[PC Game] World of Warcraft: Catch All Thread

You seem to be missing the point.

It's not about the suspicion, it's about the methods.

She has a right to want justice. She shouldn't be carrying out that justice through the death of innocent magi, more so without valid proof. She saw what could have been the work of a single Sunreaver, and now the whole faction is getting brutalized by her own magi. The reason I say she is becoming the Alliance Garrosh is because her action are heavy-handed and not really seen through in any way that would be deemed respectable. Remember, this is not some random Horde outpost, these are the citizens of her own new city, lead by one of the Council of Six. It would be like a member of SI:7 decided to work for the Horde and helped feed them information, and suddenly Varian finds out and throws Mathias Shaw and all his men in the Stockades, cutting down any that try to escape. (And SI:7 has worked with the Horde in the past). Dare I say she is doing what Garrosh did to her at Theramore, lashing out versus a group because she can't see people, only a flag that now represents her enemy all the innocents be damned.

Also, I would not really call Varian "genocidal". Just because he was being mouthy with Thrall does not mean he wants all the orcs to be dead. He even let Varok Saurfang collect his son at Icecrown because he respected him. He is not entirely without merit. (Metzen even said that during the upcoming Orgrimmar Raid, Varian will be shown saving orc children to help starve off a lot of the image he developed during WOTLK.)
 
I'm starting to wonder if CRZ is disabled on my server, ran around Northrend last night, didn't see anyone else...
 
You seem to be missing the point.

It's not about the suspicion, it's about the methods.

She has a right to want justice. She shouldn't be carrying out that justice through the death of innocent magi, more so without valid proof. She saw what could have been the work of a single Sunreaver, and now the whole faction is getting brutalized by her own magi. The reason I say she is becoming the Alliance Garrosh is because her action are heavy-handed and not really seen through in any way that would be deemed respectable. Remember, this is not some random Horde outpost, these are the citizens of her own new city, lead by one of the Council of Six. It would be like a member of SI:7 decided to work for the Horde and helped feed them information, and suddenly Varian finds out and throws Mathias Shaw and all his men in the Stockades, cutting down any that try to escape. (And SI:7 has worked with the Horde in the past). Dare I say she is doing what Garrosh did to her at Theramore, lashing out versus a group because she can't see people, only a flag that now represents her enemy.

Also, I would not really call Varian "genocidal". Just because he was being mouthy with Thrall does not mean he wants all the orcs to be dead. He even let Varok Saurfang collect his son at Icecrown because he respected him. He is not entirely without merit. (Metzen even said that during the upcoming Orgrimmar Raid, Varian will be shown saving orc children to help starve off a lot of the image he developed during WOTLK.)
I got the point, you compared Jaina to Garrosh. My point was, no, she's not that bad despite your example.

There's a difference between heavy handed and mass slaughter. For the record, Varian WAS genocidal or have we forgotten the Undercity event?
 
Last time I was in the game with any seriousness, reforging didn't exist. You took the stats you were given, and lived with the consequences.

So up to now, my gear sucked, especially on my DK. Expertise less than one percent. That's no good. But with a little judicious reforging, I'm much closer to the magic 7.5% mark.

And I'm not taking a quarter of my total health in damage every fight anymore. Go me. :)
 
I got the point, you compared Jaina to Garrosh. My point was, no, she's not that bad despite your example.
My comparison was more that they are making her into the Alliance Garrosh, not on the same level of Garrosh, but she is supposed to be the new war focused, anti-horde character. The events in 5.1 are designed specifically to make her our as ruthless, reckless, and even a bit crazy, doing things despite what may happen to innocent people, because she only cares about her justice. Again, they are making VARIAN uneasy by her methods, and that's pretty nuts.

For the record, Varian WAS genocidal or have we forgotten the Undercity event?
That was him being mouthy, like I said, but being mouthy does not mean he is actually genocidal. He was riding high on passions. The Wrathgate just occurred, he got to see his old home of Lordaeron turned into a corpse factory, and he had just gotten over getting merged back together and dealing with the Lo'Gosh persona. He was wrong, obviously, but in that same expansion he proved it was not all "I hate orcs, kill them all!" when he allowed Saurfang to take his dead son away.
 
My comparison was more that they are making her into the Alliance Garrosh, not on the same level of Garrosh, but she is supposed to be the new war focused, anti-horde character. The events in 5.1 are designed specifically to make her our as ruthless, reckless, and even a bit crazy, doing things despite what may happen to innocent people, because she only cares about her justice. Again, they are making VARIAN uneasy by her methods, and that's pretty nuts.
Varian being uneasy about her methods is not remotely nuts if you (and I know you have) have read about how far he has come and the person he is today. Also -Making her into the Alliance Garrosh but not on the same level of Garrosh- why bother making the comparison at all. Again, she is not as ruthless, reckless or crazy. If she were, she'd be slaughtering the Sunreavers and throwing them off the edges of Dalaran, laughing while they splatter onto the ground below.

ScytheRexx said:
That was him being mouthy, like I said, but being mouthy does not mean he is actually genocidal. He was riding high on passions. The Wrathgate just occurred, he got to see his old home of Lordaeron turned into a corpse factory, and he had just gotten over getting merged back together and dealing with the Lo'Gosh persona. He was wrong, obviously, but in that same expansion he proved it was not all "I hate orcs, kill them all!" when he allowed Saurfang to take his dead son away.
King Varian Wrynn says: I was away for too long. My absence cost us the lives of some of our greatest heroes. Trash like you and this evil witch were allowed to roam free -- unchecked.
King Varian Wrynn says: The time has come to make things right. To disband your treacherous kingdom of murderers and thieves. Putress was the first strike. Many more will come.
King Varian Wrynn says: I've waited a long time for this, Thrall. For every time I was thrown into one of your damned arenas... for every time I killed a green-skinned aberration like you... I could only think of one thing.
King Varian Wrynn says: What our world could be without you and your twisted Horde... It ends now, Warchief.
King Varian Wrynn says: ATTACK! FOR STORMWIND! FOR BOLVAR! FOR THE ALLIANCE!

Direct transcript from the Undercity event. That's not mouthy, that's genocidal.
 
Varian being uneasy about her methods is not remotely nuts if you (and I know you have) have read about how far he has come and the person he is today. Also -Making her into the Alliance Garrosh but not on the same level of Garrosh- why bother making the comparison at all. Again, she is not as ruthless, reckless or crazy. If she were, she'd be slaughtering the Sunreavers and throwing them off the edges of Dalaran, laughing while they splatter onto the ground below.

I make the comparison because each faction needs to have the "omg what is wrong with that guy" person, Jaina has taken that role, Garrosh has that role on the Horde. I was not comparing 1:1, I was comparing their purpose in the storyline. They serve the same purpose now, only for the different faction, to be the new main reckless conflict driver. The one that, possibly when the Horde want peace in the next expansion, will be the one throwing in the wrench to make sure the status quo is kept. You keep misunderstanding the point of my comparison because you think I am saying Jaina IS Garrosh, I never said that, I said she is now the Alliances Garrosh in purpose. A new wedge driver.

Direct transcript from the Undercity event. That's not mouthy, that's genocidal.
How so? Can you point out where in that sentence he said he was going to kill every orc in existence? You do understand what genocide means, correct?

He wants to dismantle the Horde, and he dislikes orcs, finding them abberations. That is a far cry from wanting to murder them down to every man, woman, and child, which is what would make him genocidal.

This is ignoring his development since a few patches after this event, which threw the whole thing out the window anyways.
 
You keep misunderstanding the point of my comparison because you think I am saying Jaina IS Garrosh, I never said that, I said she is now the Alliances Garrosh in purpose. A new wedge driver.
Simply going to keep disagreeing, she still finds purpose in diplomacy between the Horde and the Alliance. It is her goal once Garrosh is unseated. This attack on the Sunreavers is in part of that. So again, she's a -drivinge wedge force- She's not doing it for the sake of doing it.
How so? Can you point out where in that sentence he said he was going to kill every orc in existence? You do understand what genocide means, correct?
King Varian Wrynn says: For every time I was thrown into one of your damned arenas... for every time I killed a green-skinned aberration like you... I could only think of one thing. What our world could be without you and your twisted Horde... It ends now.
 
He was talking about ending the Horde as an alliance. He wanted to kill Thrall so the Horde would fall, he didn't say anything about killing every last Orc.

King Varian Wrynn says: The time has come to make things right. To disband your treacherous kingdom of murderers and thieves. Putress was the first strike. Many more will come.
 
Simply going to keep disagreeing, she still finds purpose in diplomacy between the Horde and the Alliance. It is her goal once Garrosh is unseated. This attack on the Sunreavers is in part of that. So again, she's a -drivinge wedge force- She's not doing it for the sake of doing it.
Part of what? Diplomacy? I don't see killing innocent magi much diplomacy, and it sure didn't help her blood elf relations, as she has become enemy number one to the entire race.

King Varian Wrynn says: For every time I was thrown into one of your damned arenas... for every time I killed a green-skinned aberration like you... I could only think of one thing. What our world could be without you and your twisted Horde... It ends now.
Shakey already pointed it out, but nothing in that says he wants to kill all the orcs. He wants to see the world without the Horde. You have yet to actual point out what in that sentence implies genocide. Terenas wanted the Horde destroyed too, but when the Second War came to a close and the Horde dismantled, he put all the orcs into camps, because he didn't want to murder them all. If anything Varian showed racist tendencies, not genocidal ones.
 
You all are reading what you want to in Varian's quote, he clearly says -Every time I killed a green-skin I could only think of one thing a world without you and the Horde- it's that simple. A world without them. An erradication.

And yes, Diplomacy, sometimes you break eggs to make an omlette but in the end she's aiming for a peace between them. She's getting rid of any problems that will stand in the way of that. Anything or anyone who stands by Garrosh or helped him to do his evil are fair game.
 
You could read it either way guys, seriously.

I'm still more perturbed over the Jaina 180. It just seems super out of character. A demon/undead apocalypse didn't turn her nuts. Her lover being the world's ultimate evil didn't turn her nuts. Then the thought that a wizard could do something bad means all wizards like him must die? Come on.
 
You could read it either way guys, seriously.

I'm still more perturbed over the Jaina 180. It just seems super out of character. A demon/undead apocalypse didn't turn her nuts. Her lover being the world's ultimate evil didn't turn her nuts. Then the thought that a wizard could do something bad means all wizards like him must die? Come on.
Um, no. It was an amazingly well told story as to why she becomes the way she did. 100% justified in her actions. Her extremes? Not completely, but her actions have some real weight behind them. Also, she's not nuts in the least.
 
Um, no. It was an amazingly well told story as to why she becomes the way she did. 100% justified in her actions. Her extremes? Not completely, but her actions have some real weight behind them. Also, she's not nuts in the least.
HA HA!

Ok.
 
You all are reading what you want to in Varian's quote, he clearly says -Every time I killed a green-skin I could only think of one thing a world without you and the Horde- it's that simple. A world without them. An erradication.
Once again, you miss the key word. World without the Horde. He obviously is going to imagine a world without said enemy faction while fighting and killing members of said enemy faction, that is not exactly an unheard of outlook. Where you are making a huge jump is extrapolating that sentence into meaning genocide.

And yes, Diplomacy, sometimes you break eggs to make an omlette but in the end she's aiming for a peace between them. She's getting rid of any problems that will stand in the way of that. Anything or anyone who stands by Garrosh or helped him to do his evil are fair game.
Once again, the issue is not the fact she is stopping people who are helping Garrosh, it's the fact she is basically imprisoning and killing an entire faction because of the possible actions of a few of them. That is not how you handle diplomacy. You don't make friends with the other faction by killing their civilians, she should know that better then anyone by now considering what happened not too long ago.

Worst yet they are not even really Horde, but more or less Dalaran citizens that, out of ties to Silvermoon, are closer to the Horde. When the dust settles and "peace" is made, do you really think the Blood Elves of Silvermoon are going to just forgive and forget? They already started comparing her to Garithos, the one who turned them towards the Horde in the first place.
 
I... it's crazy shit like this that kill any desire I have to re-start this game. They have taken a character who was supposed to be the BASTION of diplomancy (spelling intentional) in Azeroth, and completely destroyed everything that she stood for via what amounts to "DM fiat."

Fuck that noise.
 
I... it's crazy shit like this that kill any desire I have to re-start this game. They have taken a character who was supposed to be the BASTION of diplomancy (spelling intentional) in Azeroth, and completely destroyed everything that she stood for via what amounts to "DM fiat."

Fuck that noise.
Eh. it doesn't stop me from playing the game, but yeah, trying to turn even the good characters in the WC universe into raid bosses by twisting their characters is annoying. I still hate what they did with Kael'Thas Sunstrider in the Burning Crusade. For that matter, going from the morally complex stance of the naga, blood elves, and Illidan at the end of the Frozen Thrown to outright cartoon villains in BC annoyed me as well.
 
Eh. it doesn't stop me from playing the game, but yeah, trying to turn even the good characters in the WC universe into raid bosses by twisting their characters is annoying. I still hate what they did with Kael'Thas Sunstrider in the Burning Crusade. For that matter, going from the morally complex stance of the naga, blood elves, and Illidan at the end of the Frozen Thrown to outright cartoon villains in BC annoyed me as well.
Yep. In many ways I just pretend the lore ended at Wc3: FT and I'm a lot happier.
 
Wow, seriously guys? It's not even remotely as you all are taking it.

It is sad that none of this information is being relayed in game, but the storyline that change Jaina into a bit more of a firestarter than a firedowser is amazing.
 
Wow, seriously guys? It's not even remotely as you all are taking it.

It is sad that none of this information is being relayed in game, but the storyline that change Jaina into a bit more of a firestarter than a firedowser is amazing.
Look, a lot of us grew up playing the Warcraft series, and many of us played WoW as well. WoW presented some great storylines, but the lore had to change in so many ways and be pigeonholed into the way the MMO was set up. A lot of our favorite characters went off the deep-end to become loot chests for reasons that stretch credibility. It's why "...and then he went CRAZY" became such a meme for WoW players. Not saying it's all bad, but I do believe that story-wise, Warcraft has suffered in some respects.
 
It is sad that none of this information is being relayed in game, but the storyline that change Jaina into a bit more of a firestarter than a firedowser is amazing.
It was a good novel, the issue is many people like me didn't like it because of what it did to Jaina. I know you are going to hate it, but the back and forth between her "peaceful" side and her new "pissed" side reminds many of us lore hounds of the "I am honorable!" and "kill the babies!" that came to define Garrosh as such a weak character for years, one minute you are seeing him slapping an orc for being dishonorable and killing innocents with a bomb, the next he is dropping a bomb on a city filled with innocents.

You are not the only one that reads these novels, some of us that have read it don't exactly agree with it was amazing.
 
Hard to post properly on my phone, so you just get initial reactions for now!
Ahem, to follow up on this. There's a recurring theme here where Gilgamesh gets into a subjective argument, presents his side as fact, and dismisses opposing ideas as "well that's just your opinion!" and I find it funny as hell. Hence my funny tags!
 
Ahem, to follow up on this. There's a recurring theme here where Gilgamesh gets into a subjective argument, presents his side as fact, and dismisses opposing ideas as "well that's just your opinion!" and I find it funny as hell. Hence my funny tags!
No, I state quite clearly the parts of my argument that are opinion and which are fact. I never claim they're all 100% fact. When I DO claim fact, I use example and proof of fact as well. So I will continue to take your funny tags as backing me up :)
 
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