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WoW: Mists of Pandaria Beta

Mar 21, 2012#1

ScytheRexx

Mar 21, 2012#2

Shegokigo

Let's keep all the beta info in this thread as some won't want the spoiling.

Still waiting on my email....

Mar 21, 2012#3

ScytheRexx

Shegokigo said:
Still waiting on my email....

E-mails have not gone out yet, but it will be activated under your game list on Battle.net if you got in already. That is how I noticed it. If you didn't get in yet, they will be rolling out invites as they go, starting out based on account join date and annual pass sign-up date.

That is the only reason I got in so quickly, nice perk of having been playing since 2004 and signing up for the pass once it came out.

Mar 21, 2012#4

Dave

Guess what I just signed up for. Again. +Diablo III.

Mar 21, 2012#5

Hailey Knight

I like how WoW is in the key position on Scythe's desktop.

I'd be disappointed if it was anything else, of course.

Mar 21, 2012#6

Shegokigo

ScytheRexx said:
E-mails have not gone out yet, but it will be activated under your game list on Battle.net if you got in already. That is how I noticed it. If you didn't get in yet, they will be rolling out invites as they go, starting out based on account join date and annual pass sign-up date.

That is the only reason I got in so quickly, nice perk of having been playing since 2004 and signing up for the pass once it came out.

Same here, 2004 and Annual pass during Blizzcon. Only thing is I've quit for 2-5 months at a time once or twice.

Mar 21, 2012#7

ScytheRexx

They never said they take that into account, but they might, since they didn't really talk about all the variables. All I know is keep an eye on your account game list, it will appear there before an e-mail is ever sent out. If it's not there yet, give it a few days, they will be rolling out more invites as they go.

P.S. I am glad the beta server is not fully online yet, because downloading 17GB of data is going to take awhile. Sheeesh.

Mar 22, 2012#8

ScytheRexx

After noticing the download was rather slow, I decided to just go to sleep and play some before work this morning. A few things I learned.

They have a new character creation screen which has you pick the race and class before moving on to the customization, allowing you to now pick the customization using small little picture windows that show what the customization looks like. While it's not finished, I have to be honest that I don't really like it. Something felt nice about having my eyes focus on the character while I went through the toggled option using the arrows, while this new system seems to have me look all over the place for what I want. It's not bad, it just feels... more complicated then it really needed to be.

Ended up creating a Female Pandaren Monk to give the new model a check and also try the new class for the first time. The Pandaren Females have a great model and very clean animations to go with the already well done animations of the male model. The different attacks feel very solid and powerful, like I am really doing damage. I have to say it really shows the age of the old models and animation systems, as I went to try a monk of an older race an hour later and found the attacks to feel rather weak in comparison, at least visually. The downside I have found so far is that the female model has the same issue as the Worgen Female, in that the customization choices don't really change the face all that much other the fur patterns. I hope to see more customization options down the line because right now it feels a little weak, even compared to the males.

The Monk itself is extremely fun, feels like they took a rogue and paladin, smashing them together to create something that feels both agile and powerful. Energy is the main resource, while a lot of the larger attacks utilize Chi. Chi itself is very similar to Combo Points or Holy Power, but unlike the latter examples it does not require a target and does not expire after a certain amount of time. You can pretty much enter a fight with full Chi, unload some powerful attacks, and then use Energy based abilities to recharge the Chi. One thing this has over rogues, in my opinion, is that the Chi attacks don't also require Energy (at least, so far) which means I never run out of either resource if you switch up the attacks well, always feeling like you have more then you can spend.

I have not seen Pandaria yet, but the Wandering Isle is gorgeous. Many people complain about the Chinese themes not fitting in the WarCraft setting, but I find it to be an extremely huge breath of fresh air. The style is so unique but once you play it feels so cohesive with everything you have already experianced in the game. The textures are so crisp and the new graphical effects really bring it all together. Even water got a new change and now reflects player characters, though seems a little bugged right now.

Will be playing a lot more when I get home, if anyone has any questions.

Mar 22, 2012#9

ScytheRexx

Hey, Shego...

Mar 22, 2012#10

Telephius

That is what happens when you forge with Red Bull.

Mar 23, 2012#11

Frankie Williamson

The top one looks like Goldar from Power Rangers. Keep that pally tradition alive WoW.

Mar 23, 2012#12

Shegokigo

Still no invite as of today. Always tomorrow!

Thanks for the awesome link Scythe.

Mar 23, 2012#13

ScytheRexx

The set comes from gaining a silver medal on all the Challenge Dungeons, and has not stats, only being usable for transmog over whatever gear you have. Since they are part of challenge modes they did go a little crazy with the fancy designs. You should see the shaman shoulders...

As for the game, had a bit more time to play last night. It is really buggy right now, as expected. Some of the skills on the Monk were not working correctly, and it seems like they are working to make it possible to pick your "spec" at level 1, but have not finished the coding so it still requires you to be level 10 before you choose (the only reason we think this is changing is because it shows you the trees starting out at 1 and some of the skills in the trees can be gained lower then level 10).

The new talents are awesome. I know some people will disagree and prefer the long trees, but for the first time in awhile I found myself actually considering what I wanted to choose on my character transfers. When my warrior got to Bladestorm, Shockwave, and Dragon Roar I stood for 10 minutes considering all the use each skill could give me. (Ended up picking Dragon Roar since it's new and going to be pretty fun for testing out in PVP)

Lastly, one interesting tidbit for warlocks out there, but Blizzard is right now toying with the idea of making Demonology a TANKING spec. It's not listed as one right now and still is mostly DPS abilities, but there are skills and glyphs that make it possible to become a demon form high mitigation tank with taunts and heavy threat gain. Popular opinion theorizes that Blizzard is doing this to see how fans react to tanking abilities and, if so, will either replace Demonology as a tanking spec or split off all these talents to make a forth tanking spec (similar to how Druids now have four specs). That is the last nice thing about the talent changes. Since talents are so simple now, and specs are now the basis for all those extra spec based skills, they can easily add a forth spec to any of the classes without much work.

Mar 23, 2012#14

Dave

Yay! Another tank class to make the Warrior useless!

Mar 23, 2012#15

ScytheRexx

Dave said:
Yay! Another tank class to make the Warrior useless!

Warriors are getting some fun stuff this expansion and some mechanic changes. I am loving the increased mobility and things like Mass Spell Reflect. Dragon Roar will also be great for those times in dungeons you might need a breather, plus they have more self-healing options like I Second Wind (passive health regeneration chance on hit) or Impending Victory (active attack that replaces victory rush and can be used outside of the kill window).

I still think they need more to compete with some of the silly stuff Paladins and DKs are getting, but at least it's a start.

Mar 23, 2012#16

Dave

When I was writing my game I always asked myself, "Why would someone play this class?" I don't think Blizzard asks themselves that. There's no need for Warriors or Rogues in the game any more. Warriors were replaced by Paladins, DKs and now Warlocks who can tank just as well and have other abilities besides.

Rogues are just DPS, but they have to be fairly close. Most magic classes - and the DK again, go figure - can out-DPS the Rogue and have other abilities besides. Add in the fact that most Rogue abilities are best used when stealthy and you have a class that can't run in most instances because everyone wants to run through the thing so fast the Rogue hardly ever gets to do anything but run up and start hitting.

And since both of those are my favorite classes...

Mar 23, 2012#17

Gared

I hear ya Dave. I loved the hell out of my rogue back in WotLK - did quests up to level 10, then hit the BGs and didn't stop (even after I hit 80). He was a PvP god (even allowing for the fact that I'm not necessarily all that great at PvP), but whenever I tried to take him into a dungeon (dual spec, running whatever it was at the time that ElitestJerks said to run rogue PvE in, in PvE gear) it was like I wasn't even there. And try as I might, I've never managed to get a warrior past level 40. They just feel contrived to me - which is sad since they were there first.

Scythe, have you had a chance to play through the starting zone for the Pandarens, up to the point where you're forced to choose a faction, or has it been too buggy? The teasers surrounding having to make a choice like that sound really cool, I'd love to know if it actually feels like a dramatic choice or not.

Mar 23, 2012#18

ScytheRexx

I don't agree, at all.

Warriors and Rogues are still very powerful classes, they do well. Rogues are actually much higher DPS in Dragon Soul then many other class including the DK, up there with fire mages, while the bottom are crowded with classes like Boomkin and Warlocks. Warriors saw a very large boost that put them above DKs on the general average. I think your recent inexperience from quitting has made you fall behind on your knowledge.

When it comes to your claiming the warrior is not needed anymore, the problem I think is you are looking at what the warrior lost, which back in BC was "exclusive" tanking. Warriors still are great tanks, falling behind a little yes, but still fun, and the DPS specs are still doing fine, staying generally competitive. Could they be better tanks? I think they can be, but they can't reach a point again where people find it stupid to bring anything other then a warrior. Right now Druids and Blood DKs are the majority tanks you will fine because they edge out in the areas people like their tanks, which is high mitigation and "built-in" blocking mechanics that allow them to stack of more mitigation. The high amount of self-healing does not hurt either.

Blizzard is trying to make it so the main tanking niche of warriors this time around is control. No one will have more control in a fight then warriors will in MoP.

A rogue falling behind because groups are fast is a bit silly. Any rogue worth his salt will be stealthed and behind the next mob before the rest of the group can even catch their breath from the last one. Most groups I am in the rogue positions himself behind the next group before the rest of the team even finishes looting, because he can. It's a much faster paced style of play, one I know many people enjoy, and while it's true when creatures get killed fast the rogue does not get to enjoy as much usage of finishing moves, they get a ton of variance in boss fights, slower fights, or pvp. I still get destroyed by good rogues.

Scythe, have you had a chance to play through the starting zone for the Pandarens, up to the point where you're forced to choose a faction, or has it been too buggy? The teasers surrounding having to make a choice like that sound really cool, I'd love to know if it actually feels like a dramatic choice or not.

I was, right now it's not extremely dramatic, but there are a lot of cutscenes still missing from the whole thing. Basically...

You are told by your master sensai that something is wrong with the island, which sits on the back of a massive turtle, and you have to gather the four elemental spirits that watch over the island to start finding out whats wrong. You gather each of the elemental spirits, which take the form of small, almost childlike sprites. Once that is done the sensai decides to break a few hundred year old silence they had with the turtle itself, entrusting you to carry out the conversation, before passing away. You go with Asya and Ji, two pandaren monks that embody different philosophies (Asya is more reserved and patient, Ji is more hotheaded and brash) that you have been alternating working with during much of the quests.

Once you speak with the turtle (which is amazing, as you fly in a balloon past him and the whole turtle head comes out of the water and starts looking at you, he is friggin huge), you learn that he has a "thorn" stuck in him that is slowly killing him, and one he can no reach himself to remove. He asks you to save him, for if he dies the whole island would fall below the waves, killing everyone. You fly the balloon over to the forest where "feet don't walk" and see the Skyfire, the Alliance ship you ride during the DS raid, crashed and lodged in the turtles side.

You join with Asya and Ji to travel into the forest and find an old hermit that lives there. You find him with some Horde crewmen that escaped the Alliance, who imprisoned them on the ship (it is not yet explained why they did this). Asya goes off to find the Alliance near the ship while you stay with Ji and the Horde to figure out how to remove the Skyfire. Ji and the Horde come to the conclusion to use explosives to blow the ship away.

Once you have the explosives from working with the Horde, you join Asya and the Alliance who are fighting for survival as the ship is being attacked by lizardmen that are coming up from the sea. You save Alliance sailors and gather medical supplies, before helping Asya kill a big lizardman that is attacking her. You tell her about the bombs and she freaks out, since it could kill the island. Asya and Ji talk about it and Asya finally relents to Ji's plan, they blow up the ship causing a huge bleeding gash in the turtles shell.

Frantically you gather Alliance Priests and Horde Druids, who go to the wound to heal it. You have to protect them from the still attacking lizardmen, but they in the end successfully heal the wound, saving the island. You leave the area with the Horde and Alliance once again having a "standoff".

It finally ends you with you meeting the spirit of your old master, who says that the turtle is not the only part of the world suffering, and that they need to start moving out to help heal what damage has been done, starting with you, Asya, and Ji. Asya decides to go become ambassador with the Alliance, still angry at Ji for almost killing the turtle, while Ji decides to go with the Horde, confident that in the end he made the right choice since they healed the turtle before he perished. The sensai's then says it is now your choice who you wish to support going out into the world, and a window appears giving you a rundown of both factions. You click which one you want and it ports you to Stormwind or Orgrimmar with Asya or Ji, to meet with Varian or Garrosh.

Mar 23, 2012#19

Gared

Actually, that bit about recent break causing knowledge lag could apply to both of us. I've been continuing to pay for my sub like a good little Annual Pass member (so I could get into the beta and so I could get D3 for free), but haven't really kept up on my actual playing, because I've been waiting for the beta and playing other stuff, like Skyrim and the Mass Effect trilogy. Maybe this time around I'll actually have the brain power and free time duing the beta to really test the new mechanics of various classes. I wasn't terribly effective last time.

Mar 23, 2012#20

ScytheRexx

That is always a problem, balance is a difficult beast and a class that is weak in one patch may be destroying in other patches. I still think, overall, the balance is pretty good. Some do lag behind, and others still do more, but the variance is not so bad that I don't see a certain class being totally excluded from general raids or causing groups to wipe over and over because the class has built-in problems with it's role.

It can always get better (or worst) but I think saying rogues and warriors are not "needed" anymore is a bit silly. If we break it down we would only ever "need" three classes, one to heal, one to dps, and one to hold aggro and take the hits during that time. Find out the best of each class that handles each roll and everyone just picks those classes all the time.

You should play a class you like, knowing you will be successful, rather then worry that another class might be a few % better then you during that patch cycle.

Mar 23, 2012#21

Shegokigo

There's not necessarily "not needed" classes, but definitely "bottom of the totem pole classes

There's a reason why some of the most "fun" classes are still the least played, aka Rogues/Warlocks.

Mar 23, 2012#22

ScytheRexx

Shegokigo said:
There's a reason why some of the most "fun" classes are still the least played, aka Rogues/Warlocks.

I agree with warlocks, but I see rogues all over the place. They are definitely one of the more popular ones right now, probably due to the legendaries.

The problem with warlocks is they are like mages, but don't have the mobility of mages. This is why people think they are experimenting with a tanking spec, because they are going to try to make warlocks into very tough to kill mages, relying more on high damage reduction rather then on mobility. A lot of the "tanking" skills can be used by more the just demonology locks, though they will have the most with Demonform and Nether Plating.

Mar 23, 2012#23

Gared

Yeah, I'm never terribly concerned that someone else playing another character class is going to be better at my chosen role than I am, mainly I try to make sure that I'm playing my class as well as I can and do my best to make sure I'm not getting beat out by other class members. I mainly play the other classes to see if I can have as much fun with them as I do with my paladin(s) and mage(s). So far paladins, mages, and rogues (which I haven't really enjoyed since Cata hit) have been my favorite classes to play, but I'm constantly going back to the others to see if they've made enough changes in various patches that I have fun with them. So far, they have not.

I think the faction choice question is probably going to be harder for me to make as a player than they necessarily designed it to be. On the one hand, Garrosh is insane (as is pre-ordained by the fact that he's the end boss of this expac) and is leading the horde to ruin. On the other hand, I've never had all that much faith in Varian, ever since the breaking of the accords between Jaina and Thrall and the ensuing encroachment by the Alliance down by Ratchet; not to mention that little scene at the end of the follow-up to the Wrathgate when Thrall is attempting to help Sylvanas take Undercity back and Varian shows up to kill them for the apothecary's transgressions.

Mar 23, 2012#24

ScytheRexx

Gared said:
I think the faction choice question is probably going to be harder for me to make as a player than they necessarily designed it to be. On the one hand, Garrosh is insane (as is pre-ordained by the fact that he's the end boss of this expac) and is leading the horde to ruin. On the other hand, I've never had all that much faith in Varian, ever since the breaking of the accords between Jaina and Thrall and the ensuing encroachment by the Alliance down by Ratchet; not to mention that little scene at the end of the follow-up to the Wrathgate when Thrall is attempting to help Sylvanas take Undercity back and Varian shows up to kill them for the apothecary's transgressions.

Varian would be so much cooler if they just kept his personality at the end of the MoP Beta Pandaren Intro.

"Haayy Guurrrlll!" - upon turning in breadcrumb.
"Follow me, let's talk about stuff" - Runs off at high speed outside.
"I am the king. Fight me. - Before starting a small sparring match.
"You're cool. Welcome to the Alliance" - on finishing the little introduction chain.

Some small details from the start of MoP that we know about, including the reason behind why they find Pandaria.

At some point Garrosh sends a team to kidnap Anduin Wrynn, and they succeed. Varian sends a huge amount of forces to stop the ship carrying Anduin from reaching Orgrimmar, which causes both fleets to move farther and farther south. The ship finally breaks through the blockade, but is attacked by huge amounts of Alliance flying machines, that destroy all of the ships convoy fleet and causes them to escape into a nearby fog (the mists that surround Pandaria) The ship never comes out of the fog.

Garrosh, pissed that his prisoner of interest is not sitting chained in front of him, sends the Horde player and a small group to find the missing ship in the fog. Varian, worried about his son, does the same, sending the Alliance player with a small group to rescue his son from the ship. In the end, both crash land on Pandaria, thus how our players starts involving himself in the island. Blizzard says that Anduin actually escapes the ship, which also crashed, and will be a character that appears a lot on the island in various areas either helping Alliance players or avoiding Horde capture.

Mar 23, 2012#25

Frankie Williamson

And once again a pivotal plot point during the expansion will take place attacking a horde city.

Bullshit yo. When they gonna let us sack an Alliance city?

Oh, here's a question for you Scythe, is Orgrimmar at least finished or is it still looking half constructed?

Mar 23, 2012#26

Shegokigo

It's an interesting concept to get people to play them for sure. However even with the surge in rogues with the legendaries, the Census sites still show them barely above Warlock for least played.

I have both, as well as the other dps classes and i have to admit that Rogue is probably my favorite class "toys" wise, it can't hold a candle to a equally skilled/geared Mage/Hunter (sadly also due to mechanics) on any fight other than Patchwork style. The biggest problem here was the homoginization of the classes. Each class was pretty equal on invites when they all had unique buffs to bring to the raids, now you'll bring the class that gives the same buff as all the rest but has higher dps.

Mar 23, 2012#27

ScytheRexx

Frankie Williamson said:
Oh, here's a question for you Scythe, is Orgrimmar at least finished or is it still looking half constructed?

Still half constructed for now. Blizzard says they want to fix Stormwind and finish Orgrimmar, but they want to do it a bit later, likely going to happen in a patch. I have a feeling Orgrimmar will not be finished until 5.3 when Thrall takes over the Horde once again, because then they can finish it and change some of the aesthetic once again to better fit back a bit with the older styling that fit better for Thrall's Horde.

I have both, as well as the other dps classes and i have to admit that Rogue is probably my favorite class "toys" wise, it can't hold a candle to a equally skilled/geared Mage/Hunter (sadly also due to mechanics) on any fight other than Patchwork style. The biggest problem here was the homoginization of the classes. Each class was pretty equal on invites when they all had unique buffs to bring to the raids, now you'll bring the class that gives the same buff as all the rest but has higher dps.

I will admit that rogues are a much harder class to play over, say, a mage. I still don't think that makes them bad though, it just makes them less casual friendly. Rogues may not be played in raids as much as mages, but I still say I see them a lot. BGs have many rogues, they are a popular PVP class.

Mar 23, 2012#28

Telephius

I wonder how much Shaman outrage there will be if Warlocks get tanking capability? hehe then again if they fix our totem issues most Shaman probably wont mind.

Mar 23, 2012#29

Frankie Williamson

Ugh, totems.

The red-headed step children of buffs since the very beginning.

Mar 23, 2012#30

Telephius

Aye, though I dont mind totems like grounding, tremor, etc where they are tactical totems but I really dislike having to drop buff totems then forgo buffs when I drop tactical totems. It has urked me since WotLK that a DK can have our buffs in superior form(I don't quite like that they went away from buffs being a class unique perk I don't hate their direction with homogenized buffs either) so having totems has went from a powerful unique buffs with the cost of managing totems to a hinderance.

I am looking forward to seeing how they have changed the totem line-up in MoP beta.

Mar 24, 2012#31

ScytheRexx

If you hate the buff totems, then you will love MoP. They decided to consolidate a lot of the buffs, and as such all the aura buffs, including paladin auras, shaman buff totems, hunter trueshot aura, etc... have all be completely removed.

Totems are now all tactically placed with a light cooldown and additions to fill out the roster. Two examples of new or changed totems is Capacitor Totem, which does a stun pulse after a certain amount of time, and Healing Stream Totem, which now much more rapidly heals the most injured player standing near it.

Totems are expected to be planted as the need arises and otherwise still follow the same rules of only one totem per element, based on if you need something like Grounding, Termor, Capacitor, Earthbind, etc... Because they know this will make it a lot easier for people to notice and kill important totems, they even added a glyph that makes it so the old "four totem" drop is possible with three decoys that don't give you any bonus, but can be great to trick people in PVP or just nostalgia.

Mar 24, 2012#32

Bowielee

Dave said:
When I was writing my game I always asked myself, "Why would someone play this class?" I don't think Blizzard asks themselves that. There's no need for Warriors or Rogues in the game any more. Warriors were replaced by Paladins, DKs and now Warlocks who can tank just as well and have other abilities besides.

Rogues are just DPS, but they have to be fairly close. Most magic classes - and the DK again, go figure - can out-DPS the Rogue and have other abilities besides. Add in the fact that most Rogue abilities are best used when stealthy and you have a class that can't run in most instances because everyone wants to run through the thing so fast the Rogue hardly ever gets to do anything but run up and start hitting.

And since both of those are my favorite classes...

For the record, I'm going to predict that eventually class choice will be irrellevant and every class will have a tree that fills in one of the BIG 3 roles. It seems to be the direction they've been taking for quite some time now.

I personally have been against the homogenization of classes from the start.

Mar 24, 2012#33

ScytheRexx

Bowielee said:
For the record, I'm going to predict that eventually class choice will be irrellevant and every class will have a tree that fills in one of the BIG 3 roles. It seems to be the direction they've been taking for quite some time now.

I know what you are trying to say, but technically every class already has a tree that fills one of the BIG 3 roles.

Personally, if you go by ability, class choice is already irreverent. It's the fluff, the unique tools, feel, and utilized abilities that make people want to play a certain class over another. Yes, my shaman when in a raid usually shoots off blasts like I am a mage, but my mage does not have totems, and my shaman does not have blink or invis, just like my warlock has pets, etc.. Those will keep it from becoming completely irrelevant, at least in my opinion. The relevance will just be more in choosing what you enjoy, rather then worrying about what one is the best or most unique.

Mar 24, 2012#34

Bowielee

I just miss actual specialization. Back in the day (yeah, i know this sounds like a "get off my lawn" rant), the different trees were more leveling/instancing/utility. They've now morphed into healing/tanking/DPS, and I think that detracts fromt he classes themselves. Then again, I was against Shadow Priests from the very start. I dunno, it's all down to taste, but I liked having defined tanking/dps/healing classes with a few hybrids thrown in, like Palladins, Shaman, and Druids.

Don't get me wrong, I understand WHY they're doing it (I remember waiting forever for a warrior to fill out a party), but that doesn't mean I necessarily support it.

Mar 26, 2012#35

Shakey

Warlock tank? Really? I just don't understand why. The lack of tanks doesn't come from the lack of classes that can tank, but from people just not enjoying it. Its too damn easy to level to say you can only have one character. If they want to homogenize it that much, how will mages tank? Through their elemental? Or will they heal... maybe we need dk healers who pull life from the mob and transfer it to the party member. How about rogue tanks? Some classes just don't make sense for certain roles.

Mar 26, 2012#36

ScytheRexx

Shakey said:
Warlock tank? Really? I just don't understand why. The lack of tanks doesn't come from the lack of classes that can tank, but from people just not enjoying it. Its too damn easy to level to say you can only have one character. If they want to homogenize it that much, how will mages tank? Through their elemental? Or will they heal... maybe we need dk healers who pull life from the mob and transfer it to the party member. How about rogue tanks? Some classes just don't make sense for certain roles.

Probably not a good idea to discuss this with me, I have in the past developed "viable" tanking specs for mages and rogues, plus healing specs for warlocks. If I could, I would remove the entire aspect of "pure" classes, because I hate the idea of the hybrid tax that right now afflicts a few of the hybrid classes. Anyone that thinks certain classes don't make sense for certain roles is just not being imaginative enough.

Warlock tanks may not make more tanks, or maybe it will. The reason people don't enjoy tanks is because it's a) a very stressful job if you are not good at it, or b) too mind numbing since you don't worry about using skills outside of spamming one or two for aggro. Both those issues are being addressed by making tank mitigation more reactive, meaning more skill usage to give yourself your mitigation and avoidance, but overall reducing dungeon difficulty for heroics, making tanking less stressful for newer tanks.

Mar 26, 2012#37

Shakey

ScytheRexx said:
Probably not a good idea to discuss this with me, I have in the past developed "viable" tanking specs for mages and rogues, plus healing specs for warlocks. If I could, I would remove the entire aspect of "pure" classes, because I hate the idea of the hybrid tax that right now afflicts a few of the hybrid classes. Anyone that thinks certain classes don't make sense for certain roles is just not being imaginative enough.

Warlock tanks may not make more tanks, or maybe it will. The reason people don't enjoy tanks is because it's a) a very stressful job if you are not good at it, or b) too mind numbing since you don't worry about using skills outside of spamming one or two for aggro. Both those issues are being addressed by making tank mitigation more reactive, meaning more skill usage to give yourself your mitigation and avoidance, but overall reducing dungeon difficulty for heroics, making tanking less stressful for newer tanks.

Viable in what way? Sure a smart enough lock or mage could tank if need be, but it was never ideal or enjoyable. I've tanked a few instances with my lock when horrible tanks showed up, but it was never fun. I rolled a dps character for a reason. The problem isn't pure classes, its the idea that every class should do everything. Why should every class do everything? I ask again because they have made leveling so easy. Why should we expect people to level one class and do everything?

Mar 26, 2012#38

Shakey

Oh, and I'll say the issue of the lack of tanks come from the issue of stress. You are expected to lead, which most don't want to do. They want to sit back and spam buttons. Same goes with healing. Too much responsibility.

Mar 26, 2012#39

Shegokigo

Why does Shego tank? Cause she can't stand the incompetancy of other tanks.

Leave my dungeon/raid experience in the hands of this current gen of WoW fuckwits? I think not.

Mar 26, 2012#40

Shakey

Exactly. Tanks are control freaks, which is a rarity in mmo's.

Mar 26, 2012#41

Shegokigo

If wanting a dungeon to go smoothly, pull quickly but not stupidly, kill bosses in the right orders, not skip quests etc = Control Freak? Consider me labeled.

FYI, "rarity" in MMOs? I dunno about that, if anyone could be labeled as a Control Freak Tank would have been the tanks in Everquest.

Mar 26, 2012#42

Shakey

Shegokigo said:
If wanting a dungeon to go smoothly, pull quickly but not stupidly, kill bosses in the right orders, not skip quests etc = Control Freak? Consider me labeled.

FYI, "rarity" in MMOs? I dunno about that, if anyone could be labeled as a Control Freak Tank would have been the tanks in Everquest.

You are labeled. Most want to just sit back and blame things that go wrong on the tank and or healer.

Mar 26, 2012#43

ScytheRexx

Shakey said:
Viable in what way? Sure a smart enough lock or mage could tank if need be, but it was never ideal or enjoyable. I've tanked a few instances with my lock when horrible tanks showed up, but it was never fun. I rolled a dps character for a reason. The problem isn't pure classes, its the idea that every class should do everything. Why should every class do everything? I ask again because they have made leveling so easy. Why should we expect people to level one class and do everything?

They don't have to do "everything" but they should at the least fulfill two of the three roles required for play. While it is easy to level, you still have a lot of players that only stick to one character. I know a few, and one of them (at least he used to), a friend of mine that plays a undead mage, actually grew tired of the class simply because he felt like he had to do the same thing over and over and over, just always DPS.

He ended up making a druid and never went back to mage, because druid fulfilled all the "roles" while also being just fine for DPS when he wanted it. This was not a good thing for him, as he grew attached to his mage and really just wished more was open to them.

Mage has to be balanced to be more powerful then Druids, otherwise no one would play them, thus the "hybrid tax".

And this is not about a warlock or mage tanking as they are now, it's about them gaining a tanking or healing specs. A mage would, for instance, gain a new shield that would make him critical immune. His spells would do less damage and be shorter range, but would have more wide attacks to better gain group aggro, and his health would also be amplified by the shield. Warlocks, right now, get tanking through the usage of demonform, which turns them into a hulking powerhouse of magic with melee attacks and close range aoe abilities.

The thing is, this is extremely easy now for them to add. The barrier to creating a new spec was always talents. They didn't want to have to make a whole new tree of talents for a new spec going down 7 tiers. Now that spec and talents are separate, they can add specs and skills to accommodate that spec without altering the talent system. This is why Druids now have four specs, Balance (Ranged DPS), Restoration (Healer), Guardian (Tank) and Feral (Melee DPS).

P.S. While you picked a DPS class to DPS, that does not mean you have to stop DPSing if they gain another role. It's not like turning warlocks into a tank will suddenly make the other specs vanish.

Mar 26, 2012#44

Shakey

That's more a problem that hasn't been fixed with druids and paladins than anything else. No class should be able to do everything that well.

Mar 26, 2012#45

Shegokigo

Fix it? They added a new class that can do it too! Monks!

Mar 26, 2012#46

Shakey

Exactly. Lets just play either a druid a paladin or a monk and you'll be good. :-/

Mar 26, 2012#47

ScytheRexx

Yup, Monks also can fulfill all three roles.

Sorry man, but people like hybrids. I have never seen warlocks as excited as I have since the revelation of tank viability came to the surface.

Shakey said:
Exactly. Lets just play either a druid a paladin or a monk and you'll be good. :-/

I would give more credit to your argument if this was actually a problem, however, I don't see everyone playing paladin or druid at the expense of all other classes. Are they well represented? Yes, but so are priests, and they only fit two roles. Hell, looking at leveling data paladins were lower then Mage, Priest, Hunter, Shaman, and Warrior when it comes to representation leveling from 80-85.

"Pure" classes are not hurting that much, but it would be better to make them hybrids by adding new specs, rather then try to remove viable specs from other classes. That is not going to happen. By adding more roles to pure classes we remove the hybrid tax, give them more options to try new roles, and ultimately make those classes more popular for their versatility.

Mar 26, 2012#48

Shegokigo

Warlock is now the most visited forum on MMO Champ, which is up from the least visited prior to the announcement.

As for being an awesome hybrid? Well I do play PLD for a reason.... however I disagree that we should do everything nearly as equally well as a "pure" class. Rogues/Hunters/Mages/Warlocks should have definitely decimated the hybrids in DPS and the hybrid classes should have definitely had a "tax" on them to help balance it out.

Mar 26, 2012#49

Shakey

I just think making every class do everything is the wrong approach. Making each class do 2 of the roles is fine. You'll always compete with the 3 role classes though, and I bet they'll cave and have rogue healers at the end. Maybe they can bleed the mobs to heal party members...

Mar 27, 2012#50

Shakey

Shegokigo said:
As for being an awesome hybrid? Well I do play PLD for a reason.... however I disagree that we should do everything nearly as equally well as a "pure" class. Rogues/Hunters/Mages/Warlocks should have definitely decimated the hybrids in DPS and the hybrid classes should have definitely had a "tax" on them to help balance it out.

Or just admit they can do too much and cut all classes back to 2 roles. Would it really be that bad? Druids healers and dps. Pallies tanks and dps. Monks dps an healers.

Mar 27, 2012#51

ScytheRexx

Shegokigo said:
As for being an awesome hybrid? Well I do play PLD for a reason.... however I disagree that we should do everything nearly as equally well as a "pure" class. Rogues/Hunters/Mages/Warlocks should have definitely decimated the hybrids in DPS and the hybrid classes should have definitely had a "tax" on them to help balance it out.

The problem is that by adding a tax you often tell the hybrids they shouldn't be DPS, which hybrids want to have as a valid role. Thankfully the tax is not heavy, it is still, and always will be, a hot topic of discussion until it is abolished, and the only way to abolish it will be to either remove hybrids or remove pures, and removing hybrids would require removing specs, while removing pures would require adding specs. One is much more viable.

Again, this is not about giving every class all the roles. We don't need rogues to heal, tank, and dps, but there is no reason they can't dps and tank.

Shakey said:
Or just admit they can do too much and cut all classes back to 2 roles. Would it really be that bad? Druids healers and dps. Pallies tanks and dps. Monks dps an healers.

Yes, it would be that bad. You have to understand that some people have been playing the various roles on druids and paladins for ages. You are basically going to have to remove one of them, pissing off the very large fanbase of that spec and role, just to carry out the action. It would be the first step on the eventual death of the game. The only reason you are likely fine with it is because you never played those classes, or in the end, played a spec that you don't think would be cut. Think of all the players here, not just what you want.

Letting a class do everything is not a problem, just as long as he can only do one of those roles at once. A paladin healer is not going to put out high DPS or tank, a paladin tank is not going to do high damage and heal, etc... Blizzard is even taking this further by making it so most of the healing skills on the paladin are no longer even open outside of Holy spec.

Mar 27, 2012#52

Shegokigo

Being 4th-5th on the meter while Pures have 1-3 isn't exactly a tax that would keep them from being that spec.

Mar 27, 2012#53

Frank

Shegokigo said:
Why does Shego tank? Cause she can't stand the incompetancy of other tanks.

Leave my dungeon/raid experience in the hands of this current gen of WoW fuckwits? I think not.

That's me a T as well. I only began tanking because I couldn't fucking stand other tanks.

I would love to play a weird pet tank class if the warlock gets it. That sounds pretty rad to me and really different compared to the other tank classes.

Mar 27, 2012#54

Frank

Shakey said:
That's more a problem that hasn't been fixed with druids and paladins than anything else. No class should be able to do everything that well.

I don't know about lately, as I'm like 3 major content patches out of date, but Paladins were never that good at DPS (in fact, the worst usually labelled them correctly). Hell, I remember when paladins were garbage for everything but healing (waaaaaaaaaaaaay back). I remember a guy who I used to guild with many moons ago who was always a retadin. One of the most skilled players ever. When he tanked, he was the best tank. When he healed, he was the best healer. When he was ret, he was middling at best behind the medicorely competent players. I know it wasn't skill. The guy was fucking amazingly good at everything. The only thing he lacked was common sense not to be ret.

Mar 27, 2012#55

Shakey

I wasn't really serious about cutting specs from druids and paladins. I've played both, so i get that people like it. I just think pushing specs to classes where it doesn't make sense isn't the answer. The problem isn't that certain classes can't fill enough roles, its that people feel left out because they can't do what that other class can. Thing is, people will always feel that. Adding roles that don't make sense is just going to kill the feel of classes, and cause confusion. A druid can melee dps, range dps, tank, and heal. How long before people start whining again that their class can't do all that? Should every class really be able to fill all those roles? It seems like multi classing would be a better solution. Let people level a character multiple times as different classes.

Mar 27, 2012#56

AshburnerX

Shegokigo said:
Why does Shego tank? Cause she can't stand the incompetancy of other tanks.

Leave my dungeon/raid experience in the hands of this current gen of WoW fuckwits? I think not.

This is basically why I'm tanking in SWTOR.

Mar 27, 2012#57

ScytheRexx

Shegokigo said:
Being 4th-5th on the meter while Pures have 1-3 isn't exactly a tax that would keep them from being that spec.

Like I said, it is not heavy, so this is not a huge problem right now, but it does come up in discussion when you get to the world first crowd and raids, and often if they have the class to fulfill a certain buff, they "gravitate" towards pure dps over hybrid dps, which I don't personally think should be part of the consideration. DPS is DPS.

Making it so "pures" don't exist will fix the issue by giving the people that play pure classes more utility, while also stopping the hybrid tax and putting classes on a more even level for DPS roles.

Shakey said:
Adding roles that don't make sense is just going to kill the feel of classes, and cause confusion. A druid can melee dps, range dps, tank, and heal. How long before people start whining again that their class can't do all that? Should every class really be able to fill all those roles? It seems like multi classing would be a better solution. Let people level a character multiple times as different classes.

You are creating phantom problems. No one complains right now that Druid and Paladin can utilize all the different roles, they just wish a few of the others had more options. I have one of every class above 80, I have played all of them in various forms of heroics either in WOTLK or Cataclysm, and I am perfectly fine playing a warrior that can tank or dps, but can't heal, or a priest that can heal or dps, but can't tank.

I am sorry, Shakey, but you are sounding like one of those sky is falling individuals that worried when new race-class combos were open that the entire community was going to fall apart and want undead druids and orc paladins. No one did. We are not asking for everything for everyone, no one wants that, but we do want classes, all of them, to have more utility. A limit of allowing every class to fulfill at least two roles is not going to hurt the game, more so when the other specs, the classic ones, are not hurt in the process.

Playing multiple classes is an option, but it shouldn't be the only one. I play all the classes because I enjoy all the classes, not because I feel beholden to make one just to have utility.

I also wish to reiterate, that certain roles on certain classes only "don't make sense" because you are to beholden to the system as it is now, you are not thinking outside of the box. WarCraft, as a series, has had Mages utilize arcane magic for healing purposes (Aegwyn, the mother of Medivh, brought her son back from the dead using it), Rogues can tank through the usage of agility, just like the Monk, and warlocks can tank through usage of well... becoming a massive demon ripped to the teeth with muscles. Hunters would be the most tricky, but I have been a huge proponent years ago of altering Beastmastery to instead be a melee tank spec that utilizes two weapons, to play off the image of Rexxar who was the meat shield of the WC3:TFT Orc Campagin.

Mar 27, 2012#58

Piotyr

I don't always play healer, but when I do, it's because I'm sick of depending on other fuckwits to keep me alive.

Mar 27, 2012#59

Piotyr

Of course, the problem there is playing with any PUG that has no clue that healers actually need time and mana to keep them alive.

Mar 27, 2012#60

ScytheRexx

This is why every one of my characters that has a healer or tank option, I usually play one of those roles as the main spec and DPS as the alternate spec. I also hate having crappy tanks or healers. My wife and I for a long time actually filled both roles (I was tank, she was heals) but now that she mainly plays a hunter and I play a restoration druid, we don't have that dynamic anymore.

Piotyr said:
Of course, the problem there is playing with any PUG that has no clue that healers actually need time and mana to keep them alive.

This is why when I drink I don't heal. If the tank runs in by himself and starts attacking, he wipes, I cast shadowmeld, wait for the mobs to reset, then resurrect the team. If the tank complains I tell him he has to wait for my mana, or he will have to find another healer, no skin off my back. Most of the time the DPS side with me, unless they are friends with the tank.

On the flip side, I watch the healer mana on every pull as a tank. If it's below 50% I ask him if he needs mana before I pull the next.

Mar 27, 2012#61

Shakey

I guess I don't see how this is going to fix anything. Even if you get all the classes at 2 viable roles, you're still going to have 2, and now 3 classes that can do more. You think people won't still demand a hybrid tax on that?

Mar 27, 2012#62

AshburnerX

I don't know... SWTOR is handling it's classes pretty well. All of them have competent DPS ability, as well as another role they can fulfill (except for Snipers and Gunslingers, who ONLY DPS). Mostly, people seem to be thankful that it's much easier to find Tanks and healers now.

Mar 27, 2012#63

ScytheRexx

Shakey said:
I guess I don't see how this is going to fix anything. Even if you get all the classes at 2 viable roles, you're still going to have 2, and now 3 classes that can do more. You think people won't still demand a hybrid tax on that?

No, I don't think they would. Can I say that with 100% certainty? Nope, but it's what I feel based on how we are moving forward with MoP. The hybrid tax is already rumored to be on the decline just by the nature of "spec" changes being more focused, but even if the hybrid tax is removed due to more focus, that means we still have the problem of pures losing utility.

The fact remains, it at the least works towards a solution. By keeping the system as it is now, you are not working towards anything. You don't see it "fixing" anything, but one does not fix something by staring at it and hoping to goes away. Even if it fixes only 50% of the problem, that is better then nothing at all.

I can already tell you adding it wouldn't create a problem, because options never hurt any class in the long run. Remember when warriors were the only tanks? They made paladin and druid viable, then added DKs, it didn't destroy the game because more options were given for the roles over what we had.

Mar 27, 2012#64

Piotyr

I remember days when Warriors were the only tanks, and only viable as tanks in PvE (Arms/Fury were mostly PvP specs unless you were screwing around).

Priests, Druids, and Shamans/Paladins were only viable as healers in PvE.

Rogues, Warlocks, Hunters and Mages were the only classes that were viable as DPS.

And that time was really boring. Sure, you had a role as soon as you chose a class from the beginning, but fewer options was never a good design.

Mar 27, 2012#65

Shakey

I think you overestimate the community... Paladins and druids could always tank, just not well. They didn't change the class to make it fit another role. I know you'll be able to find lore examples to fit any class combo you want, and I'm sure they'll make it up if there isn't. It just changes the feel of the game. I think that's why I lost interest in the game. There's not a whole lot of "Wow!" left in the game. The world doesn't feel big anymore, and the classes and factions don't really feel unique any more. It's like anything else. If you make it bland, obviously more people will like it. It loses what makes it great though.

I'm not saying we should go back to the way it was in Vanilla, that just wasn't fun for many people. There is the danger of taking it too far though. That's what it feels like they're doing.

Will it cause problems? Other than a temporary spike in horrible lock tanks, probably not. It's good that they're willing to trow out conventions and try new things. If I can get my lazy bum of a friend to send me a scroll I'll probably give it another try.

Mar 27, 2012#66

Piotyr

In Vanilla WoW, Paladins and Druids could tank about as well as Shamans. That is, fine enough when severely over-geared for the content, but not viable when learning content.

Mar 27, 2012#67

Shakey

Right, they could. They were just horrible.

Mar 27, 2012#68

ScytheRexx

Shakey said:
I think you overestimate the community...

And I think you underestimate them. The community can be jackface retarded, but changes like opening roles are one of the few things I literally see the community lose their shit over in a good way. When druids and paladins were given the ability to be viable tanks, there was nothing but praise. People like getting new stuff, they only complain when they lose what they have. Taking away the talent system as we know it? BOO! Giving warlocks the ability to tank? YEAAAHHHH! They never asked for warlock tanks, but having them is exciting to players.

Paladins and druids could always tank, just not well. They didn't change the class to make it fit another role. I know you'll be able to find lore examples to fit any class combo you want, and I'm sure they'll make it up if there isn't. It just changes the feel of the game. I think that's why I lost interest in the game. There's not a whole lot of "Wow!" left in the game. The world doesn't feel big anymore, and the classes and factions don't really feel unique any more. It's like anything else. If you make it bland, obviously more people will like it. It loses what makes it great though.

I don't agree with paladins and druids always being able to tank. Yes, they had a spec that said it was a tank, but the whole game back in vanilla and going into BC was balanced around the idea of making warriors the only "real" tank. You couldn't tank at all on paladins or druids outside of world group quests. That only started to change in BC, when they started the process to make them more viable, and even then it was never finished until WOTLK. I remember attempting often to tank on my own blood elf paladin after the process started, and no one wanted me because the viability was so low. The best I could get was the rare Normal dungeon runs, never a heroic.

As for the second part of the paragraph, we need to change the feel of the game on some level, at least every expansion. This game came out in 2004, it is over 7 years old and will not have that "WoW!" factor, it's just not possible to expect that. If the game does not change in some form, to mix up the processes and alter the status-quo, it will crash and burn. As much as people like to wear rose-tinted goggles about vanilla or BC, everyone I talk with agrees that if either of those releases/expansions attempted to exist in the modern day, they would crash. Hell, Cata was an attempt to "recapture" some of what people had in BC, and it lost them nearly 2 million players.

I think in the end, your biggest issue is not changing the classes or giving them more options, the issue you have is the game itself does not interest you anymore and the alterations would be such a drastic step away from your memories. You want to feel like it's the same game you loved, but the more changes that happen the more distant you feel from it. I know with some people it can be hard to adapt.

I'm not saying we should go back to the way it was in Vanilla, that just wasn't fun for many people. There is the danger of taking it too far though. That's what it feels like they're doing.

I disagree. There is such a thing as "too far" but that, to me, would to to remove all variance entirely. If they made it so every race could be every class, and ever class could be every spec, that would be going over the line, but no one is asking for that. All the people that are crapping their pants in excitement over warlock tanking are not sitting there going "well why can't we heal too?", which seems to be what you think the next natural question is going to be on the process. It's not, not for us that play anyways.

Will it cause problems? Other than a temporary spike in horrible lock tanks, probably not. It's good that they're willing to trow out conventions and try new things. If I can get my lazy bum of a friend to send me a scroll I'll probably give it another try.

I can always send you a scroll if you feel like it, but I recommend at least waiting till MoP considering how you feel about the game right now. Cata was a bit of a failure to most players due to over-tuned difficult and a few shoddy systems that are being corrected, and while it's better then it was at the beginning, you would be coming into a game that sometime later this year is going to drastically change. Talents will be completely redesigned, end game mechanics expanded, class specs better condensed, leveling altered (no more trainers), etc.. Just hit me up though if you want to give it a go anyways, a free 80 can't hurt.

Mar 27, 2012#69

Piotyr

And it all reached its apex in the original Four Horsemen encounter of the original Naxxramas, where the encounter was impossible without a full eight warriors with set bonuses to prevent resisted taunts.

Mar 27, 2012#70

Frank

Which was the total of warriors that got that far in vanilla.

Mar 27, 2012#71

ScytheRexx

Little note, but it seems earlier today Ghostcrawler debunked warlock tanks, and already I see people complaining about crushing disappointment and anger. Some places so far have been pretty civil about it, others you think they are implying that GC is pissing on the warlocks grave.

Supposedly the reason for this, is that they are now developing all tank gear separate from DPS gear (yup, even for Druids), and they don't want to have to put in a tanking cloth set.

Mar 27, 2012#72

SpecialKO

This discussion makes me want to see if I can download the beta and jump back in.

#Damnyouwork
#WaitIworkinthegameindustry
#ButImtoogoddamnbusy

Mar 27, 2012#73

ScytheRexx

SpecialKO said:
This discussion makes me want to see if I can download the beta and jump back in.

Did you get an invite? Realize, it's pretty buggy right now. Hope you not expecting a demo yet.

Mar 27, 2012#74

Frank

Ah, that's a bummer.

Mar 27, 2012#75

SpecialKO

ScytheRexx said:
Did you get an invite? Realize, it's pretty buggy right now. Hope you not expecting a demo yet.

No, not yet. Annual pass person here, I've just been too busy in recent months to hop on for more than leveling my alts idly while doing other things at home.

Mar 27, 2012#76

ScytheRexx

Frank said:
Ah, that's a bummer.

What, that it's buggy?

Be aware it's not that buggy, I remember in past betas when I would randomly fall through the world or quest chains would be entirely broken. I have had none of that.

These are the biggest issues we have right now.

Some of the Monk skills don't work (Spinning Crane Kick)
The Monks are not tuned correctly to be viable healers and tanks starting at level 15, when they would start those roles in dungeons.
The Pandaren have some missing emotes (No Dance) and missing sounds (No voices).
The Pandaren have some buggy animations (walking backwards with the male sometimes resets to the base pose)
You can reset talents but you can not reset spec, so deciding to test a Mistweaver Monk means you are stuck as that role.
The Wandering Isle has some water errors due to a change in the water graphics.

That's about it for the large ones, I am pretty sure with how complete it is already the expansion will likely release no later then this August, but don't hold me to that.

If you were actually talking about tank warlocks, at the very least they ARE keeping the skills that are making warlock tanking viable like the demonform glyph, they just won't have an official "spec" for tanking. It means a warlock that wants to tank wouldn't be able to do it through something like the Dungeon Finder, and they won't tune encounters for the class, but that if a warlock and his guildies really just wanted to walk into a heroic together, they technically could.

Instead they see most using it as a form of offtank in raids.

Mar 27, 2012#77

Frank

I was referring to the warlock tank thing.

Mar 27, 2012#78

ScytheRexx

Frank said:
I was referring to the warlock tank thing.

I figured that after writing my bug post, which is why I added that little part at the end. I didn't want to delete all that junk I wrote. :dumb:

Mar 27, 2012#79

SpecialKO

ScytheRexx said:
I am pretty sure with how complete it is already the expansion will likely release no later then this August, but don't hold me to that.

Unlikely, regardless of build condition. When school comes back is a terrible time to release new games that require large investments of time. It's why most games are released either right before/during the holiday season (October-December) or in the run-up to summer (Feb-May).

October or November is a much more likely candidate.

Mar 27, 2012#80

Shakey

ScytheRexx said:
Yes, they had a spec that said it was a tank, but the whole game back in vanilla and going into BC was balanced around the idea of making warriors the only "real" tank.

That's what I meant. The class was and is defined as being able to tank. They just didn't make it a viable option at the start. The current tanks feel like tanks. Warlock tanks just feel like such a stretch.

ScytheRexx said:
All the people that are crapping their pants in excitement over warlock tanking are not sitting there going "well why can't we heal too?"

I'm sure they will eventually, but we'll see.

My issues were never with talents or game mechanics or end game content. It's the lack of immersion. I don't want to go back to Vanilla WoW. That's not what I'm getting at. What I miss is a huge world. Not one that you teleport around in, or fly at breakneck speed above everything. Was it a pain getting places? Yeah, but you felt like you were actually a part of something. It's one of the things I like about Eve. The universe is huge, and it takes forever to get across it. It's a pain in the ass, but you feel like you're a part of the universe.

I know it's not ever going back to that, and MoP isn't going to change much of what I have a problem with. So I just want to look at it again, and see if it's something I can get excited about in spite of all that. Plus the free upgrade to cata will be nice.

Mar 27, 2012#81

ScytheRexx

SpecialKO said:
October or November is a much more likely candidate.

August is a bit of wishful thinking on my part, but I sure wouldn't mind hammering out a few stray bugs till October.

Shakey said:
The current tanks feel like tanks. Warlock tanks just feel like such a stretch.

Why though? Warlocks wear cloth, but one of their defining abilities we that allows them to tank is Demon Form, which turns them into a hulking demon ala Illidan.

Looks at those ripped muscles and pulsing, demonic power. Are you telling me that thing looks like less of a tank then, say, a Monk? Monks will not have plate armor or a hulking bear form, they will always looks, in general style, to rogues.

My issues were never with talents or game mechanics or end game content. It's the lack of immersion. I don't want to go back to Vanilla WoW. That's not what I'm getting at. What I miss is a huge world. Not one that you teleport around in, or fly at breakneck speed above everything. Was it a pain getting places? Yeah, but you felt like you were actually a part of something. It's one of the things I like about Eve. The universe is huge, and it takes forever to get across it. It's a pain in the ass, but you feel like you're a part of the universe.

I can partially agree to this.

You see, I like immersion too, but I have limits. Immersion to me needs to be high enough that I get interested in the world (and I do, as anyone can see, I know more about the history of this little fantasy universe then most people probably know regular history), but low enough that is does not make my gameplay suffer for it. This is specifically why I can't stand EvE, because I feel it tries so hard to be a "living universe" that I get bored to tears actually playing it, there is not enough "game" there for me.

In the end, it's about balance, about being open to new gameplay and styles while attempting to keep the qualities that made the immersion so great. A good example of trying for more immersion but ultimately causing problems was the change to more linear questing, it makes each zone much more cohesive and tells a better story, but the lack of unique quest hubs made people burn out on those linear quests extremely fast, it was not balanced to those that want story and those that want speed.

If it makes you feel any better, MoP is not going to let us fly right out the gate like Cataclysm did. They realized allowing us to fly that quickly did mess with the scope of the zones. They felt "tiny" because we never had to slog through them on our ground mounts, which was another thing that just added to the problems of the expansion. On the flip side, there does come a point where you want to be able to get around quickly, and so we need to make sure flying mounts are still going to be around once we hit the cap and the scale of the world loses it's luster.

Mar 27, 2012#82

ScytheRexx

Interesting new loot mechanics. We already knew that they were altering the Raid Finder Loot system to be individualized, but they took some time to clarify it.

Unlike now, in which the game does a background roll to choose the dropped loot, and then everyone else can figure out if they want to roll on it or not, the game will instead roll on an individual player basis. If this background roll "wins" for that player, then he is given spec appropriate loot automatically. There is no ability to pass or greed, you simple join a LFR group, kill a boss, and you might get an item or you might not. They are doing this to prevent drama, since you are now not fighting with the players, just the laws of probability.

That is not all however, they also revealed another new system. Bonus Rolls.

Basically, while doing daily quests for a certain faction, you can purchase Charms. These Charms can be taken into a raid (Whether LFR, Normal, or Heroic) and once the boss dies, a new UI appears asking if you want to attempt a second personal roll. If you use up the charm for the bonus roll, it will attempt another roll on the bosses loot table. If you win, you can get another piece of loot, but even if you lose, you will get some gold or other consolation for using up the charm.

Sounds brilliant to me. It gives raids a reason to do daily quests and travel the world a bit more, while also giving everyone extra chances to get those shiny items, even if they lose the original rolls.

Mar 27, 2012#83

SpecialKO

Hmmm, I like that concept.

The absolute worst part of raiding was how loot rolls added a good 5-10 minutes of arguing to every encounter that people weren't geared out of unless your guild has a specific system that everyone agreed to (which usually only cut the arguing by about half).

I remember before I stopped raiding a few months ago that my guild was actually debating bringing back Suicide Kings since we tended to have rotating raid spots (not enough people for 25, too many for 10).

Mar 27, 2012#84

ScytheRexx

SpecialKO said:
The absolute worst part of raiding was how loot rolls added a good 5-10 minutes of arguing to every encounter that people weren't geared out of unless your guild has a specific system that everyone agreed to (which usually only cut the arguing by about half).

Be aware that this system, for now, is only for LFR, which means normal raids (which is often the level used by guilds) won't have the system outside of Bonus Rolls.

I do kind of wish it worked like this for all dungeons and raids though. It would be so refreshing to have whether I get loot or not based on a SINGLE roll of luck rather then two rolls of luck (first roll for the proper loot to drop, second roll to win it) plus the removal of that chance the Arms Warrior steals my tanking shield.

Mar 27, 2012#85

SpecialKO

ScytheRexx said:
Be aware that this system, for now, is only for LFR, which means normal raids (which is often the level used by guilds) won't have the system outside of Bonus Rolls.

Wait, really? Is it so guilds can still shard unwanted items?

Mar 27, 2012#86

ScytheRexx

SpecialKO said:
Wait, really? Is it so guilds can still shard unwanted items?

I think it's more that guilds can easily distribute among themselves, since guilds are often the same 10/25 people. Drama can happen but the guild can work itself out, since the one bringing the drama can be held accountable to the guild.

LFR, being random, means you can join one week and have 24 other unique people compared to the last week. This means everyone is already "out for themselves" and thus loot drama gets worst when people roll on items regardless of spec or even sometimes need, since there is no accountability.

This is designed to remove the group part of looting and individualize it. This way you fight and kill the boss for your own personal chance to roll rather then a small chance your token would drop and then have to fight the dozens of others attempting to take the same token. It removes that conflict.

Also, since all loot is individualized, there are no "loot slots". Rarely a whole raid could get one piece of loot each if they all roll high, and on the other side a whole raid could get nothing if they roll low. A single raid has a chance of getting 0-25 items per boss (0-50 if you count the bonus roll charms).

Mar 27, 2012#87

Shakey

I still don't like the idea. I just don't buy into the idea of a warlock being a tank. It's just my opinion though. Putting them in demon form will also cause the same problems they're trying to fix with druids. You don't get to see your shiny new equipment. I did see boom chickens are going to get astral form now. If they can make a different form that can show equipment, it might work.

ScytheRexx said:
I can partially agree to this.

You see, I like immersion too, but I have limits. Immersion to me needs to be high enough that I get interested in the world (and I do, as anyone can see, I know more about the history of this little fantasy universe then most people probably know regular history), but low enough that is does not make my gameplay suffer for it. This is specifically why I can't stand EvE, because I feel it tries so hard to be a "living universe" that I get bored to tears actually playing it, there is not enough "game" there for me.

In the end, it's about balance, about being open to new gameplay and styles while attempting to keep the qualities that made the immersion so great. A good example of trying for more immersion but ultimately causing problems was the change to more linear questing, it makes each zone much more cohesive and tells a better story, but the lack of unique quest hubs made people burn out on those linear quests extremely fast, it was not balanced to those that want story and those that want speed.

If it makes you feel any better, MoP is not going to let us fly right out the gate like Cataclysm did. They realized allowing us to fly that quickly did mess with the scope of the zones. They felt "tiny" because we never had to slog through them on our ground mounts, which was another thing that just added to the problems of the expansion. On the flip side, there does come a point where you want to be able to get around quickly, and so we need to make sure flying mounts are still going to be around once we hit the cap and the scale of the world loses it's luster.

Eve is obviously on the far end of the spectrum, but there is a middle ground they could work towards. My wish list would be.

Force people to be at an instance entrance to queue for it. It would get people out of the capitals and into the world. It could also make for some interesting pvp situations in pvp servers. Maybe once you're 5 or 10 levels above the instance you can queue from anywhere.
No flying in the capitals. God damn that's annoying.
Slow down flying, or make flying mobs that attack you more common. Or both.
More world bosses. Maybe some that roam an entire area like the fel reavers. I nearly shit myself the first time one of those snuck up on me. I haven't played much in cata, did they add any of these?
Fewer portals.

Mar 27, 2012#88

ScytheRexx

Shakey said:
I still don't like the idea. I just don't buy into the idea of a warlock being a tank. It's just my opinion though. Putting them in demon form will also cause the same problems they're trying to fix with druids. You don't get to see your shiny new equipment. I did see boom chickens are going to get astral form now. If they can make a different form that can show equipment, it might work.

Seeing equipment is not that big of a problem, actually, you should have seen the shitstorm that happened when they removed tree form as a constant shapeshift. It got so bad they are adding it back in as a Glyph for MoP. Druids like their shapeshift forms, it's one of the reasons they picked the class. Warlocks I talk with are fine not seeing the gear in demon form, the only wish I see is they want a valid female version of the model for female characters.

You don't have to like the idea, but at least be straight about it and admit, from a standpoint, it makes sense for a big hulking demon man to take a lot of hits.

Now to answer what you feel will improve the game.

Force people to be at an instance entrance to queue for it. It would get people out of the capitals and into the world. It could also make for some interesting pvp situations in pvp servers. Maybe once you're 5 or 10 levels above the instance you can queue from anywhere.

They attempted something like this by making it that discovering the dungeon was a requirement to even queue for it. Players hated it so much that the requirement was removed in the very next patch. The LFD and LFR tools have been majorly praised as one of the best things to happen to the game in years. You are not going to see people want to revert to the old methods of traveling to dungeons, and any that do are so rare it wouldn't be feasible to cater to them.

No flying in the capitals. God damn that's annoying.

Why exactly? What is so bad about people using flying mounts in capitols? Be aware, I can personally live with this as I am used to it from the old way Dalaran used to work, but I never found it to be such a big deal that having people flying around "annoys" me. It's all just quality of life improvements.

Slow down flying, or make flying mobs that attack you more common. Or both.

Not going to happen. There are many that think the mount flying is already becoming way to slow compared to the world size. As for flying mobs, most people enjoy flying because it is a method of travel that does not have you attacked every few feet. You will find some that consider it boring and want to have "danger" while traveling, but they are few and far between then those that use flying as a safe method of general travel. Again, this would detract from the game in the long run rather then add to it.

More world bosses. Maybe some that roam an entire area like the fel reavers. I nearly shit myself the first time one of those snuck up on me. I haven't played much in cata, did they add any of these?

This is a wish you will be getting, as adding world bosses like Garr in Cataclysm were seen as a positive thing. They will be adding more in the new expansion and are going to push for the Horde and Alliance to compete over killing them.

Fewer portals.

This wish, technically, was already granted. Dalaran used to have city portals to all major cities, but they removed them in favor of only a portal to Stormwind, since that was the new hub and the didn't want people just porting to Dalaran or Shattrath. However, they are not going to remove all the portals they have, as one is a perk (Mage Portals) and the others are required to be able to even do Cataclysm content (Cataclysm Zone Portals). To be honest, I want more portals, I just want the portals to be more spread out. Example, those Emerald Dream trees in Ashenvale, Feralas, Hinterlands, and Duskwood I felt should portal between eachother for higher level druids.

In the end, they will not cut down on portals to an extreme. You will still have basic required portals for zones or class perks, and likely in MoP we will have portals to return to the main continents from Pandaria.

Mar 27, 2012#89

Shegokigo

Quick point on Flying Mobs.

Anyone remember Skettis?

No. Just no.

Mar 27, 2012#90

ScytheRexx

Shegokigo said:
Anyone remember Skettis?

Not nearly as bad as those dragons that liked to fireball you off your mount in Blades Edge. Sure made attempting to do my Ogri'la/Skyguard dailies a lesson in frustration.

Mar 27, 2012#91

SpecialKO

Shakey said:
Force people to be at an instance entrance to queue for it. - No way, that was one of the most frustrating parts of WoW before that. I'm fine with no insta-warp, but queuing as a whole needed to be made less irritating. The endless "LFG H UK 80 Heals/DPS" shit had to stop.

No flying in the capitals. God damn that's annoying. - Wait, why is this part annoying?

Slow down flying, or make flying mobs that attack you more common. Or both. - I am not so down with slowing down flying, but flying mobs to make areas more dangerous is fine by me.

More world bosses. - 100% agreed.

Fewer portals. - Mixed on this one. On the one hand, it made travel much easier. On the other, it made the capital city problem even worse.

So, as I understand it, I need to have real outside quote text to make HB, right?

Mar 27, 2012#92

Shakey

I loved Skettis and Ogri'la. Actually, BC was my favorite xpac world wise. It really wasn't that bad as long as you paid attention. Everybody hates a little extra danger, but it makes you pay attention. Otherwise you just fly around going from quest to quest half asleep. Sometimes a little frustration is good.

The LFD and LFR tools have been majorly praised as one of the best things to happen to the game in years. You are not going to see people want to revert to the old methods of traveling to dungeons, and any that do are so rare it wouldn't be feasible to cater to them.

I know it won't change, and that's fine. I'm just looking and thinking of what made the world interesting. Walking through the huge doors in Blackrock Mountain or finding your way down into the Sunken Temple, it made you feel like you were going somewhere. It feels like dungeons are just there to grind loot as opposed to a part of the world now.

Flying in cities just bugs me. I don't really have a reason other than it does. I don't like seeing a ton of mounts running around everywhere. It wasn't that bad until they decided to put ginormous mounts in the game. It just looks so cluttered.

Mar 27, 2012#93

ScytheRexx

Shakey said:
I loved Skettis and Ogri'la. Actually, BC was my favorite xpac world wise. It really wasn't that bad as long as you paid attention. Everybody hates a little extra danger, but it makes you pay attention. Otherwise you just fly around going from quest to quest half asleep. Sometimes a little frustration is good.

We will have to agree to disagree on this. I never found it all that fun, I don't play games to get frustrated with them, I play them to have fun.

You like the immersion qualities, I can understand that, but WoW is not a just a virtual world, it's a virtual world designed in a way that it plays out like an amusement park. You get in, enjoy yourself without commitment, and get out when you feel like it.

You mentioned how "amazing" things like Sunken Temple and Blackrock Depths were, but when it came down to it what were the more popular dungeons? SM, Deadmine, and Shadowfang Keep. What were the ones usually panned as overly complicated and rarely run by general PuGs? Blackrock Depths, Blackrock Spire, Scholomance, and Maurudon. Why? Because the former were focused adventures, while the latter were giant mazes. Even places like Stratholme were, by the fans themselves, split into two singular dungeons with straight pathways.

This is why ever since BC, they have made every dungeon into the focused hallway, and those that attempted to branch out and become larger, like for instance the re-tuned Zul'Gurub and Zul'Aman, required them to later patch away boss requirements because people were tired of wandering around the whole map.

I hate to say it man, but what you want and what the players of WoW want have taken two entirely different turns. You will not get what you want out of it because people in WoW are looking for an entirely different game, one the have crafted all this time through suggestions and feedback that Blizzard has been trying to fulfill as much as possible. The fans want a game balanced between world and gameplay, rather then making one heavier at the detriment of the other. You want a virtual "world" ala EvE, and that ship sailed a long time ago.

Mar 27, 2012#94

Shakey

Yeah, I get that. It wasn't really the dungeon itself that I was talking about. I think the dungeons that follow a path are better. There's no need to get players lost. It's more the entrance and getting to it. The feeling that it belongs somewhere in the world, it has a place. Seeing what's going on outside of a dungeon adds something to the dungeon itself. New players can queue up for dungeons and never know where it's actually at in the world.
People don't like that, and that's fine. When I try it out again I think I'll try to take it at my own pace. Part of what burned me out before was it all feels so rushed now. I'll maybe take time to visit all the areas and explore rather than rush through quests.

Mar 27, 2012#95

ScytheRexx

Well, to be honest, this never really bothered me because I am an explorer in general. I like going around and finding things, so I always know where the dungeon entrances are. I have, in the past, even suggested that the LFD queue teleport people outside the dungeon instead of inside, so they have to walk in, but that didn't go over well with fans or Blizzard due to the fact it would have caused two load screens and also have been abused for teleport purposes.

Also, if exploring is your passion, maybe you should take up Archeology. It is all about exploring, and if you limit yourself to a ground mount, it's also a pretty damn difficult one.

In the end, definitely take it at your own pace. I play a lot, but I do it always on my own terms. The minute I tell myself I am not having fun, I stop, and I will go a week or more without playing until I get the itch. It's not worth rushing if the rush is not enjoyable.

Mar 28, 2012#96

Shakey

Going back to the new loot system, I don't know how good it would be in LFD. You only get items based on your spec, so you have no chance in collecting off spec items. I know it sucks having DPS grab a tanking item you need, and the tank should definitely get first crack at it, but if it's not needed by the tank there's no reason you shouldn't have a chance at it. No one wants an undergeared tank or healer, so it's the only way many people have to get geared up without having people scream at you constantly. Maybe just remove the need option for everyone unless it matches your spec, instead of class.

Mar 28, 2012#97

ScytheRexx

Ghostcrawler said they are looking into that. The idea right now is to add a toggle that basically tells the game "I am willing to get all loot usable by me, regardless of my spec." and then it will add that to the background loot roll so you can get, say, INT plate armor even though you are playing that minute as retribution.

The only reason they are making it spec specific as default is because they want to make sure people are rewarded something usable for the role they are playing, since that is likely the items they want. Offspec is something most work towards only when they have collected all the mainspec gear possible.

Mar 30, 2012#98

ScytheRexx

Was able to finally update to the new build and check out Pandaria. It's really buggy right now, as I was unable to use half the portals/flight paths and at one point while hearthing on my worgen, found myself stuck at Dalaran.

I have to say though, Pandaria is friggin gorgeous. I can't fly myself, but I ran around for a bit and also took the Pandaren flight path (Which, BTW, are magical kites) between the main Pandaren city and the Horde/Alliance bases in the Jade Forest. Checked out all the details from the trees to the cities to the waterfalls and high hills. There are Hozen everywhere, as they seem to be one of the main enemies of the zone.

Next stop is going to be the new dungeon. They also had an ability to queue for the first scenario, but it keeps telling me I can't do it yet, so either it requires a higher level, or it's bugged.

Mar 30, 2012#99

Weloenstal

If my hunter learns to heal or tank i'll be shocked.

Mar 30, 2012#100

Weloenstal

Eve is obviously on the far end of the spectrum, but there is a middle ground they could work towards. My wish list would be.

Force people to be at an instance entrance to queue for it. It would get people out of the capitals and into the world. It could also make for some interesting pvp situations in pvp servers. Maybe once you're 5 or 10 levels above the instance you can queue from anywhere.

No flying in the capitals. God damn that's annoying.

Slow down flying, or make flying mobs that attack you more common. Or both.

More world bosses. Maybe some that roam an entire area like the fel reavers. I nearly shit myself the first time one of those snuck up on me. I haven't played much in cata, did they add any of these?

Fewer portals.

Oh boy...
I like the current queing system alot and so do most people this is staying fir a fact. Flying is capitals is Epic! everyone does it. Slow down flying?! Are you INSANE??!! I hope they give us grand master flying with at LEAST 350% flying! I'm a speedaholic. now world bosses, I LIKE that one. THIS is a good idea. Fewer portals. No Thanks. I like my portals.

Now it's bad enough that you can't fly till 90, so the'd better at least give us faster flight.

Talent system: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think I made my point on the talent system lol.

Mar 30, 2012#101

ScytheRexx

Weloenstal said:
Talent system: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's really not that bad.

The thing about the old trees, was that the while you had customization in theory, you never actually had that much in practice. So many of the talents were filler that were required for your spec to do his job correctly, so you couldn't really give up certain talents for other ones.

The new talent system basically takes all those required talents and baked them into the class, spec, and abilities. For instance, now Pyroblast naturally does the Hot Streak talent, without ever having to put points into anything.

This leaves them room to make the talents we do have actually matter, doing similar jobs in very unique ways. It will remain to be seen how it plays out in the long run, but what I have messed with so far, I find, to be much better then the old system. I actually have a lot of trouble choosing what I want now.

Mar 30, 2012#102

Shegokigo

And my beta is downloading..... excellent.

Mar 30, 2012#103

ScytheRexx

Shegokigo said:
And my beta is downloading..... excellent.

Gratz

Mar 31, 2012#104

Bowielee

Well, just my 2 cents, and I know that they've pretty much said lore lol in favor of gameplay mechanics, but if they are making monks a tanking class, they SHOULD have cloth tanking gear. Leather doesn't seem right on a monk to me. And now that you've pointed out the demon form of the warlock, even from a lore standpoint it could make sense for tanking.

Doesn't change my dislike of class homogeny, though.

Apr 13, 2012#105

Gared

Got my beta invite yesterday and managed to get the download done last night before it got too terribly late, but as is to be expected, the servers were absolutely packed and there was no way in hell I was getting online. Managed to get online briefly this morning before coming to work. Didn't get much accomplished other than changing from my PvE tanking gear to my PvP healing gear and choosing new talents. I gotta say though, that I love the new talent system. It's so much more fun than plotting out the best way to get a .000000001 percent increase in overall healing effectiveness through spending points in talent trees.

Apr 18, 2012#106

Docseverin

Can some one send me a scroll of resurrection?!

Apr 19, 2012#107

Docseverin

Update: Poe sent me a scroll, thanks for everyone who responded

Apr 24, 2012#108

Piotyr

Yep, I impulsively bought an annual pass to get Diablo 3 and because I got the WoW itch back. What's new?

Apr 24, 2012#109

ScytheRexx

Piotyr said:
Yep, I impulsively bought an annual pass to get Diablo 3 and because I got the WoW itch back. What's new?

Hard to really go over all of it, but I will give the basic rundown of the major changes.

New Race: Pandaren, great new models, very expressive. Not much to say on them.

New Class: Monk, pretty straight forward, though to be honest at 85 they give me a lot of a "Jedi" vibe. They even have a Force Lightening-style attack, a Battle Meditation, and obviously can use various weapons like swords. Still mainly classic monk though (love the flying kick ability). The resource system uses a combination of Energy and Chi. Energy is just like the rogue, and is used by most of the base attacks. Chi is charged up using energy attacks, up to a max of four Chi globes, and does not decay when out of combat. Unlike Holy Power or Combo Points however, Chi attacks don't get more powerful the more Chi you have, instead more powerful attacks will simply use more Chi globes. Combat is usually based around using energy attacks till you build up Chi, unleashing some Chi attacks while the energy recharges, then switch again. It makes for little downtime if done right.

New Talent System: Basically "Spec" and "Talents" have been separated. Choosing a spec now automatically gives you all the skills, bonuses, and masteries that we got in the old talent trees, the ones that allowed you to utilize the spec. The new Talents are skills/passives that come three in a row, 6 rows, each one giving the same form of utility only in a different way (Example, Mage has a defensive tier that gives either a castable Blazing Speed, a new healing shield called Temporal Shield, and the regular old Ice Barrier). Once you pick one skill in a row, the others grey out and can't be chosen, meaning you have to pick what utility will work out better for you. Some like it since it means you can take any skill without suffering performance problems (since most are utility) but others argue it makes choosing talents boring since they don't increase your power as much. I am rather on the fence, I like the idea, but I worry it won't be properly executed.

New Glyphs: Prime Glyphs are gone, we are going back to only Major and Minor glyphs. Major Glyphs alter abilities to do unique things, similar to how they are now, though also taking up some of the old Primes. Minor is much more robust, adding mostly utility or cosmetic changes to the classes. (Example, Druids get a glyph that lets them transform into the old Tree of Life, Paladin's gain a glyph that makes their Avengering Wrath wings cause Slow Fall, and one of my favorites, a warrior glyph that makes it so when my warrior enrages, he lights on fire. Another fun one is a rogue glyph that lets you steal a humanoids appearance when you pick pocket them.)

More Zones: Blizzard learned that having three zones in a row for 82-85 was a real mistake, and gave no room to really keep things interesting. As such they split a few of the larger zones into smaller ones, giving us 7 zones instead of 5. This means we will have at least 2 zones you can level in per level. Also, they admitted that the game was way to linear in quest flow for Cata, so we will see more hubs that can start quests independently of the other towns before it on the questing flow.

New End Game Options: End Game is going to be a lot more interesting. We still have the Dungeons, Heroics, and Raids, with the new LFR system being added to all future raids, making it much more accessible. They also added Challenge Modes and Scenarios, which we have yet to test in the beta. Challenge Modes are basically Heroic 2.0, in which all gear is normalized and the team must work like a well oiled machine to get a good medal for the dungeon, which comes with rewards. With Challenge Modes being the new Heroic, Scenarios go in the other direction. They are basically "mini-dungeons" that will not require a healer or tank, and can be done very quickly for Valor Points. Adding on to all this, they also have Pet Battles, which will play like a weird version of Pokemon, and the Tiller Farm, which will be a daily hub that lets you build your own instanced farm that will give various crafting materials.

New Point System Mechanics: Justice is now going to be the pure point for purchasing dungeon or raid gear, as most of the raid gear will be gotten through the LFR. Valor will instead be utilized as a "upgrading" mechanic. Example, let's say I get a nice helm through Justice Points. I then go gain Valor Points through dungeons, dailies, raids, etc... I can use those points to increase the item level of the helm, bringing it up from the heroic dungeon level all the way to LFR level loot. They said you will not be able to just keep upgrading a low level item till it's more powerful then a legendary, but that you will likely be able to make an item as strong as the next tier above it. No word on if this same system is going to be used for Honor and Conquest.

This is all stuff for MoP. If you are asking about Live, not much changed other then new raids and the LFR. Based on how long ago you left you might get a kick out of Transmog.

Apr 24, 2012#110

Adam

So, went looking at my WoW account and apparently I'm permanently banned. Which is fascinating because I quit the account about two years ago. No scroll of resurrection for me!

Apr 24, 2012#111

Shakey

You might have got hacked. You can petition it and see what happens.

Apr 25, 2012#112

Adam

Got hacked once, I don't think second time is the charm.

Apr 25, 2012#113

Shakey

Honestly, if you quit you had a reason. All the changes they do probably won't make it enjoyable again. You're not missing out. Consider it time saved.

Apr 25, 2012#114

Adam

I quit for a horrible, terrible reason; not because I was particularly tired of the game.

Apr 25, 2012#115

Shakey

Ah, I remember now...

Apr 25, 2012#116

CynicismKills

Watched and read up on the Pet Battle system (implemented in an early form on the beta), it's pretty much Pokemon. I'm not being one of those "hur dur Kung Fu Panda" types either, it really is Pokemon.

Not that this is a bad thing, mind you, I think it'll make for a much more entertaining distraction than dailies.

Apr 25, 2012#117

ScytheRexx

Every time I play it I am going to hum the Pokemon theme in my head.

Apr 25, 2012#118

Shegokigo

Good thing I never watched, played or had anything to do with Pokemon. For me, it's just WoW Pet Battles.

Apr 25, 2012#119

ScytheRexx

That rat is dynamite!

Apr 25, 2012#120

Frank

Wow.....that's fucking shameless.

Apr 25, 2012#121

ScytheRexx

Frank said:
Wow.....that's fucking shameless.

Lucky for Blizzard, Nintendo does not own the rights to cockfighting.

Apr 25, 2012#122

Frank

That's Zynga levels of blatant ripoff.

Apr 25, 2012#123

ScytheRexx

Frank said:
That's Zynga levels of blatant ripoff.

I wouldn't call it a ripoff unless Blizzard added the game systems without any consent from Nintendo. I have a feeling Blizzard likely already talked with Nintendo about it long before they even announce the expansion, like when they added Peacebloom vs Zombies with the full support of PopCap games. The rub is about making sure it's not "the whole game" and instead a mini-game, otherwise Blizzard and Nintendo would be competing.

Apr 25, 2012#124

Adam

ScytheRexx said:
I wouldn't call it a ripoff unless Blizzard added the game systems without any consent from Nintendo. I have a feeling Blizzard likely already talked with Nintendo about it long before they even announce the expansion, like when they added Peacebloom vs Zombies with the full support of PopCap games. The rub is about making sure it's not "the whole game" and instead a mini-game, otherwise Blizzard and Nintendo would be competing.

It couldn't be less of a rip off if they named it "Warkemon"

Apr 25, 2012#125

CynicismKills

Well let's be honest here, it basically is a ripoff in the same vein that Plants VS. Zombies minigame was. Or the 3D Joust daily in Hyjal. Or the countless other pop culture references/quests littered throughout WoW. However, if you tried that P vs. Z quest it wasn't anywhere near as fun as the real game, and didn't play nearly as smooth as it had to work within the confines of another game's script/programming. The Joust daily, to me, is crazy frustrating (sort of like the real Joust, fancy that).

Odds are this Wow-emon thing will be the same, just with more polish as it's one of the selling point of the expansion so far. I can see it being entertaining but I'm willing to bet it won't be anywhere near as fun as plain old Pokemon, so I can't imagine Nintendo's going to care at all (they'd have done something by now if they did).

Apr 25, 2012#126

Adam

To be even more fair, there's nothing particularly unique about Pokemon that hasn't been done a zillion times before either.

Apr 25, 2012#127

Frank

Adam said:
To be even more fair, there's nothing particularly unique about Pokemon that hasn't been done a zillion times before either.

Really? Because it was pretty unique when it came out.

Apr 25, 2012#128

Adam

Frank said:
Really? Because it was pretty unique when it came out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail_Order_Monsters

Apr 25, 2012#129

CynicismKills

That sounds more like Monster Rancher to me, though in the end it's all the same basic idea I guess.

Back OT, it's really just Monks and the art of the new areas keeping me interested in the xpac, I hope I get an invite at some point down the line to try out the class.

Apr 25, 2012#130

CynicismKills

Also the DK PvP set was just released, and it's Metal as hell.

Apr 25, 2012#131

Ravenpoe

CynicismKills said:
Also the DK PvP set was just released, and it's Metal as hell.

*drools*

Apr 25, 2012#132

Shegokigo

Who cares if it's a rip-off? Just out of curiosity? How does it make a difference if it's enjoyable to play in game and keeps some from entering the boredom doldrums?

Why am I defending this so much? Because I plan on making a killing selling combat pets.

Apr 25, 2012#133

CynicismKills

Yeah, Engineers who can make those mini Fel Reavers and such are going to make some goooooood gold, I bet. Not to mention anyone who feels like farming the rare companions.

Apr 25, 2012#134

Shegokigo

I'm pretty bummed now that I didn't get a Mini-Thor after all.

One thing I'm not on board with the system so far is the fact that you can gain xp from challenging other players. Way too open for abuse.

Apr 25, 2012#135

ScytheRexx

From what I saw though it was not that much. Someone really out to abuse the system would be better off just making a farm bot.

Apr 25, 2012#136

Shegokigo

ScytheRexx said:
From what I saw though it was not that much. Someone really out to abuse the system would be better off just making a farm bot.

Except the whole, you know, you get xp if you win, nothing if you lose, have a bot set up to play against someone all night every night, sell lvl 99 pets and crash the economy. No biggie.

Apr 25, 2012#137

ScytheRexx

Shegokigo said:
Except the whole, you know, you get xp if you win, nothing if you lose, have a bot set up to play against someone all night every night, sell lvl 99 pets and crash the economy. No biggie.

I see what you mean now, you meant leveling pets and selling them. To be honest I think I missed where they said you can sell "pre-leveled" pets, as I swore you could buy unique pets or wild pets, but you would always have to level them yourself once you "learned" the pet, otherwise some of those achievements are going to be pretty easy for someone with enough gold. Can you point out where they mentioned the ability to buy pre-leveled ones?

Also pretty sure the max level is 25.

Apr 25, 2012#138

Shegokigo

I'd have to go through the Blizzcon panels but they specifically said you could level and trade.

They DID say that Unique pets weren't going to be tradeable/sellable in the most recent Ghostcrawler interview though. So stuff like Blizzcon/CE pets won't be tradeable.

Apr 25, 2012#139

ScytheRexx

I will have to go through the panels again sometime, I think they said it was an idea, but I could have swore they didn't mention it as a for certain. That might just be my memory being bad though.

In the end, a lot of it will depend on how long it will take to even level the pets. I don't think they are going to make it as difficult as leveling a character, they even have an achievement for leveling 75 pets to 25. If the pet leveling takes, like, two weeks, you might not see as much of a market for anything other then rare ones, plus more saturation of ones being sold will bring down the price.

Apr 25, 2012#140

Shegokigo

Still, a silly thing to allow through. Zero reason to allow xp duels between players. Give another incentive, not sure what, but somethingelse.

Apr 25, 2012#141

ScytheRexx

I just don't see what else they can give. It will be less stressful just to go out and fight wild pets if they don't give something lucrative from fighting other players, and XP seems to be the only thing out of the system you gain in fights, unless they allow you to steal other peoples pets, which would be even worst.

Apr 25, 2012#142

Shegokigo

Perhaps "points/currency" for pet purchases? Vanity items for pets, special "points/currency" only pets etc.

Apr 25, 2012#143

AshburnerX

Red and White baseball caps? Belts with red and white orbs on them? Perhaps you need a certain level to try and tackle a mysterious group of 4 elite trainers?

Apr 25, 2012#144

figmentPez

I'm not a WoW player, but just throwing an idea out there. Reward wins with a special consumable that's equivalent to something that can be gotten another way. Call it a Rare Candy. Limit the number of Rare Candies that can be held at once, and don't make them tradeable or worth anything to sell. That will give an incentive to fight with your pets regularly, but only as much as you're actually consuming Rare Candy while playing the larger game.

May 4, 2012#145

ScytheRexx

Account-Wide Mounts have just been activated in a buggy form on the beta. Looks like some of those obscure mounts I have will finally get some usage again!

Though it is likely to change, right now class and craft mounts are not even restricted. Ever wanted to see your paladin riding a flaming demon horse? Better hurry and try it out now by getting a warlock on there!

May 4, 2012#146

CynicismKills

Finally got my beta invite and have the client updated. Going to try out the starting Monk zones, then goof around a bit in the 85+ zones. Hoping Monk is as awesome as I've been expecting.

May 6, 2012#147

HowDroll

Sooo... I'm booting up WoW again. I've got a little time off of school, and having something mindless to do a few evenings a week would be great. I haven't played since WOTLK, so I want to start a new toon and run through all the new Cataclysm content; I doubt I'll get to the point of having the time to do any serious raiding or PVP, but are there any classes I should avoid playing right now because they downright suck? I was leaning toward being a hunter.

May 6, 2012#148

CynicismKills

HowDroll said:
Sooo... I'm booting up WoW again. I've got a little time off of school, and having something mindless to do a few evenings a week would be great. I haven't played since WOTLK, so I want to start a new toon and run through all the new Cataclysm content; I doubt I'll get to the point of having the time to do any serious raiding or PVP, but are there any classes I should avoid playing right now because they downright suck? I was leaning toward being a hunter.

I had a lot of fun with Hunter in Cata, so no argument here. There's all kinds of awesome-looking beasts to tame now, plus it's one of the easiest classes to level (not that any are really difficult now). I wouldn't say any class really sucks, the only sticking point is DPS can take a lot longer to get a group in the random dungeon queue compared to a tank or healer. The Burning Crusade content feels really slow and sloppy compared to the rest of the leveling content, though, so be prepared for that.

May 6, 2012#149

Ravenpoe

CynicismKills said:
I had a lot of fun with Hunter in Cata, so no argument here. There's all kinds of awesome-looking beasts to tame now, plus it's one of the easiest classes to level (not that any are really difficult now). I wouldn't say any class really sucks, the only sticking point is DPS can take a lot longer to get a group in the random dungeon queue compared to a tank or healer. The Burning Crusade content feels really slow and sloppy compared to the rest of the leveling content, though, so be prepared for that.

Outland sucks SOOO MUCH. I wish you could just skip past levels 60-70 and skip straight to northrend.

That said, I'll be unretiring again soon, and seeking to fill that new toon itch. Anyone have any awesome guilds they want to recommend before I just make yet another toon on moon guard?

May 6, 2012#150

CynicismKills

The upside is the new Azeroth questing can get you to 59 or 60 depending on how many dungeons you get in along with it. I generally use Blasted Lands to finish off Azeroth, and end up level 60 by the time I head to BC. Once there I try to get all the dungeon quests asap and keep myself queued at all times, generally don't quest much until Nagrand as that's the easiest one to gather a shitload of quests and do them in one or two circuits of the zone. The second I ding 68 I move to Northrend, and things get a lot faster.

May 6, 2012#151

Shegokigo

Nothing is faster leveling than Random Dungeon queing from 1-85.

Except Random Dungeon queing from 1-85 with heirlooms.

There's zero reason to deal with TBC if you don't like it.

May 6, 2012#152

ScytheRexx

Whenever I hit Outland I just run battlegrounds and dungeons until I hit 70. Rumors are that Outland will go through a revamp sometime though.

May 6, 2012#153

CynicismKills

Is moving the BC quest givers into the dungeon an xpac thing, or have they done that already? I haven't leveled a character through BC in awhile. If the quest givers are in there then yeah, you don't even need to go to Outland anymore.

May 6, 2012#154

ScytheRexx

CynicismKills said:
Is moving the BC quest givers into the dungeon an xpac thing, or have they done that already? I haven't leveled a character through BC in awhile. If the quest givers are in there then yeah, you don't even need to go to Outland anymore.

Yes they are all there, regardless of owning Cataclysm.

May 6, 2012#155

CynicismKills

Oh, well in that case screw Outlands, you can probably get from 60-68 standing around in Stormwind queued for dungeons.

May 6, 2012#156

Shegokigo

CynicismKills said:
Oh, well in that case screw Outlands, you can get from 60-68 standing around in Stormwind queued for dungeons.

And you can do it in less than 1-2 days.

With heirlooms I was getting a level every dungeon to every other dungeon and the runs took no more than 20mins at a time.

May 9, 2012#157

ScytheRexx

The Pandaren dances have come out, and the tears coming from the haters are extra delicious.

They see me shuffling... they hating.

May 9, 2012#158

Frank

The female one is fucking terrible. It's as lazy as the original Tauren dance.

May 9, 2012#159

ScytheRexx

Frank said:
The female one is fucking terrible. It's as lazy as the original Tauren dance.

Which is funny, because it was the dance people have been asking for, the caramelldansen. Besides it's way better then the male worgen dance.

May 9, 2012#160

Frank

I had to look that up and now I'm even more disgusted. Fuck gamers are lame.

May 9, 2012#161

Ravenpoe

The facial expressions on the male dance are epic.

May 9, 2012#162

Dei

The facial expressions on the male dance make me impatient for new character models.

May 9, 2012#163

ScytheRexx

Dei said:
The facial expressions on the male dance make me impatient for new character models.

Ain't that the truth.

May 10, 2012#164

ScytheRexx

Was not expecting this. One step closer to just having a master community.

Cross-Realm Zones

The jist of it: Zones that have a low population will be able to dynamically pull in other players from other realms to fill it up seamlessly. This can also be used with RealID/Battletags, so you can group up with anyone regardless of server and quest around the world with them.

May 10, 2012#165

Gared

Not too shabby an idea, coming from someone who seems to consistently pick the most underpopulated realms in the game (not intentionally). However, I especially like this little tidbit:

Q. What about zones that are already overpopulated, like new race starting zones?

With this technology, we can also flag zones to allow for more than one copy of that zone per realm. Players on that realm will be split among those copies in order to alleviate problems due to overpopulation. Players won’t normally see or interact with those on a different instance of their zone, although joining a party will relocate all party members to a single instance of that zone.

Multiple instances of high-pop areas per realm is a very, very nice idea. Hopefully they can pull it off well, it'd be nice to avoid waiting in line to kill quest mobs.

May 10, 2012#166

ScytheRexx

It will be great for when MoP comes out, since that is often when each of the new zones is overflowing with people. Also be nice for major cities.

May 10, 2012#167

Frank

How will Auction Houses and loot work with that?

May 10, 2012#168

Gared

Loot will work like any other group looting situation, Auction Houses will rely on the player's home realm's auction house.

May 10, 2012#169

Frank

ScytheRexx said:
Also be nice for major cities.

Can you imagine a global AH? Monopolizing goods would become nigh impossible. Something that fucking ruined my server's AH. One guy basically took over the whole thing.

May 10, 2012#170

Ravenpoe

Gared said:
Not too shabby an idea, coming from someone who seems to consistently pick the most underpopulated realms in the game (not intentionally). However, I especially like this little tidbit:

Multiple instances of high-pop areas per realm is a very, very nice idea. Hopefully they can pull it off well, it'd be nice to avoid waiting in line to kill quest mobs.

Neat, SWTOR already does this, though I always thought it was a little too quick to split the population, as even big cities never seemed to have huge amounts of people in it.

I'm going to assume that populating zones from other realms will only allow realms of the same type. (RP, PVP, etc)

May 10, 2012#171

Dei

Ravenpoe said:
Neat, SWTOR already does this, though I always thought it was a little too quick to split the population, as even big cities never seemed to have huge amounts of people in it.

I'm going to assume that populating zones from other realms will only allow realms of the same type. (RP, PVP, etc)

Yep, unless you are grouping with RealID friends, in which case you will be in a zone that corresponds to the group leaders realm. (If you are on a PvE server, and your friend is on a PvP server, your friend as leader means you are in a PvP zone and vice versa.)

May 10, 2012#172

Vrii

Frank said:
Can you imagine a global AH? Monopolizing goods would become nigh impossible. Something that fucking ruined my server's AH. One guy basically took over the whole thing.

Have I ever mentioned the time I made ~100k gold in a day?

May 11, 2012#173

ScytheRexx

Frank said:
Can you imagine a global AH? Monopolizing goods would become nigh impossible. Something that fucking ruined my server's AH. One guy basically took over the whole thing.

I agree, but we are still a bit off from something like that. This is just another step, so we will have to see where it goes for things like mailing, AH, etc...

May 11, 2012#174

Dei

I def. think I am going to need a Scroll of Rez once MoP is closer. Spending most of my time sewing right now though, so no time yet!

May 11, 2012#175

ScytheRexx

Dei said:
I def. think I am going to need a Scroll of Rez once MoP is closer. Spending most of my time sewing right now though, so no time yet!

I can send you one anytime, just ask.

May 13, 2012#176

ScytheRexx

Black Market is finally being tested, and looks like it was exactly what the recent rumors were saying.

Basically, "NPCs" will put up extremely rare items for ridiculous amounts of gold for you to bid on. Every wanted Ashes of Al'ar? Well it has a chance of appearing on the Black Market for a base price of 20k gold. Once players notice it you know the bidding war is going to be extremely epic.

Now I see a good and a bad side to this. On the good side, it will be a great gold sink, one that the game desperately needs. The fact it's an auction means those people with loads of cash can bid eachother up and sooner or later get rid of those massive stockpiles.

One the bad side, I know a lot of people that are going to be pretty angry, considering someone will basically purchase the mount they deemed to have "earned". The whole "I got my ashes killing Kael'thas nearly a thousand times." only for another guy to come up, "I got mine for 50k gold! Who's Kael'thas? LOL"

Personally, I like it. I always wanted more ways for people to get rare items like mounts and pets, and this is a great way to do it while improving the economy.

May 13, 2012#177

Frank

Anyone can farm Kael'Thas now. Who cares about old rare mounts?

I forgot, it's WoW. The same folk that bawled their fucking eyes out about the archeology tank mount that invalidated the gates of Ahn'Qiraj Sceptre holder mount.

May 14, 2012#178

Shegokigo

Black Market is the best thing to happen to the WoW Economy in a long time. Let me tell you, it NEEDED it.

May 14, 2012#179

ScytheRexx

Shegokigo said:
Black Market is the best thing to happen to the WoW Economy in a long time. Let me tell you, it NEEDED it.

I agree, but people are still going to be butt-hurt over it. It will all die-down after awhile though.

What we have seen does not even mean it will be up all the time. They are not going to have daily Ashe of Al'ar on the BMAH, but it will appear randomly for people to have a bid war over. We won't be seeing the whole server riding it like many people seem to be thinking.

The biggest thing that worries me, other then all the whining that the "special snowflakes" will be making, is that this may cause gold seller sales to spike. I hope Blizzard has a plan to curtail that issue before the expansion hits shelves.

May 14, 2012#180

CynicismKills

It's the same butt-ache they got from people going in and soloing/5-manning content for achieves/mounts/etc. People will bitch, the rest of the playerbase won't care, and WoW life will spin on. I'm glad to see a big gold sink outside Legendary quests come in, I know people who were reaching the cap because they had nothing left to spend on.

Also yeah, MMO-Champ seems to think it'll be rotating/random stuff up, or maybe even none of what they've seen on the beta so far (as in they're placeholders for the time being). Neat to see things like the original 40 Naxx armor sets on there, though.

May 14, 2012#181

ScytheRexx

CynicismKills said:
Also yeah, MMO-Champ seems to think it'll be rotating/random stuff up, or maybe even none of what they've seen on the beta so far (as in they're placeholders for the time being). Neat to see things like the original 40 Naxx armor sets on there, though.

It is going to be a great way to bring back old items that they can't fit into newer content, examples being the Zulian Tiger, Amani Warbear, etc... that were all lost during the revamps.

I expect to see a lot of old favorites showing up just because Blizzard now has a place to do it without trying to stuff them into new, existing content.

May 14, 2012#182

CynicismKills

I'd love to see the Zulian mounts show up again, I lost the raptor to someone back in Vanilla who quit a week later. Granted I've never been great at gathering gold, though. I can't stand dailies and my server's AH is totally borked thanks to the low population.

May 14, 2012#183

ScytheRexx

CynicismKills said:
I'd love to see the Zulian mounts show up again, I lost the raptor to someone back in Vanilla who quit a week later. Granted I've never been great at gathering gold, though. I can't stand dailies and my server's AH is totally borked thanks to the low population.

With all the cross-realm stuff happening, let's hope we get a cross-realm AH. It would help level everything out I think, due to massive competition.

May 14, 2012#184

CynicismKills

Yeah, maybe keeping it within the battlegroup or something, or just match one low pop with one high pop, I dunno. When Inferno Rubies can get up to 800g a pop, you know there's a problem..

May 14, 2012#185

CynicismKills

Sometimes the Daily Blink hits comedy gold: http://www.thedailyblink.com/2012/05/the-black-market-wed-like-to-see/

May 21, 2012#186

BananaHands

Uhhh, we doing the res scroll deal over here? I'd like that fancy mount.

May 21, 2012#187

Shegokigo

Only the person giving out the Res Scroll gets the mount, not the returning player.

May 21, 2012#188

BananaHands

Yeah I dig. I'm hangin' on WA Hordeside.

May 24, 2012#189

ScytheRexx

Daily Quest Cap removal just became official. No more being limited to 25 Daily Quests. They said they have 100s of them in MoP and didn't want to make people feel limited to only doing a few.

May 24, 2012#190

Shegokigo

ScytheRexx said:
Daily Quest Cap removal just became official. No more being limited to 25 Daily Quests. They said they have 100s of them in MoP and didn't want to make people feel limited to only doing a few.

So much for fixing the economy..... then again, DQ farmers already were doing tons of them everyday on all their chars.

May 24, 2012#191

ScytheRexx

Shegokigo said:
So much for fixing the economy..... then again, DQ farmers already were doing tons of them everyday on all their chars.

Yes the point, to me, is moot, since most farmers will just do it on more then one character.

Hell, I do daily quests each day on 6 characters, bare barely stomach it.

May 25, 2012#192

Ravenpoe

Epic drops in the next expansion will include Fudgie the Whale.

Jun 6, 2012#193

ScytheRexx

Oh god, the nostalgia, it's killing me.

Jun 6, 2012#194

AshburnerX

Oh god... it's all music from Warcraft and Warcraft 2.

Jun 6, 2012#195

CynicismKills

Oh, that's cool, hahaha.

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