I have to pay taxes now; you're fired!

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I honestly think that what Gas is trying to say is that if you live within your means, then great. More power to you, happiness is what you make it, etc. But if you outgrow your income (or your health insurance, or whatever), then instead of complaining about how your job has not kept pace with your needs, you should instead be putting that effort into improving your position.

--Patrick
Oh yes, but in true GB style, he's also implying that putting in the effort is enough to actually get a better job...

Hence my comment.


My brain says that this is evolution and that the human race would be better if all the osteoporotic, apathetic fry cook-type people kill themselves off.
Except that's not how evolution works... if they're still alive and breeding then as far as evolution is concerned they deserve to be alive...

Also, limiting genetic variety has proven to not be a very good strategy, as it increases the chance of one disease wiping out the whole population... just ask banana's.
 
Except that's not how evolution works... if they're still alive and breeding then as far as evolution is concerned they deserve to be alive...

Also, limiting genetic variety has proven to not be a very good strategy, as it increases the chance of one disease wiping out the whole population... just ask banana's.
...or coffee.

And actually, that is how evolution (i.e., natural selection) works. If dude breaks his leg, and therefore can't support a family, then he is more of a failure and won't pass on his genes. What is called into question, however, is whether or not his genetic makeup is what was responsible for his being a failure, so it is imprecise. That's why evolution works best over a large population, so the "accidents" (i.e., bad luck events) only affect the an organism, and not the species.

--Patrick
 

GasBandit

Staff member
Well, I have a fundamental disagreement with Silent Bob in that I don't think healthcare is a fundamental right, and even if it were, having a right to something in the US doesn't mean somebody else pays for it for you - IE, I have a right to a gun, but that doesn't mean it's the government's (or anybody else's) responsibility to pay for it for me. Healthcare is a limited resource - if you are saying you are entitled to healthcare, you are saying you are entitled to someone else's time and money (the doctor's time, the money it takes to pay for it). This thinking is fundamentally anathema to the system which provided for America's prosperity and should be shunned whenever possible. (GB mode ON) This is the thinking of a dead weight parasite.

At any rate, Patrick is essentially correct about my primary assertion. Living within your means is great. I got no problem with the guy flipping burgers who isn't inseminating everything in sight.
Oh yes, but in true GB style, he's also implying that putting in the effort is enough to actually get a better job...
Contrary to socialist dogma, economics is not a zero sum game. There is no hard limit on "number of jobs" where everybody below that cutoff is just SOL. There is, however, something going on right now that is making employers extremely reluctant to hire - it's the rise to prevalence of the sort of thinking that says you should have all needs covered without being expected to do more than flip burgers, and the seeming willingness of those in power to pander to it.
 
And there will still be plenty of youth and others who will fry our food for us, though I'd be happy if more of that was automated and everyone had a much better job.
97 times out of 100 when dealing with a fast food joint other than Chick-fil-a I find myself longing for the day they figure out away to remove humans from the process. The service would be much more pleasant.
 
97 times out of 100 when dealing with a fast food joint other than Chick-fil-a I find myself longing for the day they figure out away to remove humans from the process. The service would be much more pleasant.
I believe you're looking for this article: http://www.businessinsider.com/burger-robot-could-revolutionize-fast-food-industry-2012-11

Business website: http://momentummachines.com/

360 burgers an hour. So one every 10 seconds. And supposedly GOOD ones too. Could be half-vaporware, but if not, then there ya go.
 
97 times out of 100 when dealing with a fast food joint other than Chick-fil-a I find myself longing for the day they figure out away to remove humans from the process. The service would be much more pleasant.
And the quality would be more consistent, too.

--Patrick
 
I can't wait for the rise in crime we're gonna get once all these burger flipping robots take over. Because that's what's going to happen once robots capable of replacing service industry people become available: People with no other options in life are going to riot... and without an immediate means of employing people, it's going to be a serious problem.
 
I can't wait for the rise in crime we're gonna get once all these burger flipping robots take over. Because that's what's going to happen once robots capable of replacing service industry people become available: People with no other options in life are going to riot... and without an immediate means of employing people, it's going to be a serious problem.
Survival of the fittest! If you're not a successful and rich, you must be an uninspired loser and deserve to die.



...except the whole point of civilization is compassion against the indifference of nature.
 
the whole point of civilization is compassion against the indifference of nature.
Citation required - this doesn't make sense. Perhaps it's an ideal? Basic anthropology stuff I've read certainly doesn't suggest that civilization is born of compassion.

Of course if you actually were an antitranscendentalist that would explain a lot of your perspective.
 
I can't wait for the rise in crime we're gonna get once all these burger flipping robots take over. Because that's what's going to happen once robots capable of replacing service industry people become available: People with no other options in life are going to riot... and without an immediate means of employing people, it's going to be a serious problem.
Just like those buggy whip manufacturers!
 
Basic anthropology stuff I've read certainly doesn't suggest that civilization is born of compassion.
At its core, I figure civilization was born of the necessity of divvying responsibilities. The same way that insurance divides risk up among many individuals, civilization ensures that no individual has to work as hard as he would on his own to achieve the same level of prosperity.

--Patrick
 
Contrary to socialist dogma, economics is not a zero sum game. There is no hard limit on "number of jobs" where everybody below that cutoff is just SOL. There is, however, something going on right now that is making employers extremely reluctant to hire - it's the rise to prevalence of the sort of thinking that says you should have all needs covered without being expected to do more than flip burgers, and the seeming willingness of those in power to pander to it.
Not being a zero sum game only implies that more jobs can be created, not that everyone can have a good job... (also, since, to teh best of our knowledge, the universe isn't infinite, it will eventually become a zero sum game, assuming our species still exists...)


Unless you're implying that we don't need any number of minimum wage profession can be done away with (well, at least until we get wiped out by a virulent disease from a "unexpectedly dirty" telephone) there will always be a need for burger flippers, and it's kinda hard to work while starving... and the companies paying them too little = other people have to put up the difference (see: tip scene from Reservoir Dogs - confused the hell out of me until i found out about tips and the USA).



something going on right now that is making employers extremely reluctant to hire
Clearly that's not anything related to the state of any economy, and a lack of demand, just employees asking too much of the poor companies.

Contrary to socialist dogma
[DOUBLEPOST=1360885319][/DOUBLEPOST]
Healthcare is a limited resource - if you are saying you are entitled to healthcare, you are saying you are entitled to someone else's time and money (the doctor's time, the money it takes to pay for it). This thinking is fundamentally anathema to the system which provided for America's prosperity and should be shunned whenever possible. (GB mode ON) This is the thinking of a dead weight parasite.
Jobs - not a zero sum game, healthcare - totally one...


Also, no advantage to having a healthy population whatsoever...

That's why evolution works best over a large population, so the "accidents" (i.e., bad luck events) only affect the an organism, and not the species.
Tell that to T-Rex*...

* disclaimer, i have no idea atm if they where even alive at the time the meteor struck, but i think i got my point across, evolution dont care bitches
 

GasBandit

Staff member
Not being a zero sum game only implies that more jobs can be created, not that everyone can have a good job... (also, since, to teh best of our knowledge, the universe isn't infinite, it will eventually become a zero sum game, assuming our species still exists...)
This has to be the grandest non sequitur I've seen in years. Good job. (see what I did there)



Unless you're implying that we don't need any number of minimum wage profession can be done away with (well, at least until we get wiped out by a virulent disease from a "unexpectedly dirty" telephone) there will always be a need for burger flippers, and it's kinda hard to work while starving... and the companies paying them too little = other people have to put up the difference (see: tip scene from Reservoir Dogs - confused the hell out of me until i found out about tips and the USA).
They tip the waitstaff, not the cooks. Anyway, if you're arguing that every single job ever should pay a living wage, I've got bad news for you - economics doesn't work that way. Yes we "need" burger flippers and always will, but the level of our need is vastly dwarfed by the number of qualified applicants - it is, after all, a low skill, low intensity job that requires minimal training. Thus, supply and demand sets the wage low. Nobody should expect to raise kids on minimum wage - even its proponents acknowledge minimum wage isn't there to make sure everybody can raise kids. Otherwise, the minimum wage would be $20/hr.


Jobs - not a zero sum game, healthcare - totally one...
Actually, once you strip out the sarcasm, that is a correct statement. It is much faster, easier and less expensive to create (or find) average employment than it is to train a doctor.

I really feel like I'm having to condescend to teaching you basic principles of economics here, and frankly, I don't have time to coax you gently through ECON101.


Also, no advantage to having a healthy population whatsoever...
Contrary to leftist histrionics, Americans were not dropping dead in great swaths in the street prior to 2007. Our health care system may not have been perfect (and it is less so now, obviously), but it was the driving force behind medical advancement in the world. The impetus for the current boondoggle was largely manufactured out of whole cloth in an attempt to force centralization for dogmatic motivations, not to actually improve the system.
 
Tell that to T-Rex*...

* disclaimer, i have no idea atm if they where even alive at the time the meteor struck, but i think i got my point across, evolution dont care bitches
A most unusual/rare event, and an outside one, at that. Certainly nothing you could plan for.

--Patrick
 
This has to be the grandest non sequitur I've seen in years. Good job. (see what I did there)
It's only one if you ignore my original complaint about your argument and the implications it has that you always ignore for idealogical reasons.



They tip the waitstaff, not the cooks.
Don't the tips get spread out amongst employees, or am i confusing that with someplace else...

Anyhow, that's beside the point i was trying to makes, aka in the end people still need to make enough money to live, in that case it's the customer that pays their part of their wages directly.

Anyway, if you're arguing that every single job ever should pay a living wage, I've got bad news for you - economics doesn't work that way. Yes we "need" burger flippers and always will, but the level of our need is vastly dwarfed by the number of qualified applicants - it is, after all, a low skill, low intensity job that requires minimal training. Thus, supply and demand sets the wage low.
Sure, economics by itself doesn't, but that hardly means it's an ideal situation...

I mean look, there's a good argument to be made that the black plague helped jump start capitalism by limiting the supply of workers and forcing employers to pay more... google it, there's plenty of stuff about it.

Hell, that's the whole point of minimum wage, the fact that economics cares about people starving while working a full job as much as evolution does...


Also, the definition of living wage aka subsistence wage means that unless those people you where complaining about are starving/homeless etc they do make one (or have other sources of income, over here ppl just steal stuff, it's totaly working out awesome).

Nobody should expect to raise kids on minimum wage - even its proponents acknowledge minimum wage isn't there to make sure everybody can raise kids. Otherwise, the minimum wage would be $20/hr.
And that's why i said the world is more fair with people that do what you said at the start, then it would be with everyone being 100% committed to bettering themselves or whatever...

But clearly people are raising kids on minimum wage if they can complain about it to you instead of crying about their kids dying of starvation...



Actually, once you strip out the sarcasm, that is a correct statement. It is much faster, easier and less expensive to create (or find) average employment than it is to train a doctor.
Yeah, that still doesn't make it a zero sum game...

Plus, there's plenty of things one could do for healthcare that doesn't require a new doctor (it's not like you have less, especially since a lot of foreign ones come to the US because there's more money to be made there).


I really feel like I'm having to condescend to teaching you basic principles of economics here, and frankly, I don't have time to coax you gently through ECON101.
You know, there's a reason why high school econ doesn't make one an economist... and also why econ isn't as hard a science as math etc.

Contrary to leftist histrionics, Americans were not dropping dead in great swaths in the street prior to 2007. Our health care system may not have been perfect (and it is less so now, obviously), but it was the driving force behind medical advancement in the world. The impetus for the current boondoggle was largely manufactured out of whole cloth in an attempt to force centralization for dogmatic motivations, not to actually improve the system.
No, healthcare wasn't/isn't the reason for the fact that the US is the driving force behind medical advancement, the fact that you pay your doctors more was/is...

And you're right, people weren't dropping dead in the streets, they where just going bankrupt...




A most unusual/rare event, and an outside one, at that. Certainly nothing you could plan for.

--Patrick

New dominant species is able to imagine this:


Coincidence?!
 

GasBandit

Staff member
Trying to abbreviate the text wall:

1) Your "point" was beneath addressing as it was positively submoronic
2) Sometimes waiters split tips with bussers, but that's never been the case for cooks that I've heard of. Secondly, if your job doesn't pay you enough money then you improve yourself and get a better job. If you honestly expect anybody should make 35k+ a year bussing tables then you're absolutely divorced from reality.
3) Those people are idiots, which is my point.
4) They are a limited resource. And they're getting even more limited as many are now just deciding it's not worth it any more and closing up shop. But don't worry about us, we just made it illegal to not have health insurance. I'm sure that will help all those people who couldn't afford health insurance. :rolleyes:
5) This response was devoid of content.
6) Your first point is irrelevant and unrelated, your second point is another example of the manufactured "crisis" blown out of proportion. Yes, it happened, no it was not as rampant as depicted.
 
1) Your "point" was beneath addressing as it was positively submoronic
Man, now i really want to know what you though what my original post said...

2) Secondly, if your job doesn't pay you enough money then you improve yourself and get a better job.
And once again you're back to the original argument about the availability of better jobs and how someone has to do the crappy jobs too.

Hey look, there's even an official name for your reasoning: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis



3) Those people are idiots, which is my point.

And yet without idiots there wouldn't be enough workers to go around...

Ok, to make it clear, my rebuttal was that it wouldn't make that much difference if they weren't...


4) They are a limited resource. And they're getting even more limited as many are now just deciding it's not worth it any more and closing up shop. :rolleyes:

Talking about econ101... pretty sure the only "unlimited" resources are air and maybe water (depending on region)...


And no one is actually deciding it's not worth it based on their feeling that they're paying people too much... and if some businesses can't afford to pay people enough for them to live they will close down eventually anyway once their employees starve (if we're doing econ 101 i can simplify it too).


But don't worry about us, we just made it illegal to not have health insurance. I'm sure that will help all those people who couldn't afford health insurance.
While no one was particularly happy with the "compromise" the fact still remains that 20 people each pay less when sharing the cost of something then 10 people sharing the cost for the same thing. Hell,even 20 people getting something that's 9$ pay less then 10 people getting something that's 5$...



5) This response was devoid of content.
You know, just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it has no meaning... see your point 3. :p


6) Your first point is irrelevant and unrelated, your second point is another example of the manufactured "crisis" blown out of proportion. Yes, it happened, no it was not as rampant as depicted.
So what % of it happening is acceptable?


Because i don't actually have any problem with you complaining about how they went about trying to solve the problem,
 
If you honestly expect anybody should make 35k+ a year bussing tables then you're absolutely divorced from reality.
Meh. It just means more robots and fewer unskilled positions. Those that are unable to become skilled at and gain a job that's actually worth minimum wage will live on the public dole, like they do in other countries where 20% unemployment is considered low. Your burger will still only cost $1, but it will be made on demand by a machine rather than a high school student.
 
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