Syria, isolationism, and world police?

Necronic

Staff member
God damn Gasbandit how did you find that.

True. Most who signed it either A) Weren't bound by any targets to begin with, or B) Were below them already due to economic collapse (Eastern Europe). So not exactly what I meant, but you get the idea.
I just meant that US refused to ratify it because they knew they couldn't follow it.
 
Syria is a major financier for jihadist. There is just a new group of jihadist in town, that does not owe them allegiance.
Syria has a history of sponsoring Palestinian and Lebanese insurgents, and some other local flavor. This may be a degree different from a state where the extremists are in power. The reasons for the support have been mostly geopolitical; the Baathist government of Syria has come down hard on islamism in the past, and are hostile towards Al Qaeda.
We should do a bit more researchabout what the US military has done in other countries when "helping". More innocent children will die because of this, it has happened before because that's not really what matters the most to the US government. As @Shakey said: "We have a shitty track record in that area, and I seriously doubt this will be any different." The "US world police" is a very corrupt one.
I would assume the vast majority of people who become casualties of war did not deserve to die or get hurt. But I guess it's all about working towards an omelette that, in the end, was worth breaking the eggs for.
In other news, many left and European sources were saying that this might be an attack launched by the rebels to draw in the US (as has been stated in this thread). Now Rasmussen (secretary-general of NATO) has come out and said he's seen definite and absolute proof it was the regime.
At this point, most of the indicators do point towards government forces beingresponsible for the chemical weapons attack. Though it is possible the regime itself did not order it; things can get a bit confused in a civil war. While Hafez had an iron grip on the military, Bashar has never been able to establish anywhere near the same kind of hold as the old man. Assad does not seem to have much to gain from a chemical weapons attack, but a rival clique within the military who'd like to see Assad go certainly might. Could have been a rogue op.
The rebels are WAY worse than Assad.
Pretty much. It didn't start out that way, the rebellion was quite secular in the beginning. But then the extremists started getting outside funding and weapons, while the moderates received cautious encouragement. As a result, the extremists have been in the lead for a good while now, and the moderate elements have been marginalized to insignificance.
1) Easier said than done (we don't have enough good intelligence to do this well, nevermind completely)
2) Problematic as physical destruction of such facilities may result in huge plumes of toxins floating around for some time after the destruction.
Yeah, pretty much.
 
At this point, most of the indicators do point towards government forces beingresponsible for the chemical weapons attack.
Even if they didn't order the attack from the top, the weapons were most likely created and stockpiled by them. Merely by making and storing them for future use you are culpable when they are used, by your order or not.
 
Even if they didn't order the attack from the top, the weapons were most likely created and stockpiled by them. Merely by making and storing them for future use you are culpable when they are used, by your order or not.
In a legal sense, wouldn't it be treated as a war crime? I imagine it becomes a question of command responsibility, and not necessarily one of manufacturing and storage.
 
Ok, having read through this entire thread, I have now come to the conclusion that nuking the site from orbit is the only option we have remaining.
 
It would also put a huge damper on world oil prices, because irradiated fuel reserves are no good to anyone.
 
Right just think of all the money the Middle East would make if you built a super highway, rail route that would connect India and China to Turkey.
 
Maybe Clinton can tell Obama how to bomb places that have "chemical weapons" and are totally not medical factories that are desperately needed in their area. And it helps if the bombing is meant to distract away from someone giving you a hummer.
 
Maybe Clinton can tell Obama how to bomb places that have "chemical weapons" and are totally not medical factories that are desperately needed in their area. And it helps if the bombing is meant to distract away from someone giving you a hummer.
...and Bin Laden was a swell fella too.
 
In a legal sense, wouldn't it be treated as a war crime? I imagine it becomes a question of command responsibility, and not necessarily one of manufacturing and storage.
Careful there. That would mean the US, being the world's biggest stockpiler of nuclear, chemical AND biological weapons would be in the wrong too. So, no, clearly and obviously, having ABC weapons isn't necessarily wrong, as long as you're keeping them "safe" and "just in case" or something ;)
 
Careful there. That would mean the US, being the world's biggest stockpiler of nuclear, chemical AND biological weapons would be in the wrong too. So, no, clearly and obviously, having ABC weapons isn't necessarily wrong, as long as you're keeping them "safe" and "just in case" or something ;)
Patently false. Russia has more Nukes, and we have burned up our chemical stockpiles. We never had weaponized biological weapons. We do keep and study the most popular biological agents so we will know how to treat the victims of such an attack.
 
Which would be enough to be punished according to what TommiR said.
Actually, I said (or at least meant) the exact opposite. Manufacture and storage of chemical weapons is not enough IMHO to incur culpability for their use. The use of chemical weapons would likely constitute a war crime, and if the leaders were held responsibile, it would likely be happen according to the principle of command responsibility.

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Isn't there growing international pressure to explicitly add napalm, depleted uranium, and white phosphorous use of any kind (we've always maintained that WP as an incendiary weapon is a warcrime, but using it to mark targets is okay) to the CWC?
 

Necronic

Staff member
Maybe Clinton can tell Obama how to bomb places that have "chemical weapons" and are totally not medical factories that are desperately needed in their area. And it helps if the bombing is meant to distract away from someone giving you a hummer.
I'm not really sure how many people knew about this. I don't think it was the same level of news that the Syria thing is.

I remember a (relatively) recent interview on Democracy Now with the General in command of that strike. He had an interesting response. His take was that, based on the intel they had at the time, it was the right call. You don't get to go back in time. He was pretty clearly unrepentant. Amy Goodwin couldn't really accept that. Interview went in circles for like 30 minutes.
 
Not directly, no. But if we support one side of the syrian conflict, and they support the other side, then indirectly, yes.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
Soo... Are we about to go to war with Russia or something?
No, I think it would be more accurate to say Russia is about to send more guns, bombs and tanks to the regime we're about to bomb, if we bomb them. Which might mean more bombing, which might mean more Russian arms. And they might throw in Iran as a two-fer on the arms.
 
I'm not really sure how many people knew about this. I don't think it was the same level of news that the Syria thing is.

I remember a (relatively) recent interview on Democracy Now with the General in command of that strike. He had an interesting response. His take was that, based on the intel they had at the time, it was the right call. You don't get to go back in time. He was pretty clearly unrepentant. Amy Goodwin couldn't really accept that. Interview went in circles for like 30 minutes.
Hitchens would beg to differ with that general. I don't have the book on hand where he talks about it but here's a review of that portion:

Hitchens discusses the El Shifa Pharmaceutical Industries Company bombing affair. On 20 August 1998, Clinton ordered the destruction of the gigantic pharmaceutical factory in Sudan; that factory produces 60% of the medicines for the country. ‘Many more have died, and will die, because an impoverished country has lost its chief source of medicines and pesticides’ (91). The Clinton administration – obviously not wanting to take responsibility for the deaths of tens of thousands of people who needed those medicines – made the claim that that factory was actually a weapons production facility for Osama bin Laden and his corporate Saudi clique (89). Hitchens, in expert detail, exposes that assertion to be a complete lie, showing that there had never been any evidence of bin Laden money or chemical weapons production at the factory… and, in fact, it would have impossible for any to ever have been there.
 
Bottom line: we have no idea who to support here; we've got a better than 50% chance of backing the wrong side; and we could also end up getting into a proxy war with the Russians.

I'm sorry, but Pass.
 
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