Is anyone surprised? It's a really obvious solution.
I have to pay taxes now; you're fired!
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GasBandit
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I can't believe there are still people out there whose plan for the future never rose above "support my family by working (not managing) at wendy's", and furthermore, I can't believe there are people out there being surprised that leftist policy hurts most those it purports to help.
Not only that, but it forces higher employment. Each employee gets less, but as a result of this law more people will be counted as "employed" and more people will have to work two jobs to make ends meet, and even better, employers will pay higher employment taxes due to the higher number of employees.
It is terrible for workers at the ground level, and for employers, but it hits all the high notes for the democrats. "employment is up, tax revenue is up" will be the claim, but the truth is much worse.
It is terrible for workers at the ground level, and for employers, but it hits all the high notes for the democrats. "employment is up, tax revenue is up" will be the claim, but the truth is much worse.
GasBandit
Staff member
We said over and over - Obamacare to address the problems with the health care system was like trying to solve world hunger by making it illegal to not buy food. It just doesn't work that way, and yes, it would have been better to do nothing than shit the bed about a dubious number of people "without health care."
It's nice how the health care legislation is called Obamacare when it was first thought up by republicans. I agree it's a horrible plan, but it was put out because it was the only one that would pass, which is sad. Don't put this all on the Democrats. It's a pile of shit built by both sides.
GasBandit
Staff member
Look. Democrats used what can at most kindly be called "exotic parliamentary methods" to pass Obamacare in the dead of night under cover of darkness. Republicans unanimously opposed its passage in both chambers and have voted to repeal it over 30 times. I think it's clear where the ownership of this boondoggle is. That one would even consider trying to spread the blame across the aisle speaks volumes about how horrible an idea it was.
They only opposed it because anything coming from Obama was supposed to be DOA. It was a Republican plan Obama put out in hopes to pass something to help people. If they were more willing to work with him, we might have gotten something better than this. It speaks volumes that the Republicans opposed this plan they supported simply because of who was president.
GasBandit
Staff member
Nnnno, I'm pretty sure the great majority of them were doctrinally opposed to the largest expansion of government into the private sector since Roosevelt. They didn't call it Obamacare because they they opposed it due to where it came from, they called it Obamacare because they knew it was bad and wanted to tie it around his neck. To call it their creation because they used it as a stick to try to blunt Hillarycare in the 90s is intellectually dishonest. Republicans do a lot of dumb things for a lot of dumb reasons, but lockstep opposition to Obamacare was and is not one of those things.
Right, cause they didn't continue that doctrine of oppose everything Obama until they got nailed in the last election.
Obamacare would have been government run healthcare and you know it. To blame it on one person or party is just plane stupid. You're smarter than that, at least I hope so.
Obamacare would have been government run healthcare and you know it. To blame it on one person or party is just plane stupid. You're smarter than that, at least I hope so.
GasBandit
Staff member
Oh, no, you're correct in that it isn't just Obama all by his lonesome, but ObamaPelosiRangelCare doesn't have the same ring to it. But trying to make it look like it's just as much the republicans' baby as the democrats' is silly.
I have a problem with leaving arguments unfinished (if he had posted after a month i would have replied), and didn't have the time for long post in December (ppl get way too stressed with closing the year at work).Now that's one way to get the last word in an argument
So people that work in retail and fast-food are low life scum that never aspired to be anything in their lives, and therefore don't deserve a living wage and access to healthcare?
I noticed you work as a radio DJ. Really? You're knocking people for working at Wendy's? Please, Mr. Big Shot, don't shadow all of us at once with your awesome celebrity.
You've got it backwards. You're saying that people who work there must be terrible. He's only talking specifically about people who decide to work there as a career, not as a way to become a manager, and have no interest in better jobs.
Choosing to stay there and make that one's career is a poor choice. Others may be stuck there with no way out, but gas bandit is specifically annoyed by those who could do better, but choose not to, and then complain when the govt changes things in a way that hurts them. They could change and do better, but they choose not to.
Again, he's not saying everyone who works a fast food joint is this way, but the article specifically quoted a person who believed this was a good career, and had no intention of improving their situation.
It's not a good career.
Choosing to stay there and make that one's career is a poor choice. Others may be stuck there with no way out, but gas bandit is specifically annoyed by those who could do better, but choose not to, and then complain when the govt changes things in a way that hurts them. They could change and do better, but they choose not to.
Again, he's not saying everyone who works a fast food joint is this way, but the article specifically quoted a person who believed this was a good career, and had no intention of improving their situation.
It's not a good career.
I have to believe there are people who would much rather rise to plateau as the owner/manager of a fast food establishment rather than enter an executive lifestyle and try/fail/try/fail endlessly skinning their knees trying to climb that corporate ladder. The responsibilities are smaller, etc. Some people may be quite content living in a 1500sq ft house on $50k/yr, and just not feel the need to prove themselves beyond that. What price, happiness, indeed?
--Patrick
Sure, just as there are those happy to hunt, farm, and trade with no income.
Those that want to rise to manager are aspiring to a position that will support them and possibly a family.
Those who only ever want to raise and lower the fry basket, and seek nothing more are going to have a hard time supporting themselves.
Those that want to rise to manager are aspiring to a position that will support them and possibly a family.
Those who only ever want to raise and lower the fry basket, and seek nothing more are going to have a hard time supporting themselves.
GasBandit
Staff member
What they said. I don't knock people who get a job, even if it's fast food, so long as that isn't the pinnacle of their aspirations. Actually, I still don't knock them TOO hard even if it is, and they're only supporting themselves. It's the dumbasses who rail about not being able to support a spouse and 2 kids working a griddle. I mean, what, do you expect to be paid $100k/year to flip burgers? Your misery is entirely your own manufacture. This is America, you had education, opportunities... the only thing holding you back is the decisions you made, metaphorical you.
Also, I am not a DJ. Being a DJ pays 7.50 an hour. My title is IT/Production Director. I was also on the air for a year or two at first at the same time, mostly just for fun, and so that I could say I did. I prerecorded my shift, took about 20 mins to do a 4 hour shift.
If everybody had the ambition you're talking about it wouldn't all of a sudden make more better positions available or reduce the need to burger flippers to zero...
So you know, people with no ambition etc. are actually making the world fairer...
that seems to be my dads line about how someone has to shovel your shit, it doesn't mean they don't deserve x. Now to be fair, I worked 30 hours a week through college and have just obtained a degree in environmental science and hydro-geology, so I am totally aspiring to keep working hard so I can make enough money that I don't have to worry about finances as much.
Can you expand upon what you're talking about here? I'm having trouble processing it. Also an expanded explanation for "making the world fairer" also seems justified. I'm not meaning to troll you, I really do wonder about what you mean, as there's a few explanations, a few of them contradictory (at least it seems so).
Wait, do you want me to explain everything or just the fairer thing?
Oh well, same thing really. It's something like this:
Lets say there are 3 management positions and 20 qualified people for it... clearly only 3 people can get that job... once more then 3 people really want it one more wanting it won't all of a sudden make more available management positions.
As for the fair thing, well it ties into what GB said: "Your misery is entirely your own manufacture."... aka they deserve to flip burgers... unlike when they tried but someone was slightly better, or maybe even just got lucky and overtook them by very little etc. aka they might have deserved the position (they're better then just flipping burgers) but someone deserved it more...
I think his idea is more that burger flipping is a temporary "summer job" for kids, which has (and should have according to his logic) high turnover rates. Unfortunately, this logic is severely flawed in an economy where 50% of college graduates can't find a job. I find it funny that a lot of conservatives always pine for this 1950's golden age, where a man could work a simple factory job on a high school education and provide a house, car, food, etc for his family, but they abhor the possibility of people working menial jobs in modern era where they get decent benefits.
Why isn't Gasbandit knocking on the hardworking WWII generation factory workers for not aspiring greater things? Shouldn't they have also tried harder to get management positions and own the factories they worked in? Do you honestly believe a society can survive if no one works the shit jobs? Reality check - sometimes flipping burgers is all a person can or wants to do. Who the hell are you to judge?
It's GasBandit. That's all he does. He has no intention of doing anything truly constructive to fix anything, and makes damn sure you know that.
I honestly think that what Gas is trying to say is that if you live within your means, then great. More power to you, happiness is what you make it, etc. But if you outgrow your income (or your health insurance, or whatever), then instead of complaining about how your job has not kept pace with your needs, you should instead be putting that effort into improving your position.
--Patrick
--Patrick
People who are content to be low man on the totem pole and put no effort into improving their situation when they can shouldn't be complaining about the problems of their chosen lifestyle.
If they cannot improve their position, then there's a problem that needs to be addressed. But otherwise choosing to stay a fry cook and complaining that its hard to raise a family on a fry cooks income when one can improve their position but chooses not to is silly. Take responsibility for your success, or lack thereof.
We shouldn't be instead saying, "all fry cooks should be making $40k per year with full medical benefits."
And if we give everyone excellent jobs there will still be more jobs, because people who aspire to something greater will create jobs, not take them.
And there will still be plenty of youth and others who will fry our food for us, though I'd be happy if more of that was automated and everyone had a much better job.
But they have to want a better job first. And many of them don't want a better job, they just want more benefits and money for less work.
So we get fry cooks that can't raise their family in anything more than poverty.
I'm completely ignoring the people that do want something better and work to get it. That's a whole different problem, and it is a problem. I'm just talking about the people that have no desire to improve themselves, yet want to live the lifestyle of those that have put in the time and effort to do so.
If they cannot improve their position, then there's a problem that needs to be addressed. But otherwise choosing to stay a fry cook and complaining that its hard to raise a family on a fry cooks income when one can improve their position but chooses not to is silly. Take responsibility for your success, or lack thereof.
We shouldn't be instead saying, "all fry cooks should be making $40k per year with full medical benefits."
And if we give everyone excellent jobs there will still be more jobs, because people who aspire to something greater will create jobs, not take them.
And there will still be plenty of youth and others who will fry our food for us, though I'd be happy if more of that was automated and everyone had a much better job.
But they have to want a better job first. And many of them don't want a better job, they just want more benefits and money for less work.
So we get fry cooks that can't raise their family in anything more than poverty.
I'm completely ignoring the people that do want something better and work to get it. That's a whole different problem, and it is a problem. I'm just talking about the people that have no desire to improve themselves, yet want to live the lifestyle of those that have put in the time and effort to do so.
There's a whole heap of assumptions wrangled in a few broken down sentences right thar. So you're saying that working class people don't deserve access to affordable healthcare because their job title isn't important enough to warrant it? Is that it?
Try this assumption on for size: You sound like a well-to-do guy, who's probably worked really hard, but has never really had to struggle through poverty because he grew up in a nice, secure household with middle/upper class parents, and has had a lot more doors of opportunity open for him than someone who grew up in a ghetto. It's really easy to say "pull yourself from your bootstraps" when you've grown up in that kind of environment. I know, friend, I grew up in that kind of household. I don't doubt for a second that I didn't have more opportunity and a headstart over other people. They still deserve the same access to healthcare that I have.
Again, why was the WWII generation able to have menial factory jobs that paid a living wage and afford healthcare and raise a family on that single source of income? Why is that generation (and the GOP in general) constantly bitching about Millennials and Gen Xer's not reaching their potential when they never did. But they sure loves their social security and medicare benefits.
Yeah, but I'm talking about healthcare. Everyone deserves access to healthcare. It's pretty much what defines a modern civilized society, in my eyes.
Ooh, I love playing this game!
It sounds like you're saying I should receive free full healthcare without working, despite my obvious capability to do so. Not working is a choice that society should support without question.
It also sounds like you're saying that poor people are stupid, and will always be mentally incapable of aspiring to greater things, nevermind choosing a path that will take them there.
Yay! This is fun! Let's stop thinking critically about the other persons arguments, and boil them down to the extreme where its pointless discussing the issue!
It sounds like you're saying I should receive free full healthcare without working, despite my obvious capability to do so. Not working is a choice that society should support without question.
It also sounds like you're saying that poor people are stupid, and will always be mentally incapable of aspiring to greater things, nevermind choosing a path that will take them there.
Yay! This is fun! Let's stop thinking critically about the other persons arguments, and boil them down to the extreme where its pointless discussing the issue!
A fry cook is working...
I do like how you're completely skirting the issue because you know you're full of shit. I'm sorry, it just makes me angry that it seems like you're saying a person's job title should dictate what kind of health service they deserve. So a frycook breaks his leg. He doesn't deserve heatlhcare for his broken leg? He doesn't deserve disability? Because he didn't have the opportunities to make it further in life than a fry cook? So he should get evicted from his apartment? This is ok with you because, afterall, he's just a shitty, loser frycook?
I'm sorry that I'm having such a hard time expressing myself in a way that you understand. When you repeat what you think I'm saying, it's completely wrong.
I don't know of a better way to explain myself though, so I suppose I will just have to live with you misunderstanding my position.
Sorry to have angered you, it's certainly not my intention, and rather than risking further unhappiness I'll bow out now.
My brain says that this is evolution and that the human race would be better if all the osteoporotic, apathetic fry cook-type people kill themselves off.
My viscera say that even apathetic fry cooks deserve a chance at greatness, a chance to make something of themselves, a chance to be a somebody, instead of being a bum.
My gestalt supposes that which way I would ultimately lean would depend upon what I know/find out about him and his life.
FWIW, I believe that basic health care is but one of many "perks" that should be available to all citizens who are in good standing, so that people can go about their daily lives secure in the knowledge that, at a minimum, at least their most basic needs will be met. I also acknowledge that this would be a logistical nightmare, that funding such a program would be difficult at best, and that there would be people who would seek to abuse and/or pervert the system on both sides of the dole. In fact, I think it's that last one that would be the most difficult to guard against.
--Patrick
Why would it be a logistical nightmare? It's done all over Europe.
Sorry, I firmly believe in a right to healthcare is beneficial to everyone in a society, regardless of their "standing".
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