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WOW is now free to level 20. Even though that's a joke since Cataclysm. I remember when you actually had to work for level 10, now you can sleep to level 50.

Also, anyone who has bought WOW classic now has BC completely free.

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/...e-until-level-20-core-games-drop-in-price.ars

They are hemorrhaging users at a record pace thanks to Cata turning everything into easy mode. They care-beared themselves into irrelevance.

Dave said:

They are hemorrhaging users at a record pace thanks to Cata turning everything into easy mode. They care-beared themselves into irrelevance.

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This may have been intentional so their user base would go to the new game. Regardless, it's been free to level 20 for ages.

It's been free for 14 days for ages, with a level 20 cap. The lack of a time limit to get there is new.
Added at: 14:29
Also, there are no other trial restrictions anymore, from what I understand. You can do the same things a paying customer can.
Added at: 14:30
And there's the "Free Burning Crusade" for all returners who only ever bought classic. That describes me, and I'll probably buy a month just to try it out. I never liked WOW vanilla enough to buy expansions, but I'll take it for free.

if i remember well, burning crusade was quite fun. It's after BC that it all went to shit.

Burning Crusade was truly the best xpac thus far. Wrath was fine till after Ulduar. Cataclysm, in my opinion failed as an xpac but succeeded in preparing the old world for this next upcoming Xpac. I have really high hopes for whatever it may be, because all the pieces are in place.

Stopped playing it all together after they care-beared themselves after Sunwell. Hardcore raiding was where it was at.

BBB 4 Life! 82nd placed raid guild! YEAAAH

fade said:

WOW is now free to level 20. Even though that's a joke since Cataclysm. I remember when you actually had to work for level 10, now you can sleep to level 50.

Also, anyone who has bought WOW classic now has BC completely free.

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/...e-until-level-20-core-games-drop-in-price.ars

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Heh. I can see them eventually move to F2P.

IMO I think Cataclysm is the turning point for WoW. It is going downhill.

Dave said:

They are hemorrhaging users at a record pace thanks to Cata turning everything into easy mode. They care-beared themselves into irrelevance.

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I disagree. The loss of subscribers was due to other factors, not the ease of the game. Cataclysm was actually more difficult then WOTLK, with more challenging heroics and such, and Ragnaros is the most challenging raid boss they have made in years, with only a few notable guilds having taken him down. 1-60 was always easy, even before the revamp, so that can't be it either.

The issue comes down to lack of content focus, breakdown of community due to guild levels making smaller groups more difficult, to much zone spread, and a lot of recycling, which is obviously done because they spent so much time on the old world revamps. I think once we move back out to a real "continent" that is new, unique, and large, the interest will come back a bit. Once the game gets a bit easier, the "wrath babies" as people like to call them will also return. Many people I speak with have made it clear they don't like the play unless they have more viable items to collect through heroics, something that was impossible till recently.

Not to say the game will ever have the following it did before, the fact is the game is getting old, but I wouldn't take the loss of subscribers as signs of a sinking ship, more a ship that is hitting rough waters and will likely lose a lot of passengers until it gets back in the clear. We can start worrying when they get below 1 million, and even then I would probably still play, since I played EverQuest with only half that many people.

I played off and on for the last few years, and I have to agree with Dave. Though I suppose it depends on what part of the game you're talking about. I'm talking about the game from a new character perspective. I remember back in 06 it wasn't unusual to die before level 10, especially solo. Each release made low levels easier, and then with Cataclysm, I kid you not, I actually thought something was wrong it had gotten so easy. I think that the developers just finally embraced the idea that the game is just about the last levels to most players--an idea I never liked. I enjoyed reading the quest stories, and actually finding out what happened. But, unfortunately the end game crowd won, so no one groups at low level, so they made it so anyone could solo 1-60 in their sleep to cater. It certainly lost me, because I couldn't care less about gaming the AH for that purple that gives you 1% more resistance or whatever. I wasn't in it for the numbers, I was in it for the experience and the story. When they axed those, they axed me.

I'm sorry, I don't follow you. Axed the story? Pardon? WoW is the ONLY MMO with a shred of decent story. Cataclysm sent that into overdrive with old storylines getting new life and progression. You've NEVER needed to group at the lower levels to get story and most instances never had ANY storyline to begin with. Now with the x-server LFG que, you can start grouping within 10-15 minutes at ANY level for almost ANY instance.

Granted, I agree that you can solo from 1-60 in your sleep but that's not stopping you in anyway from experiencing the storyline the game has to offer. I'd say now, MORE than ever, there is more story and experience to be had for a casual player.

I didn't say they axed the story. I said they axed the focus on the story, and the fantasy immersion experience. You of course can choose to do all of these things. If you country roads, you still have the option of driving 45 MPH on the interstate, too. The focus doesn't feel like the story, the focus feels like it's on getting through the levels as quickly as possible and the end game. I'm not presenting my argument as a need, but a want and an opinion.

fade said:

I didn't say they axed the story. I said they axed the focus on the story, and the fantasy immersion experience. You of course can choose to do all of these things. If you country roads, you still have the option of driving 45 MPH on the interstate, too. The focus doesn't feel like the story, the focus feels like it's on getting through the levels as quickly as possible and the end game. I'm not presenting my argument as a need, but a want and an opinion.

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Again? Really?

I loved BC. Shit was hard. I kind of miss the difficulty of BC heroics too, but only because I always had at least 2 friends to do them with. I hate how faceroll stuff is now, but at the same time, I don't like things being hard when it's hit or miss whether or not I am grouping with idiots.

Also, to be completely honest, I don't think most of the drive of WoW itself has changed, there are changes I like(dwarf shamans yay!) and changes I hate with a passion (10 and 25 man being "the same", classes getting homogenized more and more because of whiners who hate being different, Tauren priests lololol). I think it's just the fact that I have been playing and raiding in this game since launch and I really want some new scenery.Also, Heroic Rag can suck 10 dicks.

Again really what? I'm hardly alone in thinking that the game was incredibly simplified in the last expansion, and I'm hardly alone in thinking that the focus for most players these days is on rushing through to the endgame. I could probably google for 50 concurring webpages in less than 5 minutes. This is my opinion, and the opinion of many others. I'm not sure what I'm doing "again" other than having my own opinion, and making it clear that it's just that.

fade said:

I didn't say they axed the story. I said they axed the focus on the story, and the fantasy immersion experience. You of course can choose to do all of these things. If you country roads, you still have the option of driving 45 MPH on the interstate, too. The focus doesn't feel like the story, the focus feels like it's on getting through the levels as quickly as possible and the end game. I'm not presenting my argument as a need, but a want and an opinion.

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Sorry Fade, but that seems more like a personal issue. If one goes into the game expecting to just grind to the end, yes they may not get the story, but if you go in with the intention of following each zones story, then you will. The overall zone stories are much more involved then when the game first came out, with you often following long arcs that plot out with pretty intense conclusions.-

A good example is Stonetalon, which before was a rather random jumble of quests, but now involved me taking part in the safety of a bomb, stopping the invasion of Alliance into the region, flying said bomb in a balloon while gnomes try to knock me out of it, taking part in a betrayal, and ending with me accidently leading to the blowing up of a druid school, which left a massive crater. Places like Eastern Plaguelands involve me following a caravan, picking up members to join us on the trip, and taking part in their various trials, leading to one getting kidnapped and all the people I gathered before helping me save him. It was very satisfying.

As for stuff being easy, that's just part of the design for leveling, as most people who play WoW are solo players, and want to be able to feel powerful while alone. Even the end game is design for solo play to be pretty easy. If you want group play you have to go into dungeons.

But Scythe, with the stuff they have on the UI now, I don't even bother reading the text. I don't have to!! In fact, until you get to the end game stuff you really don't have to know much of anything.

So while I get your point about really hard end game stuff, unless you are there the game is stupid easy and just a drag now. Hell, to win the end game you have to raid spam over and over and that gets old, too.

This is kind of my point, too. Again Scythe, I agree that you can do it. I think you guys are misinterpreting what I'm saying for saying that you can't do it. I know you can, but the focus has certainly been pulled away from it. That was my country road analogy. Another example might be an office that offers paper memo print outs to the old farts despite that the office has moved digital. Sure you can do it, but the office is clearly focused on digital. Is it personal? Of course it is, since it's opinion. But then, it's not all that engaging to be the one odd guy going, come on guys, I'm trying to read the story here.

The entire leveling process is focused on storyline arcs. I don't think you really played Cataclysm at all if you don't realize that. Every single zone during the level process now has an arching and epic storyline feel that's building up to the end game.

I won't argue that it's not easy, but saying the focus to the story isn't there is not an opinion, it's wrong.

ScytheRexx said:

Sorry Fade, but that seems more like a personal issue. If one goes into the game expecting to just grind to the end, yes they may not get the story, but if you go in with the intention of following each zones story, then you will. The overall zone stories are much more involved then when the game first came out, with you often following long arcs that plot out with pretty intense conclusions.-

A good example is Stonetalon, which before was a rather random jumble of quests, but now involved me taking part in the safety of a bomb, stopping the invasion of Alliance into the region, flying said bomb in a balloon while gnomes try to knock me out of it, taking part in a betrayal, and ending with me accidently leading to the blowing up of a druid school, which left a massive crater. Places like Eastern Plaguelands involve me following a caravan, picking up members to join us on the trip, and taking part in their various trials, leading to one getting kidnapped and all the people I gathered before helping me save him. It was very satisfying.

As for stuff being easy, that's just part of the design for leveling, as most people who play WoW are solo players, and want to be able to feel powerful while alone. Even the end game is design for solo play to be pretty easy. If you want group play you have to go into dungeons.

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Y U USE DARK TEXT?

Well, I disagree. I don't think mere presence qualifies as "focus". That's kind of what I've been saying here. Focus means, well, focus. Like Dave said, they've made it not only so that you can simply pay attention to the goals, but that stuff is actually in your face, and the prominent feature, and it goes hand in hand with new easy leveling. This is stuff that people used to pay for mods for so that they could skip past the text, but now it seems like the game emphasizes that. If it doesn't distract you like it does me, then your opinion may be different, and you may feel that the developers did not focus on level attainment over story. Again, not saying that the story isn't there--I don't know how else to make that clear.

Shegokigo said:

The entire leveling process is focused on storyline arcs. I don't think you really played Cataclysm at all if you don't realize that. Every single zone during the level process now has an arching and epic storyline feel that's building up to the end game.

I won't argue that it's not easy, but saying the focus to the story isn't there is not an opinion, it's wrong.

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The only thing anyone needs to know... is John J. Keeshan!
"AHHHHHHHHHHHH! AHHHHHHHHH!!!"

But Scythe, with the stuff they have on the UI now, I don't even bother reading the text. I don't have to!! In fact, until you get to the end game stuff you really don't have to know much of anything.

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So? I never understood this arguement. That is still a choice you make on your end, and is not the fault of the game per sa.

I was playing Just Cause 2 yesterday, I didn't have to watch the cutscenes, I can skip them all. I mean it does not tell me anything the UI won't give me for my missions, so why watch them? I just finished watching Cowboys Versus Aliens, but why? I can get the jist of the storyline by reading it on Wikipedia, so why waste time watching the movie? Maybe if I didn't want to see the movie in the first place, yes, I would, but I wanted to see the movie. I made that choice, I watch them.

A game that has to force you to do something (like read quest text just to understand where to go) in order to make you listen to the story is doing it wrong. Mass Effect 2, compared to the first one, has a lot of missions where they basically hold your hand, but it didn't stop me from enjoying the hell out of the storyline just because they put a little marker of where to go on the map rather then in a cryptic text, or make me roll around on a planet in the Mako just to find some random area or artifact.

I think you guys are misinterpreting what I'm saying for saying that you can't do it. I know you can, but the focus has certainly been pulled away from it.

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Not exactly. You are implying that Blizzard took the focus of the game away from storylines. However, if you play Cataclysm you will find they did the exact opposite. Each zone has a long drawn out storyline focus, rather then the original game, which focused more on busy quests and random quest hubs with the longest story arc often only being 4-5 quests.

Your issue, and where I think you need to point your problem, is purely immersion. Yes, the game is not as immersive as it used to be, because the game holds your hand a lot when it comes to quests and will not give you a cryptic message for you to wander around in the forest for an hour. The UI gives you more information, the flow of quests in more straight forward. That is something I can totally agree with you about, but they didn't remove the focus on story, and even improved the story far over what we used to have, even when they didn't really need to do it. Immersion does not equal focus on story, they are two different beasts. While the game lost immersion as it has become more about a sort of "theme park" experience, it didn't loss story focus, and actually has been making strives to be more story focused.

Like in the instance of Dave, whether you choose to take part in those stories or click through them as fast as possible to level, is your own choice, and not the fault of the game. I always read the quest text and stay around for the cutscenes, because I like the stories.

I have to say that WoW DOES have tons of story that is not much an issue.

I do believe that Guild Level pretty much kill small guild. It just leave the a bad taste in my mouth.

I have to agree, if you think WoW lost its story element in Cata, you aren't actually playing WoW. Even the new legendary has a giant fucking storyline quest arc that ends in a huge epic thing in Orgrimmar (or Stormwind if you're lame) when you get it. (Fuck you Val'anyr, why couldn't you be that awesome) The *only* reason to rush, rush, rush to the end really is if that is your driving focus. If you are a story person, and not an OMFG I MUST GET TO THE END AND GRIND PVP FOREVER!!!one!!! then odds are, you aren't going to skip the quest text. IF YOU LIKE STORY, THERE IS NO REASON TO RUSH THROUGH AND NOT READ QUEST TEXT. You can use the "Hey, you can but no one else does" argument all you want, but the point is.... Blizzard does seem to actually care that the story is there for people who want it. Why does it matter if 90% of people don't read quest text? Who cares if you don't need to read quest text to get your shit done? Just because it is easy to skip it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

That said, most MMOs have their really grindy elements, plus WoW has been out forever now as far as MMOs go, of course it's starting to get stale.

Dei said:

You can use the "Hey, you can but no one else does" argument all you want, but the point is.... Blizzard does seem to actually care that the story is there for people who want it. Why does it matter if 90% of people don't read quest text? Who cares if you don't need to read quest text to get your shit done? Just because it is easy to skip it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

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You guys are still arguing against something I've agreed with you about explicitly several times now and some things I haven't said at all. I don't know how many more times I can explicitly acknowledge the physical presence of the story elements. It's how I feel the game drives me in the new version. I don't know how else to say it. It has nothing to do with what 90% of people do, it has to do with how I feel Blizzard has responded to that 90%. I could care less how most people play. Well, unless I want to group. It's the actual stuff on the screen. I respect that you guys don't agree. If I'm trying to read a book, and there's a giant green arrow pointing to the next page, and red text summing up the page, well... Sure, I can ignore that but it's still going to feel to me like I'm being shepherded toward that stuff. Blizzard is of course perfectly within their rights to respond to the subscriber majority, and I'm perfectly free to express discontent with it.

Again, if you don't find that the new version drives you that way, I'm happy for you. Different opinions are beautiful things.

fade said:

You guys are still arguing against something I've agreed with you about explicitly several times now and some things I haven't said at all. I don't know how many more times I can explicitly acknowledge the physical presence of the story elements. It's how I feel the game drives me in the new version. I don't know how else to say it. It has nothing to do with what 90% of people do, it has to do with how I feel Blizzard has responded to that 90%. I could care less how most people play. Well, unless I want to group. It's the actual stuff on the screen. I respect that you guys don't agree. If I'm trying to read a book, and there's a giant green arrow pointing to the next page, and red text summing up the page, well... Sure, I can ignore that but it's still going to feel to me like I'm being shepherded toward that stuff. Blizzard is of course perfectly within their rights to respond to the subscriber majority, and I'm perfectly free to express discontent with it.

Again, if you don't find that the new version drives you that way, I'm happy for you. Different opinions are beautiful things.

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I guess I am on the camp of I have no clue what you are talking about.

are you saying that Blizzard's method of trying to "heard" people to end game is what drives you away?
The changes to raid system?
the loot system?
the guild system?

I like small guild, new system doesn't promote that (at least don't get the benefit of it) also changing guild have harsh consequences (lose guild xp). That was my biggest turn off really.
They did make changes on finding group easier and dungeon run faster, but I did notice that Blizzard seems to "push" players toward the end game more than all that work.

Chibibar said:

I like small guild, new system doesn't promote that (at least don't get the benefit of it) also changing guild have harsh consequences (lose guild xp). That was my biggest turn off really.

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That's almost exactly what Fade is saying, except with leveling instead of guilds. The new system pushes people towards getting to the level cap as soon as possible. It's not that there aren't great story lines, just like you can still have small guilds, it's just not the focus anymore. You feel rushed to do the quests as quick as possible.

Shakey said:

You feel rushed to do the quests as quick as possible.

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I don't really feel that unless I have on my heirlooms. I recently made a new character from scratch, no money, no anything, on another server and leveled, and it actually is rather slow and steady, giving you a lot of time to do all the quests and such. Is it a bit faster then the old game? Yes, but that is because the leveling flow is more focused, something that was needed. If I wanted to wander around aimlessly again like I did in vanilla, I would just go to the local park.

If I'm trying to read a book, and there's a giant green arrow pointing to the next page, and red text summing up the page, well... Sure, I can ignore that but it's still going to feel to me like I'm being shepherded toward that stuff.

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You really are losing me with your reasoning. Maybe we just look at it so differently, but a book by nature is always going to have a series of pages that can not be changed. It will always be shepherding you from beginning to end. You don't need a big arrow pointing at the next page, because books by nature are going to be a story in successive chapters telling a pretty rigid narrative.

Cataclysm, actually, makes WoW more like an interactive book now then it was in the past. In the past most zones had little narrative direction, and it never told you what to read next in the "trilogy". Cataclysm basically tells you "this zone is page 1" and then "this zone is page 2" and keeps going, pushing you through a character narrative as if you were taking part in a longer series of events.

All Blizzard did was helped you know the pages, because WoW is a game, and it has to have a way to inform you what quest flow you will be taking part, and then let you decide if you want to continue it or go take up a different spinoff (another questing zone). If it was not overt, you go back to the wandering dealie again, the whole reason they did the revamp being to remove that "downtime" and make the quests more enjoyable.

All I can gather from this now, is that you don't like it when the game is to "flash" and "obvious" when it is leading you down a path, and if that is the case it simply goes back to what I said earlier, your problem is immersion. You WANT to get lost in the world and forget you are playing a game, and yes, that is something that was lost in the changes for Cataclysm.

Why in gods name would I spend all the time it takes to get through the story doing boring and irritating grinding when I could just read WoW wiki. I've never understood the whole story element of an MMO. I get it for other games. Not for an MMO.

Because you'd be experincing the story first hand vs reading some text?

It can be extremely enveloping and rewarding to stand next to a character you'd normally only read about, taking on creatures and villains that are brought to life in a way you may have never imagined. It's world's different than reading about it in a wiki.

I dunno, it's not particularly immersive when you are standing in line with 5 other guys who are all being told "Hark hero, you and only you can go find the precious orb of zenthron, a priceless and unique artifact that was stolen from our village by villainous goblins" then I run over there and there are another 20 dudes in line all sitting and waiting until the chest repops.

Shegokigo said:

Because you'd be experincing the story first hand vs reading some text?

It can be extremely enveloping and rewarding to stand next to a character you'd normally only read about, taking on creatures and villains that are brought to life in a way you may have never imagined. It's world's different than reading about it in a wiki.

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I think that is what KOTRO is trying to do. Instead of reading, it is fully voiced.

Now Necronic, there are some old school grind type MMO (Lineage come to mind) where there is LITTLE story if any. Ragnarok online is another. There are stuff that people just hunt, kill, loot, level that is pretty much the life.
Added at: 17:11

Necronic said:

I dunno, it's not particularly immersive when you are standing in line with 5 other guys who are all being told "Hark hero, you and only you can go find the precious orb of zenthron, a priceless and unique artifact that was stolen from our village by villainous goblins" then I run over there and there are another 20 dudes in line all sitting and waiting until the chest repops.

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I can understand that. The idea that most dev is trying to do is make "you" the important part of the story.

It is much harder to make it more interactive.

I guess you could have a "timed" quest like

1st person shows up "Help! The goblin stole my wife's necklace can you get it for me?" "sure!" (timers starts 20 minutes or completion) if a 2nd hero arrives, "Ahoy hero!,<player name> just went over to retrieve the necklace from a goblin, wanna help him/her? (adjust accordingly) "sure" <auto party and difficulty increase by 1> repeat upto 5 members and then reset.

or if no one returns after 20 minutes then the npc will go "Hark Hero! I send a party to retrieve my wife's necklace, but they haven't return can you help? "

such coding can be tedious but fun for the players. I don't think we'll see this level of MMO yet (unless KOTOR does this)

I stopped playing WoW because the end-game raid-grind reminded me a little too much of later Classic raids. Punishingly hard, giant time-sink, requires precisely timed sequence of player actions much of the time.

I get that a lot of hardcore folks like that, but for me, I liked BC/Wrath where they managed to balance both the huge (relative to level/raid size) boss health and actual encounter mechanics. Now it just feels like they've swung too hard back into the mechanics direction.

Love the pre-raid content now, though. Completely contrary to Fade, I actually felt invested in the story in individual zones now.

Chibibar said:

I can understand that. The idea that most dev is trying to do is make "you" the important part of the story.

It is much harder to make it more interactive.

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The best way to do that is to allow the players to make the stories/content. By creating a world that is actually intereactive and not just a punching bag you can create immersion. The one time I ever experienced that in WoW was when we (a horde guild) discovered the Book of Lore exploit and spent weeks repeatedly killing the PvP reward dudes and then finally killing the head horde guy.

Anyways there's two ways you can do that. First, and possibly easiest, is to have deus-ex GM involvement. Have GM's spawn stuff and create live events, constantly. The second way is requires a 'from the ground up' design that requires a lot more consequence driven gaming (as in there is a consequence to failing.) Without a consequence to failure there is only one direction the player story can go, it's simply a matter of speed.

I'm guessing you haven't played Cataclysm or even Wrath then. Your questing in WoW now adversely affects the entire world around you. Towns spring up in places you libereated, creatures are defeated and the area around it springs with new life/spawns, you progress a storyline with characters who have purpose and help them reach their goals past just returning to them for a reward.

GM involvement wasn't needed and consequence to failure is never a good choice in an MMO. I think you should see where the game is now before saying what it doesn't have.

EvE vs WoW, round XXXIII

I know you're not trying to do EvE vs WoW in a storyline based conversation. That's just ridiculously one-sided.

It's always been pretty obvious to me that Necronic loves open-MMO games where the players have nearly 100% control, like EvE. I am a bit confused why he likes to bring it up so much in these threads, they are very different type of games. EvE is less a story and more a breathing virtual society.

WoW is a different type of game designed for a different type of audience. I never could get into EvE because I just don't have the energy to "create" my own experience. I want a cool experience put down in front of me that I can follow, and that is one of the reasons I enjoy WoW, and one of the reasons I still love Single Player games.

There is nothing wrong with enjoying one style of game over the other, which is why I avoid getting deep into "game versus game" discussions, it is such a subjective thing where one style is the holy grail to one person, but just boring to another.

I agree, the problem here is he's bringing it up in a Storyline conversation, of which EvE has next to nothing. I'm not sure what his point was there.

No, no, he didn't say anything specifically about EvE. I was just joking with it because I can totally see this thread heading in that direction from this point about player-created experiences.

First off:

I'm guessing you haven't played Cataclysm or even Wrath then. Your questing in WoW now adversely affects the entire world around you. Towns spring up in places you libereated, creatures are defeated and the area around it springs with new life/spawns, you progress a storyline with characters who have purpose and help them reach their goals past just returning to them for a reward.

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I haven't and that's pretty cool/step in the right direction. Darkfall was trying for something like that as well but from what I understand it didn't turn out well.

-----------

Anyways, really I was just talking about player created story vs built in story. EvE does have that (somewhat), but the ones that came to my mind were:

Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup - There is no story whatsoever in the game, but when you die your character is deleted. This leads to really intense/high consequence games, which in turn leads to really fascinating stories on userboards from players about what their dudes went through. To this day I still remember a Minatour character I had.

Dwarf Fortress - Another zero built in story game, but the way a game evolves over time (as well as the intense detail and the inability to recover losses) leads to REALLY cool stories of games played (there's a whole subforum for them on the Bay12 games website.)

Jagged Alliance - I don't have the imagination for this but my brother invents the most amazing stories for his teams.

I've always felt that art imitates life to a degree, and the most interesting stories you can get are the ones that involve the dynamic reactions of humans to a dynamic world (aka "you couldn't make this shit up if you tried.") For that reason a player made story will always be more fascinating to me than a built in story (consider a good D&D game vs a game of Baldur's gate, awesome as it is.)

Moreover, when you are creating the story in this dynamic/human way, you do so through your character, or more truly, your avatar. You become more attached to it as you interact through it, as opposed to watching a movie through its eyes.

It's true that that's one of the reasons I like EvE, but really it's why I love ANY game (so to be clear this really isn't about pimping EvE). Give me a true virtual world. Give me a true interactive experience. I can watch a movie without a laptop. I can read a book on a desert island. What I want is the possibilities hinted at in otherland, neuromancer, snowcrash, or Ender's adventure with the Giant's Drink. I want the chance to really FEEL like a warrior exploring a strange, and yes, scary world. I want to feel amazement at the world. I want to feel sorrow at my losses. I want to feel pride in my achievements. I want to feel fear in the threats presented to me. I want to feel shame for my ignobility. I want to laugh I want to cry I want to hold I want to touch I want to be touched I want to .....

ok I am really sorry for this post. Anyways I just like player created stories better and I think that's the real future of MMOs.

Edit: Just to be clear though for single player games I do still LOVE story driven games, because they can be devoted to a single player they can become much more immersive.

All the games you listed have stories that people wrote themselves about their own characters and WoW has about 10,000,00 fan pages with stories jus tlike that. I'm still lost to your point.

But the stories people write themselves in the other games, they go through unique experiences which defines the story. In WoW there really aren't that many unique experiences.

Edit: Also I totally appreciate how completely stupid it is for me to argue whether or not you should enjoy something. So if you like it, more power to you. But I do think that this style of design is inherently flawed and won't be able to maintain players indefinitely.

There are couple of ways of doing it BUT it is going to be hard on the devs cause there will require MUCH back end work.

WoW do have "phase" where players eventually unlock something after X amount of completion, but to have it go both way would mean that if you have multiple servers, then each server may have a different story.

The only way to really pull this off is to have a single server. EVE does this. It is a single server and thus if players "change" the story it effect everyone. It is much hard to implement it on WoW scale.

Individual quest would be hard to code to "check" if a player is currently working on it then you either have to code it to join the player, have their own quest, or wait in queue (heaven forbid)

a truly open interactive world would be hard. Even with player made quest, after the 1st person then what? all done? then late comer won't have anything to do or people don't make low level stuff.

Necronic said:

But the stories people write themselves in the other games, they go through unique experiences which defines the story. In WoW there really aren't that many unique experiences.

Edit: Also I totally appreciate how completely stupid it is for me to argue whether or not you should enjoy something. So if you like it, more power to you. But I do think that this style of design is inherently flawed and won't be able to maintain players indefinitely.

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Then I don't believe for a second you've read a single fanpage.

People create entire lineage storylines of multiple generations of their exploits.

As for unique experiences? Like what? They went and found an abandoned freighter/mining area, were assaulted by enemy ships and lived to tell about it? Or bought and sold a franchise etc?

Replace freighter with rare spawn npc and enemy ships by enemy faction player and again, it's the same thing.

The way you were making it out to be was that players created content and it appeared in the game and shaped the world. That won't happen. Just because WoW has a "focus" doesn't mean that people don't make their own unique experiences all over.

HOWEVER: I will agree that I had more fun in the experiences I created with my guild mates over the years in Ultima Online than I ever had in WoW because it was literally a Fantasy Sandbox. So I know what you're trying to say, but by saying that WoW doesn't give that it's players, is just your lack of knowledge of what the WoW game and community are really about.

Then I don't believe for a second you've read a single fanpage.

People create entire lineage storylines of multiple generations of their exploits.

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But these fan pages seem like they aren't based on what actually occurs in game, they are RPing their dudes. RP isn't what I am talking about. RP is where you invent the story within some confines of given lore. What I am interested in is when the playing of the game creates the structure for the story itself.

.... ok sure in the Dwarf Fortress example people RP to add elements to the details that are given, to flush out a full story, but the structure of the story is given in the dynamic and unique experience that occurs in the game play.

I know it's subtly but it's the difference between growing freely within a room (WoW RP) or growing onto a unique structure (Game experience based RP).

WoW do have "phase" where players eventually unlock something after X amount of completion, but to have it go both way would mean that if you have multiple servers, then each server may have a different story
The only way to really pull this off is to have a single server

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I used to think that but I'm not convinced that it's true. On your specific example, why can't the different servers have different stories?

What's always bugged me though is size, but I don't think you need one server for that. It definitely helps if there is a LARGE amount of people on a server though. The more people you have the more you can have heroes or celebrities, which is an interesenting result of larger servers.

Also, if there is something you are fighting for, a larger server creates a society which then has a power-structure, and nothing tells a more interesting story than people jockeying for power.

But there has to be a real point to the power. I mean....why play king of the hill when at the end of the day I could have been drinking a beer? Now if there was a bunch of beer on the top of the hill.......well then for that I would definitely push my brother over.

Necronic said:

I used to think that but I'm not convinced that it's true. On your specific example, why can't the different servers have different stories?

What's always bugged me though is size, but I don't think you need one server for that. It definitely helps if there is a LARGE amount of people on a server though. The more people you have the more you can have heroes or celebrities, which is an interesenting result of larger servers.

Also, if there is something you are fighting for, a larger server creates a society which then has a power-structure, and nothing tells a more interesting story than people jockeying for power.

But there has to be a real point to the power. I mean....why play king of the hill when at the end of the day I could have been drinking a beer? Now if there was a bunch of beer on the top of the hill.......well then for that I would definitely push my brother over.

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Why? Can you imagine trying to write different path for EACH server? it would be a patching nightmare.

(totally made up)
What if one server somehow it was possible to kill the King and the son in advance and thus no more alliance (or broken up) while on another server they save the king (like you suppose to) the path will be differnt

What if the players decides NOT to kill the Liche King, while the other server did. Now what? do they advance?

The thing is that WoW has a set of stories to tell and your character is the "central" figure of it to unfold the story. If you make it choose your own adventure (i.e. alternate ending), then expansion would be VERY hard to produce since they have to compensate different avenue players will go.

As a GM, I learn this early that no matter how much preparation (story wise) players will detour it if they can and that is with 6-8 players can you imagine with MILLIONS?!?!

fade said:

I didn't say they axed the story. I said they axed the focus on the story, and the fantasy immersion experience. You of course can choose to do all of these things. If you country roads, you still have the option of driving 45 MPH on the interstate, too. The focus doesn't feel like the story, the focus feels like it's on getting through the levels as quickly as possible and the end game. I'm not presenting my argument as a need, but a want and an opinion.

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I disagree. I enjoy the Deathknight initial experience, along with the Goblin and Worgen starter zones. After those you're right, the story just dies into grinding that's so dumbed down and shepherded the dev's might as well just flip a switch and instantly make you 85.

I enjoyed the pvp aspect of the game far more for this reason, but pvp in WoW is a joke unless you have the top tier pvp gear. I'd rather just play TF2 and skip the timesink of grinding so I can just enjoy pvp on a even playing field.

Well, I put my money where my mouth was. I ponied up 15 bucks for a month, and I'm bored after 2 hours. I see 7 cups of sweet delicious coffee with tiny wings on them flying away... I still feel like after Cataclysm, I'm being shoved through levels 1-10. You level up so fast now, that it's almost meaningless. That's the feeling I was getting at. Yeah, I know, I could go as slowly as I like, but there's no motivation for that. Maybe I'll try the others expansions at some point. I would like to see environment changes like Shegokigo describes. The low levels still aren't very fun, and still feel like they're being treated as stepping stones rather than part of the game. I realize that's what the community wants, and that's why Blizzard did it, but that still doesn't change my opinion of it.

Well there's nothingelse I can say at this point then, I will say however, you have my respect for going back and actually trying though. Sorry it didn't recapture you the way it did for me.

Mathias said:

I disagree. I enjoy the Deathknight initial experience, along with the Goblin and Worgen starter zones. After those you're right, the story just dies into grinding that's so dumbed down and shepherded the dev's might as well just flip a switch and instantly make you 85.

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I feel this is where SWTOR's strength is going to come in over WoW, with how heavily story-involved it appears to be.

It might be fun to play with some of you guys though. I'm no power-player though. (That's actually another thing I can't stand about WoW. The "LAWL u NEWB" crowd. Sorry I didn't spend 300 hours giving myself maximum charisma or gearing up for that extra 0.001% DPS.)

Quotemander Prime said:

I feel this is where SWTOR's strength is going to come in over WoW, with how heavily story-involved it appears to be.

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The big fear I have with this is how mandatory they are going to have it.

A good example is in WoW, there are story cutscenes in certain areas or dungeons, and due to the issues with people not wanting to wait for the story to play out ever time, they had to add "skip" dialogues. I am curious how they are going to handle this for players that have been playing awhile, the ones that will be on another alt that don't care what the people are saying. Are they going to add a skip ability and ruin it for the newbie? Or at they going to force everyone to go through it each time, thus pissing off those tired of it? It's not an easy job.

Whatever they do I hope they can pull it off.

ScytheRexx said:

The big fear I have with this is how mandatory they are going to have it.

A good example is in WoW, there are story cutscenes in certain areas or dungeons, and due to the issues with people not wanting to wait for the story to play out ever time, they had to add "skip" dialogues. I am curious how they are going to handle this for players that have been playing awhile, the ones that will be on another alt that don't care what the people are saying. Are they going to add a skip ability and ruin it for the newbie? Or at they going to force everyone to go through it each time, thus pissing off those tired of it? It's not an easy job.

Whatever they do I hope they can pull it off.

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Don't skip calls need to be unanimous?

AshburnerX said:

Don't skip calls need to be unanimous?

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GuildWars had skip votes for cutscenes, and L4D had skip votes for the stat screens IIRC. There were a ew people in GW that got antsy when someone wanted to watch the cutscene but it was not that big of a problem.

AshburnerX said:

Don't skip calls need to be unanimous?

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Hopefully then it's also anonymous. The person who decides he wants to watch the cutscenes when the rest of his party want to skip is not going to be in that group very long if they find out who he is, more so if the mission will involve further cutscenes.

Is it wrong that right now I am having more fun playing on a free vanilla private server with 3-4k people on it than I am in my FL guild real toon? Been plying since right before vanilla launch, but right now..it a...meh...experience. Shit doesnt feel like a gaming accomplishment now, and it did back in Valinna and BC, especially. I would say rose tinted glasses and what not...but playing on the old "shit terrible" vanilla patch is so much more fun.

Well, Mathias, I started a Death Knight. You're right. I totally agree, the death knight origin story is a vast improvement. What you do makes a difference, and the world isn't static. Buuuuuuttttt, then the origin area ends, and it's same old, same old.

fade said:

Well, Mathias, I started a Death Knight. You're right. I totally agree, the death knight origin story is a vast improvement. What you do makes a difference, and the world isn't static. Buuuuuuttttt, then the origin area ends, and it's same old, same old.

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I actually deleted my deathknights about three times just to replay the origin portion before grinding to about level 62 before quitting and just defaulting to my original character. To this day, I only have a single character that's level 85.

fade said:

Well, Mathias, I started a Death Knight. You're right. I totally agree, the death knight origin story is a vast improvement. What you do makes a difference, and the world isn't static. Buuuuuuttttt, then the origin area ends, and it's same old, same old.

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Because at the end of the Death Knight zone you're dumped into old Burning Crusade content. If you get to level 70+ the WotLK zones have better stories and phasing elements to them, and the 80+ Cataclysm zones have much, much more. It doesn't change the fact that the game is built entirely around the endgame stuff, but there is story in the questing.

The WOTLK content was cool. I liked how the quests made it feel like your character was Arthas's nemesis (ignoring that everyone else is getting the same scenes and how you'll need 20 other people to fight him much, much later). Way better than how they handled Illidan as this distant foe you never interacted with.

Quotemander Prime said:

The WOTLK content was cool. I liked how the quests made it feel like your character was Arthas's nemesis (ignoring that everyone else is getting the same scenes and how you'll need 20 other people to fight him much, much later). Way better than how they handled Illidan as this distant foe you never interacted with.

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I don't know if Arthas really considered you a nemesis, considering that he "Let you live, THIS TIME" about 15 times.

If you completed all the content, you'd have known that he was testing you with stronger and stronger enemies to make your strength grow to the point he could slay you and raise you as his most powerful lieutenants.

I did complete all the content, I just found it hilarious. (and it backfired) I think that would be more Protege than Nemesis.

Yeah, that shit got pretty ridiculous by the end of WotLK.