just going downward, which is bad, but not as bad as crashing!"

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It's more like the tower is telling you there are two options. Either start pulling the plane out of the dive, or jump before it's too late. Time to decide. Either counseling or divorce.

I also think it is easy for us to judge your situation when we only have your perspective of it. No one knows why your wife is acting this way, including you. Has she always been like this, even before you married? Did having children change her? Has something major changed in her life, aside from being diagnosed with hypothyroidism, which could have effected her own quality of life or thought process? Was the dynamic between you always like this, but you only recently decided it needed to change? There are a lot of factors that we don't know, and frankly are none of our business, that can affect your marital relationship.
Would counseling help? Probably since it seems you two are having trouble communicating effectively. She may have some kind of issue she needs to work through in individual counseling, too.
Could something like a couples' retreat help? Possibly depending on your attitudes going into the event.
Have you talked to any of your friends who know you both, provided you can confide in that person? That could also give you perspective.

It doesn't have to be A or B. But if you are unhappy then you need to take steps toward finding out what exactly is making you unhappy and figuring out how to fix it. Your wife can't fix your unhappiness. No one on this board can. And, yes, I know you aren't asking anyone to fix it for you. The point is, YOU are in control of your life and well-being. You have to be your own advocate. You have to direct the change you need in order to find what is missing in your life.

BananaHands said:

You should just tell her everything that you've said in this thread. Worst case - you two get divorced. Best case? She works with you to fix things.

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Well like I said in the OP, I have. Many, many times.

So what are you going to do now?

I'm a bit hesitant to come back in here, since I will always defend my wife. I may be unhappy but she's still my wife, and I haven't told the whole story.

But nothing has changed. I'm think I'm lonelier married than I ever was single. I come home often, and there's no one there. She apologizes later, but I'm always in the dark about what's going on. And if I pursue it beyond the apology, it's my fault for not asking constantly what her plans are. That still just seems so backwards to me, and it certainly wouldn't fly the other way around. I am afraid to start yet another conversation about it though, because things are peaceful. As per usual, she sees nothing wrong. To hear her tell it, we have a rosy, perfect marriage. It really feels like gaslighting because it makes me wonder if I'm the problem, and maybe I'm expecting too much out of a 20 year marriage. Or maybe it's not gaslighting. Maybe I shouldn't expect anything beyond a roommate. I don't hate her. Not in the least. She's a great friend, but I want more out of marriage than a friend and roommate.

So have you figured out who she's sleeping with yet?

And more the point, what are you going to do? Nothing has changed, you say - have you done anything to make a change?

Anonymous said:

I'm a bit hesitant to come back in here, since I will always defend my wife. I may be unhappy but she's still my wife, and I haven't told the whole story.

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Please explain this to me. Are you defending her only because she's "the little woman" or do you really believe she should be defended when you are being made miserable?

But nothing has changed. I'm think I'm lonelier married than I ever was single. I come home often, and there's no one there. She apologizes later, but I'm always in the dark about what's going on. And if I pursue it beyond the apology, it's my fault for not asking constantly what her plans are. That still just seems so backwards to me, and it certainly wouldn't fly the other way around. I am afraid to start yet another conversation about it though, because things are peaceful. As per usual, she sees nothing wrong. To hear her tell it, we have a rosy, perfect marriage. It really feels like gaslighting because it makes me wonder if I'm the problem, and maybe I'm expecting too much out of a 20 year marriage. Or maybe it's not gaslighting. Maybe I shouldn't expect anything beyond a roommate. I don't hate her. Not in the least. She's a great friend, but I want more out of marriage than a friend and roommate.

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Read those bolded lines to yourself. Imagine this was a close friend talking to you. What would you tell him?

WasabiPoptart said:

Please explain this to me. Are you defending her only because she's "the little woman" or do you really believe she should be defended when you are being made miserable?

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I did explain it in the last couple of line. I don't hate her, and I'm trying to keep an open mind that I may be wrong. At absolute worst, she's still my good friend. For example, even the parts you bolded. I know those were my words, but I have to objectively acknowledge that I am being emotional, and being probably unfair in my explanation. So if you all respond to that, I do sometimes feel like I need to explain her side since she's not here.

You aren't really explaining her side, you don't know what her side is, unless she is actually typing for you.

Also, you don't have to hate someone to want a divorce.

Dei said:

Also, you don't have to hate someone to want a divorce.

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This is so true.
Remember, the person you were 20 - 10 - 5 years old isn't the same person you are today. Things change. This goes for the SO as well.
It's a journey for a reason, they'll be ups and down and things and objectives change.
Shit, I'm not even the same person I was 2 years ago.

It sounds like you're in limbo. If she doesn't acknowledge that at least you are struggling in this marriage, I think that speaks volumes. Like Dei said, sometimes it's not about anger or hate or other big emotions. Sometimes it's about feeling nothing or feeling an absence. If the only things she keeps saying is that there isn't a problem and your marriage is fine, then you're not both getting what you want.

It's nice of you to try and be fair and tell things from your wife's side as you understand it. It means you're doing something that she isn't--trying to understand what's going on in your spouse's mind. This sounds like a really unfair and frustrating situation.

Anonymous said:

I don't mean to give the impression that she has a lack of interest in things--just a lack of interest in me. I don't think it's depression, but she has been to the doctor about fatigue. She was diagnosed as hypothyroid, and she has medication. But it doesn't seem to have done much. I only brought it up because she seems to have a convenient attack whenever we do schedule a "date night" (because it has never, ever been spontaneous) or whenever I ask to talk about this topic.

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How long has she been medication? I ask because my wife had thyroid cancer, and had hers removed. Her mood changes and tiredness was difficult to regulate. It literally took two years or so to get the dosage right. Let me tell you that was a rough two years for both of us.

Every time I post here, things seem to get a little better at home. I don't know if it's the catharsis of getting it out there or what. Still terrified of bringing up a discussion again. Last time I did, I got really angry and yelly and I hate that. Especially since it more or less guarantees nothing will happen. I just hate how she just gets into a pattern of acquiescence when I complain. I want a discussion, not what feels like an attempt to shut me down. That sounds like me judging her intent, but I know from 20 years of experience now that "I'll work on it" never actually happens.

It sounds like a fairly toxic relationship. You resent her lack of effort on the relationship and her constant reasons to not be intimate with you, she's fucking someone else and just does enough to shut you up while she lives off you.

So why stay in it?

I genuinely wonder if she just isn't getting it.

--Patrick

I am positive it's not an affair. She has no time for that, and it's not her personality. If I were to attribute anything sexual to it, I'd guess she's at least somewhat a closeted asexual. She's never really shown an attraction to anyone in all the time I've known her.

She never wants to be intimate. She's not home when you get home, and won't tell you where she's been, and makes you feel like it's your fault when you ask. She is totally having an affair.

See again, I've given a false impression. I never said she won't tell me where she's been, she just neglects to tell me she's going somewhere. Plus these trips are almost always with the kids.

I'm going to speak to this as my sexual preferences seem to tend towards your wife's. Have you sat down to talk about your sex life in such a way that it was about her instead of you feeling neglected? It can be extremely stressful to feel like any type of romantic interaction will lead your husband on to think you will be having sex because you wanted to kiss him, and can lead to completely avoiding ANY physical interaction to try to avoid that stress.

Basically what I'm saying is, approach talks of intimacy in such a way to address what her comfort zones are, instead of just saying YOU feel neglected, and YOU have needs. If you think she might be embarrassed about this kind of discussion, ask her to write her thoughts down for you.

I don't know if you guys would be inclined to but I'd seriously recommend going to see therapist.

Jay said:

I don't know if you guys would be inclined to but I'd seriously recommend going to see therapist.

Click to expand...

It has been previously suggested. No dice.

Null said:

She never wants to be intimate. She's not home when you get home, and won't tell you where she's been, and makes you feel like it's your fault when you ask. She is totally having an affair.

Click to expand...

Somewhere in the vicinity of 10% of women suffer from a complete lack of interest in sex. The FDA is even considering a new drug specifically for this population of women, which alters their brain chemistry to increase sex drive. I think total disinterest is energy within the realm of possibility.

I've retyped an answer here a billion times. I don't know how to put this without seeming like a jerk. Of course I've had this conversation. A million times. It and many like it are the point of this thread. There is literally no response from her often. Or the acquiescence. I mean, I don't berate her or make her feel bad about not having a sexual desire. I go along with whatever she wants. It's stressful to know your husband wants you when you don't want him? Yeah, I believe it. It's also stressful to never feel wanted. But I don't pursue it, and give her what she wants here. She has 100% of the control here already. Going to her and asking her what her comfort zones are (which I'll reiterate, I've asked her many times) suggests I'm taking more than she's comfortable with, and that's already in her control. If she's giving up more than she wants to now, well it could possibly be another suggestion that we're incompatible.

But this conversation is a side note anyway. I've made my peace with the sexual aspect of the relationship, and that's a very minor footnote in this thread.

Honestly I wonder why you continue to post here because you rebuff all things that are said. If it's just as a sounding board then continue on, but if you are looking for advice, you aren't going to find it.

I haven't rebuffed what you said at all. I just told you I already tried it, and that the sexual aspect wasn't the main point anyway.

I'm reading back through this thread, and I'm not seeing rebuffing anything other than suggestions that my wife was being a dick or that she was having an affair. I mean, I have noted that I've tried things quite a few times when suggested. I don't know how else to phrase that.

Anonymous said:

I'm reading back through this thread

Click to expand...

I would like to get insight from Kati about this, will post what she has to say once she's had a chance to do the same.

--Patrick

It's fine. I think I came here mostly to see if I was justified in having an issue, or if I was being a callous person. It was difficult for me to specify the parameters of the problem, and clarification was taken as a lack of gratitude, which I did not intend. I will take all advice to heart, regardless of whether I debated it. That's what I do. That's how I work through things.

drawn_inward said:

It has been previously suggested. No dice.

Click to expand...

Can't help then. If it were me, is take a break and consider of its worth it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I've tried talking again, and once again, I got the brush off that nothing is wrong, and that she's perfectly cool with the way things are, and it's all in my head. This in and of itself is odd, because clearly I am not perfectly cool with it. I think she wants me to just shut up.

Anonymous said:

I've tried talking again, and once again, I got the brush off that nothing is wrong, and that she's perfectly cool with the way things are, and it's all in my head. This in and of itself is odd, because clearly I am not perfectly cool with it. I think she wants me to just shut up.

Click to expand...

Sounds like something you should bring up during couples therapy.

Anonymous said:

I've tried talking again, and once again, I got the brush off that nothing is wrong, and that she's perfectly cool with the way things are, and it's all in my head. This in and of itself is odd, because clearly I am not perfectly cool with it. I think she wants me to just shut up.

Click to expand...

Let her know that what is in your head counts. If you express your concerns in terms of how you feel (and not in terms of objective, observable facts) it is harder to dismiss them. Also, ask for her help rather than ask her to change.

Null said:

Sounds like something you should bring up during couples therapy.

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Or a divorce hearing.

Ravenpoe said:

Or a divorce hearing.

Click to expand...

Or one then the other.

Anonymous said:

I've tried talking again, and once again, I got the brush off that nothing is wrong, and that she's perfectly cool with the way things are, and it's all in my head. This in and of itself is odd, because clearly I am not perfectly cool with it. I think she wants me to just shut up.

Click to expand...

Either she is in denial or she may be gaslighting you. I know that term is usually used in conjunction with abuse, but if she is trying to make you believe your concerns and feelings are all in your head then IMO it fits. Right now it sounds like she wants to invalidate your viewpoint. She needs to know that this is not only about her perception of the state of your relationship, but also the way you see them.

This is totally it. Never saw this show, but it sums it up nicely.

Maybe I should just shut up and take it. It's not what I want, and I hate the idea of growing old this way, but I guess it beats things being bad, too.

Anonymous said:

This is totally it. Never saw this show, but it sums it up nicely.

Maybe I should just shut up and take it. It's not what I want, and I hate the idea of growing old this way, but I guess it beats things being bad, too.

Click to expand...

It kinda sounds like things are already bad? But it also sounds like you prefer it that way, as opposed to anything changing.

It's like looking at a frosty glass of lemonade on the far side of a river of lava.

Anonymous said:

This is totally it. Never saw this show, but it sums it up nicely.

Click to expand...

This is what happened to me when I saw Jerry McGuire. When I saw Tidwell's post-TD phone call, I immediately realized I did not love the person I was seeing at the time. It was a blow.

--Patrick

Anonymous said:

This is totally it. Never saw this show, but it sums it up nicely.

Maybe I should just shut up and take it. It's not what I want, and I hate the idea of growing old this way, but I guess it beats things being bad, too.

Click to expand...

Well it's not like you're going to do anything about it anyway.

Have you been married 20 years? It's a hard thing to go rocking a boat even if the course is not true.

The person has wisdom. No, it's not me.

Anonymous said:

Have you been married 20 years? It's a hard thing to go rocking a boat even if the course is not true.

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Yeah, I mean just because you're heading for giant sharp rocks that'll smash the boat to pieces and leave everyone drowning is no reason to change course.

More like driving down a boring road where you see fun things in the distance, but your passenger just wants to keep driving. So you drive because it's easier than turning.

Dave said:

More like driving down a boring road where you see fun things in the distance, but your passenger just wants to keep driving. So you drive because it's easier than turning.

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To me, it sounds like the other person is the driver and OP is the passenger. The driver claims she has a good driving record, so OP continues to let her drive even though he doubts her driving ability. He also thinks if he just stays quiet about her swerving all over the road that some how his motion sickness will disappear on its own.

Why you're thinking this. You're no happy with your conjugal life?

Actually I believe what is being discussed is the Sunk Cost Fallacy.

--Patrick

Joseph_Philander1993 said:

Why you're thinking this. You're no happy with your conjugal life?

Click to expand...

I like this guy already

Well now there's a new wrinkle that concerns me. May or may not be related. I have this sudden loss of libido. I mean it's only been a week, but it's weird. I'm someone who has such an overcharged libido, I've wondered if something was wrong. Now the exact opposite. No desire whatsoever.

Check my NSFW cosplay forum.

It's hard to feel attraction toward someone you resent.

And now that I posted this, I know the reply will be along the lines of you not resenting her. What you've told us says otherwise, but it's up to you to own it or not.

I think this recent development sounds like depression.

--Patrick

Loss of sexual interest is a concern, but remember, don't rock that boat.

When I say loss of libido I mean all libido not loss of attraction to my wife.

Anonymous said:

When I say loss of libido I mean all libido not loss of attraction to my wife.

Click to expand...

PatrThom said:

I think this recent development sounds like depression.

--Patrick

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I wish I could say any of this has gotten better. I got over a lot of the depression, but nothing has improved in the relationship.

Let me clarify so no one has to read back through.

There simply is no connection between me and my wife. I almost never talk to her. She leaves the room when I enter. She literally says nothing back when I ask her questions. For my part, I know I've been emotional about this with her, but only because the only times she ever says anything back is when things finally build to a head. I think back on our younger days, and it almost seems like she was a different person. Now, she is always preoccupied with work and the kids, and never has any time for me. I'm fairly certain she's been pretending to be asleep at night when I come to bed.

The more this goes on--and it's been about 5 years now since this change came over our relationship--the more I think that I just don't want to die like this. In a relationship with no connection. I've asked for help. I've asked for conversations. I've asked for therapy, but she says nothing is really wrong. I don't get it. As for what happened 5 years ago? I moved to a different city for work ahead of them, and was here by myself for about a year. That's it, but I feel like she regrets getting back together at the end of it.

She says (when she says anything) that she doesn't like to talk because I get angry and argue. She's not wrong--I do tend to get upset. I shouldn't, but in my defense, that's because the only time we ever talk is when I get to the boiling point, because she has literally said nothing back to me up until that point. See the problem here? It's self-perpetuating.

I keep trying to respark. I do everything I can to alleviate home life work for her, but she still seems to hide in work. That's the only thing I can think it is. It's some kind of martyr-like shelter. If I do anything, she will go out of her way to find some other task, or hell, ever re-do something I already did. Last week I searched everywhere for a toy street sweeper, and gave it to her as a gift. This was a meaningful thing for us at one point. The first night we spent together (up talking, not sexual you pervs), we walked to the waterfront, and no matter where we turned, the street sweeper was there. We thought it was hilarious at the time, and it became kind of a thing. When I gave her the street sweeper, she acted confused. After I told her the whole story which she was there for, and that we joked about for years, the best I got was an, "Oh yeah. Thanks." That killed me. It really did.

I really don't feel like there's anything left. I wish I had the courage to talk with her about moving on, but I don't even know how to start.

Here's an opening line you can use. "Here are our divorce papers."

To clarify, before this, you should see a lawyer and have divorce papers drawn up.

Anonymous said:

I wish I could say any of this has gotten better. I got over a lot of the depression, but nothing has improved in the relationship.

Let me clarify so no one has to read back through.

There simply is no connection between me and my wife. I almost never talk to her. She leaves the room when I enter. She literally says nothing back when I ask her questions. For my part, I know I've been emotional about this with her, but only because the only times she ever says anything back is when things finally build to a head. I think back on our younger days, and it almost seems like she was a different person. Now, she is always preoccupied with work and the kids, and never has any time for me. I'm fairly certain she's been pretending to be asleep at night when I come to bed.

The more this goes on--and it's been about 5 years now since this change came over our relationship--the more I think that I just don't want to die like this. In a relationship with no connection. I've asked for help. I've asked for conversations. I've asked for therapy, but she says nothing is really wrong. I don't get it. As for what happened 5 years ago? I moved to a different city for work ahead of them, and was here by myself for about a year. That's it, but I feel like she regrets getting back together at the end of it.

She says (when she says anything) that she doesn't like to talk because I get angry and argue. She's not wrong--I do tend to get upset. I shouldn't, but in my defense, that's because the only time we ever talk is when I get to the boiling point, because she has literally said nothing back to me up until that point. See the problem here? It's self-perpetuating.

I keep trying to respark. I do everything I can to alleviate home life work for her, but she still seems to hide in work. That's the only thing I can think it is. It's some kind of martyr-like shelter. If I do anything, she will go out of her way to find some other task, or hell, ever re-do something I already did. Last week I searched everywhere for a toy street sweeper, and gave it to her as a gift. This was a meaningful thing for us at one point. The first night we spent together (up talking, not sexual you pervs), we walked to the waterfront, and no matter where we turned, the street sweeper was there. We thought it was hilarious at the time, and it became kind of a thing. When I gave her the street sweeper, she acted confused. After I told her the whole story which she was there for, and that we joked about for years, the best I got was an, "Oh yeah. Thanks." That killed me. It really did.

I really don't feel like there's anything left. I wish I had the courage to talk with her about moving on, but I don't even know how to start.

Click to expand...

I try to imagine what I would do if I were in your situation. The answer is that I would be depressed, be anxious, be sorrowful... and then I would get a divorce. It sounds like you have done everything in your power to reconnect, but she has to meet you part of the way. I think you have exhausted all options, and though it may be sad, it is time to move on. As for how to start that conversation, don't look for a special way to open it. Be honest and direct.

I'm very sorry to hear this, by the way. It's much easier for me to suggest divorce than it is for you to live through it. But from an outsider point of view, it really is the only option that makes sense.

I don't have real advice, but I know that it takes two people to make a relationship work and it doesn't sound like one is willing to try. I don't think that any path from here is going to be an easy one. If you stay together "for the kids" or convenience you'll be miserable, and your kids will notice (if they haven't already), and if you don't stay together you will likely lose some friends and family and will probably lose some financial stability. Will you gain happiness if you separate/divorce? I don't know. Will you gain any in continuing in the current situation, again I don't know.

TLDR

It takes two to tango, one isn't willing. Stay =! happiness, neither does leaving.

Even though I'd like to talk to her about it, I'm frankly terrified. Partly of her reaction. (Also thank you Gboard for suggesting "boobies" after I typed "her") partly because of the financial aspect and the impact on the kids.

I'm glad you are being treated for depression, and I hope you continue to do so.

Have you started any other therapy? I understand couples therapy probably won't happen, but suggest individual therapy if you can't do couples therapy.

As much as it pains me to say it, you should talk to a lawyer first before even discussing divorce with her. Specifically a family practice divorce lawyer who understands how the legal system works in your area and how they treat fathers. What you say and do from here on out could make it difficult to have the final results you are after. Do note that your mental health will be called into question during such proceedings, so make absolutely certain your doctor agrees that your current plan of management is effective, that you're taking any prescriptions you're currently supposed to be taking, and work hard to avoid any outbursts or seemingly erratic behavior.

If you aren't following your doctors plan, work with you doctor on a plan you can follow that is effective or find a doctor that meets your needs. You don't want this to become a question during any divorce/custody hearings.

Yes. Consult a lawyer.
If what you say is true, then the situation almost sounds like she is trying to get you to file for divorce rather than doing it herself.
One wonders at the motivation behind this choice, assuming the relationship has not merely become "roommates with kids."

--Patrick

I tried to say something. Again. The result is the same. I find it really hard to describe. She doesn't turn me down. She doesn't get angry. It's sort of like she manages to say nothing and shuffle it off. It's like being stuck in tar. I try to push out, but it pulls me back in.

What did your lawyer tell you about getting a divorce ?

Still the same. Always gets better for the holidays, but then right back to the same. The more I think about it, the more I wonder if she's not a bit of a psychopath. Like clinically, not layman terms. Everything is in terms of its practicality with her. Zero emotion. She's a great roomie. I still have no idea how I would even broach the topic of some time apart. That could go two ways. Emotionless "whatever you want". Or since it looks bad on her and messes with her practical plans, it could go very badly.

You should see a therapist. They will be equipped to help you understand objectively what her actions mean about her and you and how to deal with them. They’ll also give you solid advice about how to move forward with confidence knowing that your path is reasonable.

So what did your lawyer tell you about getting a divorce?

Anonymous said:

Even though I'd like to talk to her about it, I'm frankly terrified. Partly of her reaction. (Also thank you Gboard for suggesting "boobies" after I typed "her") partly because of the financial aspect and the impact on the kids.

Click to expand...

Sorry, can I ask about this? Do you think getting a divorce would be hard on the kids, like you and your wife might start fighting or something?

Because..my opinion...don't stay in a bad marriage for the kids (even if it's not what some would consider stereotypically awful) - one of my good friends, his parents are still married and all they do is fight and hate each other, but they don't get divorced because 'the kids', even though the kids are adults now. Wouldn't it be better for them to see each of you in a healthier/happy relationship? Part of why I got divorced is because I see how my parents are; they're actually still in love and I realized I didn't have that.

Anyway, I was just curious. I know there's no easy solution and you're in a pickle. I hope some progress can be made for you! And also, I do agree with Stienman that therapy would be beneficial. It should help you center yourself and give you more direction, and they can probably even help you look at things from every perspective, including your wife's.

LittleKagsin said:

Sorry, can I ask about this? Do you think getting a divorce would be hard on the kids, like you and your wife might start fighting or something?

Because..my opinion...don't stay in a bad marriage for the kids (even if it's not what some would consider stereotypically awful) - one of my good friends, his parents are still married and all they do is fight and hate each other, but they don't get divorced because 'the kids', even though the kids are adults now. Wouldn't it be better for them to see each of you in a healthier/happy relationship? Part of why I got divorced is because I see how my parents are; they're actually still in love and I realized I didn't have that.

Anyway, I was just curious. I know there's no easy solution and you're in a pickle. I hope some progress can be made for you! And also, I do agree with Stienman that therapy would be beneficial. It should help you center yourself and give you more direction, and they can probably even help you look at things from every perspective, including your wife's.

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I'll echo this. I grew up with parents that hated each other. They still hate each other. They're still married, but sleep in separate bedrooms. I don't know how much of this affected me growing up, but I do have a pretty dim view of marriage, so that could be why.

I get that. We don't hate each other. That's why I have such issue with this. If I hated her, there would be no question. But I don't. Rather, the situation is that she doesn't seem to care much for me. But she never says so, never acts like anything is wrong, and simply will not discuss it with me. I wish I had a better way to describe it to you all so that you knew what it was like. I'm lonely in my own marriage even though I sleep next to someone every night. She won't touch me, hasn't kissed me unprovoked in nearly 2 decades, barely talks to me. I constantly try to communicate, but there is no reciprocation. We have a friendship, but that seems to be it. And, no, I'm not talking about physical intimacy. I mean emotional. I mean, physical would be nice, too. She hasn't initiated that since before my oldest was born, and they're 14, about to turn 15. And when I initiate, I'm usually turned down. We're at once a month maybe now. Often with greater than a month between. And if it wasn't for overwhelming natural proclivities, I might not engage at all, because it always feels like she's doing that thing where she's filing her nails and waiting for me to finish.

I hate to say it, but it really sounds, from the outside at least, like you've hit an impasse. You sound like you're extremely unfulfilled, if not downright unhappy, but you have a stable situation that you can manage. It's up to you to decide whether you want to upset your (assumption on my part) perceived stability for a chance at happiness.

Anonymous said:

I get that. We don't hate each other. That's why I have such issue with this. If I hated her, there would be no question. But I don't. Rather, the situation is that she doesn't seem to care much for me. But she never says so, never acts like anything is wrong, and simply will not discuss it with me. I wish I had a better way to describe it to you all so that you knew what it was like. I'm lonely in my own marriage even though I sleep next to someone every night. She won't touch me, hasn't kissed me unprovoked in nearly 2 decades, barely talks to me. I constantly try to communicate, but there is no reciprocation. We have a friendship, but that seems to be it. And, no, I'm not talking about physical intimacy. I mean emotional. I mean, physical would be nice, too. She hasn't initiated that since before my oldest was born, and they're 14, about to turn 15. And when I initiate, I'm usually turned down. We're at once a month maybe now. Often with greater than a month between. And if it wasn't for overwhelming natural proclivities, I might not engage at all, because it always feels like she's doing that thing where she's filing her nails and waiting for me to finish.

Click to expand...

Okay yooooo. This echos my marriage in a lot of ways? And I’m sorry, but: Get. Out. Staying because you’re friends isn’t a good enough reason. Not when you could have a better more fulfilling life on your own or with someone else.

Cause hear me out, I still love Nate in a lot of ways and it was really difficult for me to leave but, damn, this is my one life and the only person that could change my situation is myself. Anytime I brought something up with Nate things didn’t change, so I got out, even though he and I actually still really get along well. We weren’t in a marriage though, we were in a friendship, which makes things weird and confusing, especially for those on the outside looking in. So I get it, I do, to some degree. You don’t have to hate her to get divorced. You don’t have to hate her to be in a bad marriage. You really don’t.

I’m in full support of you leaving. I feel bad and mean, I know I’m not in your situation and only you can decide what is best, but nothing is going to change or happen unless you make it happen. Don’t languish in this relationship.

My life has been flipped on its head and is nearly in complete chaos but I can’t tell you how much happier I am now, even now that I’m facing a lot of uncertainty. I really wish I could help and I’m really sorry you feel so stuck, but I get it. I was there for a couple of years, I can barely imagine how you feel after more than a decade of this.

Honestly, that sounds fucking awful, Anon.

Something I took from therapy and will repeat here: you can be okay with a C grade life, but you're not wrong to want an A grade life instead.

Anonymous said:

I hate to say it, but it really sounds, from the outside at least, like you've hit an impasse. You sound like you're extremely unfulfilled, if not downright unhappy, but you have a stable situation that you can manage. It's up to you to decide whether you want to upset your (assumption on my part) perceived stability for a chance at happiness.

Click to expand...

This is the real problem. We have a 20 year marriage, two kids, a nice house, sterling credit. You know, the American Dream. How do you uproot all of that? Is it right to do so just because I'm unhappy in my marriage? On the one hand, I think, maybe this is as good as it gets. On the other, I think I'd rather be broke and hunting for food with someone who cared about me than safe and dry with someone who does not. You only get one life. There's no reset button. But is it right of me to upset hers? She seems to have no complaint. Is it right of me to upset the kids' lives? I go over this stuff in my head all the time.

Well, it bothers you enough to bitch about it to a bunch of random strangers at irregular intervals, so...

Null said:

Well, it bothers you enough to bitch about it to a bunch of random strangers at irregular intervals, so...

Click to expand...

It turns out that we can't grant divorces! Who knew??

More's the pity. We could liberate this poor stupid fuck from his personal hell and be done with it.

MindDetective said:

It turns out that we can't grant divorces! Who knew??

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Does anyone else remember that guy (I can't remember his user name) who was married to a woman who would lock herself in her room if he had friends over, and thought everyone was stabbing her in the back, and he was making eyes at any female?

I think about that guy a lot.

Like, probably a weird amount.

Y'know, getting a divorce isn't actually a guarantee that the quality of life for the rest of your family is going to decrease. Just using my wife's family as an example, the parents are divorced, sure, but they're still friends or at least friendly to each other. Up until a couple years ago they still celebrated almost all major holidays with each other, including some of the greeting card holidays like Mother's Day and Father's Day. Are you taking some risk of causing some discomfort? Of course. Divorce is very uncomfortable. Even in my utter sham of a first marriage - when I knew that I'd had no intention of marrying this person in the first place, when I knew she'd been cheating on me at every opportunity, when I knew she was only using me for a stable source of income - having it come apart, not being able to fix it or live with it while we worked things out, it sucked. There's a lot of work, a lot of phone calls, and a lot of communicating with all sorts of companies, government entities, the courts, you name it. It takes a lot of dismantling to revert a government recognized "couple" back to two governmentally recognized individuals - and you're opening yourself, your wife, and your kids to the judgment of everyone you interact with along the way; or at least that's how it feels. The reality of it (anecdotally) is a lot more mundane. I seriously doubt that, aside from our families and close friends, anyone that my ex and I interacted with during the process of our divorce, thought anything of it other than how it pertained to their job in that moment, if then.

The mere fact that you're willing to ask these questions:

But is it right of me to upset hers? She seems to have no complaint. Is it right of me to upset the kids' lives?

Click to expand...

Tells me you care about your family. You're not going to stop caring for the person who isn't going to be your wife anymore, or your kids, or even (probably) most of her extended family. Because you're still going to be a family, just one that the government no longer recognizes as a single entity, and one that lives in separate houses. It took a long (and I mean LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG) time for me to understand why my MIL and FIL still hung out and went to all the same holiday things - it's simple, they're still a family. They still even support each other financially from time to time (usually it involves my FIL loaning my BIL some money, with which he pays for something for my MIL, or my MIL loans the money back to my BIL, who uses it to repay his father).

Anonymous said:

This is the real problem. We have a 20 year marriage, two kids, a nice house, sterling credit. You know, the American Dream. How do you uproot all of that? Is it right to do so just because I'm unhappy in my marriage? On the one hand, I think, maybe this is as good as it gets. On the other, I think I'd rather be broke and hunting for food with someone who cared about me than safe and dry with someone who does not. You only get one life. There's no reset button. But is it right of me to upset hers? She seems to have no complaint. Is it right of me to upset the kids' lives? I go over this stuff in my head all the time.

Click to expand...

So on the one hand I'd sacrifice everything and anything for my wife and children.

On the other hand you aren't constrained by my beliefs about children and family.

So speaking from a worldly perspective, "But is it right of me to upset her [life]?... Is it right of me to upset the kids' lives?" is self-sacrifice to a damaging degree.

It tells me your depression really isn't resolved - martyrdom is not a positive, healthy trait. What does your therapist say about these thoughts and feelings? Are they, objectively speaking, reasonable, or do they proceed from a faulty brain chemistry?

Does your therapist agree with you that your wife doesn't care for/about you, or is it possible that this, too, is still being filtered through either the mental illness itself, or the side effects of the medication?

You can ask yourself or us these questions until the end of time, but I think your therapist is probably the best person to get an objective assessment from. We don't have enough information and you are compromised.

Even though you're better, it's possible that through some additional manipulation of your medication you have additional headroom to improve your happiness.

That said, as others have doubtless pointed out, your wife and children need you to do what's right for you, just as much as what's right for them. If things are objectively as bad as you state - and they may well be, I hope you understand I'm not trying to undermine your experience, just point you toward a solid foundation on which to base your claims - but if things are that bad, then you must set an example for them on how to resolve the issue without destroying things. Some fathers/husbands leave and do a lot of damage in doing so. Some never leave and everyone else learns that life is meant to be a joyless sacrifice.

Handled well, though, such a break will provide an opportunity for everyone to learn how to adapt and change to the improvement of everyone's life. Not to say it has no downsides, every break involves heartache (lifelong) and pain, but put on the balance it may be worth it given the increase in total happiness and opportunities for joy.

Also, I'm lazy and haven't read through the thread recently, sorry if this has already been asked and answered: is it possible that your wife also suffers from depression? There may be reasons she can't/doesn't show the affection and love you need that aren't by choice.

Chad Sexington said:

Does anyone else remember that guy (I can't remember his user name) who was married to a woman who would lock herself in her room if he had friends over, and thought everyone was stabbing her in the back, and he was making eyes at any female?

I think about that guy a lot.

Like, probably a weird amount.

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I think that poor boy was Shawnacy. I felt bad for that dude too. It was odd that he had this steam-punk wedding and seemed stoked, and then soon was posting all that sad stuff, and then soon dropped off the boards. Sounded like he was on a tough road. I think about him too from time to time.

Oh yeah, Shawnacy. I felt like he dropped off the boards because people were pretty blunt about his relationship, which I don't think he expected. I hope he's doing okay.

stienman said:

Does your therapist agree with you that your wife doesn't care for/about you, or is it possible that this, too...

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Actually, it is not his or her place to make that kind of statement. Acknowledge the feelings OP has regarding her not caring? Yes. Ask OP how he wants to proceed and maybe reframe the situation for OP to come to his own conclusion? Yes. Come right out and agree with OP that she doesn't care? I'm pretty sure that would be unethical.

drawn_inward said:

I think that poor boy was Shawnacy. I felt bad for that dude too. It was odd that he had this steam-punk wedding and seemed stoked, and then soon was posting all that sad stuff, and then soon dropped off the boards. Sounded like he was on a tough road. I think about him too from time to time.

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He also dressed as the Punisher for Halloween.


Just saying...

@anon, that perspective is a recipe for later resenting your family.

Well, no reason to hide behind Anonymous anymore. Just an update on what has happened here.

I did start seeing a therapist, and I don't really feel like it's done much. She agreed with me. The state of the marriage is the cause of my depression. Didn't need a therapist to tell me that. It's like going to a doctor with a knife stuck in your arm and having the doctor say, "Ah, I see your problem. You've been stabbed with a knife." She offered some exercises, but truth be told, I've tried a lot of it before. She acknowledged that, and encouraged trying again. For instance, she suggested going on dates with my wife. I have attempted to schedule a date many times since then, and every time, my wife has had a reason she cannot go.

One of my big problems with therapy is that there seems to be a general pattern to the way people process depression, and I'm not following that pattern. People seem to withdraw, stop exercising, stop doing things that interest them. I'm processing it in much the opposite way. I buckle down, and do more. I exercise till my legs fall off to self-medicate (like that dude in The Stand who ran until he gave out). So the advice like "exercise" and "force yourself to do things" doesn't do much for me.

Here's something else that happened. I have a really good relationship with my mother-in-law. I figured I'd try talking to her about the situation. That actually went very differently than I expected. I expected her to offer platitudes or come to her daughter's defense. Instead, she said, "Yes, I've noticed. She has always been like that. It's her." She ended by telling me I had to "do what I needed to do to help myself".

I've also tried again to talk to my wife. As always, she insists nothing's wrong. And I believe her. For her, the marriage is where it needs to be. It's fulfilling the things she wants out of a marriage, so it's good enough. There is no reason for her to work to change things because it's sufficient as is. She is extraordinarily pragmatic, and this is working for her.

fade said:

She is extraordinarily pragmatic, and this is working for her.

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Without trying to be mean, she sounds beyond pragmatic. If all she cares about is that it is working for her, she sounds sociopathic.

GasBandit said:

If all she cares about is that it is working for her, she sounds psychopathic.

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FTFY

While both describe a person with little or no empathy or morals, Sociopathy is usually characterized by impulsive, erratic, “outburst-y” behavior. A psychopath, on the other hand, is usually described as “distant,” calculating, manipulative, and/or self-centered.

And if that’s the case, I don’t know if anything short of an intervention would work, since it sounds like she would just Bartleby her way out of any sort of eval appointment. On the plus side, psycophathy has apparently been found to have some roots in genetics, so maybe that might mean it could be treated? (i.e. address the hardware-based concerns)

—Patrick

Well if we're being technical, they are both non-clinical terms for antisocial personality disorder, and there's no strong or accepted clinical definition for either.

It’s apparently a common enough thing that there’s a website devoted to it, though of course it looks as though when it says “dedicated to those who have lived with psychopathy” they’re not talking to the psychopath, they are talking to the people around him/her.

—Patrick

Are you waiting for her to agree there is a problem before committing to some kind of action? What is keeping you there if you are this unhappy? Sorry if you've answered those previously.

I think part of the problem with your therapist is that you get used to counseling people who don't know why they are depressed, don't know how to cope with their problems in a healthy way, and need a person in their lives that will listen to them. You already know what to do. Your depression, from what you've said here, is situational. It's because you're unhappy/unsatisfied with your marriage. Once that changes, your depression will likely improve. Unless your wife is willing to go to therapy, too, there isn't much that this counselor can do for you alone. The cause of your depression is rooted in your wife turning a blind eye to your needs as a partner, if she even sees you as partners.

In a way, I think you may be looking for someone to give you permission to feel the way you do about your marriage and that a separation/divorce will be ok if you choose that route. Could that be possible?

This is all, of course, only my opinion based on the impressions I'm getting from what you've written here and not a professional diagnosis/determination.

WasabiPoptart said:

Unless your wife is willing to go to therapy, too, there isn't much that this counselor can do for you alone.

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I wonder if the counselor isn’t waiting for him to actually speak the words, “I’m starting to think the problem is actually my wife, and nothing I change about myself is going to fix that” out loud.

—Patrick

Honestly, given that you first posted this three years ago and are still posting it, I don't think there's much of a chance it gets better. It's obviously your call, but at some point you can't keep waiting for her to get on board and just focus on yourself.

At this point, really the next option is marriage counseling. I know, she says there's nothing wrong. Well, she's wrong. And considering you've been doing all you can to fix your end of it, this is the next step. She needs to be willing to hear you out that you aren't okay with things, and in a clinical setting with a therapist as mediator so it doesn't look like you're just looking for a fight.

And if she refuses to go to marriage counseling, I think you should be willing to say "Then we have a problem" and what follows from there.

I think that point was reached three years ago when all this started.

If only one person is fulfilled, and they're not willing to do anything to see that the other person is fulfilled, that's reason enough to move on. You asked if this issue is reason enough to uproot your lives, and I personally believe the answer is yes. It must be hard to think about that when you're not the only people involved; I know you have kids. But I'll tell you, I have a very close friend who is not doing her kids any favors by staying with her husband. They don't love each other, and unlike you and your wife, they don't like each other either. I really do fear that their kids are developing a really warped view of what "building a life together with someone" looks like.

I really hope you make headway in some way soon. This sounds really frustrating. And truly do I get where you're coming from, doubting whether it's worth taking action. There's no way of knowing if there's anything any better out there for you, and that's scary. But is the mere prospect of something actually fulfilling worth the risk to you?

PatrThom said:

I wonder if the counselor isn’t waiting for him to actually speak the words, “I’m starting to think the problem is actually my wife, and nothing I change about myself is going to fix that” out loud.

—Patrick

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It's possible. You can't move forward until you get over the hurdle in your path. Sometimes that's you.

It's easy to say, "get a divorce". It's a lot harder to do it. Especially when you do love the other person. And when your 20th anniversary is next month. I've been with this woman most of my adult life. She used to not be like this.

fade said:

It's easy to say, "get a divorce". It's a lot harder to do it. Especially when you do love the other person. And when your 20th anniversary is next month. I've been with this woman most of my adult life. She used to not be like this.

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There's nothing easy about telling one of your friends that they should consider getting a divorce.

Gared said:

There's nothing easy about telling one of your friends that they should consider getting a divorce.

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True, but it's still easier than doing it.

Bubble181 said:

True, but it's still easier than doing it.

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Undoubtedly, yes. Even in sham marriages like mine was, getting a divorce sucks giant flaming donkey balls.

Gared said:

There's nothing easy about telling one of your friends that they should consider getting a divorce.

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If we're being completely transparent, as a single guy that's never been married and has no kids, I find it pretty easy.

fade said:

It's easy to say, "get a divorce". It's a lot harder to do it. Especially when you do love the other person. And when your 20th anniversary is next month. I've been with this woman most of my adult life. She used to not be like this.

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I get this. I really really do. And it's difficult and terrifying.

But the bottom line is that you aren't happy. And that will not change. Your wife has shown you that she isn't willing to put in the effort on your behalf. She used to not be like this yes, but she's not that person anymore. This is who she is now. People change, she's changed and you've changed. Just because your relationship wasn't always this way doesn't mean it can go back to what it was. This is the relationship you have now and it's up to you weather you think it's worth sticking out. Were it me, I would dip out. Personally, I would rather be alone than in an unfulfilling relationship, which you may feel differently, but it's an option.

There will never be a good time to divorce someone. Seriously, Nate and I put it off for months because of family weddings and holidays and a million other reasons, until finally I couldn't take it.

Also, I just...it sounds like not much will change in your relationship with a divorce? If she's already treating you like a roommate, a divorce shouldn't be that big of a step. In my situation, barely anything changed in my relationship, which just further proved how broken it was to me. He and I still get a long insanely well, we don't argue, I still have affection for him, but we are not compatible in a relationship. It kinda sounds like you're in the same boat?

I don't know, all I can do is speak from my own experience. I know none of this will be easy and I'm very sorry you're dealing with it all.

My best friend is on his second divorce, and honestly, he's happier than he's been in a long time. His first wife was borderline abusive and when he talked about going to marriage counseling, she said, "No, everything is fine, you just need to accept that." His second wife changed after they got married. She had trouble staying employed, she started withdrawing socially, then she started just staying in her room playing SWTOR, Dragon Age, and "working on mods" for them. She devoted more of her time to Dragon Age than to their marriage. And he was sick of being alone. So when he tried to get them to do things together, she would complain about it, but then overcompensate by being smothering. So they separated, and he started seeing a former coworker. They seem to be clicking well and he's honestly just a lot happier than he used to be.

LittleKagsin said:

I get this. I really really do. And it's difficult and terrifying.

But the bottom line is that you aren't happy. And that will not change. Your wife has shown you that she isn't willing to put in the effort on your behalf. She used to not be like this yes, but she's not that person anymore. This is who she is now. People change, she's changed and you've changed. Just because your relationship wasn't always this way doesn't mean it can go back to what it was. This is the relationship you have now and it's up to you weather you think it's worth sticking out. Were it me, I would dip out. Personally, I would rather be alone than in an unfulfilling relationship, which you may feel differently, but it's an option.

There will never be a good time to divorce someone. Seriously, Nate and I put it off for months because of family weddings and holidays and a million other reasons, until finally I couldn't take it.

Also, I just...it sounds like not much will change in your relationship with a divorce? If she's already treating you like a roommate, a divorce shouldn't be that big of a step. In my situation, barely anything changed in my relationship, which just further proved how broken it was to me. He and I still get a long insanely well, we don't argue, I still have affection for him, but we are not compatible in a relationship. It kinda sounds like you're in the same boat?

I don't know, all I can do is speak from my own experience. I know none of this will be easy and I'm very sorry you're dealing with it all.

Click to expand...

To quote Modest Mouse:

"And I'm lonesome when you're around
And I'm never lonesome when I'm by myself
And I miss you when you're around"

fade said:

To quote Modest Mouse:

"And I'm lonesome when you're around
And I'm never lonesome when I'm by myself
And I miss you when you're around"

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Brofist, but also hugs. :/

Pragmatism isn't considering the other person's happiness as optional.

So, I had a real conversation with her this weekend. It started as an argument. Actually, it started as a disagreement over what the word "argument" means. Anyway, she told me she wouldn't talk because the kids were around--an excuse I've gotten before. So I said I was leaving for a while if she didn't talk to me. I meant it, too.

Anyway, she confirmed my suspicion--she thinks nothing is wrong with the marriage. You know, despite me telling her for years I feel like there is. She agreed that she should communicate more, and to her credit, since then, she has been making a minimal effort to do so. But I still cannot get anything from her. I still know nothing about her side of the story. All she says is, "What do you want me to say?" I don't want a parrot, I want her point. And she just answers that there's nothing really to say. That everything seemed fine to her. That's just so odd to me.

It sounds like she's not emotionally enough attached to you to give a fuck about fixing your relationship. Her material needs are met, so she's good, and nothing else matters to her.

https://www.avvo.com/divorce-separation-lawyer/tx/houston.html

Sounds like your emotional needs and expectations are just really vastly different. Up to you to decide what to do with that info. Sorry for all the frustration

More or less "I'm fine, so why are you making it difficult?"

Honestly, it sounds to me like she's probably depressed herself, but is numb to it and doesn't see how or why it should change. I know with dealing with my own depression, for a long time I simply operated under the belief that it was the norm and expected.

Zero Esc said:

More or less "I'm fine, so why are you making it difficult?"

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The proper response is, "Because I'm NOT fine."

Well. Here we are years later. Still the same. Nothing ever changes. I mean, I guess nothing is any worse, but it certainly isn't any better.

It's just so hard to explain to anyone who isn't here, either, because the reactions are always (I think) disproportionate to what's happening. Everyone goes for the d word, but I just don't know if that's justified. Maybe I expect too much. She certainly thinks I do. She thinks our marriage and level of interaction as a couple is on par with other couples. And honestly, the more I hear about people my age having separate everything and even doing the "living together apart" thing, maybe she's not wrong. Maybe the problem is this is what a mature relationship tends toward, and I'm the one who's different for wanting it to be passionate.

I did bring up divorce. But it was met with such a tepid reaction that I didn't even know how to take it. She said "if that's what will help you", in a way that made it somehow seem that simultaneously a) she wouldn't actually care, b) it would be my fault, and c) she'd be doing it all for me. In any case, no emotion.

Also, one of my best friends, who I've known since high school, has been going through a lot of the same stuff. She and her husband have been friends since childhood, and they were so emotionally intertwined that everyone was frankly amazed when she had enough and asked for a divorce. But to hear her tell it, it was nearly the same story as mine. He was just withdrawn, and preferred to live his own solo life inside the marriage. The result of the divorce is not quite as cathartic as people sometimes make it out to be. She has been an emotional wreck, wondering if she did the right thing, etc. and I'm sure I'd be the same.

fade said:

Well. Here we are years later. Still the same. Nothing ever changes. I mean, I guess nothing is any worse, but it certainly isn't any better.

It's just so hard to explain to anyone who isn't here, either, because the reactions are always (I think) disproportionate to what's happening. Everyone goes for the d word, but I just don't know if that's justified. Maybe I expect too much. She certainly thinks I do. She thinks our marriage and level of interaction as a couple is on par with other couples. And honestly, the more I hear about people my age having separate everything and even doing the "living together apart" thing, maybe she's not wrong. Maybe the problem is this is what a mature relationship tends toward, and I'm the one who's different for wanting it to be passionate.

I did bring up divorce. But it was met with such a tepid reaction that I didn't even know how to take it. She said "if that's what will help you", in a way that made it somehow seem that simultaneously a) she wouldn't actually care, b) it would be my fault, and c) she'd be doing it all for me. In any case, no emotion.

Also, one of my best friends, who I've known since high school, has been going through a lot of the same stuff. She and her husband have been friends since childhood, and they were so emotionally intertwined that everyone was frankly amazed when she had enough and asked for a divorce. But to hear her tell it, it was nearly the same story as mine. He was just withdrawn, and preferred to live his own solo life inside the marriage. The result of the divorce is not quite as cathartic as people sometimes make it out to be. She has been an emotional wreck, wondering if she did the right thing, etc. and I'm sure I'd be the same.

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Im glad you have a friend who you can relate to. At the end of the day though, I think it’s pretty hard to compare yourself to anyone else. Everyone’s relationship is so different. I don’t think it’s weird to want a passionate relationship, at any age.

And with that, I think every divorce is different too - I don’t regret mine for a second (Nate and I are even back together now), but you may regret it if you go that route.

I’m sorry it’s more of the same. I don’t blame you for feeling the way you do. I wish I had better advice for you. Is there something you want to do but are afraid to do so?

The suggestion of divorce being met with a verbal shrug doesn't sound healthy, but there is no normal. It's really a matter of what you're okay with.

Hailey Knight said:

The suggestion of divorce being met with a verbal shrug doesn't sound healthy, but there is no normal. It's really a matter of what you're okay with.

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It sounds like depression to me, and I'm going to reiterate that it sounds like they're both depressed.

It's not a verbal shrug, though. It's more like I'm standing in front of a woodchipper, thinking about jumping in, and everyone around me just casually keeps saying, "Jeez dude just jump in". That's easy to say when you're not the one who has to jump into the whirly death machine.

My marriage isn't what I want. I'm looking for conversation about that, maybe confirmation that I'm not crazy in how I perceive what's happening. Maybe it's me, and that's kind of what I'm trying to find out.

I really don't think she's depressed. She has no typical signs of depression, and if somehow I've given that impression, then I did a poor job of explaining. As I said before, she is content with the way things are. Hell, that's 95% of the problem! This is what she wants. She is living her life the way she wants, and it looks like she and I are incompatible on what we want out of a marriage. For her, this silo living is perfect. For me it's not. She shows no signs of wanting different. If she does, she hasn't expressed it in the many hundreds of conversations I've tried to have about it over the years. This is not a woman who stays quiet on something either. We're talking a type A extrovert who has managed to get not one but 2 lemon law buybacks and a free transmission, start an entire program at her University, etc. If she wants something, she will say it. That's how I know she is content. Plus, I know her mom, and her marriage is much the same. She's the boss, she does what she wants. I mean, it's possible I'm wrong about her being depressed, but I don't think so. This is someone who engages heavily in her life--just not the part with me.

I don't mean to seem argumentative, and if I seem so, it's because I've had this same conversation in person with friends and family for 10 years. But I get defensive of her, because no one has her side or sees how things are outside of my filtered story where I only tell you the bad parts

fade said:

I don't mean to seem argumentative, and if I seem so, it's because I've had this same conversation in person with friends and family for 10 years. But I get defensive of her, because no one has her side or sees how things are outside of my filtered story where I only tell you the bad parts

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I wouldn't say divorce is easy or not a major decision, but you've been unhappy for literally 10 years. So at this point you know you will be unhappy for the rest of your life if you stay with her. Divorce might be worse, or it might be better. But staying together means that you will not be happy for the rest of your life, unless she happens to die young. And I don't think you want to wake up every day thinking that if your wife dies you'll finally get that chance of happiness.

Well.

The problem has been resolved. She came to me with divorce papers yesterday. I talked about it a lot, but I never really planned to do it. It was just therapy to say it and argue out my side.

Basically, she found a new group of friends, and she has been spending a lot of time with them. Our kids are teens now, and one is graduating. So they're self-sufficient for a large part. Anyway. She told me they had been talking about it a lot, and that with the help of her friends, she had come to the conclusion that I was right. She hadn't been communicating with me, and she had been avoiding me. She said I was right about the timing for everything, though she said she really couldn't give a reason for why things changed. She apologized and said that she didn't think there was a way to fix things, and that she couldn't see a future with me. Her divorce document was really short. She waived the rights to everything except kids. She said she doesn't want to fight about it, and she wants to make it as painless as possible. I'm heartbroken. I spent 25 years with her. Maybe it will be for the best in the long run, but it isn't much fun right now.

Aw man, sorry to hear that.

Sorry to hear it, man.

fade said:

Well.

The problem has been resolved. She came to me with divorce papers yesterday. I talked about it a lot, but I never really planned to do it. It was just therapy to say it and argue out my side.

Basically, she found a new group of friends, and she has been spending a lot of time with them. Our kids are teens now, and one is graduating. So they're self-sufficient for a large part. Anyway. She told me they had been talking about it a lot, and that with the help of her friends, she had come to the conclusion that I was right. She hadn't been communicating with me, and she had been avoiding me. She said I was right about the timing for everything, though she said she really couldn't give a reason for why things changed. She apologized and said that she didn't think there was a way to fix things, and that she couldn't see a future with me. Her divorce document was really short. She waived the rights to everything except kids. She said she doesn't want to fight about it, and she wants to make it as painless as possible. I'm heartbroken. I spent 25 years with her. Maybe it will be for the best in the long run, but it isn't much fun right now.

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It sucks to feel it, I can only imagine. But given you prior posts, I think/feel/hope that it will come to have been the best outcome for you.

Ugh. That sucks. Sorry man.

Even if you thought it would happen, and even if on some levels you wanted it to happen, I know it still feels shitty. But hopefully, it'll turn out well in the end for you based on the things you've posted in here.

I could move literally anywhere, I guess. My job went permanent WFH during the pandemic. But I guess I'm still limited to the city I live in so that I can keep in regular contact with my kids.

I think i've moved past the initial "cry constantly" phase to an angry phase. I mean, not yell out loud. Just more like I look around and see all these things that I built or planned, and now they suddenly don't mean anything. Even literally built. She watched me spend an entire weekend last week pulling everything out of the garage, building new storage and a hanging bike rack--and never said anything. She obviously knew by then.

I'm also a little pissed off at the reasons she gave. She said we had drifted apart, which fine, okay. But then she said I sit around on the weekends and do nothing...which pissed me off. That isn't true. Come on. I have literally invented things that didn't exist. What she means is that I don't do the things she wants to do. The other part of that that pisses me off is that for the last 4 years since we lived in this house, all she did on the weekends was sit in her recliner or bed on her laptop*. If I ever tried to get her to do anything, she'd say no. Only very recently has she gotten into this soccer club that hangs out until all hours. And if she means the last year, well no crap. We had fundamentally different ideas on how strict to adhere to quarantine procedures, and mine doesn't include hanging out in a hottub with four people who work in the medical field.

* I don't mean to imply that she was being lazy. This is her job. She's a prof, and she grades on the weekends so she can spend the week doing kid-related stuff. Point being that she wasn't doing "anything" either by her own definition.

Also, now I have to find an apartment. Which means I have to sell everything in my garage, including the sailing kayak I saved for a literal decade to afford (those fuckers are 10 grand new and they don't really depreciate much. I saved forever for a used one, and just got it last year). My rolling toolbox. All my woodworking stuff, like table saw, drill press. My regular kayaks. My air compressor...

Yes, I know I could store these, but the idea of storage frankly rubs me the wrong way.

fade said:

Also, now I have to find an apartment. Which means I have to sell everything in my garage, including the sailing kayak I saved for a literal decade to afford (those fuckers are 10 grand new and they don't really depreciate much. I saved forever for a used one, and just got it last year). My rolling toolbox. All my woodworking stuff, like table saw, drill press. My regular kayaks. My air compressor...

Yes, I know I could store these, but the idea of storage frankly rubs me the wrong way.

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Didn't she say she waved her rights to everything but the kids? So isn't the house yours? Or won't you be able to keep it on a single paycheck?

Well, she waived the rights, but the understanding is that we will split everything up on our own amicably. I don't really want to stay here single anyway.

fade said:

Also, now I have to find an apartment. Which means I have to sell everything in my garage, including the sailing kayak I saved for a literal decade to afford (those fuckers are 10 grand new and they don't really depreciate much. I saved forever for a used one, and just got it last year). My rolling toolbox. All my woodworking stuff, like table saw, drill press. My regular kayaks. My air compressor...

Yes, I know I could store these, but the idea of storage frankly rubs me the wrong way.

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Nah, dude, save the things you love. All this shall pass and you'll find yourself thinking back how you wish you hadn't sold all of that and have a "Damn! I could have had a V8!" moment.

Tiger Tsang said:

Nah, dude, save the things you love. All this shall pass and you'll find yourself thinking back how you wish you hadn't sold all of that and have a "Damn! I could have had a V8!" moment.

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I would echo this. My brother purged when he got divorced. He said he felt like he just didn't give a shit about anything he owned. Later he came to regret that, big time. There were some important keepsakes, and he ended up re-buying things he wanted later anyway.

Tress said:

I would echo this. My brother purged when he got divorced. He said he felt like he just didn't give a shit about anything he owned. Later he came to regret that, big time. There were some important keepsakes, and he ended up re-buying things he wanted later anyway.

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That is definitely my mindset right now. I get your point, but pragmatically speaking, it's a good time to get rid of stuff I rarely use. Like the drill press for example. It's heavy and huge, and while I use it, I only need it for really precise drilling like my Halloween props. Usually I can just use a regular drill. I'm definitely not giving up my power tools. I'll just box them up in a closet for now.

Funny enough, it'd be a paying forward. I got a lot of my woodworking stuff for a song when my neighbor did the same thing a decade and a half ago. He said, you know what? You got...$300 on you? It's all yours. Which was a fraction. Like me, he just wanted it gone.

Another thing...divorce and post-divorce support online seems to be heavily biased toward women, and women of a certain personality. It's hard to find much help for dudes. I mean, sure, some of it is unisex, but a lot of it is very much geared toward the Sex and the City crowd.

fade said:

Another thing...divorce and post-divorce support online seems to be heavily biased toward women, and women of a certain personality. It's hard to find much help for dudes. I mean, sure, some of it is unisex, but a lot of it is very much geared toward the Sex and the City crowd.

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If it helps, we can try to assist you in figuring out if you're a Carrie, Samantha, Charlotte or Miranda.

Seriously though, that sucks.

*sips cosmo*

Well, it has been an interesting 2 months since she gave me divorce papers. I went through some really deep, deep sadness like I hadn't felt in ages. Like that kind that makes you feel like you cannot even breathe in. I can't say it's really much better. I haven't had much time to process anything. I spent so much time repairing and repainting this house. All by myself while she continued to go out with her soccer friends. She's never here anymore. I do everything around here, and frankly I am feeling a little taken advantage of. But despite all that..ironically, she actually talks to me now. The one thing I ever wanted. The one thing that would've saved it all.

The saddest thing that happened over the last two months was when I told her that I guess I always knew she never felt the same about me that I did about her, and instead of protesting, she agreed. She said she regretted not saying anything sooner, which was cold comfort.

Damn that's brutal. Sorry dude, hopefully better days are ahead.

fade said:

Well, it has been an interesting 2 months since she gave me divorce papers. I went through some really deep, deep sadness like I hadn't felt in ages. Like that kind that makes you feel like you cannot even breathe in. I can't say it's really much better. I haven't had much time to process anything. I spent so much time repairing and repainting this house. All by myself while she continued to go out with her soccer friends. She's never here anymore. I do everything around here, and frankly I am feeling a little taken advantage of. But despite all that..ironically, she actually talks to me now. The one thing I ever wanted. The one thing that would've saved it all.

The saddest thing that happened over the last two months was when I told her that I guess I always knew she never felt the same about me that I did about her, and instead of protesting, she agreed. She said she regretted not saying anything sooner, which was cold comfort.

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She honestly sounds like a sociopath, if not for the regret part, if that's genuine.

fade said:

Well, it has been an interesting 2 months since she gave me divorce papers. I went through some really deep, deep sadness like I hadn't felt in ages. Like that kind that makes you feel like you cannot even breathe in. I can't say it's really much better. I haven't had much time to process anything. I spent so much time repairing and repainting this house. All by myself while she continued to go out with her soccer friends. She's never here anymore. I do everything around here, and frankly I am feeling a little taken advantage of. But despite all that..ironically, she actually talks to me now. The one thing I ever wanted. The one thing that would've saved it all.

The saddest thing that happened over the last two months was when I told her that I guess I always knew she never felt the same about me that I did about her, and instead of protesting, she agreed. She said she regretted not saying anything sooner, which was cold comfort.

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When you begin to realize you've been living a lie, even if a blissful lie, then the truth can feel freeing.

Just an update on this. House is sold and gone. We made a pretty good profit off of it, but she couldn't resist screwing me over one last time. For context, we decided to keep our joint accounts until the house closed. We only have one credit card, and it's from our bank. She's always been the financial manager, and I had no access to these accounts. However, I do have access to my credit report, which gives me the balances. She racked up a large credit card debt getting her new place set up and paying for her attorney. When we got the proceeds, she insisted that we pay the credit card first, then split the rest. I said, I don't want to pay your credit card debt. Oh don't worry, she says, I paid that down quite a bit. So we get the profits, and she pays things off, and then gives the passwords and removes herself from the joint account.

Now, I don't know if she thinks I'm stupid, but giving me the account details means I now have the full CC statement and bank statement. I can easily see the closing payout, and how much the credit card bill was. I know math isn't her thing, but surely she realizes that paying off the CC and then splitting is exactly equivalent to me paying off half the CC. Also, her "big payment" was not that big, and it was from the joint checking account, which means I still paid for more than half of it.

For the record, we're talking thousands of dollars here. I checked the CC statement, and lets say generously I agree maybe 1/4-1/3 of the debt was pre-divorce or mine. Generously. I think if I press her on it, she will simply say we both shared the attorney, so I should pay half. Bullshit. It was her attorney and her divorce. I simply didn't contest it. I had no attorney, because her terms were generous on paper. But I don't think I should pay half of hers.

What it really comes down to is that I really don't want to fight it. Only the kids will pay the price. And because we were together 25 years, she knows I won't fight it, which is exactly why she did it. It has certainly made it easier to move on, though...

Oh, and while I'm ranting, we agreed to split the house contents, but...she hired movers who came and cleared out most of the stuff. To be clear, I was fine with almost all of that. But I'm not fine with the fact that she didn't ask me. She just did it.

And, one more rant. She just stopped answering me. She won't communicate at all anymore.

fade said:

Just an update on this. House is sold and gone. We made a pretty good profit off of it, but she couldn't resist screwing me over one last time. For context, we decided to keep our joint accounts until the house closed. We only have one credit card, and it's from our bank. She's always been the financial manager, and I had no access to these accounts. However, I do have access to my credit report, which gives me the balances. She racked up a large credit card debt getting her new place set up and paying for her attorney. When we got the proceeds, she insisted that we pay the credit card first, then split the rest. I said, I don't want to pay your credit card debt. Oh don't worry, she says, I paid that down quite a bit. So we get the profits, and she pays things off, and then gives the passwords and removes herself from the joint account.

Now, I don't know if she thinks I'm stupid, but giving me the account details means I now have the full CC statement and bank statement. I can easily see the closing payout, and how much the credit card bill was. I know math isn't her thing, but surely she realizes that paying off the CC and then splitting is exactly equivalent to me paying off half the CC. Also, her "big payment" was not that big, and it was from the joint checking account, which means I still paid for more than half of it.

For the record, we're talking thousands of dollars here. I checked the CC statement, and lets say generously I agree maybe 1/4-1/3 of the debt was pre-divorce or mine. Generously. I think if I press her on it, she will simply say we both shared the attorney, so I should pay half. Bullshit. It was her attorney and her divorce. I simply didn't contest it. I had no attorney, because her terms were generous on paper. But I don't think I should pay half of hers.

What it really comes down to is that I really don't want to fight it. Only the kids will pay the price. And because we were together 25 years, she knows I won't fight it, which is exactly why she did it. It has certainly made it easier to move on, though...

Oh, and while I'm ranting, we agreed to split the house contents, but...she hired movers who came and cleared out most of the stuff. To be clear, I was fine with almost all of that. But I'm not fine with the fact that she didn't ask me. She just did it.

And, one more rant. She just stopped answering me. She won't communicate at all anymore.

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JFC.

At some point, you start to think that ANY size exit wound is worth just being done and gone... but on the other hand, fucking put termites on her new house or something.