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X-Men relationship chart

Jul 7, 2009#1

CynicismKills

Hopefully this hasn't been posted at some point, I can't remember:

http://www.geekologie.com/2009/07/07/xm ... rs%202.jpg

Wolverine and Cable are fucking whores.

Jul 7, 2009#2

sixpackshaker

which whores are they fucking?

Jul 7, 2009#3

Bowielee

Why doesn't Iceman just come out as Bi already

Jul 7, 2009#4

Chibibar

Bad boy do get all the chicks

in this case, super heroine.

Jul 7, 2009#5

CynicismKills

sixpackshaker said:
which whores are they fucking?

I'm not sure, I tried to read their charts but it made me forget sixth grade.

Jul 7, 2009#6

Krisken

Wolverine is a whore, Cable had serious relationships or married his :heythere:

Poor Agent Jake. He didn't even have an infatuation.

Jul 7, 2009#7

Shegokigo

Northstar ----> Iceman :rofl:

Wolverine ----> Rose Wu :Leyla:

She-Hulk ----> Juggernaut :bush:

Jul 7, 2009#8

sixpackshaker

Shegokigo said:
She-Hulk ----> Juggernaut :bush:

Did you feel the Earth move?

Jul 7, 2009#9

Shegokigo

sixpackshaker said:
Shegokigo said:

She-Hulk ----> Juggernaut :bush:

Click to expand...

Did you feel the Earth move?

I felt reality move.

Jul 7, 2009#10

sixpackshaker

It would also help if the designer picked colors that did not look so much alike when drawn in a thin line. Also make a bigger chart or bigger font so we can read their names.

I still can not figure out what that brown line between Wolverine and Storm is...

Jul 7, 2009#11

Bowielee

sixpackshaker said:
It would also help if the designer picked colors that did not look so much alike when drawn in a thin line. Also make a bigger chart or bigger font so we can read their names.

I still can not figure out what that brown line between Wolverine and Storm is...

Storm took it up the pooper?

Jul 7, 2009#12

GeneralOrder24

Dazzler's a whore too!

Jul 7, 2009#13

GasBandit

Jul 7, 2009#14

Shegokigo

GasBandit said:

Jul 7, 2009#15

V.Bond

Magneto ----> Rogue :bush:

Mystique ----> Iceman!?!?

Seeing the Scarlett Spider on the list made me nostalgic.

Iron Man ----> EMMA FROST :eek:

Jul 7, 2009#16

figmentPez

Vagabond said:
Magneto ----> Rogue :bush:

Why does this surprise you? They had a child together in the Age of Apocalypse alternate timeline.

Jul 7, 2009#17

V.Bond

figmentPez said:
Vagabond said:

Magneto ----> Rogue :bush:

Click to expand...

Why does this surprise you? They had a child together in the Age of Apocalypse alternate timeline.

I don't even attempt to remember all the X-Men canon, much less the alternate storylines, kudos to you though.

Jul 7, 2009#18

bigcountry23

figmentPez said:
Vagabond said:

Magneto ----> Rogue :bush:

Click to expand...

Why does this surprise you? They had a child together in the Age of Apocalypse alternate timeline.

Um, he also took her to the Savage Land so they could bang (Mutant powers don't work there IIRC).

Jul 7, 2009#19

Shegokigo

Vagabond said:
I don't even attempt to remember all the X-Men canon, much less the alternate storylines, kudos to you though.

Age of Apoc was canon.

Jul 7, 2009#20

Rubicon

figmentPez said:
Vagabond said:

Magneto ----> Rogue :bush:

Click to expand...

Why does this surprise you? They had a child together in the Age of Apocalypse alternate timeline.

alternate timelines shouldnt be factored into the chart..

and wow, storm has been around..

Jul 7, 2009#21

Shegokigo

Mav said:
figmentPez said:

Vagabond said:

Magneto ----> Rogue :bush:

Click to expand...

Why does this surprise you? They had a child together in the Age of Apocalypse alternate timeline.

Click to expand...

alternate timelines shouldnt be factored into the chart..

and wow, storm has been around..

Shegokigo said:
Age of Apoc was canon.

Jul 7, 2009#22

Frankie Williamson

When did Magneto have an infatuation with Wasp?

Jul 7, 2009#23

Rubicon

wait.. since when was AoA canon? Just because Dark Beast crossed over doesn't mean ya know, Wolvie lost a hand or Rogue got it on with a man 20+ years her senior..

Jul 7, 2009#24

GeneralOrder24

I'm not sure that line represents the AoA relationship...If you look at the sabertooth/psylock one, it specifically says AOA on a dotted red line.

...which bigcountry already said.

Jul 7, 2009#25

phil

Vagabond said:
Iron Man ----> EMMA FROST

That's not as surprising as Iron Man----> ONLY Emma Frost.

Word? Shit man, even Alternate Timeline She-hulk slept with The Juggernaut.

Jul 7, 2009#26

Shannow

Shegokigo said:
Vagabond said:

I don't even attempt to remember all the X-Men canon, much less the alternate storylines, kudos to you though.

Click to expand...

Age of Apoc was canon.

Jul 7, 2009#27

Shegokigo

Shannow said:

Shhh, they haven't taken the bait yet. :ninja:

I only got a nibble so far.

Jul 7, 2009#28

Covar

Frankie said:
When did Magneto have an infatuation with Wasp?

Secret Wars.

Jul 7, 2009#29

Enresshou

Shegokigo said:
Northstar ----> Iceman

Wolverine ----> Rose Wu

She-Hulk ----> Juggernaut :bush:

That was pretty much my response when I first learned Juggernaut and She Hulk had a one-night stand. The two ideas thrust (hah) to the forefront were, "Damn...hope they weren't on the top floor of the hotel," and, "He calls it...the Juggerthrust."

Jul 7, 2009#30

Krisken

Enresshou said:
Shegokigo said:

Northstar ----> Iceman

Wolverine ----> Rose Wu

She-Hulk ----> Juggernaut :bush:

Click to expand...

That was pretty much my response when I first learned Juggernaut and She Hulk had a one-night stand. The two ideas thrust (hah) to the forefront were, "Damn...hope they weren't on the top floor of the hotel," and, "He calls it...the Juggerthrust."

Jul 7, 2009#31

Shegokigo said:
Shannow said:

Click to expand...

Shhh, they haven't taken the bait yet. I only got a nibble so far.

Technically, it was, since characters from that universe made the jump over to the regular Marvel universe when everything went back to normal.

Plus, I'm not up on X-Men lore/canon/mythology (aside from AoA, because it's my first and favourite X-Men story), but I'm pretty sure Magneto and Rogue had a thing going post-AoA because fans asked for it or something. Or was that Magneto's clone?

Ugh. My head is starting to hurt. This is why I very rarely read X-Men, unless it's phenomenal (AoA, Morrison's run, Whedon's run, the classic stuff from the 80s, etc).

Jul 7, 2009#32

Chazwozel

Shegokigo said:
Shannow said:

Click to expand...

Shhh, they haven't taken the bait yet. I only got a nibble so far.

nerd baiting.... I like it :thumbsup:

Jul 8, 2009#33

JCM

Shegokigo said:
Mav said:

figmentPez said:

Vagabond said:

Magneto ----> Rogue :bush:

Click to expand...

Why does this surprise you? They had a child together in the Age of Apocalypse alternate timeline.

Click to expand...

alternate timelines shouldnt be factored into the chart..

and wow, storm has been around..

Click to expand...

Shegokigo said:

Age of Apoc was canon.

Click to expand...

This.

AoA Maneto and Rogue do exist in the Marvel Universe, unless the chart reads "616" universe relationship chart, its pretty much Xmen.

Jul 8, 2009#34

Shannow

The timeline was corrected, and as such, it did not happen. Some characters were ripped out of the timeline and into the regualar, current timeline (Dark beast), but for all intents and purposes, it is an alternate timeline, not the regular 616 U (it is 295), and thus, not true canon.

Jul 8, 2009#35

JCM

Shannow said:
The timeline was corrected, and as such, it did not happen. Some characters were ripped out of the timeline and into the regualar, current timeline (Dark beast), but for all intents and purposes, it is an alternate timeline, not the regular 616 U (it is 295), and thus, not true canon.

Guess you cry whenever you read DC (which is a worse fuckup than MArvel.?

Its canon, Earth-295.

Bishop killed it, but timeline can still be entered (as seen in Exiles), and just akin to any alternate future (like Cable´s several futures, 2099, Spidergirl, etc) its part of Marvel canon.

However, its not 616.

Jul 8, 2009#36

Shannow

What did I say about DC anywhere? Yes, it is fucked up over there, and they did the collapse/reexpansion then crossovers...but nowhere was it mentioned here, and has no bearing on this conversation.

And I was just pointing out that its really not true cannon. By your logic, all of Ultimates U is cannon...and hell, so is all of the Zombie U, because they can be entered.

unless you are going with the more general definition of everything is canon, and that it is not just the 616.

Jul 8, 2009#37

^ This isn't a facepalm,this is a "Ow, my head". Alternate realities, time travel and X-Men & Legion of Superheroes mythologies give me a headache.

Jul 8, 2009#38

JCM

Shannow said:
And I was just pointing out that its really not true cannon. By your logic, all of Ultimates U is cannon...and hell, so is all of the Zombie U, because they can be entered.

Yes its canon.

Its part of the Marvel U, the Eiles (as well as any dimension-popping character) can access it. I think you are confusing "fanfiction" and "licensed movie/comic" with "Marvel Universe". Its canon. It just happened in another timeline.

A easier way to grasp this is remembering that all those silly DC comics of the 30s and 40s are canon. Just a different Earth than the one we are reading about.

And yes, Ultimate Marvel is canon. Probably in a future issues of Exiles or later Zombie marvel story someone will give it a label "EarthXXXX". So one can say that "Magneto and Rogue marriage is not 616 Marvel", but to claim that its "non-canon", ala fanfiction, its pretty much going against every Marvel and DC Editor and writer, and while I havent read Xmen since the 80´s but for the odd storyline, its pretty much their Universe.

What did I say about DC anywhere?

Guess using DC´s better labelling of timelines to explain the concept of "canon, but not the same timeline" was too difficult?

How about "Marvels says its canon, and labels it Earth-295, even adding AoA characters to their published character databases, whatever you say or try to pass off as "just logic" here says has no bearing on its canonicity". :slywink:

Jul 8, 2009#39

North_Ranger

At least they're still far away from Soap Opera Sex, or what I like to call Bold and Beautiful Incest.

"Okay, so I have seriously dated X, I have been married to his brother - twice - and had a kid with him who grew up into adulthood in two seasons. After that I hooked up with their father, with whom I had a pair of twins, but not before having a lesbian love triangle with X's evil half-sister from Paraguay and his mother. Now I am dating X's son from his marriage to my rival, and hooking up with the boyfriend of my daughter from my previous marriage with X's brother."

Jul 8, 2009#40

Bowielee

Guys, the argument over the cannonicity of AoA doesn't have any bearing on the Rogue/Magneto connection. They were intimate in the Savage Land in the 616 universe. The line between Mags and Rogue is Single Date/Kiss/One night stand, so it doesn't necessarily mean that they bumped uglies, though, if I recall the comic was never 100% clear whether they actually did the deed or not.

As a side note, the chart specifies when they're talking about an AoA character.

Jul 8, 2009#41

You sure about that, North Ranger? Let's discuss Cable's history, shall we?

Cable is the child of Cyclops and Madyline Pryor (who, herself, turns out to be an evil clone of Jean Grey) and shot off into the future as a baby to...protect him...or something (I've never been clear on this). It turns out he's actually a chosen warrior in the future to take down Apocalypse, so he goes back in time to help team up with the X-Men to destroy him.

...actually, that was easier than I thought. Of course, Cable is just one of many utterly bland 90s badass creations that look cool but have no real value to them at all.

...except when playing the straight man in a series with Deadpool.

Jul 8, 2009#42

JCM

True, as Magneto did bag Rogue in 616, and yeah, Marvel until 2000 was rather shy of showing who had sex with who, not that this was a bad thing, because now whenever I see Luke Cage I´ll be thinking "this is the guy who did anal up Aria´s arse"

Just noting the stupidity of saying "NOT CANON!!" when the company that publishes the comic says its canon, has characters from it popping all over, and has several characters in 616 visit 295/AoA.

Jul 8, 2009#43

North_Ranger

But did he get his future groove on with his mother/(step)sister/cousin/aunt/niece/evil twin from Paraguay?

Jul 8, 2009#44

Bowielee

ThatNickGuy said:
You sure about that, North Ranger? Let's discuss Cable's history, shall we?

Cable is the child of Cyclops and Madyline Pryor (who, herself, turns out to be an evil clone of Jean Grey) and shot off into the future as a baby to...protect him...or something (I've never been clear on this). It turns out he's actually a chosen warrior in the future to take down Apocalypse, so he goes back in time to help team up with the X-Men to destroy him.

...actually, that was easier than I thought. Of course, Cable is just one of many utterly bland 90s badass creations that look cool but have no real value to them at all.

...except when playing the straight man in a series with Deadpool.

The Askani came back in time to save Cable from the transmode virus that Apocalypse had infected him with. If he hadn't been brought to the future, he would have died.

I agree that Cable was created by the maker of the worst utterly bland 90s badasses (who also created Deadpool, BTW), but once they wrested him out of Leifeld's hands, he became a much more 3 dimensional character. The Executioner's Song is one of my favorite Xmen storylines.

Jul 8, 2009#45

Shegokigo

Bowielee said:
Guys, the argument over the cannonicity of AoA doesn't have any bearing on the Rogue/Magneto connection.

You. Shh! :humph:

Jul 8, 2009#46

Shannow

JCM said:
Shannow said:

And I was just pointing out that its really not true cannon. By your logic, all of Ultimates U is cannon...and *, so is all of the Zombie U, because they can be entered.

Click to expand...

Yes its canon.

Its part of the Marvel U, the Eiles (as well as any dimension-popping character) can access it. I think you are confusing "fanfiction" and "licensed movie/comic" with "Marvel Universe". Its canon. It just happened in another timeline.

A easier way to grasp this is remembering that all those silly DC comics of the 30s and 40s are canon. Just a different Earth than the one we are reading about.

And yes, Ultimate Marvel is canon. Probably in a future issues of Exiles or later Zombie marvel story someone will give it a label "EarthXXXX". So one can say that "Magneto and Rogue marriage is not 616 Marvel", but to claim that its "non-canon", ala fanfiction, its pretty much going against every Marvel and DC Editor and writer, and while I havent read Xmen since the 80´s but for the odd storyline, its pretty much their Universe.

What did I say about DC anywhere?

Click to expand...

Guess using DC´s better labelling of timelines to explain the concept of "canon, but not the same timeline" was too difficult?

How about "Marvels says its canon, and labels it Earth-295, even adding AoA characters to their published character databases, whatever you say or try to pass off as "just logic" here says has no bearing on its canonicity". :slywink:

Jesus Christ, you like to make an agrument and an insult for any reason, huh? All I was saying that since the timeline was prevented, it is not now a part of the actual history of that 616. It did not occur in what is now regular comics.

I even pointed out that when I said canon, I meant in the current actual goings on of the 616, and that you were referencing the overall universe. Or at least I thought I did in there. if it was not clear, than sorry.

Jul 8, 2009#47

Shegokigo

Shannow: I'm talking about 616 only canon.

JCM: I'm talking about all of Marvel U canon.

Shegokigo: :popcorn:

Jul 8, 2009#48

Shannow

Thats about it.

Jul 8, 2009#49

JCM

Shannow said:
JCM said:

Shannow said:

And I was just pointing out that its really not true cannon. By your logic, all of Ultimates U is cannon...and *, so is all of the Zombie U, because they can be entered.

Click to expand...

Yes its canon.

Its part of the Marvel U, the Eiles (as well as any dimension-popping character) can access it. I think you are confusing "fanfiction" and "licensed movie/comic" with "Marvel Universe". Its canon. It just happened in another timeline.

A easier way to grasp this is remembering that all those silly DC comics of the 30s and 40s are canon. Just a different Earth than the one we are reading about.

And yes, Ultimate Marvel is canon. Probably in a future issues of Exiles or later Zombie marvel story someone will give it a label "EarthXXXX". So one can say that "Magneto and Rogue marriage is not 616 Marvel", but to claim that its "non-canon", ala fanfiction, its pretty much going against every Marvel and DC Editor and writer, and while I havent read Xmen since the 80´s but for the odd storyline, its pretty much their Universe.

What did I say about DC anywhere?

Click to expand...

Guess using DC´s better labelling of timelines to explain the concept of "canon, but not the same timeline" was too difficult?

How about "Marvels says its canon, and labels it Earth-295, even adding AoA characters to their published character databases, whatever you say or try to pass off as "just logic" here says has no bearing on its canonicity". :slywink:

Click to expand...

All I was saying that since the timeline was prevented, it is not now a part of the actual history of that 616. It did not occur in what is now regular comics.

So Exiles is not a regular 616 comic?

Again, is canon. End of story, I´d love to help you make your own company to publish your won Marvel comic, but until then, as far as today´s Marvel is concerned, its canon. Not 616 universe though.

Jul 8, 2009#50

Shannow

Wow, just wow. Fine, let me rephrase..not part of the main (616) universe. jesus. That better for you, hmmm?

Looking back at my orginal post, I amde the error of referencing the 616 as true canon, not clarifying. Sorry it struck a nerve there.

Jul 8, 2009#51

JCM

No nerves struck. Now back to the topic at hand-

Why didnt Gambit get laid more often?

Jul 8, 2009#52

Iaculus

JCM said:
No nerves struck. Now back to the topic at hand-

Why didnt Gambit get laid more often?

That staff... clearly compensating for something.

Jul 8, 2009#53

JCM

Iaculus said:
JCM said:

No nerves struck. Now back to the topic at hand-

Why didnt Gambit get laid more often?

Click to expand...

That staff... clearly compensating for something.

Maybe thats why magneto got ahead.

I cant find scans in English, but didnt he get engaged to Rogue once?

Jul 8, 2009#54

Shegokigo

JCM said:
No nerves struck. Now back to the topic at hand-

Why didnt Gambit get laid more often?

He used to, before he met Rogue, then became obsessed and stopped womanizing.

The real question is: Why didn't Gambit take Rogue to Savage Land?

Jul 8, 2009#55

Drachenherz

Jul 8, 2009#56

Shegokigo

Andi said:

Funny coming from someone with the MEDIC from TF2 as his avatar. :slywink:

Jul 8, 2009#57

figmentPez

Oh, and if anyone thought this chart was a lot of work, check out:
http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/spotlight/

:Leyla:

The amount of work that went into these...

Anyway, the peritnent section from Rogue's Biography

...Rogue was about to give up, since she didn’t want to “kill“ Ms. Marvel for a second time, when suddenly Magneto stepped in. He rendered both unconscious and, when Rogue woke up, Magneto had used machinery to drain / kill Carol‘s body and restore Rogue to full power, without the Carol personality in her head. [Uncanny X-Men #269]

Having nowhere else to go, Rogue remained with Magneto for a while to recuperate. Since her absorption powers were temporarily scrambled by the power transfer, they could touch and had the beginnings of a relationship. The pair found themselves caught in a war over the Savage Land, and they tried to aid Shield and Ka-Zar to defend the land from Zaladane and the Savage Land Mutates. Rogue‘s abilities (both her own and those of Ms. Marvel) resurfaced halfway during the conflict, right in time to change the odds in their favor. However, Rogue was turned away by Magneto's bloodthirstiness when he killed Zaladane, and she ended their romance before it even began.

Jul 8, 2009#58

Shannow

JCM said:
No nerves struck. Now back to the topic at hand-

Why didnt Gambit get laid more often?

Because he was a shitty character?

-- Wed Jul 08, 2009 2:58 pm --

Andi said:

He says, by posting on an internet forum.

Jul 8, 2009#59

Drachenherz

Shegokigo said:
Andi said:

Click to expand...

Funny coming from someone with the MEDIC from TF2 as his avatar. :slywink:

Funny thing is, I never played TF2 in my life. I got the avatar because of the uncanny similarity between the medic and a portrait of mine. :-P

Jul 8, 2009#60

Mr. Lawface

Andi said:
Shegokigo said:

Andi said:

Click to expand...

Funny coming from someone with the MEDIC from TF2 as his avatar. :slywink:

Click to expand...

Funny thing is, I never played TF2 in my life. I got the avatar because of the uncanny similarity between the medic and a portrait of mine. :-P

You should try TF2. It's a good game.

Jul 8, 2009#61

Drachenherz

Mr. Lawface said:
Andi said:

Shegokigo said:

Andi said:

Click to expand...

Funny coming from someone with the MEDIC from TF2 as his avatar. :slywink:

Click to expand...

Funny thing is, I never played TF2 in my life. I got the avatar because of the uncanny similarity between the medic and a portrait of mine. :-P

Click to expand...

You should try TF2. It's a good game.

Yeah, heard of it. But I no good in shooters, so I better leave it be. :Leyla:

Jul 10, 2009#62

@Li3n

Shegokigo said:
JCM said:

No nerves struck. Now back to the topic at hand-

Why didnt Gambit get laid more often?

Click to expand...

He used to, before he met Rogue, then became obsessed and stopped womanizing.

The real question is: Why didn't Gambit take Rogue to Savage Land?

Sinister took out part of his brain once.... so he was an excuse for anything stupid he does...

Jul 10, 2009#63

twitchmoss

*reads the thread*

Jul 10, 2009#64

Jay

Wow, Wolverine has like... a highway of lines leading to him.

Next traffic report on Logan highway at 5!

Jul 10, 2009#65

Covar

Bowielee said:
I agree that Cable was created by the maker of the worst utterly bland 90s badasses (who also created Deadpool, BTW), but once they wrested him out of Leifeld's hands, he became a much more 3 dimensional character. The Executioner's Song is one of my favorite Xmen storylines.

be honest [strike:231la05a]Deathstroke[/strike:231la05a]Deadpool was created by Marv Wolfman and George Perez way back in 1980.

Jul 10, 2009#66

Bowielee

Comparing Deathstroke to Deadpool is kind of retarded. The only thing they really have in common is that they are mercenaries.

Jul 10, 2009#67

twitchmoss

Shegokigo said:
Shannow: I'm talking about 616 only canon.

JCM: I'm talking about all of Marvel U canon.

Shegokigo:

Isaac Hayes: i'm talking 'bout shaft

and i can dig it

Jul 10, 2009#68

Covar

Bowielee said:
Comparing Deathstroke to Deadpool is kind of retarded. The only thing they really have in common is that they are mercenaries.

and their names and their costumes. Until actual talented people got a hold of Deadpool he was just a shameless ripoff of deathstroke the terminator.

Jul 10, 2009#69

SpecialKO

Not to stomp completely on the Shannow/JCM canonicity nerd-rage, but AoA Sugar Man was firmly established as being responsible for Genosha's original state of affairs when they had a mutant slave population.

I like how Logan's got a mass of red lines in the middle of the chart.

However, I find this chart incomplete. Deadpool's unrequited love for Bea Arthur is canonical, yet not present.

Jul 10, 2009#70

phil

Bowielee said:
Comparing Deathstroke to Deadpool is kind of retarded. The only thing they really have in common is that they are mercenaries.

I wouldn't say so. They both look somewhat similar, use the same types of weapons, have healing factors, and even their real names are similar. Slade Wilson, Wade Wilson.

Even in some of the comics they point out the similarities.

Jul 10, 2009#71

twitchmoss

Jul 10, 2009#72

Bowielee

I stand corrected. It just proves my point how unoriginal and bland all characters created by Leifeld are. However, many of the characters he created ended up being made awsome by people who actually knew what to do with them.

Jul 10, 2009#73

Covar

Bowielee said:
I stand corrected. It just proves my point how unoriginal and bland all characters created by Leifeld are. However, many of the characters he created ended up being made awsome by people who actually knew what to do with them.

yea, Deadpool is an awesome character now. people like Gail Simone really did a lot to make him more than just a Deathstroke rip.

Jul 10, 2009#74

@Li3n

I think you guys are confusing continuity with canon... I mean pre-crisis DC is canon, but it doesn't affect the continuity... unless you're Barry Allen.... but he got better.

also, you do the Deathstroke in the Deadpool...

Jul 10, 2009#75

JCM

@Li3n said:
I think you guys are confusing continuity with canon... I mean pre-crisis DC is canon, but it doesn't affect the continuity... unless you're Barry Allen.... but he got better.

also, you do the Deathstroke in the Deadpool...

Pre-Crisis DC is continuity two, only with stuff that keeps on going outside the normal Earth, and yes, it does affect normal DC, after all we have the pre-crisis Superman becoming a Black Lantern and Superboy Prime fucking things around. To clear up the confusion that canon and continuity are different, here´s what wiki says on the Golden Age Superman-

When the Golden Age of Comic Books came to a close in the 1950s, most of DC Comics' superhero comic books ceased publication. The commencement of the Silver Age saw characters such as the Flash and Green Lantern revamped for more modern times, ignoring or abandoning established continuity and thus creating a clean break between the two eras. It was later established that the Golden Age heroes and Silver Age heroes actually lived on Earth-Two and Earth-One respectively, separate parallel Earths in a single Multiverse.
However, Superman was one of the few exceptions; his stories had been published without interruption since his debut in 1938's Action Comics #1. This caused a continuity problem, specifically that Superman was simultaneously a member of the Justice Society of America on Earth-Two and also member of the Justice League of America on Earth-One. It was eventually established that there were two Supermen.[1] The "current", Silver Age Superman was Kal-El from Earth-One, while the Golden Age Superman was Kal-L from Earth-Two.
Several minor differences between the two Supermen were established to make the distinction clearer. The names "Kal-El", "Jor-El" and "Jonathan and Martha Kent" on Earth-One became "Kal-L", "Jor-L" and "John and Mary Kent" on Earth-Two. Kal-L's S-shield symbol was slightly different. Stories featuring both Supermen also indicated that Kal-L was the older of the two, being depicted as late middle-aged with greying hair at the temples, while his Earth-One counterpart was a youthful man of modern times.
This not only allowed DC Comics to bring Superman's Golden Age stories back into continuity, but also led them to experiment with a Superman who wasn't the mainstream one. Thus, several differences between Kal-L and the more well-known Kal-El were introduced. Kal-L eventually revealed his dual identities of Clark Kent and Superman to the woman he loved, the Lois Lane of Earth-Two, and they got married.[2] Their early marital life was depicted in the feature "Mr. & Mrs. Superman" in DC's Superman Family series.

for DC, their golden age heroes and stories are in in continuity, just happening elsewhere, just a different Earth.

In Marvel, we have the dimension-hopping "The Exiles" labelling and putting everything from 2099 and Marvel Zombies to Age of apocalypse and MC2 as different dimensions.

So its canon. And part of continuity. Minus the retcons, of course.

Jul 11, 2009#76

@Li3n

Eh... dude, that's pre-1stcrisis... then after Earth-2 no longer existed. Also, Earth-1 Supes had a different continuity then Earth-2 Supes, which is what i meant.

But of course i'm just needlessly complicating it by trying to separate canon and continuity.

Let's just go with the fact that AoA isn't in 616 continuity anymore...

Jul 11, 2009#77

*rubs his temples* Ow, my head.

Jul 11, 2009#78

JCM

@Li3n said:
Also, Earth-1 Supes had a different continuity then Earth-2 Supes, which is what i meant.

Same continuity, just a different Earth. Think of Marvel 616 and Earth 1 as LA, and lets say 2099 and Earth 2 as New York.

A story of a character from LA will basicall show whats happening in LA and have him meet people in LA, but that doesnt rule out happenings in NY affecting his story, or characters from NY (or in Marvel´s case, AoE characters/DC´s case, Earth-1 characters) from messing around.

Same continuity. Unless we´re talking about All-star, Ultimate or What if.

Let's just go with the fact that AoA isn't in 616 continuity anymore.

The Exiles have gone to it, post-Bishop, so its still accessible to any dimension-hopping character.

Jul 11, 2009#79

SpecialKO

JCM said:
@Li3n said:

Also, Earth-1 Supes had a different continuity then Earth-2 Supes, which is what i meant.

Click to expand...

Same continuity, just a different Earth. Think of Marvel 616 and Earth 1 as LA, and lets say 2099 and Earth 2 as New York.

A story of a character from LA will basicall show whats happening in LA and have him meet people in LA, but that doesnt rule out happenings in NY affecting his story, or characters from NY (or in Marvel´s case, AoE characters/DC´s case, Earth-1 characters) from messing around.

Same continuity. Unless we´re talking about All-star, Ultimate or What if.

Let's just go with the fact that AoA isn't in 616 continuity anymore.

Click to expand...

The Exiles have gone to it, post-Bishop, so its still accessible to any dimension-hopping character.

AoA is also why Genosha is the way it is in 616 continuity (Sugar Man even showed up as recently as the Endangered Species crossover). It is also why Madelyne Pryor is still around in 616.

AoA is very much a part of 616 continuity (especially if they do what Dark Beast suggested a while back and bring back X-Man).

Jul 11, 2009#80

CynicismKills

I feel like you're all trying to map the Human Genome in here.

Sadly I think that'd be less complicated.

Jul 11, 2009#81

Bowielee

TeKeo said:
JCM said:

@Li3n said:

Also, Earth-1 Supes had a different continuity then Earth-2 Supes, which is what i meant.

Click to expand...

Same continuity, just a different Earth. Think of Marvel 616 and Earth 1 as LA, and lets say 2099 and Earth 2 as New York.

A story of a character from LA will basicall show whats happening in LA and have him meet people in LA, but that doesnt rule out happenings in NY affecting his story, or characters from NY (or in Marvel´s case, AoE characters/DC´s case, Earth-1 characters) from messing around.

Same continuity. Unless we´re talking about All-star, Ultimate or What if.

Let's just go with the fact that AoA isn't in 616 continuity anymore.

Click to expand...

The Exiles have gone to it, post-Bishop, so its still accessible to any dimension-hopping character.

Click to expand...

AoA is also why Genosha is the way it is in 616 continuity (Sugar Man even showed up as recently as the Endangered Species crossover). It is also why Madelyne Pryor is still around in 616.

AoA is very much a part of 616 continuity (especially if they do what Dark Beast suggested a while back and bring back X-Man).

Not to throw a monkey wrench here, but this line of thinking would also make all the multiverses in the main DC universe continuity due to the existing of Power Girl and The original wondergirl (can't remember her name at the moment), or any other refugee from another earth, like Superboy Prime.

Jul 11, 2009#82

SpecialKO

Bowielee said:
Not to throw a monkey wrench here, but this line of thinking would also make all the multiverses in the main DC universe continuity due to the existing of Power Girl and The original wondergirl (can't remember her name at the moment), or any other refugee from another earth, like Superboy Prime.

Any DC continuity that is mentioned as part of "52" is "in continuity". This includes the current version of Earth-2, where Powergirl is from.

This would be true of Superboy Prime's universe as well, except that it was established in continuity that his universe no longer exists (at least until the next crisis

).

IMO, there are degrees of interaction here that make the difference. DC's Elseworlds rarely (if ever, in fact, as best as I can be certain) interact with the main continuity. Vertigo is tough because the circumstances behind its authorship and editorial decisions have effectively pushed it out of continuity with regular DC, even though they were unquestionably linked before.

AoA has had a large number of interactions with 616 Marvel that have had long-term consequences, but they also benefit enormously from having that interaction been established before Marvel's continuity-numbering system had any consequence outside of Captain Britain/Excalibur comics. Same argument goes for the Supreme Power universe.

However, Ultimate, and to a lesser extent 2099 since the Exiles completely retconned it, have more or less not had any consequences on 616, and are effectively "out of continuity".

We are such a bunch of nerds.

[schild:30lndqm7]NERDS![/schild:30lndqm7]

Jul 11, 2009#83

JCM

Bowielee said:
TeKeo said:

JCM said:

@Li3n said:

Also, Earth-1 Supes had a different continuity then Earth-2 Supes, which is what i meant.

Click to expand...

Same continuity, just a different Earth. Think of Marvel 616 and Earth 1 as LA, and lets say 2099 and Earth 2 as New York.

A story of a character from LA will basicall show whats happening in LA and have him meet people in LA, but that doesnt rule out happenings in NY affecting his story, or characters from NY (or in Marvel´s case, AoE characters/DC´s case, Earth-1 characters) from messing around.

Same continuity. Unless we´re talking about All-star, Ultimate or What if.

Let's just go with the fact that AoA isn't in 616 continuity anymore.

Click to expand...

The Exiles have gone to it, post-Bishop, so its still accessible to any dimension-hopping character.

Click to expand...

AoA is also why Genosha is the way it is in 616 continuity (Sugar Man even showed up as recently as the Endangered Species crossover). It is also why Madelyne Pryor is still around in 616.

AoA is very much a part of 616 continuity (especially if they do what Dark Beast suggested a while back and bring back X-Man).

Click to expand...

Not to throw a monkey wrench here, but this line of thinking would also make all the multiverses in the main DC universe continuity due to the existing of Power Girl and The original wondergirl (can't remember her name at the moment), or any other refugee from another earth, like Superboy Prime.

But they are. Power girl and other characters from other dimensions mean that the said dimensions exist, and are in continuity.

Its just another location. And just wait a few months and DC's gonna bring back some character or threats from another Earth/multiverse, so its all basically continuity.

Jul 12, 2009#84

@Li3n

JCM said:
]But they are. Power girl and other characters from other dimensions mean that the said dimensions exist, and are in continuity.

No... Power Girl is from pre-Crisis Earth-2, which atm doesn't exist according to DC... the 52 are new ones that just resemble the old ones...

Same continuity, just a different Earth. Think of Marvel 616 and Earth 1 as LA, and lets say 2099 and Earth 2 as New York.

A story of a character from LA will basicall show whats happening in LA and have him meet people in LA, but that doesnt rule out happenings in NY affecting his story, or characters from NY (or in Marvel´s case, AoE characters/DC´s case, Earth-1 characters) from messing around.

Same continuity. Unless we´re talking about All-star, Ultimate or What if.

Unless people in NY are all clones of people in LA your analogy is awful...

And the Zombieverse already tied 616 to Ultimate like 3 times, and Marvel considers What If's part of th Multiverse...

What i meant was more like Supes case, where all his adventures where published continually, and there's no clear point where Golden and Silver Age Supes started being different... none of the stories from WW2 are in continuity for Silver Age Earth-1 Supes etc.

Or Spiderman... it's canon that he was married to MJ, but at the moment it doesn't affect his continuity, which has been altered by Mephisto...

But of course after the initial post i realized pretty fast how stupid it was, as american comics books are a huge jumbled mess when it comes to continuity and canon... and any attempt at making sense of it will fail...

Jul 12, 2009#85

@Li3n said:
JCM said:

]But they are. Power girl and other characters from other dimensions mean that the said dimensions exist, and are in continuity.

Click to expand...

No... Power Girl is from pre-Crisis Earth-2, which atm doesn't exist according to DC... the 52 are new ones that just resemble the old ones...

Actually, after Infinite Crisis, she remembers the old Earth 2 and she's now the last survivor of that particular Earth 2. Then, they had a story where she met up with the characters from the NEW Earth 2, who wondered where their Superman went to...

...and then ran into the Power Girl from THAT universe.

....

Damnit, here comes that headache again.

Jul 12, 2009#86

JCM

ThatNickGuy said:
@Li3n said:

JCM said:

]But they are. Power girl and other characters from other dimensions mean that the said dimensions exist, and are in continuity.

Click to expand...

No... Power Girl is from pre-Crisis Earth-2, which atm doesn't exist according to DC... the 52 are new ones that just resemble the old ones...

Click to expand...

Actually, after Infinite Crisis, she remembers the old Earth 2 and she's now the last survivor of that particular Earth 2. Then, they had a story where she met up with the characters from the NEW Earth 2, who wondered where their Superman went to...

...and then ran into the Power Girl from THAT universe.

....

Damnit, here comes that headache again.

Then it will be retconned, or DC will do yet another reboot and start with Earth 2000 or something, and all headaches will increase.

But of course after the initial post i realized pretty fast how stupid it was, as american comics books are a huge jumbled mess when it comes to continuity and canon... and any attempt at making sense of it will fail..

Which is why I barely buy american comics that arent creator-owned, because most Marvel and DC titles are just whoring out and making stories that wont be canon or matter, because as soon as that other new hot writer who will move another paltry 10,000 copies comes along, it will all be retconned.

Hurray for american indepedent comics, Seinen manga and manhua, that have the balls to tell a story and actually end it.

Jul 12, 2009#87

Yeah, it's pretty much why I'm starting to hate mainstream comics. There's a friend of mine who calls all the time to tell me me who's dead, who came back, who's wearing a new costume, etc and I just want to scream "I DON'T CARE!" because everything will eventually get reset back to the status quo, anyway. I mean, the mythologies pretty much remain intact. Superman will fight Luthor and spends time with Lois. Batman fights the Joker and hangs out with Alfred and Robin. They'll have temporary changes where "nothing will ever be the same again!" and "Everything you know is a lie!" but it all gets retconned away by the next creative team and it all goes back to square one.

Fortunately, American comics also have Vertigo comics, where there's actual development of story and characters.

Jul 12, 2009#88

Green_Lantern

ThatNickGuy said:
Yeah, it's pretty much why I'm starting to head mainstream comics. There's a friend of mine who calls all the time to tell me me who's dead, who came back, who's wearing a new costume, etc and I just want to scream "I DON'T CARE!" because everything will eventually get reset back to the status quo, anyway. I mean, the mythologies pretty much remain intact. Superman will fight Luthor and spends time with Lois. Batman fights the Joker and hangs out with Alfred and Robin. They'll have temporary changes where "nothing will ever be the same again!" and "Everything you know is a lie!" but it all gets retconned away by the next creative team and it all goes back to square one.

Fortunately, American comics also have Vertigo comics, where there's actual development of story and characters.

Wait, are you sure you meant that?

Jul 12, 2009#89

Fixed it. Was writing that while eating breakfast.

Jul 12, 2009#90

JCM

Dont worry, it happens to all of us.

And seeing that American comics are left with the top five comics barely hitting 100-200 thousand, with them being old 30-year-to-60-year old IP, and the rest not selling more than 100,000, the american comic book industry has basically lost all but a few sad nerds who still enjoy the whoring out of their fave characters, while smaller markets ala Japan, Brazil, South Korea and France has sales of 4-10 million (China's at 20 million for their weekly manhuas, but then theyve got a billion-something people).

Heck, the American (weekly) Shounen Jump sells at 400 thousand weekly in the US.

Thankfully image, Dark Horse and Vertigo still keep giving us awesome new comics, and sometimes the big two manage to get something awesome done (Green Lantern corps), so there's still hope.

Jul 12, 2009#91

SpecialKO

Speaking of non-US comics...

Is there a good french BD torrent site out there? I've been looking for Marini's "Les Aigles de Rome", but even getting family in Europe to send it to me is pretty pricey for what it is, and I'm skeptical of his writing ability since this is his first doing both the art and story.

I tried the usual everything-under-the-sun places but the torrents there are never seeded for something so relatively obscure.

Jul 12, 2009#92

Frankie Williamson

JCM said:
Dont worry, it happens to all of us.

And seeing that American comics are left with the top five comics barely hitting 100-200 thousand, with them being old 30-year-to-60-year old IP, and the rest not selling more than 100,000, the american comic book industry has basically lost all but a few sad nerds who still enjoy the whoring out of their fave characters, while smaller markets ala Japan, Brazil, South Korea and France has sales of 4-10 million (China's at 20 million for their weekly manhuas, but then theyve got a billion-something people).

Heck, the American (weekly) Shounen Jump sells at 400 thousand weekly in the US.

Thankfully image, Dark Horse and Vertigo still keep giving us awesome new comics, and sometimes the big two manage to get something awesome done (Green Lantern corps), so there's still hope.

Image puts out some good stuff too.

Ha ha ha ha ha!

Ok, Robert Kirkman puts out some good stuff too.

Jul 12, 2009#93

@Li3n

TeKeo said:
Speaking of non-US comics...

Is there a good french BD torrent site out there? I've been looking for Marini's "Les Aigles de Rome", but even getting family in Europe to send it to me is pretty pricey for what it is, and I'm skeptical of his writing ability since this is his first doing both the art and story.

I tried the usual everything-under-the-sun places but the torrents there are never seeded for something so relatively obscure.

Your best chance would be some french person tipping you off to a french tracker...

Jul 12, 2009#94

Yeah, there's still been some really great Big Two stuff in the last few years that are relatively safe from the giant crossovers:

-Captain America (referencing crossovers, but can still be read on its own pretty safely)
-Iron Fist
-Nova
-Guardians of the Galaxy (pretty much all the galactic stuff since the first Annhilation epic has been awesome)
-Green Lantern (and GL Corps)
-All Star Superman
-Criminal (if you cound Marvel's Icon imprint)
-Hulk (wellll...Planet Hulk was awesome and World War Hulk was kinda fun; Loeb's Hulk has stunk)
-Incredible Hercules (just going by what I've heard; too broke to buy it, yet)

Jul 13, 2009#95

Bowielee

ThatNickGuy said:
-Guardians of the Galaxy (pretty much all the galactic stuff since the first Annhilation epic has been awesome)

Frankly, you could have tipped me over with a feather when I found out they brought this book back. I read it all the time when I was a kid.

Is the new book in the same continuity as the original, or is this a new alternate future?

Jul 13, 2009#96

@Li3n

Actually it's in the present Marvel timeline... it stars Star-Lord, Rocket Raccoon, Phila Vel, Gamora, Moondragon, Adam Warlock and some others... and they're based in a severed Celestial head... BUY IT!

Jul 13, 2009#97

JCM

ThatNickGuy said:
Yeah, there's still been some really great Big Two stuff in the last few years that are relatively safe from the giant crossovers:

-Old 30-70 year old characters/IP in stories that wont matter when the next writer decides to change it
-Old 30-70 year old characters/IP in stories that wont matter when the next writer decides to change it
-Old 30-70 year old characters/IP in stories that wont matter when the next writer decides to change it
-Old 30-70 year old characters/IP in stories that wont matter when the next writer decides to change it
-Old 30-70 year old characters/IP in stories that wont matter when the next writer decides to change it
-Old 30-70 year old characters/IP in stories that wont matter when the next writer decides to change it
-Old 30-70 year old characters/IP in stories that wont matter when the next writer decides to change it
-Old 30-70 year old characters/IP in stories that wont matter when the next writer decides to change it
-Old 30-70 year old characters/IP in stories that wont matter when the next writer decides to change it
-Old 30-70 year old characters/IP in stories that wont matter when the next writer decides to change it
-Old 30-70 year old characters/IP in stories that wont matter when the next writer decides to change it
-Old 30-70 year old characters/IP in stories that wont matter when the next writer decides to change it
-Old 30-70 year old characters/IP in stories that wont matter when the next writer decides to change it
-Criminal (if you cound Marvel's Icon imprint)
-Old 30-70 year old characters/IP in stories that wont matter when the next writer decides to change it
-Old 30-70 year old characters/IP in stories that wont matter when the next writer decides to change it
-Old 30-70 year old characters/IP in stories that wont matter when the next writer decides to change it

No thanks, Im not an idiot to buy stories that wont matter.

I miss the old days of DC having the balls to do (and END) Transmetropolitan, Hitman, The invisibles, Preacher, Sandman, et al, heck the only comics are buy are those related to the Green Lantern Corps (with shitloads of new characters and corps). Not that Marvel ever had the balls to do that.

You know, end a story. Because there will always be idiots buying the same shit, and as long as the top ten comics are the same fucking Superman/Xmen/Batman, american comics will never be taken seriously as quality literature, or anything but a subculture for Marvel and DC fans to get their monthly old IP whoring with sales even lower than the shittiest kiddie manga or unknown French BD.

Jul 13, 2009#98

Shannow

Jul 13, 2009#99

@Li3n

JCM said:
-Old 30-70 year old characters/IP in stories that wont matter when the next writer decides to change it

Click to expand...

No thanks, Im not an idiot to buy stories that wont matter.

How exactly does a story matter if it ends and it doesn't affect anything that comes after it, because nothing comes after it?!

I mean i'd understand if you hated the lack of closure or something, but it's not exactly like you can't just read the story as a stand alone and ignore the retcon if you don't like it...

Jul 13, 2009#100

Wow. You DOUBLED my list! But here's the thing with my list:

-All Star Superman DID end. It was 12 issues and that was it. It's a self contained maxi-series within its own universe, contained Superman mythology and some of the best Superman stories ever told.

-Almost all the titles that you listed are Vertigo titles which: a) Have one creative team (or at least one writer) throughout its entire run and b) Has a planned ending from the very beginning. Hitman ending had nothing to do with DC and everything to do with Ennis and McCray. They were given great freedoms to do the book and THEY chose to end it. Ennis also (Warning: Hitman ending spoiler behind the black!) [spoiler:2wainwij]killed of Monagan (sp?) at the end to ensure DC couldn't touch him. Maybe he'll come back as a Black Lantern.

[/spoiler:2wainwij]

-There's nothing wrong with particular RUNS of a comic series by creative teams , which sometimes get to have a great send off when the creative team is finished. For example, Geoff Johns' run (no pun intended) on Flash. Er, his previous one. It was great stuff and you could safely read it and that's it. Ditto for Rucka's run on Wonder Woman. Sure, they continue on with a new creative team, but the runs are enjoyable at the time and there's some really great writing and art in there. I think once Brubaker's run on Captain America finishes (he's going into the third and final act of it, now), people will really look back on it as probably the best run on Captain America since Kirby and Simon.

-Speaking of Green Lantern, do you think the book is going to end when Johns moves onto other projects? Of course not. It's DC's cash cow right now and they'll continue to bleed it for all its worth even after Blackest Night and whatever else Johns has planned. So, why does that get a free pass when everything going on right now could easily be washed away by the next creative team, as well? GL has gone through big changes before and it will again. Like I said above, it's a great RUN on the book(s) right now and is highly enjoyable.

Jul 13, 2009#101

JCM

ThatNickGuy said:
-All Star Superman DID end.

Yet another retelling of Superman. Wohoo, how many times can DC waste good talent telling the SAME FUCKING story?

ThatNickGuy said:
Hitman ending had nothing to do with DC and everything to do with Ennis and McCray.

Last TBP had Ennis saying that he killed Hitman and got a contract done to not turn hitman into yet another IP milked to the ground.

ThatNickGuy said:
-There's nothing wrong with particular RUNS of a comic series by creative teams , which sometimes get to have a great send off when the creative team is finished. For example, hot new writer!´s run (no pun intended) on old IP. Ditto for hot new writer!´s run on yet another old IP. Old IP old IP.....

Heh, the classic "lets put a hot writer so that people will kepp buying the same old shit"

Lets try and imagine something here. Close your eyes, and imagine all that talent working on Wolverine/Batman/etc stories that wont matter when the next writer retcons it.

Now imagine all of them working creating new comics.

Yes, NEW.

Imagine new stories, characters, worlds. Ones that they, like any other media, end, after telling a good story, then move on to make another good story.

Only american comics lives solely on the whoring of old characters. If people would stop buying them (most are, as sales are steadily reducing), one day the big two would have to grow up and give us something new.

ThatNickGuy said:
-Speaking of Green Lantern, do you think the book is going to end when Johns moves onto other projects?

[/quote]Didnt you read?

I dont give a shit about Green Lantern. I love the corps. Thosuands of new worlds, characters, countless stories and corps, thats the most creativity shown by mainstream DC in a decade, as soon as its back to "hey its the same old shitty Green Lantern" Im using my money to buy mahua, bds or seinen manga, thank you.

Sorry, I can only stand so many retellings of the same fucking story and different takes on the same character. Thank god tv and books survive mostly on new IP, otherwise I´d be stuck watching:

-Frank Miller´s inspector gadget, now with guns under the new MAX imprint

-Thundercats X, now with new members He-man and Captain Planet!

-The A-Angels (A-Team joined by the Charlie´s angels), but who is the mysterious white MrT?

-the 50th retelling of Knight Rider, hey look, now its a grittier writer who makes him say bad words, and its All-Star Knight rider.

-the 30th "hot" writer on Agatha cristie´s Hercule Poirot, now back after being exiled to another planet and with a group of angry midgets to back him.

-The Ring Wars! The Hobbits now disagree with Aragorn´s new drinking rules, and are joining with the elves to fight against the humans and Dwarves. Oh, and the Naz´gul will reveal his face in public.

-Ultimate Harry Potter. We have wand bazzokas, bitch.

-The Godfather vs It. Enough said.

Jul 13, 2009#102

JCM said:
Yet another retelling of Superman. Wohoo, how many times can DC waste good talent telling the SAME smurfing story?

That's the thing with Superman at this point: changes won't be made, but stories within the mythology can be told that are still good stories. And All Star Superman is one of those great pieces of writing. It's just different interpretations of the character at this point. Besides, Morrison HAS done things of his own, such as Seaguy, Invisibles, Animal Man (kind of, but he made it his own property that was untouchable for years), etc.

ThatNickGuy said:
Last TBP had Ennis saying that he killed Hitman and got a contract done to not turn hitman into yet another IP milked to the ground.

Exactly, but he still had creative control over the character to do so. Or it was DC being nice, at least, and respect his wishes. He still ended the series on his own terms.

JCM said:
Lets try and imagine something here. Close your eyes, and imagine all that talent working on Wolverine/Batman/etc stories that wont matter when the next writer retcons it.

Now imagine all of them working creating new comics.

Yes, new.

Imagine new stories, characters, worlds. Ones that they, like any other media, end, after telling a good story, then move on to make another good story.

Oh! You mean like Rucka cutting his teeth in the business with Whiteout (movie coming in September!)? Or his creator owned series, Queen & Country? Or his series of Atticus Kodiak novels? Or Checkmate, which was DC owned, but was pretty much his baby from the start?

Geoff Johns, on the other hand, probably loves playing with all the toys of the DC universe. In fact, he excels there because he brings in a lot of continuity from decades. I don't know IF he would be good at creating his own property. Maybe he would, maybe he wouldn't. But he makes good money doing what he does now and clearly enjoys it.

That's thing thing, though, about "whoring these old characters". They make money. They've always made money and always WILL make money. X-Men sells basically on name, alone, thanks to fanboys, but that's no different than Star Wars fanboys wanting to buy hair from George Lucas when he trims his beard.

These writers aren't forced to write the "same old shit". A lot of times, it's the only way to make a living in the business because new properties are so hit and miss that you never know what will sell and what won't. Mike Mignola lucked out with Hellboy, but before that, he was working with both companies for years, too. But not every property is the next Hellboy. For every successfuly new property or comic, there are probably hundreds that get ignored or cancelled. There's no way to predict what will be a hit and what won't, so yeah, the companies of course are going to focus on the properties that have consistently made them money for 30-70 years.

ONLY American comics whore out old characters? What about that Dragonball thing, huh? Transformers started in Japan and is, in fact, more whored out over there, if that's even possible. Godzilla is basically the same old shit every time. Power Rangers. In fact, Japan has just as many major properties that they whore out and bring back with a different "creative team" or version than the US has ever done. Doctor Who has been whored out longer than Star Wars or Star Trek and really, it hasn't changed all that much, either. It's still the Doctor running around in his Tardis, time travelling and fighting Daleks. It may not be comics, specifically, but it's still the same idea, is it not? It's longtime properties.

Hell, there's that Shakespeare guy that still has his work redone in different variations for hundreds of years. And that's still the same old shit, too, right?

Sales might be steadily reducing, but there are always, always, ALWAYS going to be fanboys who just want to see Gambit and Rogue get back together that will keep them afloat.

As for the TV shows and movies and such...wasn't there a revived show that just finished up? Battlestar...something or other. New creative team, etc etc. V's coming back soon, too. Hollywood's no different than comics. They'll sooner stick with properties that are guaranteed to make them money rather than risking on something that's new that the audience might not pay money to see.

Jul 13, 2009#103

SpecialKO

ThatNickGuy said:
ONLY American comics * out old characters? What about that Dragonball thing, huh? Transformers started in Japan and is, in fact, more whored out over there, if that's even possible. Godzilla is basically the same old poop every time. Power Rangers. In fact, Japan has just as many major properties that they * out and bring back with a different "creative team" or version than the US has ever done. Doctor Who has been whored out longer than Star Wars or Star Trek and really, it hasn't changed all that much, either. It's still the Doctor running around in his Tardis, time travelling and fighting Daleks. It may not be comics, specifically, but it's still the same idea, is it not? It's longtime properties.

I think JCM's point (and please correct me if I'm wrong) is that the American comic book industry, unlike many of its international contemporaries, is the only one that currently makes a primary industry practice out of milking their IP after the original creators have died/moved on, while comic industries in other countries thrive as much on new IP as on their old ones.

Japan certainly loves their classic anime IP, but even in just the last ten years, there's been so much original anime IP that's reached worldwide attention, like Cowboy Bebop, and Death Note, and Detective Conan, and Samurai Champloo, and Wolf's Rain, and Gankustuo, and FMA, and FMP, and Last Exile, and every new movie released by Miyakazi or Otomo.

Jul 13, 2009#104

Yeah, I'm not denying that in the least. Like I said, it's part of why I'm getting tired of mainstream comics. But that doesn't mean you have to ignore ALL of it. There are some great, memorable runs on characters by creative teams throughout the years and I could probably be here all day listing said great runs throughout the decades.

But it's not to say that the kind of milking of an IP isn't done elsewhere, not just in comics. Companies will milk a character for all their worth unless it's creator owned. If there's money to be made, then there's no end to the character. I love a good story, just not when they hype things like "Nothing will ever be the same!" or "Everything you know is a lie!" It's why I'm getting tired of stories where they "shake things up" just for the media attention. Mind you, Captain America in the last few years has been exactly that, but the execution of it has been so well done that it's hard to complain.

Stories are retold all the time to the point that there's little originality anymore, but that's not a practice done just in comics. Novelists use mytholgy or previous events or things like that as a springboard for their story. Hell, even Shakespeare only had two plays which were entirely original and not based on previous history or works (Tempest and Midsummer Night's Dream), but even then, they were influenced by previoius works. He retold stories that audiences were already familiar with, but they were extremely well written retellings, so does that mean they shouldn't count, too?

More and more movies are either milking franchises (superhero movies) or remaking old 70s movies.

Jul 13, 2009#105

SpecialKO

Oh, execution makes a huge difference.

Shakespeare benefited from taking the stories and ideas behind his plays and making something that was uniquely his in style and expression.

The problem with Marvel and DC from this perspective is that they really don't like to allow their writers to do that because new stories aren't just adaptations of their old IP, they are their old IP and you can only go so far before stepping on editorial toes.

It's notable that some of the best recent examples of the writer-runs on classic IP in American comics is when the writers have had enough clout to really do things that make their runs unique and interesting.

It's unfortunate that when those runs end, the powers-that-be retcon by decree, which is again, one of those things that really seems to piss off JCM. :heythere:

Jul 13, 2009#106

And one of the things that pisses me off, too, believe me. For example, Captain America. I honestly wish they'd just keep Steve Rogers dead for years, but at the same time, I understand that this is a 3 act story that Brubaker has been planning since issue 1. By the end of it, everything will likely go back to status quo, but it's going to be one hell of a ride.

Another good example, which unfortunately is part of what started a lot of the whole mess in the first place, was the death of Superman. The 3 acts for that (Death, Funeral, Reign of the Supermen) is fantastic, if a bit dated now. It was a hell of a ride at the time and still one of my favourite Superman stories within the actual core books.

As I said, though, at this point, there's no changing the actual mythology. Superman will always fight Luthor. Batman will always fight Joker. But sometimes, out of a LOT of the garbage that is told, there's some genuinely great stories that are self contained, can be read by anyone and available in, say, one or two volumes. Again, best example of this is All Star Superman.

But yeah, as great as Planet Hulk was? All that character development and interest premise was shat away to make room for Loeb's horrible run.

Jul 13, 2009#107

@Li3n

Meh, if we're gonna start then:

Superman = Gladiator

Green Lantern (Hal) = Lensman

Alucard = it's just spelled backwards...

Batman = Zorro

meh, everything is "inspired" off something else...

Jul 13, 2009#108

@Li3n said:
Superman = Gladiator

Neat! I hadn't even heard of that before. Excuse me, I got me a book to order. Thanks!
(no sarcasm here at all; I really am thankful!)

Jul 13, 2009#109

SpecialKO

@Li3n said:
Meh, if we're gonna start then:

Superman = Gladiator

Green Lantern (Hal) = Lensman

Alucard = it's just spelled backwards...

Batman = Zorro

meh, everything is \"inspired\" off something else...

I don't think anyone is really going there, as opposed to complaining about Marvel/DC's stripmining of their own concepts to make stories for those same concepts, and then hand-waving those stories away in order to continue the process.

Warren Ellis' willingness to both mock and honor classic superhero tropes with his run on Stormwatch, the Authority, and Planetary is a perfect example of how old ideas and IP can become new again.

Jul 13, 2009#110

Shannow

ThatNickGuy said:
@Li3n said:

Superman = Gladiator

Click to expand...

Neat! I hadn't even heard of that before. Excuse me, I got me a book to order. Thanks!
(no sarcasm here at all; I really am thankful!)

Wow...really? I thought most comic fans knew about that one.

Jul 13, 2009#111

@Li3n

I had to get something on Supes to use to defend Cpt. Marvel... SHAZAM!

Also, Dragon Ball = Journey to the West...

And Gladiator's powers are more or less Herakles...

Jul 13, 2009#112

JCM

ThatNickGuy said:
That's the thing with Superman at this point: changes won't be made, but stories within the mythology can be told that are still good stories.

So you enjoy hearing the same stories over and over.

I´ll agree to disagree.

ThatNickGuy said:
JCM said:

Lets try and imagine something here. Close your eyes, and imagine all that talent working on Wolverine/Batman/etc stories that wont matter when the next writer retcons it.

Now imagine all of them working creating new comics.

Yes, new.

Imagine new stories, characters, worlds. Ones that they, like any other media, end, after telling a good story, then move on to make another good story.

Click to expand...

Oh! You mean like Rucka cutting his teeth in the business with Whiteout (movie coming in September!)? Or his creator owned series, Queen & Country? Or his series of Atticus Kodiak novels? Or Checkmate, which was DC owned, but was pretty much his baby from the start?

Now count the number of those.

And the number of titles with Batman in them. Guess what DC publishes more? :slywink:
As I said, there are a few great new stories being told, but far too few, with very little advertising.

That's thing thing, though, about "whoring these old characters". They make money. They've always made money and always WILL make money. X-Men sells basically on name, alone, thanks to fanboys, but that's no different than Star Wars fanboys wanting to buy hair from George Lucas when he trims his beard.

Exactly.

You are not reading stories because DC wants to continue a plot, or expand a mythos, or to fill a plothole. DC wants money.
Remeber Superboy? He was killed simply because DC lost the right to the "Superboy" name as a comic title, and would have to pay the Siegel state money.

Writers are getting paid money to milk out to fans who dont dare change to newer IP. When sales decline, they´ll retcon everything so that the enxt writer can do what he wants.

The character doesnt matter, the story doesnt matter, just fans buying the same tired shit everymonth so that DC can overcharge for a comic matters.

These writers aren't forced to write the "same old shit". A lot of times, it's the only way to make a living in the business because new properties are so hit and miss that you never know what will sell and what won't.

So they arent forced becaue the market forces them to to survive?

ONLY American comics whore out old characters? What about that Dragonball thing, huh?

It ended, havent you noticed?

Transformers started in Japan and is, in fact, more whored out over there, if that's even possible. Some rare Japanese IP that doesnt end!![/quote]Iditic example.

The top manga are almost always relatively new IP. Transformers? Godzilla? It doesnt sell squat very well.

[quote:3rf70ka9]Doctor Who has been whored out longer than Star Wars or Star Trek and really, it hasn't changed all that much, either.

Yet BBC produces 10X more new properties than they have old properties being done.

Feel free to compare industries where its "Hey, 90% of what is show in a new property" to make your "hey 99% of the comics we put out are old IP" seem better, but mind you, it wont.

Because in the end, you can take all the old IP on tv, movies and manga that are still being done, and the total number wont reach the same number of comics with Spiderman, Wolverine, Batman and Superman in them.

The problem isnt old IP. Its the Excess of it.

I think JCM's point (and please correct me if I'm wrong) is that the American comic book industry, unlike many of its international contemporaries, is the only one that currently makes a primary industry practice out of milking their IP after the original creators have died/moved on, while comic industries in other countries thrive as much on new IP as on their old ones.

[/quote:3rf70ka9]Bingo.

Jul 13, 2009#113

@Li3n

If you're not hearing the same stories over and over either you're not paying attention or you've not read enough...

Jul 13, 2009#114

That's the thing. They're not necissarily the same stories being told over and over. Superman: Birthright, for example, was kind of like Marvel's Ultimate line, where they take the character back to its roots only as if they started today, instead. Yeah, it's kind of cheap (okay, more than kind of), but the execution is done well and it's by one of the biggest Superman fans around (Mark Waid). I will fully admit that MOST of the stuff out there is crap, but sometimes, some good stories come through that tell the stories within the mythology in a different kind of way (again, All Star Superman. Seriously).

But you're right, the writers are kind of forced as a result of the market.

As far as the Rucka stuff, sure, DC sells more of Batman because he's a character that's been around for 70 years, with only a growing fanbase. Whiteout's only existed for about 10 years, ditto for Q&C, but both have won endless awards (Whiteout, I believe, won an Eisner, but don't quote me on that). How many Batbooks have won Eisners?

But Rucka still writes for DC so he can feed his family, but he still does those other independent projects because it's something he loves.

Didn't know that DBZ ended. I stopped watching it after the Freiza stuff (catching it here and there), but I thought it kept going with DB GT or something. Or was that just the anime and the manga was totally creator written?

Jul 13, 2009#115

Shegokigo

The DBZ storyline was continued in GT, yes.

Jul 13, 2009#116

SpecialKO

@Li3n said:
If you're not hearing the same stories over and over either you're not paying attention or you've not read enough...

He's not complaining about new stories, he's complaining about endless iterations of the same Superman/Batman/Spider-Man, etc, story because the powers-that-be refuse to allow anything different from the last 30 years of continuity to last because they're too afraid of losing their dwindling cash cow, and how that attitude has essentially doomed the future of American mainstream comics.

YMMV of course, but JCM's point is about IP, not ideas, fine distinction though it may be.

Jul 13, 2009#117

Shannow

TeKeo said:
@Li3n said:

If you're not hearing the same stories over and over either you're not paying attention or you've not read enough...

Click to expand...

He's not complaining about new stories, he's complaining about endless iterations of the same Superman/Batman/Spider-Man, etc, story because the powers-that-be refuse to allow anything different from the last 30 years of continuity to last because they're too afraid of losing their dwindling cash cow, and how that attitude has essentially doomed the future of American mainstream comics.

YMMV of course, but JCM's point is about IP, not ideas, fine distinction though it may be.

That sums up his argument right there.

Jul 13, 2009#118

Krisken

I'm going to toss this out there and see where it lands. A thought I had was without those "cash cows", a lot of new characters that were developed wouldn't have seen the light of day. I'm not big on comics myself, but is it at least somewhat feasible that those comics, which are sadly tried and true by being rehashed every decade, are sources of income that allow for new projects?

Jul 13, 2009#119

SpecialKO

Krisken said:
I'm going to toss this out there and see where it lands. A thought I had was without those "cash cows", a lot of new characters that were developed wouldn't have seen the light of day. I'm not big on comics myself, but is it at least somewhat feasible that those comics, which are sadly tried and true by being rehashed every decade, are sources of income that allow for new projects?

Absolutely.

The cash cows fund the new business.

The problem is that the American side of the business seems to have devolved into the cash cows trying to shore themselves up, and so there's no new business that could become new cash cows.

Jul 13, 2009#120

CynicismKills

Jul 13, 2009#121

AshburnerX

What is that from, New Mutants?

Jul 13, 2009#122

CynicismKills

AshburnerX said:
What is that from, New Mutants?

I think so. I have to find the whole page scan, it's pretty funny. Wolverine is basically babysitting the mystic-powered mutants. He's chasing someone, says that, then the girl there says "I hate this place."

Jul 13, 2009#123

JCM

The problem is that the American side of the business seems to have devolved into the cash cows trying to shore themselves up, and so there's no new business that could become new cash cows.

Sad but true.

TeKeo said:
@Li3n said:

If you're not hearing the same stories over and over either you're not paying attention or you've not read enough...

Click to expand...

He's not complaining about new stories, he's complaining about endless iterations of the same Superman/Batman/Spider-Man, etc, story because the powers-that-be refuse to allow anything different from the last 30 years of continuity to last because they're too afraid of losing their dwindling cash cow, and how that attitude has essentially doomed the future of American mainstream comics.

YMMV of course, but JCM's point is about IP, not ideas, fine distinction though it may be.

Yep.

Here's a nice comparison-

Top selling Manga of 2008- Mind you, these are the compilations, not the weekly Shounen/Seinen anthologies, 3 franchises that are 10 years old, but all slated to end, the rest is pretty ecclectic.
Action manga for teens like Naruto, Hunter X Hunter, One Piece, a doctor-horror drama D.Gray-man, comedy title Kimi ni Todoke, drama like the awesome Nana and Boys Over Flowers, a story about a musician Nodame Cantabile and sci-fi in Pluto.
1 One Piece #50 Eiichiro Oda 1,678,208 Shueisha Y410
2 One Piece #51 Eiichiro Oda 1,646,978 Shueisha Y420
3 NANA #19 Ai Yazawa 1,645,128 Shueisha Y410
4 One Piece #49 Eiichiro Oda 1,544,000 Shueisha Y410
5 NANA #20 Ai Yazawa 1,431,335 Shueisha Y420
6 Nodame Cantabile #20 Tomoko Ninomiya 1,209,551 Kodansha Y420
7 Nodame Cantabile #21 Tomoko Ninomiya 1,205,037 Kodansha Y420
8 Naruto #43 Masashi Kishimoto 1,188,881 Shueisha Y450
9 Naruto #42 Masashi Kishimoto 1,092,295 Shueisha Y410
10 Fullmetal Alchemist #19 Hiromu Arakawa 1,081,575 Square Enix Y410
11 Fullmetal Alchemist #20 Hiromu Arakawa 1,032,637 Square Enix Y420
12 Bleach #34 Kubotite 874,153 Shueisha Y410
13 Hunter X Hunter #25 Yoshihiro Togashi 863,240 Shueisha Y420
14 Hunter X Hunter #26 Yoshihiro Togashi 837,714 Shueisha Y410
15 Boys Over Flowers (Hana Yori Dango) #37 Yoko Kamio 815,648 Shueisha Y410
16 Naruto #44 Masashi Kishimoto 812,612 Shueisha Y420
17 Bleach #33 Kubotite 802,692 Shueisha Y410
18 Bleach #35 Kubotite 761,802 Shueisha Y410
19 Naruto #41 Masashi Kishimoto 707,447 Shueisha Y410
20 Kimi ni Todoke #7 Karuho Shiina 649,089 Shueisha Y410
21 Kimi ni Todoke #6 Karuho Shiina 636,176 Shueisha Y410
22 D.Gray-man #15 Katsura Hoshino 632,495 Shueisha Y410
23 Pluto #6 Story: Osamu Tezuka 631,968 Shogakukan Y550
24 Vagabond #28 Original Novel: Eiji Yoshikawa
Art: Takehiko Inoue 630,147 Kodansha Y560
25 Detective Conan #61 Gosho Aoyama 626,445 Shogakukan Y410
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/20 ... ng-no.1-25

Top selling movies of 2008- 4 old franchises more than 40 years of age, but some nice new movies.
http://www.imdb.com/Sections/Years/2008/top-grossing
533,316,061 The Dark Knight (2008)
318,298,180 Iron Man (2008)
317,011,114 Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull (2008)
227,946,274 Hancock (2008)
223,808,164 WALL·E (2008)
215,395,021 Kung Fu Panda (2008)
191,465,414 Twilight (2008/I)
179,982,968 Madagascar: Escape 2 Africa (2008)
168,368,427 Quantum of Solace (2008)
154,529,187 Horton Hears a Who! (2008)

Top selling books- Okay, its got Twilight oberload *ugh* Again, Twilight is a new IP, and theres Harry Potter, but thats it.
http://www.usatoday.com/life/books/news ... tles_N.htm
1 Twilight Stephenie Meyer
2 New Moon Stephenie Meyer
3 Breaking Dawn Stephenie Meyer
4 Eclipse Stephenie Meyer
5 A New Earth Eckhart Tolle
6 The Shack William P. Young
7 The Last Lecture Randy Pausch, Jeffrey Zaslow
8 The Tales of Beedle the Bard J.K. Rowling
9 Brisingr Christopher Paolini
10 The Appeal John Grisham
11 Eat, Pray, Love Elizabeth Gilbert
12 Three Cups of Tea Greg Mortenson, David Oliver Relin
13 The Audacity of Hope Barack Obama
14 The Host Stephenie Meyer
15 The Secret Rhonda Byrne
16 Marley & Me John Grogan
17 Diary of a Wimpy Kid: Rodrick Rules Jeff Kinney
18 The Story of Edgar Sawtelle: A Novel David Wroblewski
19 Eat This, Not That! David Zinczenko, Matt Goulding
20 Dreams From My Father Barack Obama

Top selling comics of 2008?
http://occasionalsuperheroine.blogspot. ... -2008.html
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?id=1 ... ge=article
1 Secret Invasion #1 (Marvel)
2 Secret Invasion #2 (Marvel)
3 Secret Invasion #3 (Marvel)
4 Secret Invasion #4 (Marvel)
5 Secret Invasion #5 (Marvel)
6 Secret Invasion #6 (Marvel)
7 Uncanny X-Men #500 (Marvel)
8 Secret Invasion #7 (Marvel)
9 Final Crisis #1 (DC)
10 Secret Invasion #8 (Marvel)
Heck, I can only find a top ten list, but even if I had a top 50 list and it'll show the exact same thing. Here's the total sales superiority-
MARVEL COMICS 45.82%
DC COMICS 31.67%
US comics depend like 80-90% (give-or take a few %) on old fucking IP. Wohoo, your hot writer whored out to make an interesting Wolverine story that the company doesnt give a shit and will let the next hot writer retcon, if thats creativity, than its no wonder american comics are in such a decline.

Jul 13, 2009#124

Green_Lantern

CynicismKills said:
AshburnerX said:

What is that from, New Mutants?

Click to expand...

I think so. I have to find the whole page scan, it's pretty funny. Wolverine is basically babysitting the mystic-powered mutants. He's chasing someone, says that, then the girl there says "I hate this place."

did he killed the unicorns?

Jul 13, 2009#125

JCM

Man, that only reminds me how Fables turned out weak in the end.

Didn't know that DBZ ended. I stopped watching it after the Freiza stuff (catching it here and there), but I thought it kept going with DB GT or something. Or was that just the anime and the manga was totally creator written?

It ended 10 years back.

It had a great wacky manga, shitty anime, and after the Buu arc, it ended. The animation comic still had an extra year of rights, so they did the even more awful DragonballGT, and nothing more was made.

All mangas end. Sometimes they may get a special issue later once a year max, but all stories and regular comics end. As well as book series, tv shows, movie series and Chinese/Korean Manhua and French Bds.

Of course, there are exceptions (James Bond, Doreamon, Dr Who) but its the opposite to US comics where the exception is having a top-10 selling comic end, and the norm is to milk it out and split it into as many monthly titles as possible.

Jul 13, 2009#126

Alucard

Wait Indiana and the smurfing skull came in 3rd in movies 2008? how? :puke:

Jul 13, 2009#127

Because it was awesome? (Yeah, I know, I'm in the minority that felt that way.)

But yeah, honestly, JCM, I would much prefer the manga style of comics, which sounds a bit more like, say, Vertigo. Sadly, it won't happen, so I'll take what great stories I CAN get with the mythologies. Sometimes, they'll have a concrete ending for that particular creative team and you can jump off with a satisfying conclusion. It doesn't happen all the time, but it can happen.

You're right, though. In a perfect world, creator owned properties would have a specific end in mind, no matter how long their run with a character goes. It's why I won't read Fables any longer, because the planned end (which happened in Vol.11, defeating the Adversary, etc) is no longer the end because Willingham decided to just continue on with the series. Fortunately, there are some great self-contained series, most of them published by Vertigo that ending more than satisfyingly finale. Preacher, Y, Sandman, etc.

It's sad about that 2008 list, with nothing but giant events where "Nothing will ever be the same again!" (Yes, it will) and "Everything you know is a lie!" (until the next creative team undoes it)...and X-Men, which is the most muddled, confusing mess in comics, in my opinion.

Jul 13, 2009#128

Shegokigo

I just came in to add

"Fuck JCM and the negative opinion horse he came in on regarding Dragonball/Z/GT anime"

That is all. :smug:

Jul 13, 2009#129

JCM

Okay, fine, so one person liked GT.

Anyway, its not so much as I hate IPs, but I grew up in the 80s (where Marvel,DC were creating properties left and right while Dark Horse and other lables started), and the 90s (where image, valiant and the rest came along, and Vertigo was created).

Now post-2000, its all downhill.

Jul 13, 2009#130

I blame the fact that all they want to do (at least in DC's case) is bring back the Silver Age as much as humanly possible.

And Marvel has their heroes being near villainlike assholes (Tony Stark) or making deals with the devil (Spider-Man).

Jul 13, 2009#131

Shegokigo

JCM said:
Okay, fine, so one person liked GT.

Anyway, its not so much as I hate IPs, but I grew up in the 80s (where Marvel,DC were creating properties left and right while Dark Horse and other lables started), and the 90s (where image, valiant and the rest came along, and Vertigo was created).

Now post-2000, its all downhill.

GT was definitely lower quality than the rest of the series, but it gave me my Dragonball fix for 2 more seasons. Now all that can satiate me is the tidbits of info that are rarely leaked about the Dragonball MMO.

Jul 14, 2009#132

@Li3n

Shannow said:
TeKeo said:

@Li3n said:

If you're not hearing the same stories over and over either you're not paying attention or you've not read enough...

Click to expand...

He's not complaining about new stories, he's complaining about endless iterations of the same Superman/Batman/Spider-Man, etc, story because the powers-that-be refuse to allow anything different from the last 30 years of continuity to last because they're too afraid of losing their dwindling cash cow, and how that attitude has essentially doomed the future of American mainstream comics.

YMMV of course, but JCM's point is about IP, not ideas, fine distinction though it may be.

Click to expand...

That sums up his argument right there.

Yeah, but Ratman, and his sidekick Gopher, the Boy-Rodent might be "original" IP, that doesn't make it actually different, now does it...

TNG said:
They're not necissarily the same stories being told over and over. Superman: Birthright, for example, was kind of like Marvel's Ultimate line, where they take the character back to its roots only as if they started today, instead.

Meh, that's about as new as Zorro in a 1930's urban setting, with murdered parents...

Jul 14, 2009#133

JCM

@Li3n said:
Shannow said:

TeKeo said:

[quote="@Li3n":1yn0k9vm]If you're not hearing the same stories over and over either you're not paying attention or you've not read enough...

Click to expand...

He's not complaining about new stories, he's complaining about endless iterations of the same Superman/Batman/Spider-Man, etc, story because the powers-that-be refuse to allow anything different from the last 30 years of continuity to last because they're too afraid of losing their dwindling cash cow, and how that attitude has essentially doomed the future of American mainstream comics.

YMMV of course, but JCM's point is about IP, not ideas, fine distinction though it may be.

Click to expand...

That sums up his argument right there.

Yeah, but Ratman, and his sidekick Gopher, the Boy-Rodent might be "original" IP, that doesn't make it actually different, now does it... [/quote:1yn0k9vm]Heh, looks like some hardcore Batman fans cant imagine anything but superheroes, guess you'd die in China and Japan, where everything from lawyer drama, horror to sci-fi and historical biographies are sold, and do well. From the number of ideas abeing tossed around in non-marvel/DC books for idiots, it seems that american comics can one day catch up to other media, if the fanboys would just stop taking "whatever hot writer to make the same shit sell by telling it from a different angle" up their arse and started buying something other than the same tired shit.

But then that would require also growing up and trying something new, imagine that, sci-fi, mystery, adventure, thriller, drama, comedy, and *GASP!* no tights. See how the Japanese manga, books and movies top 25 have diverse different titles, and taing any month's top 25 of comics has the same tired "Batman Superman Wolverine for the idiots"

You know, like we sued to in the 90s and 80s, when comics were more than just "Look its Superman and Spiderman over and over again". Even Ratman would be better than having an industry that depended on a bunch of idiots willing to put up with 10 bat books a month, and the joke of seeing them defend such a pathetic excuse for industry.

Thankfully the graphic novel market seems to be the last hope, with Y the Last Man, Watchmen and others normally outselling the usual old IPs.

Jul 14, 2009#134

Silver Jelly

GT doesn't exist, guys! DB is just a manga!

:smug: I'm cool.

Jul 14, 2009#135

@Li3n

Oh sorry JCM, that's all my fault for not saying Binbin and his friend Captain Habbock, being involved in all sorts of adventures....

Or Kandy Kandy being an orphan in victorian times....

But then almost no one would actually have fucking clue what i was talking about.

Not that strawmen aren't fun mind you.

Jul 14, 2009#136

JCM

@Li3n said:
Bla bla still defending 10 fucking batbooks a month blabla..

Arent you supposed to go to the bookstore and get the new "Davinci crisis"?

Its that one where Robert Langdon from Reality-5 has to discover a way to stop Robert Langdon Prime from killing Sherlock Holmes, Passepartout´s clone, and Hercule Poirot, who returned to life after Dark Miss Marple ripped across the dimensional pages of detective reality. (All its effects so intelligently spread accross all "Davinci Crisis tie-ins; Detective League, Mike Hammer, Mike Hammer Corps, Langdon and Jesus girl, Langdon Man of symbols, Sam Spade, P.I. comics, the New Hardy Boys and the Hardy Boys:Classified).

I heard it has 5 variant covers, and if you buy them all and put them upside down side-by-side, it´ll show a mysterious figure in the background who seems to be NancyJr Dakkar, the daughter of Nancy Drew and Captain Nemo, who was killed by Langdon and Gandalf.

Dont forget, its being written by that new hot teen writer Stephenie Meyer, with art by Harry Potter´s own Mary GrandPré, who now have signed on to head the Detective League books and the Dr Jekyll vs Marley special.

Silver Jelly said:
GT doesn't exist, guys! DB is just a manga!

:smug: I'm cool.

Pink is the new yellow.

And sorry Shego, but DBGT was terrible experiment, showing what happens when you try and treat manga properties like american comics and do anime without the creative vision behind the character.

Jul 14, 2009#137

Shegokigo

Again, I repeat, I am aware of it's quality, I was simply happy to get the storyline extended 2 more seasons. Could it have been better? Of course. Would I have preferred it to be better? Of course? Am I glad the new Dragonball MMO is going to forget GT ever existed in canon? Of course. Do I own Season 1 & 2 of GT? You betcha. :Leyla:

Jul 14, 2009#138

wana10

and dragonball kai is what? not whoring out a story that's already been done multiple times before?

Jul 14, 2009#139

JCM

wana10 said:
and dragonball kai is what? not whoring out a story that's already been done multiple times before?

Actually, its the SAME cartoon, just in HD and with no filler episodes. ever heard the concept of reruns? Its like that, but at least with the decency to make it look good for HD-tv, instead of remaking yet another Dragonball cartoon, its as much milking as Blu-ray editions of movies and director cuts.

Now, if they made a new Dagonball over and over, every time changing the story lightly and the art direction, ala Spiderman, Batman or Xmen (hey, now theyre teenagers! Hey, now Wolverine is their leader!), then I´d call it milking, but its funny to see the desperation of the comic crowd defending overmilking by trying a cartoon and manga thats been over for a decade.

Jul 14, 2009#140

kaykordeath

Is it really "milking" if people continue to enjoy it?

Or if it brings in new readers?

Should American Comic publishers cater to A) their long time readers, older fan base, who may not devote as much time to the hobby as they did in their teens B) new readers who may not care about and/or know the history/continuity or C) as many damn people as they can get books to because they're businesses trying to maximize their exposure?

Just because there are more and more titles out there, doesn't mean every last thing is for every last person.

I'd blame the mindset of the "completionist" collector than the publisher.

Jul 14, 2009#141

JCM

kaykordeath said:
Is it really "milking" if people continue to enjoy it?

No I didnt read the thread.

Are you dumb?

You had an industry wth millions in sales reduced to a few hundred thousand. Agressive marketing by the Big Two basically makes being an indepedent comic publisher very unprofitable, and not long-lasting.

Your industry´s only big sales come from old IP, which means new characters and IP will be hard to come by and be succesfull, and you sad nerds will still be stuck with Superman in your 50s, while book, manga, film and tv fans will have moved on to newer and better stuff every other year.

Jul 14, 2009#142

kaykordeath

See, but that's the thing...

I agree 110% that the industry is in the crapper.

What you're missing is that comic book readers don't move to magna because it's a different style/story and one I have zero interest in. Why would I want the comic book industry to be more like something ELSE.

The problem isn't in becoming more like something ELSE successful, but how to make it stronger on its own merits.

I'll freely admit, it may just a be a genrational thing. Comic books have had their time. The radio-as-entertainment industry had their shining moment, but no longer draws the millions they once did....comics probably never will again. It doesn't mean the quality of what is being put out now is that much worse than it used to be..simply the appeal of the quality.

The whole my "picture book with words" style" is better than yours is mind boggling to me.

Jul 14, 2009#143

wana10

a) the japanese comic structure lends itself to new stories
b) they still fall into some of the same problems of repetition that american comics do. (shonen hero has to learn new technique/unlock hidden power to defeat latest enemy, rinse, repeat. hell, last shonen manga i liked that had the hero use his WIS score rather than his STR score got canceled because of lack of readers. /me wants a better end to MX0 :tear: )
c) the strength of the american model lends itself to small contained stories without needing to set up new characters/worlds every time. one of my favourite comic stories ever is an 8 page two-face story that only worked because i already knew the two-face character.
d) japan has its institutions as well. detective conan, lupin III, fist of the north star, mazinger z, leiji matsumoto, etc etc etc

this comes from a fan of japanese comics and american comics(the smaller stories at least, i've never been much for the larger drawn out huge crossover things)

Jul 14, 2009#144

SpecialKO

kaykordeath said:
Is it really "milking" if people continue to enjoy it?

Or if it brings in new readers?

I'd say "no", if it brings in new readers, which it doesn't seem to be.

I'm not sure why so many folks are having problems parsing JCM's stance here.

I'm can't believe I'm actually defending him. :eek:

It's not his issue that Superman is based on Gladiator. It's that every couple of years, supes has issues with his powers, lois lane can't decide if she loves the "super" or the "man", some Big Bad named coincidentally-named "Zod" shows up with the same powerset, Luthor does something evil with a giant machine, DC advertises it as the greatest superman story ever with lasting, palpable changes that the Man of Steel will have to contend with, and then there's a crisis to retcon any lingering effects which could have lasting impact, and then they do it again in a couple years with a new author.

And then DC does nothing else beyond an occasional unadvertised Vertigo imprint.

That last part is important.

Yeah, DB is a big media property, but it ended, and Goku went from a idiot kid to a grandfather throughout the course of the series, and do we really want to get into how many comics Jump Magazine was able to fund due to DB sales (please don't, JCM) that themselves turned into blockbusters?

Jul 14, 2009#145

kaykordeath

TeKeo said:
And then DC does nothing else beyond an occasional unadvertised Vertigo imprint.

That last part is important.

It IS important, but I don't think it's THE key.

Because a 75 year old property still needs to be able to attract 12 year olds who have no idea who or what a "Zod" is. Or at least DC is scared to alienate these kids..which I agree IS a mistake.

I think it's why I enjoyed Final Crisis...it forced me to hit the web/Wiki to figure out who's who and what's what. But that is a risky business move.

I think JCM is making the right conclusion to the wrong argument. Yes, one industry is thriving while another is sputtering out...but I don't think it's the choice of IPs that has anything to do with it, nor the stories being told...I think it's a marketing/visibility/accessibility issue...but I'd wager that's a whole nother argument/thread...

Jul 14, 2009#146

JCM

But thats the main issue. Marvel and DC almost but all withdrew from the newspaper stands, which reduced orders and killed most smaller publishers that depended on that. Then Marvel and DC sided with diamond, which basically almost but all killed off anyone distributing elsewhere.

Theyve monopolised advertising, fandom mags, with many stores even selling just the big two´s comics, and distribution under Diamond favouring the two, I dont see it changing.
http://www.southparkbooks.com/ComicDistrib.html
Thank god for the graphic novel market and bookstores, and read below.

kaykordeath said:
See, but that's the thing...

I agree 110% that the industry is in the crapper..

This is my point.

Yes, I know some people prefer things the same way. We´re a culture that buys Halo Wars, play the 500th Mario game and still go and see the latest James Bond movie.

But American comics (the monthly direct market) is going down, and losing steam fast, and its gonna just continue being a small subculture for people who want to read the latest Spiderman.

There is hope though, the graphic novels market. Take a look at last year´s graphic novel´s top ten-

2008 TOP 10 GRAPHIC NOVELS & TRADE PAPERBACKS
Quantity
Rank Description Price Publisher
1 WATCHMEN TP $19.99 DC Comics
2 BATMAN THE KILLING JOKE SPECIAL ED HC $17.99 DC Comics
3 JOKER HC $19.99 DC Comics
4 Y THE LAST MAN TP VOL 10 WHYS AND WHEREFORES $14.99 DC Comics
5 WALKING DEAD TP VOL 08 MADE TO SUFFER $14.99 Image Comics
6 BATMAN DARK KNIGHT RETURNS TP $14.99 DC Comics
7 FABLES TP VOL 10: THE GOOD PRINCE $17.99 DC Comics
8 WANTED GN $19.99 Image Comics
9 BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER SEASON 8 TP
VOL 02: NO FUTURE FOR YOU $15.95 Dark Horse Comics
10 Y THE LAST MAN TP VOL 01 UNMANNED $12.99 DC Comics

Aside From two great 80´s Batman stories (which were told without needing another monthly title, just a few issues), its pretty much a good reading list and a good show on american comics creativity.

Thats where the industry will shift, and where creativity will abound, and maybe US comics will be like the French BD, considered equals to books, qith rights to the same awards, sales and respect.

The newspaper stand comic is nearly dead, the direct market dying because of the Big Two´s overload, and graphic novels are the future.

Jul 14, 2009#147

Frankie Williamson

No one I know buys single issue comics anymore. It could be because we are all older and don't have time to hit the comic stores every week to get our fill but I for one just normally order trades of things I'm interested in from Amazon. Be it Thunderbolts, Y, Invincible, Wolf-Man, Walking Dead, Fables (well I haven't read Fables in a while, seemed to lose interest after the whole adversary thing was dealt with) etc.

Jul 14, 2009#148

SpecialKO

kaykordeath said:
TeKeo said:

And then DC does nothing else beyond an occasional unadvertised Vertigo imprint.

That last part is important.

Click to expand...

It IS important, but I don't think it's THE key.

Because a 75 year old property still needs to be able to attract 12 year olds who have no idea who or what a "Zod" is. Or at least DC is scared to alienate these kids..which I agree IS a mistake.

Of course, but when your solution to the continuity problem is to tell the same story over and over again while your sales plummet, you badly need a new solution.

One solution is to start writing new IP/stories which don't require 75 years of continuity to understand.

I think it's why I enjoyed Final Crisis...it forced me to hit the web/Wiki to figure out who's who and what's what. But that is a risky business move.

You're the first person I met who liked that aspect of FC. :tongue:

I think JCM is making the right conclusion to the wrong argument. Yes, one industry is thriving while another is sputtering out...but I don't think it's the choice of IPs that has anything to do with it, nor the stories being told...I think it's a marketing/visibility/accessibility issue...but I'd wager that's a whole nother argument/thread...

It's really both. Marvel and DC advertise their mainstream stories as much as they can, but sales suffer. The market is definitely out there, so the obvious conclusion is that they are failing to present their value proposition.

Part of that is getting the crap kicked out of them on volume; why spend $4 on a 32-page comic book issue with only 20 pages of actual story, 8 pages of ads, and 4 pages of sketch art, when you can spend $8 on a 200-page digest-comic with the same number of ads and sketch art that only require familiarity with a relative handful of similar volumes instead of 70 years of stuff.

It's not the "choice" of IPs that makes success or failure, it's a willingness to test new products. Invariably, the company that is able to test several products to keep finding new successes to exploit will last longer than the company that is either not able to or unwilling to. The product doesn't have to be a brand new concept; it can be the same concept, but with a notably different twist or feature that adds value; how much value is there in the same feature being touted as new and fresh every couple of years.

Jul 14, 2009#149

JCM

Nevermind, Marvel and DC arent dominating the graphic novel market, which is increasing more and more every year.
And thankfully, that market they cant monopolize with exclusive distribution and adverstising, because to a bookstore, Marvel and DC is just another publisher.

So it´ll have to evolve and try new IPs and genres like it did in the 70´s, or become as irrelevant as a rpg book publisher, with other media (books, tv and movies) and other comic industries (manga, manha, BDs, gibis) continuing to run laps around old mainstream superhero IPs.

Jul 14, 2009#150

kaykordeath

See, now that I can agree on...as well as your most recent post in the other thread. I've always been of the mindset that the wider the variety, the better...give ALL of the people what they want but don't try to cram everything that you HAVE down all the people...

But it begs the question to lob back at you:

Have you seen DC's Wednesday Comics?

To me, it seems like DC is at least becoming aware of their distribution fuck-ups and WISHING they could get back on the news-stands...

Jul 14, 2009#151

sixpackshaker

As a recovering comic collector I hate to say this.

Comics are for kids.

There, I said it.

It holds especially true for the big name titles. They need the retreads every decade or so, so the young readers will know the background of their favorite heroes. Before the Superman reboot of 1986, Superman was tied to every story told about him for 50 years. It is kind of hard to hold true to all that canon. It was also hard to read. I think it would be better to flip the big titles more often. Keep them fresh and put minor spins on the great stories.

I bought Oliver Queen/Green Arrow "Quiver" story arch the other day. It told the story of how he came back to life, 10 years after his death. Which happened in the '90's then they all reminisced about Oliver and Hal Jordan palled around together a few years before... 20 years before, but treated all their hippy hugging into the late 80's or early 90's.

That would make all these 30 something heroes closer to 50 or 60.

Or the Bat-Cave with the 1940's giant penny and T-rex props...

Is Captain America still a WWII super hero that was dug up during the early 70's? and that his 80 year old teen side kick, that is filling in for him is some how in his 30's still.

It is good to clear out the canon more often than they do.

At least the Iron Man movie changed his background from a casualty of the Vietnam War to some nebulous action in the Middle East.

Jul 14, 2009#152

Frankie Williamson

sixpackshaker said:
As a recovering comic collector I hate to say this.

Comics are for kids.

There, I said it.

If you have kids, please buy them copies of Alan Moore's Lost Girls.

Just saying.

Jul 14, 2009#153

sixpackshaker

Alan Moore is running a monthly comic book? I thought he mostly did one-shots and prestige issues.

Jul 14, 2009#154

Frankie Williamson

I was being a facetious ass. It's a book Moore did a few years ago about the sexual adventures of classic literary characters. Wendy from Peter Pan, Alice from Wonderland and Dorothy from Wizard of Oz to be more specific. I haven't read them myself (as as I understand, they are exceedingly rare) but there is some controversial material in them involving depictions of underage sex.

Jul 14, 2009#155

Bowielee

I understand the arguments being made about properties being stale, but on the other hand, just because a story is a rehash of something that's already been done doesn't mean it can't be good.

Jul 14, 2009#156

JCM

But when its 90% what the two biggest publishers who have over 90% of the market publish, it shows just how small and irrelevant the industry has become.

On Wednesday comics, that will give some newstand sales, the only place where they can expand back to. And hopefully it´ll be the the next "Dark Horse presents", which launched most successful DH franchises and gave much money and even movie studio attention to DH.

The direct market, created by the investor craze, is ever diminishing. The number of people buying monthly Batman/Superman is ever decreasing.

The graphic novel market? A movie might drive sales, but there theyre competing with countless others genres, as well as millions of books.

As a recovering comic collector I hate to say this.

Too many old superhero comic are for kids.

Corrected that for you.

Jul 14, 2009#157

sixpackshaker

The emphasis on adult themed limited stories seemed to help kill the comics industry. DC and Marvel were doing fine before the bubble started. The prestige format like The Dark Knight Returns and Watchmen drove a short period of less than a decade of booming sales. Comic titles never learned to find its way in the glut of entertainment aimed at children.

The bread and butter needs to be recurring sales, to kids. It should be the bigger market, because there is no stigma related to kids reading comics. Tell adventurous stories of good and evil, and kids will read. Don't dumb it down for kids, children know when that is happening.

In normal fiction JK Rowling found a great formula, start with books easy enough for kids to get into and with enough depth that it will hold the adult audience, and then age the character and have the title grow in subject matter over the years. Then end it.

That is what Batman, Superman and X-men should be doing. Start over, go simple and elegant, then age the comic with your target audience, when they start to falter, start over.

Adult comic readers are a rare and fading breed. We were never enough to keep the industry afloat, and many have left do to other priorities.

A comic title (recurring titles) should not be trying to please a 25 to 45 year old man. The target audience should start at 10 to 15 and then grow for ten years.

Jul 14, 2009#158

Frankie Williamson

It's kind of funny how that's pretty much antithetic to how the rest of the world views comics.

Jul 14, 2009#159

Bowielee

Frankie said:
It's kind of funny how that's pretty much antithetic to how the rest of the world views comics.

Different cultures view things in different ways?

The HELL you say.

Comics isn't the only industry where the same things are being drug out time and again. The same thing happens with TV shows, movies, etc...

I think it's part of the american culture in general.

Jul 14, 2009#160

JCM

sixpackshaker said:
Adult comic readers are a rare and fading breed. We were never enough to keep the industry afloat, and many have left do to other priorities.

Bullshit, havent you been reading? Read the sales.

Graphic novel sales are increasing. Adult readers, not the sad pathetic blob going to a "comic" store, but the man who goes to a bookstore and gets a graphic novel along with other books, has been rising, from non-existence in the 90s to nearly 50% of total sales, with non-superhero getting more slots in the top ten. Kiddie/fanboys who buy 10 shitty wolverine titles are decreasing.

The emphasis on adult themed limited stories seemed to help kill the comics industry.

Again BS.

Remeber Xmen, the one with the tin foil cover? Thatw as basically the harbinger of image, variant covers, 5-6 books of the same team/character (whereas before they got by with 2 max). Then when the investor market failed, Marvel and dc, instead of going back to the 80s mix of new and old IP and newstand sales, killed off the competition by distributing ONLY with Diamond, thus killing off competition, and monopolizing the direct sale (aka the idiotic comic stores for nerds that didnt exist before).

What US comics need is to kill the direct market, put kiddie/Superhero comics all back to the newstands where kids buy them. And make more adult comics for the bookstores, because thats where US comics are shining, and will shine.

Jul 14, 2009#161

Shegokigo

I don't think sixpack is in touch with the current market of comics vs graphic novels. His point of view seems very early/mid nineties.

Jul 15, 2009#162

I'm fully in support of a growing graphic novel/trade paperback market. I made a complaint to DC that the original set up for the Final Crisis collection would make no sense (or, you know, LESS sense) to the average buyer because if you go by just the main #1-7 series, there's a villain that shows up out of nowhere in the last issue. To know who he is, you'd have to have read Superman Beyond #1-2, which was then changed to be included in the collection.

That said, you can't blame the Big 2's business practices entirely on their dwindling numbers. It certainly plays a role, but less and less kids even care about reading when they can watch movies or play video games. Why read an adventure about Spider-Man when you can play AS Spider-Man?

Jul 15, 2009#163

Shegokigo

ThatNickGuy said:
That said, you can't blame the Big 2's business practices entirely on their dwindling numbers. It certainly plays a role, but less and less kids even care about reading when they can watch movies or play video games. Why read an adventure about Spider-Man when you can play AS Spider-Man?

Video games killed the comic book star....

Jul 15, 2009#164

Silver Jelly

Shegokigo said:
ThatNickGuy said:

That said, you can't blame the Big 2's business practices entirely on their dwindling numbers. It certainly plays a role, but less and less kids even care about reading when they can watch movies or play video games. Why read an adventure about Spider-Man when you can play AS Spider-Man?

Click to expand...

Video games kill the comic book star....

Don't worry. They'll get better.

Jul 15, 2009#165

@Li3n

JCM said:
@Li3n said:

Bla bla still defending 10 fucking batbooks a month blabla..

Click to expand...

Arent you supposed to go to the bookstore and get the new "Davinci crisis"?

Its that one where Robert Langdon from Reality-5 has to discover a way to stop Robert Langdon Prime from killing Sherlock Holmes, Passepartout´s clone, and Hercule Poirot, who returned to life after Dark Miss Marple ripped across the dimensional pages of detective reality. (All its effects so intelligently spread accross all "Davinci Crisis tie-ins; Detective League, Mike Hammer, Mike Hammer Corps, Langdon and Jesus girl, Langdon Man of symbols, Sam Spade, P.I. comics, the New Hardy Boys and the Hardy Boys:Classified).

I heard it has 5 variant covers, and if you buy them all and put them upside down side-by-side, it´ll show a mysterious figure in the background who seems to be NancyJr Dakkar, the daughter of Nancy Drew and Captain Nemo, who was killed by Langdon and Gandalf.

Dont forget, its being written by that new hot teen writer Stephenie Meyer, with art by Harry Potter´s own Mary GrandPré, who now have signed on to head the Detective League books and the Dr Jekyll vs Marley special.

Man, you're so right, that story would be so much better if only they just used other, unrelated to previous characters, names in it...

Kinda like taking the Monkey King from Journey to the West, giving him Superman's origin, but with a "evil race" twist, and then after the King Picollo saga just repeating the same pattern in the story over and over.... Frieza was at least justified by the filling in of the backstory... even as a kid i thought that everything that came after was unnecessary.

Or giving Huckleberry Finn stretching powers and putting him in a pirate world [ i admit, my Lore (pirate literature) skill isn't very high ].

The problem with american comics are plenty, old IP whoring being more of a symptom then a cause...

Graphic novel sales are increasing.

Alan Moore is a cranky ol' nutso, but i have to agree with him that calling them graphic novels is wankery designed to make people feel better that they're buying comics... which shouldn't be needed if they stood on their own in your mind...

Jul 15, 2009#166

Green_Lantern

That is some sick fetish comic. :tumbleweed:

Jul 15, 2009#167

Shegokigo

I actually hear that Mouse Guard is well written and has amazing art.

Jul 15, 2009#168

@Li3n

Why would that guarantee it's not a sick fetish comic?!

Jul 15, 2009#169

Green_Lantern

@Li3n said:
Why would that guarantee it's not a sick fetish comic?!

She never said it wasn't

Jul 15, 2009#170

@Li3n

She used "actually"....

Jul 15, 2009#171

Green_Lantern

JCM said:
Arent you supposed to go to the bookstore and get the new "Davinci crisis"?

Its that one where Robert Langdon from Reality-5 has to discover a way to stop Robert Langdon Prime from killing Sherlock Holmes, Passepartout´s clone, and Hercule Poirot, who returned to life after Dark Miss Marple ripped across the dimensional pages of detective reality. (All its effects so intelligently spread accross all "Davinci Crisis tie-ins; Detective League, Mike Hammer, Mike Hammer Corps, Langdon and Jesus girl, Langdon Man of symbols, Sam Spade, P.I. comics, the New Hardy Boys and the Hardy Boys:Classified).

I heard it has 5 variant covers, and if you buy them all and put them upside down side-by-side, it´ll show a mysterious figure in the background who seems to be NancyJr Dakkar, the daughter of Nancy Drew and Captain Nemo, who was killed by Langdon and Gandalf.

Dont forget, its being written by that new hot teen writer Stephenie Meyer, with art by Harry Potter´s own Mary GrandPré, who now have signed on to head the Detective League books and the Dr Jekyll vs Marley special.

damn, now I want to know the Mike Hammer Corps oath.

Jul 15, 2009#172

Shegokigo

@Li3n said:
She used "actually"....

Due to most sick fetish comics not having good art/story. :slywink:

Jul 15, 2009#173

@Li3n

as i was explaining to GL...

Jul 15, 2009#174

AshburnerX

Shegokigo said:
I actually hear that Mouse Guard is well written and has amazing art.

It is indeed. I have the Mouse Guard: Fall 1152 hardback (which is where that scene takes place) and it's easily one of my favorite new IPs and one of the most well drawn comics I've seen in a long time. It's basically Redwall, set in the Dark Ages, with characters that don't fuck around. I'm going to be getting the Mouse Guard: Winter 1152 hardback as soon as it comes out.

Jul 15, 2009#175

JCM

Man, I need to read the mouse guard.

Green_Lantern said:
JCM said:

Arent you supposed to go to the bookstore and get the new "Davinci crisis"?

Its that one where Robert Langdon from Reality-5 has to discover a way to stop Robert Langdon Prime from killing Sherlock Holmes, Passepartout´s clone, and Hercule Poirot, who returned to life after Dark Miss Marple ripped across the dimensional pages of detective reality. (All its effects so intelligently spread accross all "Davinci Crisis tie-ins; Detective League, Mike Hammer, Mike Hammer Corps, Langdon and Jesus girl, Langdon Man of symbols, Sam Spade, P.I. comics, the New Hardy Boys and the Hardy Boys:Classified).

I heard it has 5 variant covers, and if you buy them all and put them upside down side-by-side, it´ll show a mysterious figure in the background who seems to be NancyJr Dakkar, the daughter of Nancy Drew and Captain Nemo, who was killed by Langdon and Gandalf.

Dont forget, its being written by that new hot teen writer Stephenie Meyer, with art by Harry Potter´s own Mary GrandPré, who now have signed on to head the Detective League books and the Dr Jekyll vs Marley special.

Click to expand...

damn, now I want to know the Mike Hammer Corps oath.

Laugh all you want, but it seems I cant even remember the GL oath. :tear:

Jul 17, 2009#176

Green_Lantern

JCM said:
Man, I need to read the mouse guard.

Green_Lantern said:

JCM said:

Arent you supposed to go to the bookstore and get the new "Davinci crisis"?

Its that one where Robert Langdon from Reality-5 has to discover a way to stop Robert Langdon Prime from killing Sherlock Holmes, Passepartout´s clone, and Hercule Poirot, who returned to life after Dark Miss Marple ripped across the dimensional pages of detective reality. (All its effects so intelligently spread accross all "Davinci Crisis tie-ins; Detective League, Mike Hammer, Mike Hammer Corps, Langdon and Jesus girl, Langdon Man of symbols, Sam Spade, P.I. comics, the New Hardy Boys and the Hardy Boys:Classified).

I heard it has 5 variant covers, and if you buy them all and put them upside down side-by-side, it´ll show a mysterious figure in the background who seems to be NancyJr Dakkar, the daughter of Nancy Drew and Captain Nemo, who was killed by Langdon and Gandalf.

Dont forget, its being written by that new hot teen writer Stephenie Meyer, with art by Harry Potter´s own Mary GrandPré, who now have signed on to head the Detective League books and the Dr Jekyll vs Marley special.

Click to expand...

damn, now I want to know the Mike Hammer Corps oath.

Click to expand...

Laugh all you want, but it seems I cant even remember the GL oath. :tear:

HERESY!

Jul 17, 2009#177

SpecialKO

Shouldn't you change your ring to a black ring if you're going to start necroing threads?

Jul 17, 2009#178

Green_Lantern

TeKeo said:
Shouldn't you change your ring to a black ring if you're going to start necroing threads?

I haven't find out that is animated =|

edit: I mean't : I haven't find one picture out that is animated =|

Jul 19, 2009#179

@Li3n

JCM said:
Laugh all you want, but it seems I cant even remember the GL oath. :tear:

It's:

In blackest day or brightest night
Watermelon, cantaloupe, yadda yadda
Erm... superstitious and cowardly lot
With liberty and justice for all!

Jul 19, 2009#180

Frankie Williamson

TeKeo said:
Shouldn't you change your ring to a black ring if you're going to start necroing threads?

2 day old threads can't be necro'd.

Jul 19, 2009#181

JCM

Jul 20, 2009#182

Enresshou

JCM said:
Man, I need to read the mouse guard.

Green_Lantern said:

JCM said:

Arent you supposed to go to the bookstore and get the new "Davinci crisis"?

Its that one where Robert Langdon from Reality-5 has to discover a way to stop Robert Langdon Prime from killing Sherlock Holmes, Passepartout´s clone, and Hercule Poirot, who returned to life after Dark Miss Marple ripped across the dimensional pages of detective reality. (All its effects so intelligently spread accross all "Davinci Crisis tie-ins; Detective League, Mike Hammer, Mike Hammer Corps, Langdon and Jesus girl, Langdon Man of symbols, Sam Spade, P.I. comics, the New Hardy Boys and the Hardy Boys:Classified).

I heard it has 5 variant covers, and if you buy them all and put them upside down side-by-side, it´ll show a mysterious figure in the background who seems to be NancyJr Dakkar, the daughter of Nancy Drew and Captain Nemo, who was killed by Langdon and Gandalf.

Dont forget, its being written by that new hot teen writer Stephenie Meyer, with art by Harry Potter´s own Mary GrandPré, who now have signed on to head the Detective League books and the Dr Jekyll vs Marley special.

Click to expand...

damn, now I want to know the Mike Hammer Corps oath.

Click to expand...

Laugh all you want, but it seems I cant even remember the GL oath. :tear:

[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8ovv-W5pcI:1a33fy8x][/youtube:1a33fy8x]

Jul 27, 2009#183

Green_Lantern

explanations?

Enresshou said:
[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8ovv-W5pcI:qwvie7g6][/youtube:qwvie7g6]

Cool!

Also:

X-men relatioship chart Thread of Halforum. RISE!

Jul 28, 2009#184

@Li3n

The pic won't load for me at all...

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